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Online EEVblog

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Re: Project: High power constant current programmable load
« Reply #50 on: May 29, 2012, 12:08:49 pm »
(actually 100 smaller modules gets rid of the majority of the problems concerning high current through pcb tracks, you could probably do it on standard 35micron copper)


Make sure you get cheap bare tin plated and not solder mask over bare copper (SMOBC). That way you get extra bonus trace thickness for free!

Dave.
 

Offline AllenTopic starter

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Re: Project: High power constant current programmable load
« Reply #51 on: May 29, 2012, 05:52:39 pm »

I double and triple checked the wiring to ensure it was correct.  The shunt resistor I am using is a 2 wire that I modified to be a 4 wire by soldering on some additional wires.  I used both a 100 nF and a .5 nF cap as I don't have a 1 nF, but it made no difference.  I considered using a very low current sense resistor value, but I'm afraid that the sense voltage will be swamped by circuit noise. 

I took a quick look with the oscilloscope and was getting either noise or oscillations in the 1.15 MHz region if I remember correctly.  I'll hook it back up when I get a chance and report on all of the node signals.

I think you will find that the OP07 is not the easiest opamp for unity gain. If you look at the data, you see a bump in the unity gain curve (about an extra 25% gain) just under 1Mhz. That suggests for me that it is not far from instability at unity gain, so the extra phase shifts of the transistor and mosfet sends it over the edge.

This is an opamp that would be far easier to stabilize at a gain of 10 or more.

An opamp will a phase shift closer to 90 degrees at unity gain will be much easier to stabilize.

Richard.

Remember, with that configuration, when the non-inverting input receives a voltage of about 10 mV, the output of the op-amp itself is around 4 V so the gain is really something like 400.  Is there another op-amp you might suggest?  I think the amp will need to be able to take at least 12 V supply voltage and have less than 250 uV input offset or maybe even a chopper amp.  Also, because I will be using so many op-amps, I'm hoping to get them for under $2 each in quantities of 30 or so.  Some people have made some op-amp suggestions before, but they were in the $5 range.
 

Offline T4P

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Re: Project: High power constant current programmable load
« Reply #52 on: May 29, 2012, 06:29:23 pm »
TLC277
I'm not too terribly sure if it's okay.
Check the datasheet to see if it's good for you
 


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Re: Project: High power constant current programmable load
« Reply #54 on: May 29, 2012, 07:18:07 pm »
I double and triple checked the wiring to ensure it was correct.  The shunt resistor I am using is a 2 wire that I modified to be a 4 wire by soldering on some additional wires.  I used both a 100 nF and a .5 nF cap as I don't have a 1 nF, but it made no difference.  I considered using a very low current sense resistor value, but I'm afraid that the sense voltage will be swamped by circuit noise. 

I took a quick look with the oscilloscope and was getting either noise or oscillations in the 1.15 MHz region if I remember correctly.  I'll hook it back up when I get a chance and report on all of the node signals.

Not sure if anyone else has suggested, but try a small ferrite bead (tube) on the gate of the mosfets, as close to the fet as possible.
Usually used to help combat oscillations when paralleling mosfets a ferrite bead can also be used with a single mosfet. High frequency noise on the gate is blocked, eliminating any tendency for oscillations.

Ian.

Ian Johnston - Original designer of the PDVS2mini || Author of the free WinGPIB app.
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Offline AllenTopic starter

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Re: Project: High power constant current programmable load
« Reply #55 on: May 29, 2012, 07:54:32 pm »
I just ordered a few parts to play with:

A 1%, 1 mOhm, 4 terminal resistor. http://www.vishay.com/docs/30179/wslp2726.pdf
Some 1 nF caps. http://www.kemet.com/kemet/web/homepage/kechome.nsf/vapubfiles/F3101_GoldMax.pdf/$file/F3101_GoldMax.pdf
An OPA27GP, internally compensated, unity-gain stable op-amp. http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/opa27.pdf
Some 20k trim pots for offset nulling. http://www.bitechnologies.com/pdfs/67.pdf
And the IXFK230N20T MOSFET. http://ixapps.ixys.com/DataSheet/DS100133A%28IXFK-FX230N20T%29.pdf

I should get those in a couple of days.  I'll give them a try and report back.
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Project: High power constant current programmable load
« Reply #56 on: May 29, 2012, 10:27:03 pm »

I think you will find that the OP07 is not the easiest opamp for unity gain. If you look at the data, you see a bump in the unity gain curve (about an extra 25% gain) just under 1Mhz. That suggests for me that it is not far from instability at unity gain, so the extra phase shifts of the transistor and mosfet sends it over the edge.

