Electronics > Projects, Designs, and Technical Stuff

Professional Prototyping Hardware Defined (Breadboard, Jumpers, low R stuff)

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tggzzz:

--- Quote from: tooki on July 22, 2020, 09:35:10 am ---
--- Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 09:27:30 am ---In that context, I don't see any significant difference between experimenting and prototyping.

--- End quote ---
Then it’s been far too long since you were a beginner.

--- End quote ---

Not really. I've been a beginner since the 60s - because I am always doing new things that are outside my previous experience.


--- Quote ---
--- Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 09:27:30 am ---As for not all breadboards being equal... Agreed. The problems are identifying the better (not good) ones before purchasing them, and what happens if poor ones have been purchased (or become poor over time).

--- End quote ---
Well, it’s not hard to identify a good one: buy a 3M.

Wearing out is indeed the bigger challenge. Now, in my experience, even a fairly abused 3M still holds onto leads quite well. Others here on the forums have noted that they’re still using the same ones 30 years later.

--- End quote ---

I use a 40yo Tek 485, despite having more modern scopes. That doesn't mean I would recommend a beginner buys one!


--- Quote ---Meanwhile, I’ve relegated most of the fleabay breadboards I originally bought to being little more than soldering jigs. Ain’t nobody got time fo’ 2 ohm contact resistance!

--- End quote ---

Often it is the varying resistance that causes "effects"!


--- Quote ---P.S. I edited my post above after you responded to it, FYI.

--- End quote ---

Noted, understood, accepted. I've done similar things :)

tooki:
P.P.S to my previous reply: one other thing you forget, tggzzz: soldering is also a skill that must be acquired and honed. If the first year apprentices had to solder each basic circuit they were learning, we’d be spending half the time soldering, and then debugging their soldering, before they could begin to get to the actual lesson. Plus, when soldered, simple mistakes become harder to fix, and components become harder to reuse. (In an educational setting, that’s a factor, too.) There’s no question that breadboarding is a great solution for this application.

Note that in the curriculum, construction methodology is its own course. In the theory courses, the students aren’t supposed to be learning/practicing how to solder. (And conversely, in the construction courses, they’re not meant to understand the complex circuits they’re assembling.)


--- Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 09:43:40 am ---
--- Quote from: tooki on July 22, 2020, 09:22:15 am ---
--- Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 07:26:31 am ---And then somebody dropped some equipment onto the bench with a thump, and you had to figure out which connection had moved. Not my idea of a good use of my time.

--- End quote ---
If that was enough to cause a connection to move, then the breadboard was junk to begin with, or has been so horribly abused as to have merited throwing out long ago. A high quality breadboard that hasn’t been abused holds onto leads and wires tightly.

--- End quote ---

Those caveats are important. Ensuring they are valid is non-trivial in the real world.

--- End quote ---
I really don’t think they are, as long as you’re not starting with unknown eBay garbage. If you’ve started with a 3M (or Global Specialties, or one of the handful of established high quality manufacturers), it’s easy to notice if it’s gone bad.


--- Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 09:43:40 am ---There are easy alternatives with better performance and more repeatable results; not using them is somewhat peverse IMNSHO :)

--- End quote ---
Nobody is arguing that those construction methods don’t perform better. But you refuse to acknowledge their downsides, like being much slower to build (especially for a beginner) and costlier (since you’re generally not disassembling them afterwards), and you refuse to acknowledge the benefits of solderless breadboards.

A good engineer knows when to apply a given construction method. And part of getting to that point is experiencing how different methods behave. IM(also NSH)O, bumping into the limitations of breadboarding is itself a useful experience.

Again, remember that you haven’t been a beginner in a very long time. Those of us who have, remember the value of, and joy in, being able to plug in a couple of simple components and seeing a circuit come to life for the first time. And how much we learned from blowing up a transistor or LED, and being able to reconnect a wire in two seconds after seeing what we did wrong.



--- Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 09:53:56 am ---
--- Quote from: tooki on July 22, 2020, 09:35:10 am ---
--- Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 09:27:30 am ---In that context, I don't see any significant difference between experimenting and prototyping.

--- End quote ---
Then it’s been far too long since you were a beginner.

--- End quote ---

Not really. I've been a beginner since the 60s - because I am always doing new things that are outside my previous experience.

--- End quote ---
Being a lifelong learner (which is a good thing) does NOT make you a beginner!!  |O

Over the years, you’ve accumulated TONS of knowledge that helps you understand the new things, and eliminate pitfalls that a beginner won’t know about. Experience solidifies the foundational knowledge that is then applicable to new challenges. A beginner simply doesn’t have those, and has to be allowed to accrue it.

