Author Topic: Project Yaigol: Fixing Rigol scope design problems.  (Read 79611 times)

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Offline kripton2035

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Re: Project Yaigol: Fixing Rigol scope design problems.
« Reply #225 on: May 19, 2016, 07:42:11 pm »
and as you are american, if you win the taxes only of the keysight makes the price of the rigol ... LOL...

Offline bitseeker

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Re: Project Yaigol: Fixing Rigol scope design problems.
« Reply #226 on: May 20, 2016, 03:26:32 am »
Yeah, spend a Rigol, get a Keysight. Sounds like a good deal to me. :-+
I TEA.
 

Online Fungus

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« Last Edit: May 23, 2016, 02:31:35 am by Fungus »
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Project Yaigol: Fixing Rigol scope design problems.
« Reply #228 on: May 25, 2016, 05:06:04 pm »
Looks like Keysight engineers understand PLL design much better than Rigol engineers!  :popcorn:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-dsox2024-won't-boot/

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oh-no!-i'm-never-buying-any-agilent-keysight-equiment-ever-again!/
Of course they do. They detect if there is no PLL lock. Rigol just silently outputs the variable frequency jittery crap into the ADC clock.
 

Online hendorog

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Re: Project Yaigol: Fixing Rigol scope design problems.
« Reply #229 on: May 25, 2016, 05:20:19 pm »
Looks like Keysight engineers understand PLL design much better than Rigol engineers!  :popcorn:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-dsox2024-won't-boot/

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oh-no!-i'm-never-buying-any-agilent-keysight-equiment-ever-again!/
Of course they do. They detect if there is no PLL lock. Rigol just silently outputs the variable frequency jittery crap into the ADC clock.

But it seems to still meet its specs? Are you saying it was over-engineered? :popcorn:
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Project Yaigol: Fixing Rigol scope design problems.
« Reply #230 on: May 25, 2016, 05:30:41 pm »
Looks like Keysight engineers understand PLL design much better than Rigol engineers!  :popcorn:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-dsox2024-won't-boot/

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oh-no!-i'm-never-buying-any-agilent-keysight-equiment-ever-again!/
Of course they do. They detect if there is no PLL lock. Rigol just silently outputs the variable frequency jittery crap into the ADC clock.

But it seems to still meet its specs? Are you saying it was over-engineered? :popcorn:
Who meet the specs, Rigol? Certainly was not the case For DS1054Z because it had apparent effects on the waveform captured. Until they firmware(ish) kinda "almost" fixed non locking PLL, almost because the clock still remained not that clean, and it's not certain if 100% of the scopes became good enough to not have visible issues. This varies from scope to scope and you don't know how bad your particular unit is.
As of Keysight, scope checks and informs you if PLL gone wrong, therefore you know when the scope cannot be trusted.
 

Online hendorog

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Re: Project Yaigol: Fixing Rigol scope design problems.
« Reply #231 on: May 25, 2016, 05:51:31 pm »
Looks like Keysight engineers understand PLL design much better than Rigol engineers!  :popcorn:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-dsox2024-won't-boot/

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oh-no!-i'm-never-buying-any-agilent-keysight-equiment-ever-again!/
Of course they do. They detect if there is no PLL lock. Rigol just silently outputs the variable frequency jittery crap into the ADC clock.

But it seems to still meet its specs? Are you saying it was over-engineered? :popcorn:
Who meet the specs, Rigol? Certainly was not the case For DS1054Z because it had apparent effects on the waveform captured. Until they firmware(ish) kinda "almost" fixed non locking PLL, almost because the clock still remained not that clean, and it's not certain if 100% of the scopes became good enough to not have visible issues. This varies from scope to scope and you don't know how bad your particular unit is.
As of Keysight, scope checks and informs you if PLL gone wrong, therefore you know when the scope cannot be trusted.

It was discussed on page 4 of this thread - about DS2k not the earlier issue about DS1k. AFAIK no-one found any problem with the DS2k in operation. Doesn't that deserve some more scrutiny? How come it doesn't matter? Is it being hidden by the poor FFT?