This is an opamp that would be far easier to stabilize at a gain of 10 or more.

An opamp will a phase shift closer to 90 degrees at unity gain will be much easier to stabilize.

Richard.

Remember, with that configuration, when the non-inverting input receives a voltage of about 10 mV, the output of the op-amp itself is around 4 V so the gain is really something like 400.  Is there another op-amp you might suggest?  I think the amp will need to be able to take at least 12 V supply voltage and have less than 250 uV input offset or maybe even a chopper amp.  Also, because I will be using so many op-amps, I'm hoping to get them for under $2 each in quantities of 30 or so.  Some people have made some op-amp suggestions before, but they were in the $5 range.
No. If you are oscillating at 1.15MHz, you are interested in the AC gain at 1.5MHz. Forget the DC levels. The transistor emitter follower and the mosfet source follower have a gain slightly less then 1, so the opamp has a gain slightly more then 1 for an oscillation.

If you look at the feedback loop, 10mV in results in 10mV across the shunt resistor - that is a unity gain feedback loop.  If you had a circuit that meant that 1mV in resulted in 400mV across the shunt resistor - that would be a gain of 400.

I saw your have ordered some OPA27s and that is still the wrong opamp choice. I will do a post  in a moment on how to choose the right kind of opamp.   The OPA27 is a brilliant opamp - except not for your circuit. I am not saying you cannot get the OPA27 to work, but it will never work as well as a more optimal opamp for this purpose, and since you are going to be paralleling many active load modules together, you really want rock solid stability.

Edit: I had written OP27. It is the OPA27 that have been ordered that are the ones that are not great. More in a new post.

Richard.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 12:26:16 am by amspire »
 

Offline IanB

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Re: Project: High power constant current programmable load
« Reply #57 on: May 29, 2012, 11:13:05 pm »
since you are going to be paralleling many active load modules together, you really want rock solid stability.

I imagine you will certainly want to design the circuit to minimize any cross-talk between the modules.
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Project: High power constant current programmable load
« Reply #58 on: May 30, 2012, 03:46:52 am »
Finding An Opamp For A Constant Current Load Circuit

I mentioned how I thought that OP07 and OPA27 opamps were not good choices for constant current load.

Going back to opamp basics, you want an opamp to have as much gain as possible. The higher the gain, the lower the gain errors.  But the gain will fall off with frequency, and at some point, the input-output phase shift will be 180 degrees. If the gain is still positive, the opamp can be come an oscillator.

So an ideal opamp has one single resistor-capacitor type roll off that dominates, so you have a 6dB/Octave (or 20dB/decade) roll-off. The idea is that all other parts of the opamp circuit should be so fast that they do not even start to roll-off until below the opamp's unity gain point. In terms of phase shift, a single RC roll off becomes a constant 90 degree phase shift. This idea opamp is very stable as it always has a 90 degrees phase margin from instability. The other great thing  is that this phase shift is spot on 90 degrees for every opamp regardless of frequency, voltage, input offset, etc (we are still talking the ideal opamp here) so if external compensation is required, the opamp behaves totally predictably.

In the real world, for every opamp, the designers have pushed a few limits to make the opamps specs as good as possible. So when you look for an opamp, you need to look for one with the design choices that suit the application.

If we look at the OPA27 data, we see there is no open loop phase information, but here is the gain versus frequency plot:



The fall-off should be a ruler-straight 20dB/Decade. Above 200KHz though, the fall-off rate increases, so you know for sure that ugly things are happening with the phase shifts between 200Khz and 10Mhz. Even the slightest deviation usually means big diversions from the ideal 90 degrees shift.

The designers have made tho opamp stable at unity gain - just. This is an opamp probably optimized for really great performance as a x10 or x100 amplifier, but it is unknown and unspecified for its phase performance near unity gain. With this opamp, even if you get one module to be stable, the next one might not be stable.

