Selling products with Li-Po batteries inside

[AndyC_772]

Products are generally tested in their normal operating state, which means the battery is fitted.

If you're supplying a battery, then that's the battery with which the product will be tested. If you recommend a specific type, but let the customer go out and buy it separately, then it'll still be tested with that type.

You minimise your risk by supplying a battery, with clear instructions in the manual to use only the supplied battery and no others. This is one reason - as well as the obvious ability to price gouge - why some companies have identification chips in their batteries to authenticate them before charging.

[pyrohaz]

Products are generally tested in their normal operating state, which means the battery is fitted.

If you're supplying a battery, then that's the battery with which the product will be tested. If you recommend a specific type, but let the customer go out and buy it separately, then it'll still be tested with that type.

You minimise your risk by supplying a battery, with clear instructions in the manual to use only the supplied battery and no others. This is one reason - as well as the obvious ability to price gouge - why some companies have identification chips in their batteries to authenticate them before charging.

I'd be quite happy supplying an internal battery with the product, its just a matter of the legalities! I was considering laser cutting a case too out of standard plywood though I assume this would be even worse than perspex with respect to fire safety?

[AndyC_772]

I very much doubt a plywood box would meet the requirements of a fire enclosure. 

[pyrohaz]

I very much doubt a plywood box would meet the requirements of a fire enclosure. 

That's unfortunately true. I have a feeling that trying to incorporate a LiPo battery is an uphill struggle really. So I think i'd be prepared to make the move to NiMH batteries. I know this is kind of hijacking my own post but as most of my questions have been answered here, I don't really see the point in starting a new one!

My system runs at 2.8v with a low voltage cutoff at 3v. Using 3 NiMH cells and a different charging IC, could I essentially straight replace the LiPo battery? I know that getting 3.6v NiMH packs is really easy as you find them in all kinds of cordless phones etc.

What safety regulations are present with including NiMH batteries in such products?

[sleemanj]

Look, realistically, how many do you think you are going to sell?  Probably not that many in the scheme of things, not enough that the problems of all the various rules and regulations regarding consumer products are likely to be worth it, no matter what battery chemistry you use, it's a niche product.

My 2c, satisfy yourself that your design is sound, and safe, then sell it as a kit.  Let the customer add their own battery, let the customer add their own power supply (or better, just make your kit USB powered).

That product you linked to, that's exactly what they do, it's sold in kit form, probably for much the same reason.

Kits are:
  1. Fun for people to assemble
  2. Save you a lot of certification type of headaches (well, probably, depends on your local laws I suppose)
  3. Cheaper for people (well, marginally these days)
  4. Have a long and wonderful history, especially in audio gear.

It's time to bring back the kitset gear I say!

[amyk]

I think incorporating an existing smartphone battery is the best choice if you want LiPo - there's no need to ship batteries with the product.  IMHO the tiny (in comparison to many other things people do) risk, especially if you're selling in low volume, is too small to worry about.

[AndyC_772]

I don't think it's necessarily your choice of battery chemistry that's the issue here.

If you want to make and sell a product, then you NEED to become familiar with the IEC safety standard, or standards, which govern your responsibilities under the LVD. These, and these alone, will tell you what you need to do (as well as what you don't need to do!), and you may well find that the type of battery you use really isn't that much of an issue provided you meet the other requirements relating to fire safety.

The truth is that the need to meet - and demonstrate that you have met - the legal requirements for a product is a barrier to entry into the market, and it really does prevent a lot of low volume, 'hobby' type products from ever seeing the light of day. It's terribly sad for an enthusiastic hobbyist wanting to make a few beer tokens on the side, but on the other hand the rules are there to protect the public from well-intentioned but ultimately dangerous products.

Unless a product is going to sell in enough volume and make enough money to cover the test and development costs as well as earn a reasonable living for you as a manufacturer, then it really can be best to treat any such project as a learning experience and then put it on the shelf.

I've done exactly this on several occasions. I have a few really quite cool (IMHO!) projects sitting around the house, which were designed with every intention that they could be brought to market, but once they're made production-ready and CE marked, they're unlikely to be worth my while because the numbers just don't stack up. On the other hand, they've been fantastic demonstration items to show to prospective customers, and in terms of the work they've helped me to get, they've paid for themselves many times over even though I've never sold a single unit.

