| Electronics > Projects, Designs, and Technical Stuff |
| Oscilloscope ASIC Kickstarter instead of Open scope. |
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| ebclr:
"(AMD pays less than $13 for a CPU made on the MOST expensive node while this will be one of the cheapest. A qty discount can only go so far since there are still set costs such as materials and EUV is very slow)" Once upon a time, somebody charges a customer 250 USD dollars to fix a device with only a 0.01C broke resistor, The customer complains, the resistor is only 0.01 C and you are charging me 250 USD? The technician said, no resistor is only 0.01C I'm charging you 249,99USD, for my years of study and experience to know with one is the resistor who is broken Regarding the dream to make the SOC, will not happen with 1 Million dollars you can buy 1111 Rigols, I doubt you will find 2000 interested in pay this amount for a chip, It's a dream, Will be easier to bring this million-dollar to Rigol and make a proposal for a open-source firmware version of the product, where all the hardware is open-sourced, at a 30% discount for the ones on kickstart, with the soc they already paid, Still a dream but a more viable one |
| wraper:
--- Quote from: excitedbox on January 10, 2020, 12:20:10 am ---2. Manufacturing costs are tiny in comparison. (AMD pays less than $13 for a CPU made on the MOST expensive node while this will be one of the cheapest. A qty discount can only go so far since there are still set costs such as materials and EUV is very slow) --- End quote --- Do you really believe that? If that was true, they would sit on piles of money instead of going towards bankrupt before releasing Ryzen. Such price is valid only for their outdated low end CPUs on old node. |
| excitedbox:
--- Quote from: unitedatoms on January 10, 2020, 01:34:41 am --- Edit: @excitedbox. I think there is nothing negative in this thread. The idea alone is very novel and disruptive. Speaking of shooting from hip. Which is also good. Internet is fast place. --- End quote --- Thanks for the reply you brought up some good points. The hard part with an Oscilloscope is getting the data into memory after that it becomes a lot easier. All these open source scopes would be a lot better if they had access to an asic like this. The Analog Discovery 2 for instance is a cool device but sadly they are limited in speed by their capture speed. A project like that with a faster signal capture would be very disruptive to the market. The negativity I refer to is the stuff below that I am answering for the 8th time now. The one guy brings up a $900 and in his next post claims no manufacturer could afford to sell a scope for that price. --- Quote from: thm_w on January 10, 2020, 12:50:10 am ---Sorry but I don't care what the upgrade costs, its not relevant to me. Publishing a binary patch is not piracy and has not been shown to be illegal, as far as I know. I disagree that any budget manufacturer can give you a 4-ch 450MHz 8GSPS scope for $900 without losing their shirts. --- End quote --- It is illegal because that binary patch is circumventing the DRM to enable software that you do not have a license to use. This is what the whole right to repair fight in the US is about. There is a guy sitting in jail right now for giving away free copies of windows that could be downloaded from the microsoft website WITHOUT a license key for people to use with their OWN license. If you download a free trial of photoshop and crack the license key it is clearly illegal. That is exactly what you are doing when you hack your scope. I don´t care about that though. Rigol already sells the MSO5000 for that price, YOU brought that up. The hardware cost to them is no different whether you upgrade it or not. The parts are in the device when you buy it for 900 and then you buy an upgrade code for each feature that you want on top of that. They have reduced the price slightly recently for some of the upgrades but this scope is very attractive to the hobby market who is unlikely to upgrade and will sooner hack the license. And again the price will come down using an ASIC. --- Quote from: ebclr on January 10, 2020, 02:30:05 am --- Regarding the dream to make the SOC, will not happen with 1 Million dollars you can buy 1111 Rigols, I doubt you will find 2000 interested in pay this amount for a chip, It's a dream, Will be easier to bring this million-dollar to Rigol and make a proposal for a open-source firmware version of the product, where all the hardware is open-sourced, at a 30% discount for the ones on kickstart, with the soc they already paid, Still a dream but a more viable one --- End quote --- Again I already said that getting 2000 people to donate $200 is not the plan (I even clarified that in a note just for you) it was a hypothetical. Please read the thread before posting irrelevant stuff that everyone that does read has to waste their time on. The big cost for designing a Keysight ASIC compared to