I think the DS1k problem was only visible once the data was extracted from the scope and an FFT run outside the scope? Perhaps that is also the case here.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Project Yaigol: Fixing Rigol scope design problems.
« Reply #232 on: May 25, 2016, 05:59:10 pm »
I think the DS1k problem was only visible once the data was extracted from the scope and an FFT run outside the scope? Perhaps that is also the case here.
No, it was perfectly visible on the scope screen. Dave even made a video about this.
 

Online hendorog

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Re: Project Yaigol: Fixing Rigol scope design problems.
« Reply #233 on: May 25, 2016, 06:07:58 pm »
I think the DS1k problem was only visible once the data was extracted from the scope and an FFT run outside the scope? Perhaps that is also the case here.
No, it was perfectly visible on the scope screen. Dave even made a video about this.


Ah yeah, but that was fixed by a firmware update - I was talking about what was left after the firmware update. I'm trying to find it now...
 

Online tautech

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Re: Project Yaigol: Fixing Rigol scope design problems.
« Reply #234 on: May 25, 2016, 06:08:28 pm »
It was discussed on page 4 of this thread - about DS2k not the earlier issue about DS1k.
You must have missed following this link in the OP:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg552777/#msg552777
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Online hendorog

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Re: Project Yaigol: Fixing Rigol scope design problems.
« Reply #235 on: May 25, 2016, 06:15:17 pm »
It was discussed on page 4 of this thread - about DS2k not the earlier issue about DS1k.
You must have missed following this link in the OP:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg552777/#msg552777

Yep but I believe also prior to the update which resolved it to the point where it behaved normally.

Buds investigation was on what was left behind after the update.
 

Online tautech

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Re: Project Yaigol: Fixing Rigol scope design problems.
« Reply #236 on: May 25, 2016, 06:26:08 pm »
It was discussed on page 4 of this thread - about DS2k not the earlier issue about DS1k.
You must have missed following this link in the OP:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg552777/#msg552777

Yep but I believe also prior to the update which resolved it to the point where it behaved normally.

Buds investigation was on what was left behind after the update.
I ask you how can a FW update fix a PLL design error, it can't, it only masks the problems it creates.

Buds investigation follows on from what was discovered in the DS1054Z WITH a DS2072A and confirms there's been an error in design, so bad that the PLL manufacturers datasheets layout recommendations appear to have been totally ignored.

Look, all manufactures make mistakes and there's many examples in threads here, this is just another one.
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Online hendorog

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Re: Project Yaigol: Fixing Rigol scope design problems.
« Reply #237 on: May 25, 2016, 06:35:51 pm »
It was discussed on page 4 of this thread - about DS2k not the earlier issue about DS1k.
You must have missed following this link in the OP:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg552777/#msg552777

Yep but I believe also prior to the update which resolved it to the point where it behaved normally.

Buds investigation was on what was left behind after the update.
I ask you how can a FW update fix a PLL design error, it can't, it only masks the problems it creates.

Buds investigation follows on from what was discovered in the DS1054Z WITH a DS2072A and confirms there's been an error in design, so bad that the PLL manufacturers datasheets layout recommendations appear to have been totally ignored.

Look, all manufactures make mistakes and there's many examples in threads here, this is just another one.

Yep a firmware upgrade _can_ resolve a PLL error. I know this because I just built one and the relationship between the physical components and the settings was important enough to make the difference between not locking, locking with massive spurs, and locking with minimal spurs. (that was the best I could do on that board because I ignored the manufacturers advice, new PCB on the way :) )

I completely agree with your second point - they screwed up. But Keysight screwed up too, the only difference was that they detected their screwup and charged $2k to fix it...

But my original point stands -  at least for the DS2k it actually doesn't seem to matter. No-one has yet been able to explain _why_ it doesn't matter.
 

Online tautech

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Re: Project Yaigol: Fixing Rigol scope design problems.
« Reply #238 on: May 25, 2016, 06:50:29 pm »
It was discussed on page 4 of this thread - about DS2k not the earlier issue about DS1k.
You must have missed following this link in the OP:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-683-rigol-ds1000z-ds2000-oscilloscope-jitter-problems/msg552777/#msg552777

Yep but I believe also prior to the update which resolved it to the point where it behaved normally.

Buds investigation was on what was left behind after the update.
I ask you how can a FW update fix a PLL design error, it can't, it only masks the problems it creates.

Buds investigation follows on from what was discovered in the DS1054Z WITH a DS2072A and confirms there's been an error in design, so bad that the PLL manufacturers datasheets layout recommendations appear to have been totally ignored.