Now if we look at the OP27 instead of the OPA27, we see an improved situation:



The deviation is much smaller from ideal and the phase shift is specified (at +/-15V at least). The unity gain phase margin is 70 degrees which is good, and that means that even if the mosfet driver circuit adds a 35 degrees phase shift, the circuit will still be stable. The phase shift plummets to 180 deg at a gain of about -7dB, so that indicates that the designers have pushed the design limits to get maximum gain and speed.  Definitely, the OP27 is much better for a constant load regulator then an OPA27 or OP07.

Now if I go to a Microchip MCP6V26 opamp (2uV offset 5.5V maximum supply voltage, 6.5V absolute maximum), we see the Open Loop performance.



This looks like an excellent amplifier for unity gain.  The gain rolls off at an ideal 20dB/Decade to well below unity gain, and the phase shift shows no bumps to indicate the designers have added zero's to stabilize the opamp.  The IC is specified for a 60pF capacitive load, and the 180 deg phase shift happens at a gain of about -12dB. This would be a great IC to use at a price well below $2. Since it is an auto-zero opamp, you need to give the opamp a few hundred uSecs on startup to zero the offset before the output regulation is accurate to 2uV across the shunt resistor. The 2MHz maximum frequency is a help too - lower unity gain frequencies make the design easier, and 2MHz would still mean a fast response is possible. This IC an go up to 5.3V at 3mA output, so if you have a transistor emitter follower, plus a 1mOhm shunt resistor, you have about 4.5V left to drive the MOSFET. If you can source mosfets that only need 4.5V or less to reach the desired current, it can be used.

Back to my comments about the opamp maximum frequencies. Adding compensation to unity gain opamps is not great, as at best, as capacitor across the opamp can reduce the gain from about 1.1 to 1.0. The effect of any compensation is it slows down the opamps ability to respond dynamically - like a change in the load voltage.

The way to design this circuit is aim for inherent stability without compensation, then add parts to improve stability.  If you can design the driver and mosfet circuit to have a phase shift of less then 35 degrees at the maximum opamp frequency, then the circuit will probably be inherently stable. Both the emitter follower and source follower will be naturally fast, so the speed limit will be due to the time constant of the transistor drive into the mosfet gate capacitance. If the gate capacitance is 10nF, and the source follower gain is above 0.9, then the effective gate capacitance is less then 1nF. It is then all about getting the RC time constant from the transistor output to the mosfet input to be fast enough to to get the transistor/mosfet phase shift to less then the 35 degrees (or whatever you choose).

If you can manage this, then you can probably get the circuit to be stable even with no compensation. That would be a great starting place.

Hope that helps.

Richard.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 06:17:30 am by amspire »
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Project: High power constant current programmable load
« Reply #59 on: May 30, 2012, 04:19:23 am »
One more point related to the speed of the opamp compensation. If the load is at 0V, the FETS will be driven hard on. If the load then jumps to 4V, the constant current load will initially have a massive current surge, until the opamps has time to adjust. The size of this surge will be limited by the circuit resistance, the mosfet ON channel resistance and the circuit inductance. We can be talking over 10,000 amps easily.

The more compensation, the slower the adjustment. With a minimal compensation, this surge pulse width could be  a few microseconds wide. With heavy compensation (like the 100nF cap) it could be milliseconds wide. The size of this surge will be completely independent of the current limit settings.

This also probably means you do not want more gate voltage available then you really need. A gate drive of 12V is probably excessive.

Richard.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 04:39:03 am by amspire »
 

Offline AllenTopic starter

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Re: Project: High power constant current programmable load
« Reply #60 on: May 30, 2012, 10:18:03 pm »
What do you think of the potential of this op amp?  NJMOP07D, offset voltage: 150 uV, Phase at unity gain: ~110 degrees.

http://semicon.njr.co.jp/njr/hp/fileDownloadMedia.do?_mediaId=101


« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 10:20:07 pm by Allen »
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Project: High power constant current programmable load
« Reply #61 on: May 31, 2012, 12:48:22 am »
That is a op07 made by Japan radio with slightly lower specs then the TI version.

