Electronics > Projects, Designs, and Technical Stuff

Professional Prototyping Hardware Defined (Breadboard, Jumpers, low R stuff)

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tooki:

--- Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 10:36:19 am ---
--- Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 10:34:31 am ---
--- Quote from: tooki on July 22, 2020, 10:12:28 am ---P.P.S to my previous reply: one other thing you forget, tggzzz: soldering is also a skill that must be acquired and honed. If the first year apprentices had to solder each basic circuit they were learning, we’d be spending half the time soldering, and then debugging their soldering, before they could begin to get to the actual lesson. Plus, when soldered, simple mistakes become harder to fix, and components become harder to reuse. (In an educational setting, that’s a factor, too.) There’s no question that breadboarding is a great solution for this application.

Note that in the curriculum, construction methodology is its own course. In the theory courses, the students aren’t supposed to be learning/practicing how to solder. (And conversely, in the construction courses, they’re not meant to understand the complex circuits they’re assembling.)

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Those are valid points. I've a little experience with getting absolute beginners started with construction and testing, but not as much as yours.

A counterpoint is that soldering is a useful general purpose skill for the rest of their lives.

--- End quote ---
It’s not a “counterpoint” when it’s something I’ve addressed in detail already.

But there’s a time and a place to teach each skill. You don’t teach ALL the skills at once. You teach one at a time, and at the right point in time. It’s why you start little kids with mixing salad dressing first before you teach them knife skills.

Nobody — NOBODY — is saying soldering isn’t a critical skill to learn. But it’s orthogonal to circuit theory.



--- Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 10:36:19 am ---
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--- Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 09:53:56 am ---
--- Quote from: tooki on July 22, 2020, 09:35:10 am ---
--- Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 09:27:30 am ---In that context, I don't see any significant difference between experimenting and prototyping.

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Then it’s been far too long since you were a beginner.

--- End quote ---

Not really. I've been a beginner since the 60s - because I am always doing new things that are outside my previous experience.

--- End quote ---
Being a lifelong learner (which is a good thing) does NOT make you a beginner!!  |O

Over the years, you’ve accumulated TONS of knowledge that helps you understand the new things, and eliminate pitfalls that a beginner won’t know about. Experience solidifies the foundational knowledge that is then applicable to new challenges. A beginner simply doesn’t have those, and has to be allowed to accrue it.

--- End quote ---

I'll disagree. I started before university with audio and digital systems. After that I've made things using low-noise analogue, optical, LANs, RLANs, semi-custom, FPGA, hard-realtime software, cell system monitoring, soft realtime high availability servers, web shops and fulfillment, and I'm sure other things.

In none of those was I able to go on a course to learn them, since they were all too new. Instead it was reading the literature, working things out from first principles, and trial and error. In that sense I've always been a beginner - but I do try to apply my experience from a previous field (e.g. solderless breadboards) to a new field.

Recently I've started playing with RF/microwave, and there is relatively little in common with those technologies with my previous experience. Yes, I am a beginner at RF, and enjoying it.

SMD components are another such new technology; to my surprise I now prefer them.


--- End quote ---
None of that makes you a beginner at electronics!! Those are all specialities. But the fundamentals apply equally. Ohm’s law isn’t different in one area of electronics than another.

Seriously, dude. You. Are. Not. A. Beginner. Pretending you are is just arrogant.

tooki:

--- Quote from: Siwastaja on July 22, 2020, 10:54:31 am ---The point is, soldering is an essential skill to any electronic hobbyist or professional [...]

For electronic hobbyist or professional, soldering iron is this "knife". The simpler the tools, the more you can do with them. The more you use them, the better you get.

--- End quote ---
As I told tggzzz, nobody is claiming otherwise. But you can’t teach all skills at the same time.


--- Quote from: Siwastaja on July 22, 2020, 10:54:31 am ---you just can't avoid it because many parts just do not fit the solderless breadboard as-is.

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THT component availability is the ever-growing downside to breadboards.

But again, nobody is saying to avoid soldering altogether.

Being pro-breadboard does NOT mean being anti-soldering!!


Why are you guys so absurdly resistant to the mere concept of quick, solderless assembly being useful as an educational tool for beginners? You don’t seem to understand that you can’t expect absolute novices to know how to solder competently from day one. Nor that circuit theory itself is something that has to be learned. Attempting to teach someone both at once is, frankly, stupid. 