[mikeselectricstuff]

The truth is that the need to meet - and demonstrate that you have met - the legal requirements for a product is a barrier to entry into the market, and it really does prevent a lot of low volume, 'hobby' type products from ever seeing the light of day.

I suspect that more low volume products are just sold regardless, or shelved for other reasons than being shelved due to regs that are highly unlikely to be enforced unless you kill someone.

In the UK at least, enforcement is generally complaint based, and Trading Standards are way too busy policing dangerous toys and lethal fake chargers on the high street.

or standards, which govern your responsibilities under the LVD

LVD only applies to products that use >50V,  so a battery powered device is outside its scope.

[pyrohaz]

The truth is that the need to meet - and demonstrate that you have met - the legal requirements for a product is a barrier to entry into the market, and it really does prevent a lot of low volume, 'hobby' type products from ever seeing the light of day.

I suspect that more low volume products are just sold regardless, or shelved for other reasons than being shelved due to regs that are highly unlikely to be enforced unless you kill someone.

In the UK at least, enforcement is generally complaint based, and Trading Standards are way too busy policing dangerous toys and lethal fake chargers on the high street.

or standards, which govern your responsibilities under the LVD

LVD only applies to products that use >50V,  so a battery powered device is outside its scope.

So I'm hoping to sell on a simple webstore, as of yet, no external fronted shop or selling through distributors. I think that my product will be some what niche to the standard person as, being realistic, it only appeals to a specific set of musicians interested in creating synthesized sounds (not the general musician public). I think the people who will be buying it know what they're buying and its not going to be a massive impulse buy for non-musicians so I'm not expecting complaints direct to Trading Standards. Plus, any complaints people have can directly contact me and I will be happy to deal with them, that should come with selling a product as customer support IMO.

I recently had a more indepth look at the LVD and yes, my product won't be classed in it. I will be supplying a USB cable to ensure the users can charge it and it will be at their discretion whether to use a USB charger (it would work but obviously - for legal reasons, I'd advise against using such).

After all the replies to this thread, I think that my product will be safe if I take specific precautions with respect to Li-Po charging and usage. The MCP73831 has lots of inbuilt safety features such as input shorting fault detection and others that help keep the Li-Po in safe conditions.

When I do come round to selling the product, I will have a look into testing and see if it is relatively well priced with regards to how much return I'm expecting. I think testing is the same kind of game as patenting. Filing a patent is relatively cheap (~£1k) but ensuring your patent is legally sound, of the correct format and water tight is where you're going to be spending a lot of the money. Looking on the internet, testing seems relatively well priced, I've seen quotes of £475 for 90% of cases and such.

[eas]

Apologies if its bad form to necromance month-old threads, but...

Aren't there some standardized lithium-ion packs and subsystems out there that help with some of the design and compliance issues?

They might not be worth using at this stage, but once you've proven out the technology and the market, it might be a good option if the business is worth enough that risk-mitigation is worthwhile, but not so much that there is a reasonable ROI from certifying a fully custom design.

[pyrohaz]

Apologies if its bad form to necromance month-old threads, but...

Aren't there some standardized lithium-ion packs and subsystems out there that help with some of the design and compliance issues?

They might not be worth using at this stage, but once you've proven out the technology and the market, it might be a good option if the business is worth enough that risk-mitigation is worthwhile, but not so much that there is a reasonable ROI from certifying a fully custom design.

I'd definitely benefit from knowing this too!

[eneuro]

I'd definitely benefit from knowing this too!

I will probably benefit more if in one of my products I'll forget about those dangerous Li-Po, and put inside this thing VRLA reachargable easy to charge with quite simply circuits. Probably limiting possible customers market and additional safety issues preventing fire to overcome will cost more than putting ordinary battery easy to source in the case of failure of oryginal one and let it go to customers happy they have something new which makes his life easier, but not risking more dangers.

BTW: If I had a choice to have cell phone powered by sun with only a few buttons and only 1minute limit per call and other with Li-Po or Li-On and those many useless functions if its battery is discharged I'd choose this one powered by light for sure