My problem with the OP07 is that odd things do happen at unity gain. The Japan Radio specs are very brief, but if you look at the TI specs, the unity gain response curve has a hump just below 1MHz. For some odd reason, the Japan radio specs only give the curves for a x100 amplifier (instead of the open loop gain) and that can hide irregularities in the curves. If you go back to the OP07 curves, print out the page and put a ruler along the open loop gain curve. What do you see happening to the curve near 0dB gain? Form memory, TI do not publish a proper open loop phase versus frequency graph at all.

Ultimately, you may want to just test for yourself. Get several different opamps, connect them up with the non-inverting input to ground, and the inverting input connected via a 100K resistor to the output. Connect a signal generator via a 1uF cap to the inverting input, and measure your own gain versus phase curves using a dual channel scope near unity gain. One probe on the inverting input and one on the output - both in x10 mode. If you do your own tests, you see the stuff the IC manufacturers do not want to publish. It is not a hard test to do at all.

My concern with the OP07 is that the designers may have added a zero near the unity gain frequencies to improve stability or to extend the bandwidth a little. It would show up in the phase curves as a flattening or even upward bump. That alone doesn't make the chip bad, but it is a factor that will vary from chip to chip, with temperatures, with common mode voltages, etc.  In general, the less fiddling the designers have had to do the easier the chip will be to use.

The OP07s will need a dual supply. The microchip opamp I mentioned only needs a single supply as the inputs and outputs are rail to rail. The microchip opamp is also cheaper and the offset without adjustment will be probably over ten times better then the "OP" family of chips with adjustment. The catch is you need Mosfets that will give the maximum current you need at under 4.5V.

Richard.
 

Offline eevblogfan

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Re: Project: High power constant current programmable load
« Reply #62 on: May 31, 2012, 10:19:28 am »
hey

so ,

(1) .I choosed the op07 because of he's low ofset (I can trim it compare with my meter )
so I don't need something that came already at he's offset

(2) . I run a little test , 2X-IRFP064N's in paralel ( no current shearing resistor but 2 -20AWG wiers , each is about 50mohm ) , and at 4.5V I'm getting 13A on about 9.7V . and I don't think it will do (for me anyway ) I plan something on the middle range [0-10A@up to 30V- 150W- HStemp would have been 20C above ambient at full load-or just saying 2CPU's HS- each one at 75W will last 30+years :P ]

(3) . im afraid I can't run the test , I have no scope and no DDS (etc ) -at the moment

can you give me a name of high speed ,low offset (below 10uV -for high current sensing with "low" resistance shunt ) as for the cost , I'd like to don't go above 5$ per unit , but it's up to the product :P

thank you in advance !


 

Offline amspire

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Re: Project: High power constant current programmable load
« Reply #63 on: May 31, 2012, 11:56:17 am »
hey

so ,

(1) .I choosed the op07 because of he's low ofset (I can trim it compare with my meter )
so I don't need something that came already at he's offset
You can definitely try it.
Quote

(2) . I run a little test , 2X-IRFP064N's in paralel ( no current shearing resistor but 2 -20AWG wiers , each is about 50mohm ) , and at 4.5V I'm getting 13A on about 9.7V . and I don't think it will do (for me anyway ) I plan something on the middle range [0-10A@up to 30V- 150W- HStemp would have been 20C above ambient at full load-or just saying 2CPU's HS- each one at 75W will last 30+years :P ]

You cannot successfully parallel IRFP064N. They will not share properly, and the sharing will get worse as they get hotter. You really need to use two single IRFP064N's instead.
This is not a sensitive gate mosfet, so you cannot use is with a low voltage mosfet, like I suggested. Typical gate voltage will be around 5V.
Quote

(3) . im afraid I can't run the test , I have no scope and no DDS (etc ) -at the moment

can you give me a name of high speed ,low offset (below 10uV -for high current sensing with "low" resistance shunt ) as for the cost , I'd like to don't go above 5$ per unit , but it's up to the product :P

thank you in advance !
Speed often isn't important.  It is very hard to beat the Microchip opamp for offset and performance. As I said, it is much better then an adjusted OP07 as the temperature coefficient is much better. Price is well under $2. Sure you cannot find a sensitive gate mosfet? I admit I haven't looked.