And though I assume (hope?) that you meant that comment somewhat tongue-in-cheek, it’s ultimately rather dismissive of actual beginners.


--- Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 09:53:56 am ---
I use a 40yo Tek 485, despite having more modern scopes. That doesn't mean I would recommend a beginner buys one!

--- End quote ---
And completely irrelevant, as it’s a completely different type of tool. A new 3M breadboard bought today is identical to a new one made in 1975.



--- Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 09:53:56 am ---
--- Quote ---Meanwhile, I’ve relegated most of the fleabay breadboards I originally bought to being little more than soldering jigs. Ain’t nobody got time fo’ 2 ohm contact resistance!

--- End quote ---

Often it is the varying resistance that causes "effects"!

--- End quote ---
In a cheapie? Yup. But in a good breadboard like a 3M, it’s pretty darned consistent.



--- Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 09:53:56 am ---
--- Quote ---P.S. I edited my post above after you responded to it, FYI.

--- End quote ---

Noted, understood, accepted. I've done similar things :)

--- End quote ---
It was just a heads-up for context, and in case you wanted to address the added point.

tggzzz:

--- Quote from: tooki on July 22, 2020, 10:12:28 am ---P.P.S to my previous reply: one other thing you forget, tggzzz: soldering is also a skill that must be acquired and honed. If the first year apprentices had to solder each basic circuit they were learning, we’d be spending half the time soldering, and then debugging their soldering, before they could begin to get to the actual lesson. Plus, when soldered, simple mistakes become harder to fix, and components become harder to reuse. (In an educational setting, that’s a factor, too.) There’s no question that breadboarding is a great solution for this application.

Note that in the curriculum, construction methodology is its own course. In the theory courses, the students aren’t supposed to be learning/practicing how to solder. (And conversely, in the construction courses, they’re not meant to understand the complex circuits they’re assembling.)

--- End quote ---

Those are valid points. I've a little experience with getting absolute beginners started with construction and testing, but not as much as yours.

A counterpoint is that soldering is a useful general purpose skill for the rest of their lives.


--- Quote ---Again, remember that you haven’t been a beginner in a very long time. Those of us who have, remember the value of, and joy in, being able to plug in a couple of simple components and seeing a circuit come to life for the first time. And how much we learned from blowing up a transistor or LED, and being able to reconnect a wire in two seconds after seeing what we did wrong.

--- End quote ---

Oh, I still remember it - and see it in other people. Examples: daughter and people in the local hackspace.
 

--- Quote ---
--- Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 09:53:56 am ---
--- Quote from: tooki on July 22, 2020, 09:35:10 am ---
--- Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 09:27:30 am ---In that context, I don't see any significant difference between experimenting and prototyping.

--- End quote ---
Then it’s been far too long since you were a beginner.

--- End quote ---

Not really. I've been a beginner since the 60s - because I am always doing new things that are outside my previous experience.

--- End quote ---
Being a lifelong learner (which is a good thing) does NOT make you a beginner!!  |O

Over the years, you’ve accumulated TONS of knowledge that helps you understand the new things, and eliminate pitfalls that a beginner won’t know about. Experience solidifies the foundational knowledge that is then applicable to new challenges. A beginner simply doesn’t have those, and has to be allowed to accrue it.

--- End quote ---

I'll disagree. I started before university with audio and digital systems. After that I've made things using low-noise analogue, optical, LANs, RLANs, semi-custom, FPGA, hard-realtime software, cell system monitoring, soft realtime high availability servers, web shops and fulfillment, and I'm sure other things.

In none of those was I able to go on a course to learn them, since they were all too new. Instead it was reading the literature, working things out from first principles, and trial and error. In that sense I've always been a beginner - but I do try to apply my experience from a previous field (e.g. solderless breadboards) to a new field.

Recently I've started playing with RF/microwave, and there is relatively little in common with those technologies with my previous experience. Yes, I am a beginner at RF, and enjoying it.


--- Quote ---And though I assume (hope?) that you meant that comment somewhat tongue-in-cheek, it’s ultimately rather dismissive of actual beginners.

--- End quote ---

Not intentionally; helping beginners succeed at new things is fun.

tggzzz:

--- Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 10:34:31 am ---
--- Quote from: tooki on July 22, 2020, 10:12:28 am ---P.P.S to my previous reply: one other thing you forget, tggzzz: soldering is also a skill that must be acquired and honed. If the first year apprentices had to solder each basic circuit they were learning, we’d be spending half the time soldering, and then debugging their soldering, before they could begin to get to the actual lesson. Plus, when soldered, simple mistakes become harder to fix, and components become harder to reuse. (In an educational setting, that’s a factor, too.) There’s no question that breadboarding is a great solution for this application.