Siwastaja:
Well, we actually experimented getting some total novices (when it comes to prototyping/construction techniques) to start with soldering-based prototyping/experimentation techniques from the get-go. I think it worked very well. The learning curve to usable results was approximately 30 minutes on average. Soldering wasn't difficult; we did not remember seeing much frustration at all. Quite the opposite; soldering task got a lot of positive feedback. Using an oscillosscope for the first time was an order of magnitude more difficult, though!

Honestly, my recommendation would be to start with soldering, as early as possible, even if it "feels" like a too big of a step first. It likely isn't.

If you still find use for solderless breadboards after that, fine, but I mostly fail to see the point.


--- Quote from: tooki on July 22, 2020, 11:09:30 am ---Being pro-breadboard does NOT mean being anti-soldering!!

--- End quote ---

Of course not, that would be just ridiculous, no one's saying that.

sokoloff:
Soldering on PCBs is like assembling scale models.
Solderless breadboards are more like Legos.

If you’re experimenting and not sure what you want to make ahead of time, Legos/breadboards are better.

If you know before sitting down what you want to assemble, want a higher fidelity outcome, and can afford the lead time required to prepare for that, models/soldered PCBs are superior.

There’s a place for both IMO.

tooki:

--- Quote from: Siwastaja on July 22, 2020, 10:54:31 am ---
OTOH, working with solderless breadboards is completely optional.

This means comparing between them isn't equal to begin with.


--- End quote ---
And something optional is therefore useless and/or ineligible to be weighed as an option? Absurd.


--- Quote from: Siwastaja on July 22, 2020, 10:54:31 am ---If it works for you better than soldering, then go ahead. Using the right tools helps. But I disagree with it being the "right tool" for almost anything.
--- End quote ---
It’s better for some situations. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together understands the concept of “situation”.


--- Quote from: Siwastaja on July 22, 2020, 10:54:31 am ---But, if the solderless breadboard is working roughly the same (or even worse) than soldering iron, then, if you have a choice of having to use one tool to do everything, or swapping between two tools to achieve the same, I'd recommend using one tool and becoming very good with it. Use multiple different tools only when they offer significant benefits.
--- End quote ---
I already listed some benefits of solderless breadboards. Please refer to them.


--- Quote from: Siwastaja on July 22, 2020, 10:54:31 am ---Similarly, professional chefs do not have a collection of dozens of different knives (as advertised on TV); instead, they have a few which they take good care of, sharpen every day, and can chop faster with the simple knife than using all modern gadgets available.

--- End quote ---
HELLO?! Do you think professional chefs are born as professional chefs?!?  |O No. Back here in reality, everyone starts as a novice and has to accumulate skill and experience. For a chef in training, it’s worthwhile to invest the time to learn professional knife skills. But they still have to learn them. And at the same time, they also have to learn other skills, like ingredient knowledge, heat control, and myriad other things, both theoretical and mechanical.

This analogy only proves my point: you don’t teach all those skills at once. You have classes on one, classes on another, and so on. As skills accumulate, you begin combining those skills. (Before that, someone more skilled will do some of it for you. For example, if you’re teaching how to cook steaks, they’ll give the student a cut steak, not an entire side of beef, because they haven’t done the butchering class yet.)


Like, seriously, do you guys not know anything about pedagogy?!?



--- Quote from: Siwastaja on July 22, 2020, 11:18:37 am ---Well, we actually experimented getting some total novices (when it comes to prototyping/construction techniques) to start with soldering-based prototyping/experimentation techniques from the get-go. I think it worked very well. The learning curve to usable results was approximately 30 minutes on average. Soldering wasn't difficult; we did not remember seeing much frustration at all. Quite the opposite; soldering task got a lot of positive feedback. Using an oscillosscope for the first time was an order of magnitude more difficult, though!

Honestly, my recommendation would be to start with soldering, as early as possible, even if it "feels" like a too big of a step first. It likely isn't.

If you still find use for solderless breadboards after that, fine, but I mostly fail to see the point.

--- End quote ---
I never said to not get people started with soldering early. Just not at the same time as teaching another skill. If you’re teaching theory, teach theory; if you’re teaching soldering, teach soldering. But you can’t teach both at once. Most people have limits to how much knowledge they can absorb in a given amount of time. So you focus on one set of knowledge you wish to impart at a given moment.


--- Quote from: Siwastaja on July 22, 2020, 11:18:37 am ---

--- Quote from: tooki on July 22, 2020, 11:09:30 am ---Being pro-breadboard does NOT mean being anti-soldering!!

--- End quote ---

Of course not, that would be just ridiculous, no one's saying that.

--- End quote ---
You have both insinuated this multiple times in this thread alone.

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