Richard.
 

Offline eevblogfan

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Re: Project: High power constant current programmable load
« Reply #64 on: June 01, 2012, 04:49:43 am »
thank you richard !


what do you mean by "sensitive gate mosfet" ?
lower vgs(th) or lower gate charge ?

I know I cant parallel them like this , I only had few lm324's and others so I drove the gates  via the e-3610A , (at about 3.8V the IRFP064N began to draw current ) in order to not kill them ( fast current surge->output high for the gate -> low RDS(on)-> short -> bang

what sort of mosfet you'll recommend for such a use/abuse :P

BTW , I discover the problem I had with the huge heat sink , the thermal contact was atrocious , the terminal shrews weren't god at all , they was "pressed" upwards , so I took a bass bar and connected the 2 shrews to the edges , and via the bass bar I pressed the mosfets , I left it to work at 200W (without fan - ) ,it was 62C (HS temp ) and about 80-85C the surface of the mosfet ( I think the junction  is like 20C more ) , the heat sink should handle (with fan  ) 333W at only 20C above ambient ! ( and with a better fan , oh ->much more ! )

when you say I can try the op07 , do you serious or joking ? (I can't figure out -sorry ...P )

I'm asking because there's ebay seller selling them for 20$ word wild shipping for 50 pcs , is it worth something ?

and why can't I use npn/pnp transistor on the output of you're op amp ?  and if we are talking about chopper op amps , why that one (I'm trying to understand your considerations )

hank you in advance !


 

 

Offline amspire

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Re: Project: High power constant current programmable load
« Reply #65 on: June 01, 2012, 05:17:14 am »
thank you richard !


what do you mean by "sensitive gate mosfet" ?
lower vgs(th) or lower gate charge ?
Yes. There are mosfets designed to be driven from 5V circuits, and so their gate voltages are specified to be less then this.
Quote

I know I cant parallel them like this , I only had few lm324's and others so I drove the gates  via the e-3610A , (at about 3.8V the IRFP064N began to draw current ) in order to not kill them ( fast current surge->output high for the gate -> low RDS(on)-> short -> bang

what sort of mosfet you'll recommend for such a use/abuse :P
Everything blows if you take them outside their limits.  :(
Quote

BTW , I discover the problem I had with the huge heat sink , the thermal contact was atrocious , the terminal shrews weren't god at all , they was "pressed" upwards , so I took a bass bar and connected the 2 shrews to the edges , and via the bass bar I pressed the mosfets , I left it to work at 200W (without fan - ) ,it was 62C (HS temp ) and about 80-85C the surface of the mosfet ( I think the junction  is like 20C more ) , the heat sink should handle (with fan  ) 333W at only 20C above ambient ! ( and with a better fan , oh ->much more ! )

when you say I can try the op07 , do you serious or joking ? (I can't figure out -sorry ...P )
You can try them.

OP07 has no open loop phase graphs, so all I can go on is the open Loop gain and the unity gain response graphs that suggest to me that it may not be an easy opamp to use at Unity gain, but the spec sheets are vague. If I was considering using them regardless, I would have to do my own tests.
Quote

I'm asking because there's ebay seller selling them for 20$ word wild shipping for 50 pcs , is it worth something ?

They may be good, but are they genuine or not?  It is hard to know when you buy parts below normal market prices on ebay. The cheapest price I could see at Mouser was 36c if you got a reel of 2500 SMD OP07s.

If you go for the cheap ebay ones, you will definitely have to test them to check they perform to the OP07 specs before you start building many modules.
Quote

and why can't I use npn/pnp transistor on the output of you're op amp ?  and if we are talking about chopper op amps , why that one (I'm trying to understand your considerations )

hank you in advance !

I would really try and get the circuit stable before compensation, just so with an extra capacitor across the opamp, you may be able to make it even better.

To get it stable, I would need to know what phase margin I have with the opamp (not specified for the OP07) and I would then attempt to design a transistor driver + mosfet circuit that has a low enough phase shift to keep the total below 170 degrees total phase shift at the opamps maximum frequency. It all comes down to what gate capacitance the mosfet has. What the effective gate capacitance in source follower mode (it is hugely decreased - depending on the mosfet transconductance). What is the emitter resistor on the NPN transistor - the lower, the less the phase shift.

