Author Topic: Switch mode inverter, totem-pole MOSFET driver, need help  (Read 29389 times)

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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Switch mode inverter, totem-pole MOSFET driver, need help
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2014, 01:08:40 am »
i tried some 40107 (simulations). it seems almost anything with capability to handle a large sink and momentary short can be a nice driver. but then again, im just mucking around with mosfets

From a 5V supply, CD40107 has an equivalent output resistance around 500 ohms, and switches in 200ns or so.  Dreadfully slow, and weaker than American piss beer!

A simulation code model may not correctly simulate the output pin driver.  Supposedly, LTSpice treats all digital logic, by default, as 1V supply.  VDD, what's that?

The actual mosfet switching losses occur at the transitions. At turn on the drain voltage is collapsing and the drain current is rising. They overlap for a part of the transition. The same thing happens when the fet turns off; drain voltage rises and drain current collapses the overlap occurs again. That can cause high peak power losses depending on the voltages and currents involved. The average power losses increase with switching frequency it can be more then conduction losses.

If one assumes the current rises linearly, then the voltage falls linearly (typical of an inductive hard switching turn-on event), and vice versa (inductive turn-off), the power dissipation will spike in a triangle shape, of width T1+T2 (where T1 and T2 are the rise/fall times of current and voltage, respectively), a peak power of Vcc * Isw, and thus a total energy of 0.5 * Vcc * Isw * (T1+T2).  Quick example: a buck converter, CCM, 100V input, 10A output.  If the switching takes 100ns, the energy per edge is 0.5 * 100V * 10A * 0.1us = 50uJ.  The total per cycle, of course, is simply double, or 100uJ.  At 100kHz, this is 100u * 0.1M = 10W average, or P = Tsw * Vcc * Isw * F.

Note that Tsw = T1 + T2 is NOT the risetime of a given waveform in the circuit.  If you measure only the drain voltage, you are getting literally half the story.

The same waveform is typical of capacitive loads as well, though these are uncommon in switching power supplies.  A pure resistive load has voltage falling, while current is rising, proportionally, and therefore has a quadratic power waveform, with a peak power of Vcc * Isw / 4, and an enclosed area (energy) of Vcc * Isw * Tsw / 6 (a dash of calculus proves the /6).

With a snubber, or resonant or quasi-resonant design, the switching losses can be considerably different, because the voltage and current are no longer inductive at all times.

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For say a higher voltage application output (drain) capacitance can be a source of significant losses.

Not really; in fact, your example illustrates this better than merely showing the magnitude of capacitive losses.  The comparison is this:

Your 24W switcher might dissipate 400V * 1.1A[note1] * 0.5 * 0.05us[note2] * 0.1 MHz = 2.2W in switching losses.

Note the 0.5 is back, because the flyback is probably doing most of the switching losses during turn-off.  Note also that 400V is the flyback waveform peak, not "Vcc"; this is the correct equivalent to the buck example's Vcc.

[note1] You didn't mention peak current; assuming a maximum 50% duty cycle in DCM, 0.448A RMS is 1.1A peak.
[note2] You also didn't mention switching time, so I'm making a SWAG.  Often, that's about the best you can do without actually building and measuring the thing, anyway.  So, the resulting number is of course proportionally uncertain.

Even if Tsw is vastly shorter (it can't be too much shorter; Rg is specified as 16 ohms on that device, so you shouldn't gain more than fourfold or so with an ideal gate driver), it's still more than the estimated conduction (0.16W) and capacitive (0.27W) losses.

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In higher voltage mosfet you will see Eoss expressed in uJ usually at 400V. That is the energy in the drain capacitance at 400V. To convert energy to power multiply times frequency.

Beware that many devices do not specify Eoss.  One cannot use Coss to estimate Eoss, because Coss is measured at one voltage only!  It varies extremely strongly with bias voltage (the AOD11S60 datasheet being a prime example of modern "super junction" transistors, which are more nonlinear than ever!)...

ok ima use a MOSFET BUK9Y59-60E for testing my math :D, ima switch this @ 13Mhz (assuming peak current @ 10A, peak voltage @ 50volts)
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1705534.pdf
Coss 66pF = 82.5nJ (@50v)

...So as you can see, a mistake which can easily be made ;)

See [BUK9Y59] Fig.15.  Do you think a capacitor that varies like that will actually absorb 82nJ worth of energy?  Is it more, is it less?  What is it really?  Hard to say, without a spec in the datasheet, and without doing calculus on the graph (bah!).  Fortunately it's small enough to ignore, for the most part.

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btw what about avalanche charge? how does this parameter apply to designs?
and looking at fig 15, t1 +T2 =  T_fall ? or its somewhat in the early part of T3?

What are you looking at?  Neither of the datasheets referenced mention those terms?  Anyway, avalanche is about excessive voltage causing breakdown.  Which can damage the transistor in spots if it occurs quickly, or thermal failure if it occurs more slowly (which is why they say "single pulse" or whatever, and specify what temperature the transistor was at to start with).  Manufacturers almost always provide the second kind, because the number looks better, while the first kind generally beguiles the unprepared switcher novice.

