Author Topic: Oscilloscope pong for 1 or 2 players.  (Read 140841 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

GK

• Super Contributor
• Posts: 2607
• Country:
Re: Oscilloscope pong for 1 or 2 players.
« Reply #125 on: March 26, 2017, 12:22:20 pm »
Looking, good...... just had a quick peek before going to bed. A few omissions immediately evident:

1) The 100uF tant. in the velocity integrator schematic really needs a voltage rating greater than the positive supply rail.
2) In the Ball Vertical Movement circuit the current limiting resistor in series with the relay contacts is missing. That 1uF will weld the reed relay's contacts without it.
3) Not a big deal, but the waveform highlighted in the Sounds Effects circuit is a squarewave rather than a triangle wave.

In the simplified Reference Regulator equivalent circuit I omitted the source impedance balancing resistor between the zener and the op-amp positive input.

Now I'm off to bed.
Bzzzzt. No longer care, over this forum shit.........ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

timb

• Super Contributor
• Posts: 2528
• Country:
• Pretentiously Posting Polysyllabic Prose
Oscilloscope pong for 1 or 2 players.
« Reply #126 on: March 26, 2017, 12:39:47 pm »
Looking, good...... just had a quick peek before going to bed. A few omissions immediately evident:

1) The 100uF tant. in the velocity integrator schematic really needs a voltage rating greater than the positive supply rail.
2) In the Ball Vertical Movement circuit the current limiting resistor in series with the relay contacts is missing. That 1uF will weld the reed relay's contacts without it.
3) Not a big deal, but the waveform highlighted in the Sounds Effects circuit is a squarewave rather than a triangle wave.

In the simplified Reference Regulator equivalent circuit I omitted the source impedance balancing resistor between the zener and the op-amp positive input.

Now I'm off to bed.

1) I meant to ask about this. Initially I was thinking the voltage might not rise much past a diode drop above ground, but after thinking about it I can see a mode where it could rise to the upper rail.  I was trying to save a bit of space with a smaller tantalum. I'll change it.

2) I don't know how I missed that. Thanks!

3) Okay, it looked very squiggly to me in the schematic. I was thinking that node *should* be a square wave, but the drawing looked more like a very fast rise/fall triangle or something, so I thought maybe I'd missed something in my understanding of the implementation. I guess I didn't.

4) Ah yeah, I should have caught that too. I did that right before exporting it as a PDF.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.

mmagin

• Frequent Contributor
• Posts: 612
• Country:
Re: Oscilloscope pong for 1 or 2 players.
« Reply #127 on: March 27, 2017, 01:01:41 am »
I'd be quite grateful to anyone who designs a board.

What kind of frequency response does this require?  If it's sub-200 KHz, I have a good excuse to restore an antique 1940s portable oscilloscope.

GK

• Super Contributor
• Posts: 2607
• Country:
Re: Oscilloscope pong for 1 or 2 players.
« Reply #128 on: March 27, 2017, 08:17:25 am »
I'd be quite grateful to anyone who designs a board.

What kind of frequency response does this require?  If it's sub-200 KHz, I have a good excuse to restore an antique 1940s portable oscilloscope.

200 KHz should be OK, but the x & y amplifiers need to be DC-coupled (have never seen an example at that vintage) and a suitable Z intensity modulation input is highly desirable.
Bzzzzt. No longer care, over this forum shit.........ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

timb

• Super Contributor
• Posts: 2528
• Country:
• Pretentiously Posting Polysyllabic Prose
Oscilloscope pong for 1 or 2 players.
« Reply #129 on: March 27, 2017, 10:28:07 am »
Okay, updated the schematic with GK's issues from this morning; now includes the full schematic and BOM!

http://timb.us/PDF/Scope_Pong_20170327.pdf

Edit: Whoops, I just realized that a couple of the transistors on the Horiz. & Vert. Deflection sheet are the SMD versions instead of the correct TH variety. Ignore that in the BOM, they are supposed to be the TO-92 variant and I simply picked the wrong ones when capturing that portion of the schematic.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 11:05:10 am by timb »
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.