If you learn how to use LTSpice, you can work on this at no cost. It is possible to get models into LTspice for devices not in the default library, and it allows you to work at any voltage and any current without anything blowing up, and without needing sources of massive current. There is sure to be a model for the OP07, and if it is a good model, it may help you understand how it works at unity gain.

That is where I would start.

Richard.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2012, 05:23:09 am by amspire »
 

Offline eevblogfan

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Re: Project: High power constant current programmable load
« Reply #66 on: June 01, 2012, 05:32:35 am »
thank you richard :P

I've orderd the MCP6V26 , throu digikey (it's my first order in digikey , so I hope I did well :P )

can you tell me(either draw) what is the "apropriate" circuit for the mcp6v26 + the IRFP064N ?

thank you in advance !
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Project: High power constant current programmable load
« Reply #67 on: June 02, 2012, 05:16:08 am »
Try this:



I have attached the LTSpice file and it is worth learning how to use it.  Saves a lot of money and time, although models are never perfect.

I don't have time to do a thorough search for the best mosfet, so I found one (IRL3803V - TO220 package) that has a 1000-off budgetary price from International Rectifier of less then $1. A low gate voltage and a decent Safe Operating Area. It is a 30V mosfet and you have not specified any maximum voltage. There are always tradeoffs in choosing devices and if you go for 200V mosfets, you may find that you loose out in other parameters.

http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/irl3803v.pdf

You will not get 100A out of it.  I would start off with 20A and see if you can get to 30A or more, but that all comes down to heatsink efficiency. Before you start with fanciful heatsink efficiencies, see what is practical, and make sure the mosfet can still handle the power at the expected heatsink temperature. You may end up finding that 20A per mosfet is a maximum realistically achievable amount of power with the mosfet I have chosen. If you want a different mosfet, I will leave it to you. The IRFP064N is going to be marginal for gate voltages with the MCP6V26 opamp. You may be able to look at a circuit with a PNP driver transistor so you can get up to 6.2V gate drive for the IRFP064N , but there will be new design issues with that.

The circuit looks pretty stable without the 100p cap, so it looks very promising. Perhaps R2 should be bigger - like 10 ohms, and perhaps R1 should be smaller - like 47 ohms for more speed. Again, I will leave that to you.

If you look at the mosfets that could do 100A, there will be a way to get them to work, but if you can easily get a 20A module to work with much better performance, the smart thing may be to just use fifty 20A modules. At 20A, you only need a 1 milliohm current shunt that can handle 0.5W or more (1W would be great), so you can look at the cheaper surface mount current shunts.

Richard.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2012, 05:56:34 am by amspire »
 

Offline AllenTopic starter

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Re: Project: High power constant current programmable load
« Reply #68 on: June 03, 2012, 05:19:09 am »
I want to use a similar model in Pspice, but I can't find a Pspice model of the MOSFET I want to use.  I found a similar one from the same company, but the Ciss capacitance is much lower (9,000 pF vs 28,000 pF).  Do you think this will make much of a difference in stability analysis?  Or should I just add a capacitor at the gate using the difference in capacitance?

Here is the one in Pspice: http://ixapps.ixys.com/DataSheet/92802.pdf
Here is the one I want to use: http://ixapps.ixys.com/DataSheet/DS100133A%28IXFK-FX230N20T%29.pdf
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Project: High power constant current programmable load
« Reply #69 on: June 03, 2012, 06:27:41 am »
I want to use a similar model in Pspice, but I can't find a Pspice model of the MOSFET I want to use.  I found a similar one from the same company, but the Ciss capacitance is much lower (9,000 pF vs 28,000 pF).  Do you think this will make much of a difference in stability analysis?  Or should I just add a capacitor at the gate using the difference in capacitance?

Here is the one in Pspice: http://ixapps.ixys.com/DataSheet/92802.pdf
Here is the one I want to use: http://ixapps.ixys.com/DataSheet/DS100133A%28IXFK-FX230N20T%29.pdf

Mosfet's are made from lots of standard cells in parallel. So there could easily be a lower current mosfet that looks like it is made from similar cells. Then you may be able to simulate the one you want by paralleling the smaller mosfets in PSpice. Since all the parallel mosfets all use the same model, then gate voltages will match so they will share current perfectly in the simulation.