Note that in the curriculum, construction methodology is its own course. In the theory courses, the students aren’t supposed to be learning/practicing how to solder. (And conversely, in the construction courses, they’re not meant to understand the complex circuits they’re assembling.)

--- End quote ---

--- End quote ---

Those are valid points. I've a little experience with getting absolute beginners started with construction and testing, but not as much as yours.

A counterpoint is that soldering is a useful general purpose skill for the rest of their lives.


--- Quote ---Again, remember that you haven’t been a beginner in a very long time. Those of us who have, remember the value of, and joy in, being able to plug in a couple of simple components and seeing a circuit come to life for the first time. And how much we learned from blowing up a transistor or LED, and being able to reconnect a wire in two seconds after seeing what we did wrong.

--- End quote ---

Oh, I still remember it - and see it in other people. Examples: daughter and people in the local hackspace.
 

--- Quote ---
--- Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 09:53:56 am ---
--- Quote from: tooki on July 22, 2020, 09:35:10 am ---
--- Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 09:27:30 am ---In that context, I don't see any significant difference between experimenting and prototyping.

--- End quote ---
Then it’s been far too long since you were a beginner.

--- End quote ---

Not really. I've been a beginner since the 60s - because I am always doing new things that are outside my previous experience.

--- End quote ---
Being a lifelong learner (which is a good thing) does NOT make you a beginner!!  |O

Over the years, you’ve accumulated TONS of knowledge that helps you understand the new things, and eliminate pitfalls that a beginner won’t know about. Experience solidifies the foundational knowledge that is then applicable to new challenges. A beginner simply doesn’t have those, and has to be allowed to accrue it.

--- End quote ---

I'll disagree. I started before university with audio and digital systems. After that I've made things using low-noise analogue, optical, LANs, RLANs, semi-custom, FPGA, hard-realtime software, cell system monitoring, soft realtime high availability servers, web shops and fulfillment, and I'm sure other things.

In none of those was I able to go on a course to learn them, since they were all too new. Instead it was reading the literature, working things out from first principles, and trial and error. In that sense I've always been a beginner - but I do try to apply my experience from a previous field (e.g. solderless breadboards) to a new field.

Recently I've started playing with RF/microwave, and there is relatively little in common with those technologies with my previous experience. Yes, I am a beginner at RF, and enjoying it.

SMD components are another such new technology; to my surprise I now prefer them.


--- Quote ---And though I assume (hope?) that you meant that comment somewhat tongue-in-cheek, it’s ultimately rather dismissive of actual beginners.

--- End quote ---

Not intentionally; helping beginners succeed at new things is fun.

Siwastaja:
The point is, soldering is an essential skill to any electronic hobbyist or professional; you just can't avoid it because many parts just do not fit the solderless breadboard as-is.

OTOH, working with solderless breadboards is completely optional.

This means comparing between them isn't equal to begin with.

If it works for you better than soldering, then go ahead. Using the right tools helps. But I disagree with it being the "right tool" for almost anything. But I'll admit this is more an opinion than an indisputable fact.

But, if the solderless breadboard is working roughly the same (or even worse) than soldering iron, then, if you have a choice of having to use one tool to do everything, or swapping between two tools to achieve the same, I'd recommend using one tool and becoming very good with it. Use multiple different tools only when they offer significant benefits.

Similarly, professional chefs do not have a collection of dozens of different knives (as advertised on TV); instead, they have a few which they take good care of, sharpen every day, and can chop faster with the simple knife than using all modern gadgets available.

For electronic hobbyist or professional, soldering iron is this "knife". The simpler the tools, the more you can do with them. The more you use them, the better you get.

I hosted a university course about switched-mode converters, where the students prototyped buck and boost converters out of discrete parts and measured them. Obviously, not using solderless breadboards, but air-wiring the components. Not much actual wire was needed, either. Most had never used soldering iron. Yet with a little bit of guidance, the results were acceptable, including large thermal mass components, after about half an hour of practice. Getting from zero to a working buck converter layout was, I think, an hour average, or two hours worst case.

Measuring was quite easy because now you can probe the rigid soldered thing from every node without it getting apart all the time. This worked very fine for total beginners, IMHO, and I can't see how any type of solderless solution would be any better (especially given the layout requirements of switch mode converters). And it was this measurement and profiling step which took most of the time, say 3-4 hours easily to get it work and grab scope screenshots for a simple report. During this time, a few students needed to swap some parts or correct wiring mistakes - back to the soldering lab - but it wasn't a problem at all even with the irons being in the next room. And it's much better when you have the iron on your workbench.

And, now they can solder! The next thing will be much easier, as we evidenced when they converted the buck into boost.

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