The following users thanked this post: MK14, BrianHG

MK14

• Super Contributor
• Posts: 2579
• Country:
Re: Oscilloscope pong for 1 or 2 players.
« Reply #130 on: March 27, 2017, 03:22:18 pm »
I've only had a somewhat quick look, for now.

I love the way you have put the op-amp equivalent circuit, in the schematic, that is really nice and helpful!

Should the (power supply) voltage regulation circuits be in that schematic (or have I missed them and they are there ?), or are they on another sheet or something ?

mmagin

• Frequent Contributor
• Posts: 612
• Country:
Re: Oscilloscope pong for 1 or 2 players.
« Reply #131 on: March 27, 2017, 05:49:27 pm »
I'd be quite grateful to anyone who designs a board.

What kind of frequency response does this require?  If it's sub-200 KHz, I have a good excuse to restore an antique 1940s portable oscilloscope.

200 KHz should be OK, but the x & y amplifiers need to be DC-coupled (have never seen an example at that vintage) and a suitable Z intensity modulation input is highly desirable.

Surprisingly the scope (Waterman Pocketscope S-11-A) in question seems to have DC coupled X and Y inputs.  Might have to do something clever to give it an intensity input though via modulating the control grid.   Anyway, that's all after recapping and cleaning.

timb

• Super Contributor
• Posts: 2528
• Country:
• Pretentiously Posting Polysyllabic Prose
Re: Oscilloscope pong for 1 or 2 players.
« Reply #132 on: March 27, 2017, 07:09:50 pm »
I've only had a somewhat quick look, for now.

I love the way you have put the op-amp equivalent circuit, in the schematic, that is really nice and helpful!

Should the (power supply) voltage regulation circuits be in that schematic (or have I missed them and they are there ?), or are they on another sheet or something ?

GK did that in his hand drawn schematic, but I'd eventually like to go back and put down equivalent circuits for the rest of the schematics. There are more op amps, flip flops, monostable timers, etc. hidden away and I think it would be a great way to show people how they're made.

I'm still working out a couple of things with the power supply, so it's not in there yet. I'll upload a new schematic when it's ready.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.

The following users thanked this post: MK14

bitseeker

• Super Contributor
• Posts: 8596
• Country:
• Lots of engineer-tweakable parts inside!
Re: Oscilloscope pong for 1 or 2 players.
« Reply #133 on: March 27, 2017, 07:15:31 pm »
GK did that in his hand drawn schematic, but I'd eventually like to go back and put down equivalent circuits for the rest of the schematics. There are more op amps, flip flops, monostable timers, etc. hidden away and I think it would be a great way to show people how they're made.

I really like them, too. Great feature, Tim.

Speaking of which, for the one on the first page, "Equivilent" -> "Equivalent".
I TEA.

timb

• Super Contributor
• Posts: 2528
• Country:
• Pretentiously Posting Polysyllabic Prose
Oscilloscope pong for 1 or 2 players.
« Reply #134 on: March 27, 2017, 07:23:19 pm »
GK did that in his hand drawn schematic, but I'd eventually like to go back and put down equivalent circuits for the rest of the schematics. There are more op amps, flip flops, monostable timers, etc. hidden away and I think it would be a great way to show people how they're made.

I really like them, too. Great feature, Tim.

Speaking of which, for the one on the first page, "Equivilent" -> "Equivalent".

Thanks! 15 years of OS X's built-in spell check have made me lazy; if I don't see a squiggly red line (which obviously Windows 7 doesn't have) I assume it's correct.

I found another one earlier: On the Player 1 push button, I assume we want to "Serve" the ball, not "Sever" them! XD
« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 07:25:58 pm by timb »
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.

