Electronics > Projects, Designs, and Technical Stuff
Professional Prototyping Hardware Defined (Breadboard, Jumpers, low R stuff)
tooki:
--- Quote from: sokoloff on July 22, 2020, 11:23:47 am ---Soldering on PCBs is like assembling scale models.
Solderless breadboards are more like Legos.
If you’re experimenting and not sure what you want to make ahead of time, Legos/breadboards are better.
If you know before sitting down what you want to assemble, want a higher fidelity outcome, and can afford the lead time required to prepare for that, models/soldered PCBs are superior.
There’s a place for both IMO.
--- End quote ---
Thank you, a voice of reason.
I wonder how many famous architects got started with LEGO as kids, allowing their joy in architecture to blossom? How many engineers started with Mechano (or LEGO Technic)?
These other two here would be there taking the LEGO from the kid, tossing it in the trash as they watch, and saying “here’s some concrete and rebar, have fun!”
tggzzz:
--- Quote from: tooki on July 22, 2020, 11:00:19 am ---
--- Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 10:36:19 am ---
--- Quote ---
--- Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 09:53:56 am ---
--- Quote from: tooki on July 22, 2020, 09:35:10 am ---
--- Quote from: tggzzz on July 22, 2020, 09:27:30 am ---In that context, I don't see any significant difference between experimenting and prototyping.
--- End quote ---
Then it’s been far too long since you were a beginner.
--- End quote ---
Not really. I've been a beginner since the 60s - because I am always doing new things that are outside my previous experience.
--- End quote ---
Being a lifelong learner (which is a good thing) does NOT make you a beginner!! |O
Over the years, you’ve accumulated TONS of knowledge that helps you understand the new things, and eliminate pitfalls that a beginner won’t know about. Experience solidifies the foundational knowledge that is then applicable to new challenges. A beginner simply doesn’t have those, and has to be allowed to accrue it.
--- End quote ---
I'll disagree. I started before university with audio and digital systems. After that I've made things using low-noise analogue, optical, LANs, RLANs, semi-custom, FPGA, hard-realtime software, cell system monitoring, soft realtime high availability servers, web shops and fulfillment, and I'm sure other things.
In none of those was I able to go on a course to learn them, since they were all too new. Instead it was reading the literature, working things out from first principles, and trial and error. In that sense I've always been a beginner - but I do try to apply my experience from a previous field (e.g. solderless breadboards) to a new field.
Recently I've started playing with RF/microwave, and there is relatively little in common with those technologies with my previous experience. Yes, I am a beginner at RF, and enjoying it.
SMD components are another such new technology; to my surprise I now prefer them.
--- End quote ---
None of that makes you a beginner at electronics!! Those are all specialities. But the fundamentals apply equally. Ohm’s law isn’t different in one area of electronics than another.
Seriously, dude. You. Are. Not. A. Beginner. Pretending you are is just arrogant.
--- End quote ---
No, it is a humble recognition of my lack of knowledge of this topic. I don't think you realise how different RF microwave is to the other stuff I mentioned.
For example, please define the relationships between signals at the entry/exit ports on these PCBs. The last one is especially subtle :) Assume there is a groundplane on the other side of the board. (Ohm's law doesn't even start to apply!)
tggzzz:
--- Quote from: Siwastaja on July 22, 2020, 11:18:37 am ---Well, we actually experimented getting some total novices (when it comes to prototyping/construction techniques) to start with soldering-based prototyping/experimentation techniques from the get-go. I think it worked very well. The learning curve to usable results was approximately 30 minutes on average. Soldering wasn't difficult; we did not remember seeing much frustration at all. Quite the opposite; soldering task got a lot of positive feedback. Using an oscillosscope for the first time was an order of magnitude more difficult, though!
Honestly, my recommendation would be to start with soldering, as early as possible, even if it "feels" like a too big of a step first. It likely isn't.
If you still find use for solderless breadboards after that, fine, but I mostly fail to see the point.
--- Quote from: tooki on July 22, 2020, 11:09:30 am ---Being pro-breadboard does NOT mean being anti-soldering!!
--- End quote ---
Of course not, that would be just ridiculous, no one's saying that.
--- End quote ---
That's pretty much my experience too.
I wouldn't start people soldering with my first soldering iron, though. It was literally a red-hot poker, and not useful for electronics :)
tggzzz:
--- Quote from: tooki on July 22, 2020, 11:32:09 am ---
--- Quote from: Siwastaja on July 22, 2020, 11:18:37 am ---
--- Quote from: tooki on July 22, 2020, 11:09:30 am ---Being pro-breadboard does NOT mean being anti-soldering!!
--- End quote ---
Of course not, that would be just ridiculous, no one's saying that.
--- End quote ---
You have both insinuated this multiple times in this thread alone.
--- End quote ---
Saying "all crows are black birds" does not insinuate that "all black birds are crows".
tggzzz:
--- Quote from: sokoloff on July 22, 2020, 11:23:47 am ---Soldering on PCBs is like assembling scale models.
Solderless breadboards are more like Legos.
If you’re experimenting and not sure what you want to make ahead of time, Legos/breadboards are better.
If you know before sitting down what you want to assemble, want a higher fidelity outcome, and can afford the lead time required to prepare for that, models/soldered PCBs are superior.
There’s a place for both IMO.
--- End quote ---
False dichotomy; it isn't solderless breadboard or PCB. There are several very good and fast non-solderless(!) breadboard techniques.
Apart from that, for experimentation Lego/breadboards are often better than PCBs.
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