Poll

How about creating a GitHub repository for this?

Not really interested
7 (70%)
Would like to take a peek at one
2 (20%)
Would like to use the concept, but mostly create stuff myself
1 (10%)
Would like to duplicate the modules as they are
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 10

Author Topic: Playable electronic modules - modules in action  (Read 9864 times)

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Offline HendriXMLTopic starter

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Re: Playable electronic modules - soldered and boxed
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2019, 12:15:53 pm »
Just a side note: you can get 10 PCBs for 2$ from jlcpcb (+ shipping which depends on what you choose). I think that will end up being more convinient and actually lower cost rather than using a perf board and wires to solder everything together. You can print and put the symbol of the gate on the top as well so the same pcb can be reused for all of the gates. It' also a lot easier if you want to add leds on the inputs/outputs.
I once got a PCB from Elecrow with a special offer 10 pcs of 100x100mm for 12€ including shipping. But that seems to be gone.
https://www.allpcb.com/online_pcb_quote.html?hidLength=50&hidWidth=70&hidNum=10&countNumer=10&txtSelNum=&hidLayers=2&Thicknessquote=1.6
With this manufacturer the shipping is free. Otherwise that will add up. Those perfboard where not expensive, but the time to create one gate module is near 4 hours now. Going with SMT and designed PCB’s sound attractive then. However I would need to buy new parts also (or bend the pins).
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 01:33:21 pm by HendriXML »
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Offline SpencerTC

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Re: Playable electronic modules - soldered and boxed
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2019, 02:02:30 pm »
I like this idea. I volunteer to teach a beginners electronics class once a week and we haven't gotten to digital design yet. I think I will use your idea and make several for demonstration purposes, I will likely just give them breadboards and IC's when we get to the hands-on lab portion of that concept.

Thanks for being my muse in this instance!
 

Offline HendriXMLTopic starter

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Re: Playable electronic modules - soldered and boxed
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2019, 02:53:44 pm »
I like this idea. I volunteer to teach a beginners electronics class once a week and we haven't gotten to digital design yet. I think I will use your idea and make several for demonstration purposes, I will likely just give them breadboards and IC's when we get to the hands-on lab portion of that concept.

Thanks for being my muse in this instance!
Nice to hear!

If you need files I could create a GitHub repo for this or post them here, but I have to update them all.

This is what I got
  • Stickers with symbols in Visio, great tool for parameterized 2D drawings
  • Case/box in FreeCad, great tool for parameterized 3D designs
  • PCB layout in KiCad
But all of them are ready for a 2.0 revision.
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Offline Mortymore

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Re: Playable electronic modules - soldered and boxed
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2019, 03:03:26 pm »
Some time ago I built some "Circuit Tiles" as I called, to teach something about electricity to my kids.

Searched the internet for some games, but found nothing available in my country, so I build some stuff with the thing I had.
Saw some games that had magnetic connections, some would clip, others had connections like puzzles...

My option was to interconnect the modules with alligator clips, using crimping terminals with a nail inside to secure them to the wood base tiles.

Since in your case, with a lot of connections to logic ports and such, I think an option could be use terminals like the Arduino boards has, and the connections would be made with jumper wires (like those used for breadboards).
EDIT: Why invert the type of connection you showed? Because you can even use simple wires with the insulation striped on the tips to make the connections, in case you run out of jumpers. And you could dedicate to each port, not just one interconnection pin/plug, but 2 or 3, since you may have to interconnect them with other inputs/outputs.

Leave you with just some ideas...
I'm curious about your work, because I might be interested to move from electricity tiles, to electronic tiles. So your findings and options, may be useful to me.  :-+

« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 03:44:00 pm by Mortymore »
 
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Offline HendriXMLTopic starter

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Re: Playable electronic modules - soldered and boxed
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2019, 04:36:15 pm »
Since in your case, with a lot of connections to logic ports and such, I think an option could be use terminals like the Arduino boards has, and the connections would be made with jumper wires (like those used for breadboards).
EDIT: Why invert the type of connection you showed? Because you can even use simple wires with the insulation striped on the tips to make the connections, in case you run out of jumpers. And you could dedicate to each port, not just one interconnection pin/plug, but 2 or 3, since you may have to interconnect them with other inputs/outputs.
Nice work!

