EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Electronics => Projects, Designs, and Technical Stuff => Topic started by: bostonman on May 26, 2022, 02:31:57 am
-
Has anyone experienced a phenomena where your TV remote doesn't work, you remove the batteries (or maybe spin them), reinsert them, and the remote works fine?
I've seen this with other remotes, but I have a fairly new TV (about six-months old) and I'm having a similar issue. The set of batteries that came with the remote seemed to die quickly which I thought was odd. I had old batteries from another remote and those died within a few weeks.
Now I've installed new batteries and the remote wasn't working. I removed them, measured about 1.4V, reinserted them, and the remote worked fine. Now it periodically requires me to perform the same steps of reinserting them.
I'm curious if anyone knows why this happens (it also happens with my car remote - I need to just spin the CR battery without removing it).
Although I never owned a Nintendo, my understanding is people would remove the game cartridge, blow on the gold fingers, reinsert it, and it would work. Maybe it's the same magic as the batteries.
-
Yep I have - it's just a bad battery connection. I have the same issue with a beard trimmer too. The battery contacts they use are El Cheepo and don't make good electrical contact.
-
I've had similar resuscitations when merely rotating cylindrical batteries in their holders to improve the contact.
-
modern remotes don't use hardware IR transmitters anymore. They are all micro's running firmware. firmware with bugs.
i have a Fire TV. it uses a bluetooth remote. that thing eats batteries ! .they barely last one month. my vizio tv is 7 years old and still using its original batteries from some weird brand. (maxwon or something).
but this new remote has a microphone for alexa and other crap i never use.
-
modern remotes don't use hardware IR transmitters anymore. They are all micro's running firmware. firmware with bugs.
i have a Fire TV. it uses a bluetooth remote. that thing eats batteries ! .they barely last one month
This explains a great deal.
The ones that came with the remote (as usual) are some no name. When they died, I thought it was odd because usually batteries last years, but thought they were just really cheap. The second set I used were old ones that died quickly and attributed them to being low and sitting around.
The recent ones were brand new and were measuring 1.4V after less than a month. I didn't measure the current draw, but measured the resistance in case something was low resistance to ground. So far the remote has been working, but, as mentioned, need to move or reinsert the batteries.
-
modern remotes don't use hardware IR transmitters anymore. They are all micro's running firmware. firmware with bugs.
i have a Fire TV. it uses a bluetooth remote. that thing eats batteries ! .they barely last one month
This explains a great deal.
The ones that came with the remote (as usual) are some no name. When they died, I thought it was odd because usually batteries last years, but thought they were just really cheap. The second set I used were old ones that died quickly and attributed them to being low and sitting around.
The recent ones were brand new and were measuring 1.4V after less than a month. I didn't measure the current draw, but measured the resistance in case something was low resistance to ground. So far the remote has been working, but, as mentioned, need to move or reinsert the batteries.
the old ITT SAA1250 remote transmitter consumed 10microamps. That means that, running from 4 AA batteries it had 150.000 hours of runtime ( assuming 1500mAh batteries). that's 17 years ! on a set of batteries. the IR bursts are very short. so with average use you;d still get 10 years out of a set of batteries. Most good alkaline AA are 2500maH or more.. you do the math.
The same goes for phones. My old Nokia 3310 could be in standby for over two weeks. My latest greatest fruitphone barely goes a day. What they hell are they doing ? The screen is off, only the GSM radio needs to run ( just like the nokia. The radio runs in receive, listening for incoming call or SMS.). if my phone is idle. and it can be done on moderns smartphones. the Nokia 2 (HMD design) has 56 day standby time !
-
Wiping the contacts with some Deoxit can work wonders.
-
Could it be fretting corrosion? :-//
I know a product that would give false low battery alarms and it was traced to this.
G
-
no need to remove batteries, just wack the remote on the couch arm a few times since some type of spring device is always at one end.
-
Wiping the contacts with some Deoxit can work wonders.
What's the difference between this and electronic cleaner?
-
What's the difference between this and electronic cleaner?
About £10 a tin
-
At such low voltage any reduction in contact resistance helps. Touching the batteries will also warm them to some extent.