BrianHG

• Super Contributor
• Posts: 4000
• Country:
Re: Oscilloscope pong for 1 or 2 players.
« Reply #135 on: March 27, 2017, 07:44:29 pm »
Timb, I found an open wire on your schematic, see attached photo.
Question: You also have numerous slightly mis-positioned junctions at wired 'T' joints, I assume these are ok?
« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 07:58:21 pm by BrianHG »
__________
BrianHG.

bitseeker

• Super Contributor
• Posts: 8596
• Country:
• Lots of engineer-tweakable parts inside!
Re: Oscilloscope pong for 1 or 2 players.
« Reply #136 on: March 27, 2017, 08:25:53 pm »
I found another one earlier: On the Player 1 push button, I assume we want to "Serve" the ball, not "Sever" them! XD

Yes. "Sever" might be more along the lines of Fruit Ninja.
I TEA.

timb

• Super Contributor
• Posts: 2528
• Country:
• Pretentiously Posting Polysyllabic Prose
Oscilloscope pong for 1 or 2 players.
« Reply #137 on: March 27, 2017, 10:11:30 pm »
Timb, I found an open wire on your schematic, see attached photo.
Question: You also have numerous slightly mis-positioned junctions at wired 'T' joints, I assume these are ok?

Ah, good catch! Thanks.

Can you elaborate on the mis-positioned junctions? I'm not sure I see what you mean.

Edit: I think I see what you mean. Like C504 and R502 and in this picture?

They're connected properly, but for whatever reason the connection dot is off center (I might have pushed the wires and the dot just messed up.)

I've just gone through and noted all the ones I could find, I'll fix it tonight.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 10:39:28 pm by timb »
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.

The following users thanked this post: MK14, BrianHG

timb

• Super Contributor
• Posts: 2528
• Country:
• Pretentiously Posting Polysyllabic Prose
Re: Oscilloscope pong for 1 or 2 players.
« Reply #138 on: March 27, 2017, 10:44:40 pm »
Oh yeah, something else: Any wires shown in orange are off-board connections that terminate to the board in a terminal block. Hopefully that was clear.

There's no provision in DipTrace for that sort of thing, so I made several components (pots, a push button switch and a rotary switch) that didn't have any pin connections, that way they would show up on the BOM. I then proceeded to manually draw the wires out (in orange) showing the connections to the terminal blocks.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.

The following users thanked this post: MK14

BrianHG

• Super Contributor
• Posts: 4000
• Country:
Re: Oscilloscope pong for 1 or 2 players.
« Reply #139 on: March 28, 2017, 12:24:54 am »
If those are connected, then everything else looks fine...
__________
BrianHG.

BrianHG

• Super Contributor
• Posts: 4000
• Country:
Re: Oscilloscope pong for 1 or 2 players.
« Reply #140 on: March 28, 2017, 02:39:07 am »
Timb, you forgot to label the Z axis output connector and will you be providing an optional inverted Z axis output?  It would only require an additional transistor and 3 resistors.
__________
BrianHG.

GK

• Super Contributor
• Posts: 2607
• Country:
Re: Oscilloscope pong for 1 or 2 players.
« Reply #141 on: March 28, 2017, 08:56:57 am »
Alternatively you can just add a jumper to select either the flip-flops Q or !Q.
Bzzzzt. No longer care, over this forum shit.........ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

GK

• Super Contributor
• Posts: 2607
• Country:
Re: Oscilloscope pong for 1 or 2 players.
« Reply #142 on: March 28, 2017, 09:01:32 am »
I've only had a somewhat quick look, for now.

I love the way you have put the op-amp equivalent circuit, in the schematic, that is really nice and helpful!

Should the (power supply) voltage regulation circuits be in that schematic (or have I missed them and they are there ?), or are they on another sheet or something ?

GK did that in his hand drawn schematic, but I'd eventually like to go back and put down equivalent circuits for the rest of the schematics. There are more op amps, flip flops, monostable timers, etc. hidden away and I think it would be a great way to show people how they're made.

This is what I am currently working on and all pages/diagrams will eventually get collated into a single PDF document. Attached is the equiv. diagram of the sounds effects circuit:

Bzzzzt. No longer care, over this forum shit.........ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

GK

• Super Contributor
• Posts: 2607
• Country:
Re: Oscilloscope pong for 1 or 2 players.
« Reply #143 on: March 28, 2017, 09:10:59 am »
Incidentally, I have since noticed a (nearly inconsequential) error in the sound effects circuit. In the posted video you'll notice that the higher pitched beep (1200 Hz) occurs when the ball hits a paddle while the lower pitched beep (600 Hz) occurs when the ball hits a boundary.