The reasons I choose male pinheaders is because:
  • With the counterpart - the females it is harder to create shortcircuits, so no problem to have them hanging around.
  • I couldn't find any other silicone prepared wires: it needs to be flexible, otherwise the modules don't keep their location/alignment
  • Wires are of high quality but also cheap, so its easy to have enough of them
  • The pins on the PCB are very durable and strong, male connectors can easily break
  • The pins are a self defence mechanism, so no one steps on the modules that took so much time to create ;)
It is always possible to cut one end and put a male one on them.

When it's time to interact with an Arduino I might make headers with stickers on them. Haven't thought about it yet. All the gate modules will probably become redundant by then (I guess).

First I will also have to create modules with comparators, oscillators, etc.  :-+

Switches, potmeters, LDR's will probably just be wired with Dupont connectors.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 04:46:08 pm by HendriXML »
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Offline HendriXMLTopic starter

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Re: Playable electronic modules - soldered and boxed
« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2019, 09:26:58 pm »
The idea of putting magnets on the sides will be implemented in the upcoming revision. Having modules clicked/close to one other saves desktop space and make it much easier to transport a setup. Pins and wires won’t be under tension as much.

In Cura the software that renders the 3D print I found a way to create a local solid fill. I will just dril holes in those solid fills and glue the cylindrical magnets in them. Will off course make a drilling template to have the magnets allign precisely. The local solid fills are also important for the PCB stands.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 09:31:56 pm by HendriXML »
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Offline SpencerTC

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Re: Playable electronic modules - soldered and boxed
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2019, 09:12:41 pm »
I like this idea. I volunteer to teach a beginners electronics class once a week and we haven't gotten to digital design yet. I think I will use your idea and make several for demonstration purposes, I will likely just give them breadboards and IC's when we get to the hands-on lab portion of that concept.

Thanks for being my muse in this instance!
Nice to hear!

If you need files I could create a GitHub repo for this or post them here, but I have to update them all.

This is what I got
  • Stickers with symbols in Visio, great tool for parameterized 2D drawings
  • Case/box in FreeCad, great tool for parameterized 3D designs
  • PCB layout in KiCad
But all of them are ready for a 2.0 revision.

Thank you!

Honestly, the only resource (other than the idea) that I would use would more than likely be the stickers. I do believe others might also want to use this idea, so a repo with all relevant information would be nice.

I thought of a potential feature....the labels could be removable (magnet, velcro, etc...) that way you could make an array of gates, put some known inputs in and have a few LED's scattered throughout the design for outputs...then you could make the students decipher what type of gate each of them are.
 

Offline HendriXMLTopic starter

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Re: Playable electronic modules - revising - safer/magnetic
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2019, 01:07:34 am »
I recreated the gate stickers, they now in portrait stand. This allow a better view on the symbols. The power connectors do not block the view as well.

I've one rev 2.0 case done, it takes 3,5 hours to print. Estimate all incl. cost was about 0.80 €.

The measured weight was 29 gr. Which corresponds to about 0.60 € worth of PLA.

I'm still struggling with how to mount the magnets. The coating on them makes them hard to glue, but it can be done with superglue they say (degrease, fine grain sanding). However that is of a later concern.

The new case has more margin so the PCB/case is not under any tension anymore. The hex screws can be tightened a lot, I'm pleased with that choice.