Many TVs still ship with IR remotes, I think the RF remotes are mostly for the streaming sticks and higher end TVs. At least a couple years back even the lower end Roku was IR
-
the old ITT SAA1250 remote transmitter consumed 10microamps. That means that, running from 4 AA batteries it had 150.000 hours of runtime ( assuming 1500mAh batteries). that's 17 years ! on a set of batteries. the IR bursts are very short. so with average use you;d still get 10 years out of a set of batteries. Most good alkaline AA are 2500maH or more.. you do the math.
+ self discharge
fingery acids/fats and sweat come handy when they come in contact with metals
-
What's the difference between this and electronic cleaner?
About £10 a tin
I find that a thin smear of Vaselline on the contacts works very well, and is typically free. It also provides a small amount of contact plating protection for when the batteries inevitably start to leak.
-
modern remotes don't use hardware IR transmitters anymore. They are all micro's running firmware. firmware with bugs.
i have a Fire TV. it uses a bluetooth remote. that thing eats batteries ! .they barely last one month. my vizio tv is 7 years old and still using its original batteries from some weird brand. (maxwon or something).
but this new remote has a microphone for alexa and other crap i never use.
The batteries on our Amazon Fire TV stick lasts for about a year - still a far cry from the remote control consumption, but not a taxing issue. I wonder if the Alexa is not fully disabled and is listening 24/7 for all sounds in the room - my wife disabled ours so I don't have the details (she is the TV person in our house).
Regardless, the Bluetooth is so bad on this thing that it takes quite a while for the Fire stick to react to the remote commands. I much prefer the Roku on the other room that is full IR.
To the OP: Indeed the battery contacts are usually crap. Some steel wool usually helps for me.
-
If you have a classic IR remote control you can add a cap (10 µF or so) in parallel with the battery to get a little bit more juice out of the batteries.
-
the Bluetooth is so bad on this thing that it takes quite a while for the Fire stick to react to the remote commands.
Which version?
I have one of the original Fire TV sticks, and it's painfully slow to do just about everything. Takes ages to boot too.
The later 4K and 4K MAX versions are incomparably better. No issues with those at all.
-
Not to deviate or complain, but what is wrong with remote controls lately?
For years all the Comcast remote/cable box in the house have quirks. They randomly run slow, don't change channels, the remotes stop working, etc... I go to Comcast to complain, they take the box and/or remote, toss it in a bin, and hand me another piece of junk. They don't do any investigating, note the failure, etc...
Years ago I had an issue where if I programmed the Comcast remote to control the volume on the TV, it would stop controlling the cable box. I brought the remote back and asked for help. The guy tossed the remote in the bin without delaying and handed me a new remote. This series of events continued about five times with the same guy. I kept demanding they do something and they kept telling me each new remote they handed me was bad when I complained.
A brand new Vizio TV and I've gone through two sets of batteries in six-months. Every so often the remote stops working forcing me to reinsert the batteries (hence the topic of this thread). Plus, I have a thumbdrive in the back and every few days it locks where it won't play anything forcing me to reset power to the TV.
-
the Bluetooth is so bad on this thing that it takes quite a while for the Fire stick to react to the remote commands.
Which version?
I have one of the original Fire TV sticks, and it's painfully slow to do just about everything. Takes ages to boot too.
The later 4K and 4K MAX versions are incomparably better. No issues with those at all.
Yeah I just recently had to ditch my original Fire Stick for much the same reason. It had become unbearably slow. Streaming video was fine once it got going, but getting it going was such a chore. The 4K I replaced it with is zippy and smooth as butter.
Same thing happened with my original Chromecast. I don't know what they do to make these things turn into such piles of crap, but there should be laws against it.
-
the Bluetooth is so bad on this thing that it takes quite a while for the Fire stick to react to the remote commands.
Which version?
I have one of the original Fire TV sticks, and it's painfully slow to do just about everything. Takes ages to boot too.
The later 4K and 4K MAX versions are incomparably better. No issues with those at all.