Tim
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Offline diyaudio

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Re: Switch mode inverter, totem-pole MOSFET driver, need help
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2014, 09:00:17 am »
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  Switching at 13MHz ??

You can switch any  FET  at high speeds.. however...at these speeds the FET`s  parasitic components come into play things such as,device bonding leads, *PCB* layout and package geometry, all of these parasitic components can realistically be modelled as a RLC network, (undetectable at low speeds, barely noticeable with simple circuits with low di/dt) I've never seen anyone reliably switch at these speeds without doing the necessary preparation work.
 




 

Offline mzzj

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Re: Switch mode inverter, totem-pole MOSFET driver, need help
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2014, 01:52:13 pm »


ah yes, the "area of triangle" method, i have read about it. so if i use BUK9Y59 as example, round up T-on/T-off total to 15ns, @50v/10A (arbituary) we get 3.75uJ. @ 13Mhz that gives 48.75watt ! hmmm did i "math" something wrong here? thats alot of heat above the package limits.


Sounds about right, 13Mhz is awful high switching frequency for anything power related.
 

Offline diyaudio

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Re: Switch mode inverter, totem-pole MOSFET driver, need help
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2014, 01:57:47 pm »
Quote
  Switching at 13MHz ??

You can switch any  FET  at high speeds.. however...at these speeds the FET`s  parasitic components come into play things such as,device bonding leads, *PCB* layout and package geometry, all of these parasitic components can realistically be modelled as a RLC network, (undetectable at low speeds, barely noticeable with simple circuits with low di/dt) I've never seen anyone reliably switch at these speeds without doing the necessary preparation work.
 

Really show me your waveforms 50Vds at 10A pk and 13MHz. We will keep it simple 50% duty. Let me know how that goes.

Okay I think you didn't understand me. Switching at 10A @ 13Mhz is a challenge that's my point, I'm NOT disagreeing with with you. I expected you from all people to have noticed the RLC statement but, you didn't :D



 
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Switch mode inverter, totem-pole MOSFET driver, need help
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2014, 11:21:43 pm »
well this is the fastest i could find on NXP, http://www.nxp.com/documents/data_sheet/PSMN050-80PS.pdf

3.4ns, that gives about 11watt in thermal waste. with such a high switching speed i am thinking the inductive kick back will be a monster!

Hmm, that looks quite nice actually.  Qg and C's low, and the time test was measured with a reasonable gate resistance (4.7 ohm, suggesting a mere 2A peak -- you need a gate driver almost as fast, of course -- most are in the 20ns range).

Except for the TO-220 package.  Lead inductance 2.5-7.5nH, per pin -- depending on how deep it goes into the board!

But yeah, still, 13MHz.  If you have to ask about it, or you're confused by numbers that might be guesses, or don't even know how those guesses were arrived at... you're going to make a delicious ball of smoke. ;)

Also, your D3 snubber diode is backwards...

For all the knowledge I have, I haven't even built a large converter over 2MHz.  The more you know, the more you know you don't know ;)

I’ve used that method for estimating switching losses and from experience it’s not very accurate. There’s nothing wrong with the math but the waveforms don’t typically match the math that it’s applied to. Case in point below.

(...)

The rise time to 10-80%Vdd (65V in this case) I have an RCD snubber, is on the order of 8nS.

Emphasis added ;)

Even trickier when you consider Coss, diode Cj and various other elements serve the same purpose on smaller time or energy scales.  Which makes designing something like a 13MHz converter, exactly, from the ground up, basically impossible. :D

In your waveform, it looks like the point in time where the yellow and blue traces cross is where the RCD snubber kicks in, and therefore where most of the turn-off losses occur.  Which is well below full voltage, which is good.

Turn-on may be similar, or it might be a little worse (diode recovery if any; inductor/winding capacitance).  Also depends if you have a diode across the gate resistor, which is often used.

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One of my bibles for this stuff is Basso’s book good detail on the fet loss. A relevant snip from the book is attached. Case 2 would apply to a flyback converter with RCD dv/dt snubber. This is what is seen in the actual waveforms. Ids has decayed to zero by the time Vds is at a maximum. Your equation assumes Ids is at a maximum when Vds is at a maximum.

Looks good.  I haven't read any before, but I recognize the name: I've come across many SPICE models by the author!

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If you have any suggestion for additional measurements let me know.

If you can get a coax soldered directly across that current sense resistor, and toss in some damping on all those resonances, I bet the waveforms would be a lot easier to scrutinize.  Could also do a 10x "no probe" probe for the gate voltage -- 450 ohms (or something near enough) from gate to coax to ground.  Leads as short as possible, of course (hide the 450 ohm resistor under the coax shield if you can?).  Even then, a couple feet difference in probe cables is significant here, so be careful.

Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Switch mode inverter, totem-pole MOSFET driver, need help
« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2014, 12:46:32 am »
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The more you know, the more you know you don't know

Agreed. One of those golden rules of life.
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