this is also that they build from the ground up instead of using IP blocks. Using IP blocks is like using chips but smaller. You don´t design every op amp circuit either you buy an op amp and call it a day. There are IP blocks for fast ADCs and everything else needed available. There is a software suit called Magick that is open source for designing chips. --- Quote from: wraper on January 10, 2020, 02:37:41 am --- --- Quote from: excitedbox on January 10, 2020, 12:20:10 am ---2. Manufacturing costs are tiny in comparison. (AMD pays less than $13 for a CPU made on the MOST expensive node while this will be one of the cheapest. A qty discount can only go so far since there are still set costs such as materials and EUV is very slow) --- End quote --- Do you really believe that? If that was true, they would sit on piles of money instead of going towards bankrupt before releasing Ryzen. Such price is valid only for their outdated low end CPUs on old node. --- End quote --- No, those prices are for their 12nm node which are much more expensive and these asics would be made on much older nodes anyway due to the higher voltages and cost savings. At the smallest 45nm but I am assuming either 65nm or even larger. That would have to be determined. Again though please don´t make statements without informing yourself first. A quick google would have saved me that answer. AMD was no going bankrupt because of the costs of manufacturing chips. Up until 2012 Intel was paying Dell up to $1.2 billion a year not to use AMD chips. Along with every other OEM. AMD tried gifting HP 1 million CPUs FOR FREE and they refused to take them because Intel would punish them by cutting off their bribes. In addition Intel who is a major supplier of compilers kneecaped AMD CPUs by having their compilers use slower instruction sets if you had an AMD CPU this made peple think AMD CPUs were worse than Intel. Here is a video that will explain the anti consumer BS Intel has done since 1982. |
| tautech:
--- Quote from: excitedbox on January 09, 2020, 10:04:10 pm --- --- Quote from: tautech on January 09, 2020, 09:13:05 pm --- --- Quote from: excitedbox on January 09, 2020, 08:06:28 pm --- ....................... If we make a chip for up to 1Ghz and 4-5Gsps using interleaving on 1 channel that would bring the cost of the scopes used by over 50% of the market down to something affordable. ................ --- End quote --- Happening already: https://siglentna.com/product/sds5104x-1-ghz-4-ch/ --- End quote --- I don't see 7k as affordable. Although it is great to see prices coming down. --- End quote --- As others have attempted to point out, this 1 GHz 5 GSa/s HW is the same as used in 350 MHz models for some $ 3570 and the same promo including all 7 options for free is effectively a $2k further saving. Do the sums, 1 GHz, 5 GSa's HW and options for what amounts to $ 1570 :o --- Quote ---That just proves the points I have been making though. 1 siglent is a budget brand. 2 they were selling all those upgrades for over 2k before even though you already had the hardware. --- End quote --- :-// Do you imply other brands don't/won't do promotions ? --- Quote ---3. Why can Feelelec give you a signal generator where the HW + Software costs 1/5th as much as their software upgrade. Why can the DreamLabs sell you a logic analyzer for $80 with the HW and Software and they charge several hundred for just the software upgrade. --- End quote --- Just one word; support ! --- Quote ---The Rigol 4000 or 5000 I forget which one, costs $900 for the base model but over $4000 with all upgrades. That means it contains under $500 worth of parts. Is it really justified to charge almost 1000% for the software that has no repeat cost associated with it? --- End quote --- All brands are guilty of this. Period. If the true cost of options was factored into pricing all equipment would be somewhat dearer and we wouldn't have the pricing structures we have today. For some time manufacturers have been cramming additional capability into equipment that few of us will ever use let alone want however such is the capability of modern gear now this results in less equipment on the bench albeit also for less cost. |
| tautech:
--- Quote from: excitedbox on January 09, 2020, 10:31:31 pm ---That is why we need industry support. Hantek, MCH, Siglent, Picoscope, Voltcraft. Developing their own Asic might be out of the range of each of them individually but if they each only have to put up 5-10% they might be willing to invest. They would be the ones benefiting the most from it in the end and in the grand scheme of things is 50k no that much to invest in the future of their business. You have to remember that all their competitors now have their own chips so they are falling behind. --- End quote --- Can you really see marketplace competitors in some alliance developing an ASIC that they each will use ? I have my doubts but good luck. :) |
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