Next step is to resolder the XOR example and give it a new sticker. The headers will be soldered after applying the sticker. I don't want any burn-marks any more.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2019, 01:37:16 pm by HendriXML »
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Offline HendriXMLTopic starter

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Re: Playable electronic modules - soldered and boxed
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2019, 01:17:13 am »
I thought of a potential feature....the labels could be removable (magnet, velcro, etc...) that way you could make an array of gates, put some known inputs in and have a few LED's scattered throughout the design for outputs...then you could make the students decipher what type of gate each of them are.
Nice idea! (They could also be covered.)

I'll be creating nice assignments as well. I guess it will be in the form of:

John wants his lights (use LED) to go on when it gets dark (use LDR). But only when he's at home (use switch 01).
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Offline HendriXMLTopic starter

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Re: Playable electronic modules - soldered and boxed
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2019, 10:20:20 am »

Honestly, the only resource (other than the idea) that I would use would more than likely be the stickers. I do believe others might also want to use this idea, so a repo with all relevant information would be nice.


No problem  :-+

If anyone needs something I’d like to hear it.

Creating a repository takes a lot of effort to do it right, so from an efficiency point of view I’ll delay that if possible or let the idea go. I’ve put a poll to this thread, to measure the interest in a repo.

The stickers match the 5x7 perfboards, so Visio would be needed if changes are required.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2019, 10:47:38 am by HendriXML »
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Offline Gyro

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Re: Playable electronic modules - revising - safer/magnetic
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2019, 11:25:00 am »
I recreated the gate stickers, they now in portrait stand. This allow a better view on the symbols. The power connectors do not block the view as well.

I've one rev 2.0 case done, it takes 3,5 hours to print. Estimate cost was about 0.80 euro.

I'm still struggling with how to mount the magnets. The coating on them makes them hard to glue, but it can be done with superglue they say (degrease, fine grain sanding). However that is of a later concern.

The new case has more margin so the PCB/case is not under any tension anymore. The hex screws can be tightened a lot, I'm pleased with that choice.

Next step is to resolder the XOR example and give it a new sticker. The headers will be soldered after applying the sticker. I don't want any burn-marks any more.

You've forgotten to include (multiple) VCC and GND pins for tying inputs high or low.

P.S. You could also do with adding a multiple LED block for easy monitoring of output states. If still using LS TTL then I suggest driving them with a 74LS04 inverter so that the LEDs light for logic High.

P.P.S. If you provide multiple pins for each output, then it would be much easier to connect multiple jumpers for combinatorial logic. With single pins and female jumpers it's going to be very hard to, say, connect one output to more than one input.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2019, 11:45:13 am by Gyro »
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline HendriXMLTopic starter

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Re: Playable electronic modules - revising - safer/magnetic
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2019, 01:10:32 pm »
 :blah:
You've forgotten to include (multiple) VCC and GND pins for tying inputs high or low.
I think that is still a good idea, but my goal is at first to have the modules (visually) as simple as possible.
With almost no possibility to connect things the wrong way. (The pins are now also protected by a wall, so there’s almost no room to add extra’s without compressing the layout)

The highs and lows could in the current setup come from another module. I’m thinking about giving the inverter module a double function. Which with no input connected would output a low. And having a 2 pin connector at the input side, one as the inverter input, one a ground pin. So it would be possible to either use or jumper or a switch on a wire to create a high output, or use an active input.

That solution is not really short circuit safe. So I’m still thinking on it. (It should visually also be easy to understand).

For one output to many input relations I’ve made splitter wires. (1 to 3) These are easy to make from 2 normal ones and thus also cheap.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2019, 04:09:08 pm by HendriXML »
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Offline HendriXMLTopic starter

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Re: Playable electronic modules - revising - safer/magnetic
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2019, 09:43:12 pm »
I recreated the stickers.

I went for the KiCad color scheme. (Have to check if it prints ok on sticker paper).

I altered the inverter module to have its dual function. The ground symbol is made extra meaningfull, it is even more like a down arrow making the input low. So that will be easy to remember.