But  keep in mind that those big IXYS mosfets  will be more difficult to drive, more difficult to make stable, and getting rid of heat from a single super power device is much harder then getting rid of heat from many smaller devices. I would suspect the only way to get rid of 400W-500W heat from a single device is a carefully designed water cooled heatsink.

I have a suspicion that a fan cooled solid aluminum heatsink will just not do it at all. With that much heat coming from a small contact area, even aluminum cannot conduct the heat away fast enough.

The trouble is that the temperature drops in the solid aluminum from the mounting point to the fins will produce huge temperature drops. The end result is you can only get perhaps a third the power from the mosfet that you were hoping for. Lower heat from multiple devices on a heatsink results in far more uniform heat distribution across the heatsink giving much better performance from the heatsink.

Lets say a heatsink costs $50. You can get $40 worth of performance out of the heatsink with 8 mosfets spread evenly, compared to perhaps $15 worth of cooling performance with 2 big mosfets on the same heatsink. Anything you think you are saving is wasted on inefficient heatsinks, and wasted space in the case. You pay much more for less final power.

If you are planning on getting 400W from a single mosfet, you may find it a very hard and slow job. You may never succeed in the time and budget that you have. Getting 80W each from five times the mosfets will be a much more achievable and realistic solution, and you will be able to use standard fan cooled heatsink extrusions.

Richard.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2012, 06:51:24 am by amspire »
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Project: High power constant current programmable load
« Reply #70 on: June 03, 2012, 06:57:55 am »
With regards to stability, the lower the value of the shunt resistor, the easier it will be to achieve stability as the gain loss from the mosfet gate to the shunt resistor is much higher.

If you can stick to 1mOhm shunt resistors, then I think you should be able to get stability from OP07s and even the OPA26 opamps without too much difficulty. With 10 milliohm shunt resistors, you get ten times less error from offset voltages, but stability is harder to achieve.
 

Offline AllenTopic starter

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Re: Project: High power constant current programmable load
« Reply #71 on: June 03, 2012, 08:08:54 am »
Serious question for you.  How do to tolerate Pspice? Every time I come back to it and try to give it another chance, I am suddenly reminded of why I hate it so much.  No matter what I do, I can not run an error-free simulation.  Like "Error - missing node".  What does that even mean? How is it that I can have a voltage source connected to a resistor and get an error?
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Project: High power constant current programmable load
« Reply #72 on: June 03, 2012, 08:26:05 am »
Serious question for you.  How do to tolerate Pspice? Every time I come back to it and try to give it another chance, I am suddenly reminded of why I hate it so much.  No matter what I do, I can not run an error-free simulation.  Like "Error - missing node".  What does that even mean? How is it that I can have a voltage source connected to a resistor and get an error?
A while since I have used PSpice. Did you define a ground node? Spice always has to have a reference node (node 0 or ground) other wise it cannot solve anything.
 

Offline AllenTopic starter

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Re: Project: High power constant current programmable load
« Reply #73 on: June 03, 2012, 08:33:53 am »
Serious question for you.  How do to tolerate Pspice? Every time I come back to it and try to give it another chance, I am suddenly reminded of why I hate it so much.  No matter what I do, I can not run an error-free simulation.  Like "Error - missing node".  What does that even mean? How is it that I can have a voltage source connected to a resistor and get an error?
A while since I have used PSpice. Did you define a ground node? Spice always has to have a reference node (node 0 or ground) other wise it cannot solve anything.

Yes, there is a ground node.  Even the simplest of circuits shown below will not run without an error.

 

Offline amspire

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Re: Project: High power constant current programmable load
« Reply #74 on: June 03, 2012, 08:44:13 am »
Is the ground properly attached? I prefer to drag it away from the wire, and add another wire to connect it.

Also what kind of simulation did you try? Did you just do a DC operating point simulation or a transient simulation? If you tried a transient simulation, is the battery a Spice Voltage Source or just a fixed voltage battery. Transient simulation probably need one valid voltage source.

Can you look at the Spice netlist, as it will probably show the problem.
 


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