The one we have is, according to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Fire_TV), the second generation (2016). Despite it is a bit long in the typical lifetime of internet gadgets, only recently it started to show some overall slowdown (the remote issues were always a problem, though).
I attribute the overall slowdown to system updates that eat more RAM at every instance and (maybe) more internal Flash storage - after all, the quad core 1.3GHz should be enough to handle quite the workload. For the pace of our current world of disposable gadgets, though, the fact it still works at all is quite impressive.
Same thing happened with my original Chromecast. I don't know what they do to make these things turn into such piles of crap, but there should be laws against it.
Our original Chromecast (gift of a friend) never saw much action - it was terrible from the start. A friend of mine tried to make it work on his HDTV at the time (720p) and, after spending about a day of fruitless efforts, broke it in anger and threw it away. :o
-
Amazing, the two batteries (AAA) are down to 0.8V and the remote isn’t working. The batteries are about a month old and brand new out of the package.
-
I saw something like this a while back, an IR remote that worked but killed batteries in like a week. I didn't diagnose it past washing the board and finding no improvement. I'd guess ESD damage to the chip or maybe the decoupling cap went leaky.
-
It's contact resistance caused by oxidation and/or contamination. The same reason some relays and switches have a minimum load, if you try to use a power relay to switch a low current signal the contacts will eventually develop high resistance. If you clean the battery terminals with some Deoxit that will usually do a good job preventing it. If you live in a high humidity region you could add a smear of dielectric grease to prevent oxidation.
-
This is interesting, I actually didn’t know about the reason behind minimum loads.
This is the only remote doing it and I’m quite sure the original batteries died within a month or two because maybe four-months into owning the TV, I used the remote and discovered they were the most dead I’ve ever measured a battery to be. I don’t remember, but maybe down to 0.3V.
If it matters, it’s a Toshiba model: 43LF621U21
I may have accidentally thought it was a Vizio. It’s a TV I don’t use often, but thanks to quick draining batteries, it’s more of a hassle to try navigating TV menus when I need to because the batteries always need to be replaced first.
-
It's a 'life hack' as old as remote controllers. Rubbing the contacts on your denim jeans is another technique. You can use someone elses jeans, but ask them first ;)
On a cold day, warm the remote on a central heating radiator to 'recharge' the alkalines.
On the subject of remotes, our ROKU controller is a complete prima donna with battery brands. Some work fine, others just parfffff. The battery orientation is 'unique'.
-
I'm buying new batteries today and will try measuring the current draw.
This is ridiculous that I've gone through three sets of batteries in about six-months and I almost never use the remote until recently when I began watching stuff on a thumb drive plugged into the TV - so I need the remote to navigate the TV menus.
-
Sometimes the remote has ceramic capacitors in it that are leaky, either from damage during manufacture, or just from handling. So if you can actually open the remote look on the supply rails, and replace any small ceramic capacitors across the supply rails, pretty much with almost any ceramic capacitor, though I have used 10uf 10V tantalum capacitors borrowed off some other board to replace them very often. Solder the LED connections, soldered in components and battery connectors if they are solder in, and clean the top of the board, where the carbon contacts are ,with IPA, along with the silicone rubber membrane with the rubber bumps, so that there is no leakage. This often fixes a lot of issues, and clean battery contacts and battery ends with IPA as well, and a thin smear of oil on the contacts to keep them corroding as much.
Generally helps a lot, and often the problem is just the actual controller itself, being made cheaply, and attached to a porous SRBP board as a COB, drawing excess current from internal leakage.
-
The same goes for phones. My old Nokia 3310 could be in standby for over two weeks. My latest greatest fruitphone barely goes a day. What they hell are they doing ? The screen is off, only the GSM radio needs to run ( just like the nokia. The radio runs in receive, listening for incoming call or SMS.). if my phone is idle. and it can be done on moderns smartphones. the Nokia 2 (HMD design) has 56 day standby time !
Your modern smartphone is doing a lot more than that, it's a fullblown computer and it is active and communicating all the time. That's how all manner of other apps can notify you, for example I have Slack I use for work, and my security cameras, and my home automation, and a few other apps can notify me. You may only use yours for phone calls and SMS, but most people run a far broader range of apps and the phone is designed around that ability.