The output of this module will get LED's as Gyro suggested. The reason only this module will get output LEDs is mostly costs (time!). But also the importance of using encouraging to use other debug methods if needed. If there's always a very easy way to check a portion of the schematic, it's only human that the thinking goes down and the guessing goes up.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 01:42:27 am by HendriXML »
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Offline HendriXMLTopic starter

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Re: Playable electronic modules - revising - KiCad color scheme
« Reply #38 on: March 09, 2019, 10:41:20 am »
One way to have a perfect fitting sticker is to use the pins to align the sticker with the PCB. But also start with a larger sticker and cut (with the sticker downwards) using the PCB as a ruler.
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Offline HendriXMLTopic starter

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Re: Playable electronic modules - revising - KiCad color scheme
« Reply #39 on: March 09, 2019, 01:57:44 pm »
So the inverter modules will get a ground pin. It is however possible that an output of another module is accidentally connected to that pin. I’ve read that a gate IC can have one output short circuited for only one second. But also because it is almost impossible to replace them I want the best chances of surviving a short circuit.
So I thought is would be better to have a 100 ohm resistor between the “groundpin” and ground. With a pullup resistor of 15k that would be small enough to get a low signal when using a switch or jumper.

Are there alternatives (besides moving the resistor to the outputs)? There’s very little room left on the PCB.

My initial thought was just to replace the IC. But the turned pins I got to make that easy are just to loose around the IC legs. The IC would simply fall out with a good shake. I probably ordered LQ ones (aliex).
« Last Edit: March 10, 2019, 12:10:33 am by HendriXML »
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Online nctnico

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Re: Playable electronic modules - short circuit protection?
« Reply #40 on: March 09, 2019, 02:15:55 pm »
Why not make one large board with IC sockets and header connectors for each pin? This saves a lot of tedious soldering.
Decades ago I made this:

This has been great for learning logic circuits. It has a 5V power supply, LEDs, switches, transistors, two oscillators and some sockets to put discrete parts in. One thing I'd do differently is to have two or three headers per pin so I don't need daisy chain wires. This board was hand drawn using a velt pen BTW. I had to cut it into two pieces because the entire board wouldn't fit in my etch bath.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 02:17:51 pm by nctnico »
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Offline HendriXMLTopic starter

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Re: Playable electronic modules - short circuit protection?
« Reply #41 on: March 09, 2019, 02:40:22 pm »
I really like the idea of just exposing a socket, and make multi purpose modules. Not having to solder on the bottom side would save a lot of time too.

But for this educational beginners project I started with a very narow focus on just connecting Outs and Ins. As skills progress it may get more complicated in usage. For example finding out what pins do what on a IC.

For children it requires different properties than just beeing functional. Smaller modules are probably more “playable”. I’m no expert here, but I’m exploring the possibilities hoping the choices I make will turn out ok. (Making stuff for myself is easier)
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 05:44:45 pm by HendriXML »
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Online nctnico

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Re: Playable electronic modules - short circuit protection?
« Reply #42 on: March 09, 2019, 03:06:49 pm »
If you are going to make modules then I'd put TVS diodes across all the pins and use sockets. Zapping a chip due to ESD is done quickly.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline HendriXMLTopic starter

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Re: Playable electronic modules - short circuit protection?
« Reply #43 on: March 09, 2019, 05:59:10 pm »
If you are going to make modules then I'd put TVS diodes across all the pins and use sockets. Zapping a chip due to ESD is done quickly.
My hope is that TTL logic and pullup resistors of 15k at the inputs are enough to tackle the ESD zapping.

Didn’t know of TVS diodes, so thanks!

Having replaceable IC’s is probably the easiest solution. The IC’s are relatively cheap and not hard to check for proper working. To bad the turned pin arrays are to loose.
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Offline Gyro

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Re: Playable electronic modules - revising - safer/magnetic
« Reply #44 on: March 09, 2019, 06:54:18 pm »
The output of this module will get LED's as Gyro suggested. The reason only this module will get output LEDs is mostly costs (time!). But also the importance of using encouraging to use other debug methods if needed. If there's always a very easy way to check a portion of the schematic, it's only human that the thinking goes down and the guessing goes up.