In my original circuit diagram I've got the 1200 Hz and the 600 Hz swapped around, which would cause the opposite to happen.
Bzzzzt. No longer care, over this forum shit.........ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

timb

• Super Contributor
• Posts: 2528
• Country:
• Pretentiously Posting Polysyllabic Prose
Oscilloscope pong for 1 or 2 players.
« Reply #144 on: March 28, 2017, 09:43:03 am »
If those are connected, then everything else looks fine...
I went ahead and fixed them anyway. Turns out it's some sort of issue with how the nodes were reproduced when I copied/pasted various circuit blocks. (There's a lot of repeated circuit blocks, so it saves time to do it that way.)

Alternatively you can just add a jumper to select either the flip-flops Q or !Q.

I was considering tapping off the other side of the flip-flop but wanted to run it by you.

Timb, you forgot to label the Z axis output connector and will you be providing an optional inverted Z axis output?  It would only require an additional transistor and 3 resistors.

The labeling is fixed in tonight's version. The Z-axis Inv will be added in the next version.

This is what I am currently working on and all pages/diagrams will eventually get collated into a single PDF document. Attached is the equiv. diagram of the sounds effects circuit:

Wow, that looks great! Feel free to share as you go along and I'll move it over to the digital schematic as well.

Okay, here's tonight's version of the schematic:

http://timb.us/PDF/Scope_Pong_20170328.pdf

Changes:
Fixed connection between C606 and R640.
Fixed wire junctions. (I think I got these all, please point out any wires that connect without an appropriate (or shifted) callout.)
Changed polarized cap symbols.
Removed polarization symbol from bi-polar AE capacitor components.
Removed polarization sign silkscreen from bi-polar AE capacitor patterns.
Added part numbers and manufacturers to all items but ceramic caps and resistors in the BOM.
Added labeling per GK's schematic.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 07:32:20 pm by timb »
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.

GK

• Super Contributor
• Posts: 2607
• Country:
Re: Oscilloscope pong for 1 or 2 players.
« Reply #145 on: March 28, 2017, 11:03:28 am »
Wow, that looks great! Feel free to share as you go along and I'll move it over to the digital schematic as well.

Okay, here is the Function Generator.......

Bzzzzt. No longer care, over this forum shit.........ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

timb

• Super Contributor
• Posts: 2528
• Country:
• Pretentiously Posting Polysyllabic Prose
Oscilloscope pong for 1 or 2 players.
« Reply #146 on: March 28, 2017, 12:06:21 pm »
Wow, that looks great! Feel free to share as you go along and I'll move it over to the digital schematic as well.

Okay, here is the Function Generator.......

Sweet!

What time base is the scope set to on those waveforms? It would be good to document that for in use debugging and troubleshooting. (To know what frequency the signals should optimally be, along with the voltage range.)
« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 07:06:46 pm by timb »
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.

GK

• Super Contributor
• Posts: 2607
• Country:
Re: Oscilloscope pong for 1 or 2 players.
« Reply #147 on: March 28, 2017, 12:29:36 pm »
It's 50uS/div. I can add that I guess. The nominal operating frequency of the function generator is 4800Hz. My 10nF timing cap measures almost 10% high (the upper limit of the tolerance range), so f measures ~4400Hz, but that is perfectly OK.
Bzzzzt. No longer care, over this forum shit.........ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

HackedFridgeMagnet

• Super Contributor
• Posts: 1974
• Country:
Re: Oscilloscope pong for 1 or 2 players.
« Reply #148 on: March 28, 2017, 09:42:37 pm »
Great to have the waveforms on the schematic. Like the old days of CRT TVs and Video Cassette players.

bitseeker

• Super Contributor
• Posts: 8596
• Country:
• Lots of engineer-tweakable parts inside!
Re: Oscilloscope pong for 1 or 2 players.
« Reply #149 on: March 28, 2017, 10:34:03 pm »
And good old test equipment service manuals.
I TEA.

Smf