Look, all manufactures make mistakes and there's many examples in threads here, this is just another one.

Yep a firmware upgrade _can_ resolve a PLL error. I know this because I just built one and the relationship between the physical components and the settings was important enough to make the difference between not locking, locking with massive spurs, and locking with minimal spurs. (that was the best I could do on that board because I ignored the manufacturers advice, new PCB on the way :)
Well we learn something every day....thanks.
Do consider sharing your Yaigol design *moment* in another thread, I'm sure we'll all learn from your experience.  ;)

Quote
I completely agree with your second point - they screwed up. But Keysight screwed up too, the only difference was that they detected their screwup and charged $2k to fix it...
But that's not over yet.....once the word get out more and other user/owners that have had to pay for the fix find out....shit anything could happen, court cases, recalls, hey it's all happened to manufacturers before.  :popcorn:

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Offline wraper

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Re: Project Yaigol: Fixing Rigol scope design problems.
« Reply #239 on: May 25, 2016, 06:59:13 pm »
But Keysight screwed up too, the only difference was that they detected their screwup and charged $2k to fix it...
There is a big difference between screwed up design and faulty particular unit. Also, don't forget about that it is Brazil, prices will be 2x+ of the US.
Quote
detected their screwup and charged $2k to fix it...
After warranty has already expired.
 

Online hendorog

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Re: Project Yaigol: Fixing Rigol scope design problems.
« Reply #240 on: May 25, 2016, 07:12:19 pm »

I ask you how can a FW update fix a PLL design error, it can't, it only masks the problems it creates.

Buds investigation follows on from what was discovered in the DS1054Z WITH a DS2072A and confirms there's been an error in design, so bad that the PLL manufacturers datasheets layout recommendations appear to have been totally ignored.

Look, all manufactures make mistakes and there's many examples in threads here, this is just another one.

Yep a firmware upgrade _can_ resolve a PLL error. I know this because I just built one and the relationship between the physical components and the settings was important enough to make the difference between not locking, locking with massive spurs, and locking with minimal spurs. (that was the best I could do on that board because I ignored the manufacturers advice, new PCB on the way :)
Well we learn something every day....thanks.
Do consider sharing your Yaigol design *moment* in another thread, I'm sure we'll all learn from your experience.  ;)

Yes I have been thinking about that. I probably will once the new board arrives and I can show some progress.
It was a bit of a journey which started at  'complete disaster' and made it to 'OMG it kinda works' :)

Quote
Quote

I completely agree with your second point - they screwed up. But Keysight screwed up too, the only difference was that they detected their screwup and charged $2k to fix it...
But that's not over yet.....once the word get out more and other user/owners that have had to pay for the fix find out....shit anything could happen, court cases, recalls, hey it's all happened to manufacturers before.  :popcorn:


Agree, that one will be interesting to watch.

 

Online hendorog

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Re: Project Yaigol: Fixing Rigol scope design problems.
« Reply #241 on: May 25, 2016, 07:20:47 pm »
But Keysight screwed up too, the only difference was that they detected their screwup and charged $2k to fix it...
There is a big difference between screwed up design and faulty particular unit.

Yep, but which one is it ??

Quote
detected their screwup and charged $2k to fix it...
After warranty has already expired.
[/quote]

Yes, but that is on a 2.8k scope. Which is not commensurate with an A brand supplier.
If you have to throw away your scope and buy a new one when it breaks then there is no point buying A brand gear.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Project Yaigol: Fixing Rigol scope design problems.
« Reply #242 on: May 25, 2016, 07:39:14 pm »
Yes, but that is on a 2.8k scope. Which is not commensurate with an A brand supplier.
If you have to throw away your scope and buy a new one when it breaks then there is no point buying A brand gear.
Not $2.8k if bought in Brazil. You don't understand how bad it is. Even in EU which is not that bad at all, prices usually are much higher. Though often are comparable for Keysight particularly as for now, after EUR exchange rate started to suck a lot but Keysight pricing in EUR seems not changed much.
Translated from newark/element14 website http://www.newark.com/brazil-direct-ship
Quote
2- Taxes which focuses and how to calculate?
Import Tax: 60% of the Customs Valuation (Customs Value = the value of goods sum + shipping)
ICMS: on average 18%, varying according to the State
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 07:47:05 pm by wraper »
 

Online hendorog

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Re: Project Yaigol: Fixing Rigol scope design problems.
« Reply #243 on: May 25, 2016, 08:12:10 pm »
Wow, those taxes are really bad!!