It will still be a bit of a mental leap (especially for a young mind) to understand that a lit LED actually signifies a low on the output of the inverter and hence a high on the input. You could include a 'hidden' inverter to ensure that a lit LED indicates a high output state with less effort than a separate 'display' module.

Edit: Alternatively, if you did do a separate indicator module, then you could drive the LEDs with a simple common emitter transistor stage with high enough input resistance to give a 'true' indication, even with the weak source capability of 74LSxx.


Without wishing to harp on about logic families again... Regarding the logic family. If you were to use 74HC CMOS, then you could introduce a fair amount of ESD protection by employing the internal protection diodes already within the ICs in combination with a series resistor. The protection diodes are normally good for 5mA continuous (higher in ESD pulse), so with, say, 100k series resistors, you would get a reasonable level of protection (in fact the threshold might become the insulation breakdown voltage of the resistor). In normal high speed circuits, such high value resistors would cause unacceptable slowdown, but not for a 'static' trainer.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 07:00:11 pm by Gyro »
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Offline HendriXMLTopic starter

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This picture show why the turned pins I received are worthless! Some have internal connections some don't. This could have been horrible in an serious application of these pin headers!
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 07:25:32 pm by HendriXML »
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Offline HendriXMLTopic starter

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Re: Playable electronic modules - revising - safer/magnetic
« Reply #46 on: March 09, 2019, 08:08:34 pm »

It will still be a bit of a mental leap (especially for a young mind) to understand that a lit LED actually signifies a low on the output of the inverter and hence a high on the input.

The led corresponds to the state of the switch though. But you may well be right, it is something I’m not sure about. It will be the next module I’ll implement. Inverting is a simple operation, but a difficult one for the brain. If it’s to hard to grasp I will split the dual function module into seperate onces. And keep the difficult one for later.

I previously made a LED output module (old style: components on top, will be recreated). I think it works with 2N7000’s, that one “should” be used to show outputs.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2019, 10:04:35 pm by HendriXML »
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Online nctnico

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This picture show why the turned pins I received are worthless! Some have internal connections some don't. This could have been horrible in an serious application of these pin headers!
Better buy good ones then. Get real ones from (for example) Samtec.
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Offline Nusa

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If you've got white space on the label, put something useful on it. Such as the truth table for the operation. Or perhaps the alternate representation for the same gate. (e.g. a NAND gate is the same thing as an OR gate with inverted inputs)
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Playable electronic modules - revising - safer/magnetic
« Reply #49 on: March 09, 2019, 09:07:16 pm »

It will still be a bit of a mental leap (especially for a young mind) to understand that a lit LED actually signifies a low on the output of the inverter and hence a high on the input.

The led corresponds to the state of the switch though. But you may well be right, it is something I’m not sure about. It will be the next module I’ll implement. Inverting is a simple operation, but a difficult one for the brain. If it’s to hard to grasp I will split the dual function module into seperate onces. And keep the difficult one for later.

I previously made a LED output module (old style: components on top, will be recreated). I think it works with 2N7002’s, that one “should” be used to show outputs.

Yes sure, the LED will follow the state of the inverter input, just not the output (I guess it depends where you position them as to how much sense it makes). If you are trying to save work (and are doing PCBs) then maybe you can use the same one, populated with either output pins or LEDs + resistors. Then you could simply use different labels -  Inverter module for one, display module for the other.

Still soldering effort but less than two different designs. Just a thought.

P.S. Those sockets are terrible, I trust you're not going to pay for them! You don't really need the cost of turned pin sockets for a project like this - locally sourced flat spring contact ones will be fine. Easier to swap the ICs too (proper turned pin sockets hold on very tight!).
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 09:15:31 pm by Gyro »
Best Regards, Chris
 


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