We have 15% + ~$60 for most items I have imported, and I think that is too much.
Can't do much about exchange rate unfortunately. Our exchange rate was quite favourable against USD too, but now it is not good.



 

Online Fungus

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Re: Project Yaigol: Fixing Rigol scope design problems.
« Reply #244 on: May 25, 2016, 10:21:40 pm »
There is a big difference between screwed up design and faulty particular unit. Also, don't forget about that it is Brazil, prices will be 2x+ of the US.
Quote
detected their screwup and charged $2k to fix it...
After warranty has already expired.

Warranty aside, this really looks like some sort of serious design defect. Keysight could be in big trouble if more people read this thread and say, "That happened to me, too!".
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Project Yaigol: Fixing Rigol scope design problems.
« Reply #245 on: May 25, 2016, 10:50:43 pm »
There is a big difference between screwed up design and faulty particular unit. Also, don't forget about that it is Brazil, prices will be 2x+ of the US.
Quote
detected their screwup and charged $2k to fix it...
After warranty has already expired.

Warranty aside, this really looks like some sort of serious design defect. Keysight could be in big trouble if more people read this thread and say, "That happened to me, too!".
Seriously? PLL fault was not a design defect. All it was unlucky to receive such a scope and not test it in reasonable time period. And WTF Keysight out of warranty discussion is doing in the Rigol tread.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 10:52:26 pm by wraper »
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Project Yaigol: Fixing Rigol scope design problems.
« Reply #246 on: May 25, 2016, 11:04:47 pm »
Warranty aside, this really looks like some sort of serious design defect. Keysight could be in big trouble if more people read this thread and say, "That happened to me, too!".
Seriously? PLL fault was not a design defect. All it was unlucky to receive such a scope and not test it in reasonable time period. And WTF Keysight out of warranty discussion is doing in the Rigol tread.
The 'scope was tested, placed in storage for a while, then refused to boot.

If the firmware is somehow being corrupted (for whatever reason, including "putting it in storage for three months") then that's a design defect.

Keysight has already admitted they've changed the firmware in more recent models so it's easier to re-flash it if it fails. That sounds to me like they've seen a problem.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Project Yaigol: Fixing Rigol scope design problems.
« Reply #247 on: May 25, 2016, 11:12:48 pm »
Warranty aside, this really looks like some sort of serious design defect. Keysight could be in big trouble if more people read this thread and say, "That happened to me, too!".
Seriously? PLL fault was not a design defect. All it was unlucky to receive such a scope and not test it in reasonable time period. And WTF Keysight out of warranty discussion is doing in the Rigol tread.
The 'scope was tested, placed in storage for a while, then refused to boot.

If the firmware is somehow being corrupted (for whatever reason, including "putting it in storage for three months") then that's a design defect.

Keysight has already admitted they've changed the firmware in more recent models so it's easier to re-flash it if it fails. That sounds to me like they've seen a problem.
Maybe you should read it one more time? His scope with no boot issue was replaced IIRC after about 2.5 years. He briefly tested the replacement and put it into storage. Then when 3 year warranty already passed, he started to use the scope, after 2 hour heat up he got PLL error. Now his scope fails after about 40 minutes. Nothing to do with no boot issue which BTW is honored with free repair even after warranty has ended.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Project Yaigol: Fixing Rigol scope design problems.
« Reply #248 on: May 25, 2016, 11:28:34 pm »
Maybe you should read it one more time?

Maybe I should, it's hard to remember which of all the failed Keysights 'we're actually talking about.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Project Yaigol: Fixing Rigol scope design problems.
« Reply #249 on: May 26, 2016, 02:38:37 am »
Maybe you should read it one more time?

Maybe I should, it's hard to remember which of all the failed Keysights 'we're actually talking about.
:palm: Your will to bash everyone except holy Rigol is just amazing. I'm talking about The Keysight form Brazil (link you posted in this tread). Get your facts right, before blaming some manufacturer for commited crimes.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 02:40:56 am by wraper »
 


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