-
I checked the current draw with brand new batteries (keep in mind this TV/remove is only approximately six-months-old making it hard to believe it's broken).
Immediately when I connect the meter, I see about 9 - 10mA for about a second or two. Afterwards it seems to vary between 1.8mA and 2.1mA (I'm calling it 2mA).
Looking at the Duracell datasheet for AAA batteries, at 5mA (which is the lowest the graph goes), I see about 260 'service hours' before the voltage drops to 0.9v. To make the math easier, I'm rounding up to 2.5mA, so I'm doubling the time for 5mA since the remote is drawing "half" the current, and calculating 22-days before the batteries drop to 0.9v.
This matches quite closely with how long the batteries are actually lasting.
This is horrible. Assuming the remote isn't broken, what company in their right mind would make a remote that kills batteries monthly? I thought the goal was to decrease emissions? At new batteries monthly, that means twenty-four batteries per year are being wasted.
Meanwhile Toshiba gets a pat on the back from the government for making a energy efficient TV, but the shell game being played is to use valuable resources to make batteries.
-
To be honest, I would disassemble the remote and thoroughly wash it with IPA and check any capacitors as suggested by SeanB above. That current consumption is far from "leakage" - it is a whole open faucet!
-
I remember they days of AA's in walkmans.
Once your AA's were almost empty and the walkman started to sound a bit slow, you would remove the cells and bite the metal casing with your teeth to put lots of dents all over them. Then put them back in and you'd get 15-30min more runtime.
Something about crushing the cell (maybe more internal pressure) improved it's current/capacity delivery and allowed you to squeeze more runtime out of an empty cell.
-
To be honest, I would disassemble the remote and thoroughly wash it with IPA and check any capacitors as suggested by SeanB above. That current consumption is far from "leakage" - it is a whole open faucet!
Thats actually a pretty typical current consumption for a cheap RF remote! Be careful when buying a modern appliance.
-
I remember they days of AA's in walkmans.
Once your AA's were almost empty and the walkman started to sound a bit slow, you would remove the cells and bite the metal casing with your teeth to put lots of dents all over them. Then put them back in and you'd get 15-30min more runtime.
Something about crushing the cell (maybe more internal pressure) improved it's current/capacity delivery and allowed you to squeeze more runtime out of an empty cell.
Or heating them, soaking them on some waste heat seemed to bring back that extra %
-
To be honest, I would disassemble the remote and thoroughly wash it with IPA and check any capacitors as suggested by SeanB above. That current consumption is far from "leakage" - it is a whole open faucet!
Thats actually a pretty typical current consumption for a cheap RF remote! Be careful when buying a modern appliance.
Standby power in this order of magnitude is quite high, unless the remote has some sort of spy service (Alexa, Nest, etc.). For an IR (typical of TV sets), this is massive.
-
Standby power in this order of magnitude is quite high, unless the remote has some sort of spy service (Alexa, Nest, etc.). For an IR (typical of TV sets), this is massive.
I've never designed anything with batteries that couldn't be turned off, and most of my experience is with AC/DC, so initially I thought 2mA was quite low until I looked at the datasheet.
Thats actually a pretty typical current consumption for a cheap RF remote! Be careful when buying a modern appliance.
I think the agreed answer is that this is too high. The datasheet shows at 2mA, I'd be replacing the batteries monthly, so it can't be a typical current load.
I'm wondering if someone pushed a button or a series of buttons at one point and activated some feature where it keeps the remote in constant alert thus drawing the high current. Looking online, I've seen people do a "factory reset" which I may try (I think one video showed the guy remove the batteries, hold down power for ten-seconds, push every button on the remote, and reinsert the batteries - no idea why this solves issues since the batteries are not installed).
The other options are sending an email to the company and disassembling it as suggested.
-
To be honest, I would disassemble the remote and thoroughly wash it with IPA and check any capacitors as suggested by SeanB above. That current consumption is far from "leakage" - it is a whole open faucet!
Thats actually a pretty typical current consumption for a cheap RF remote! Be careful when buying a modern appliance.
Standby power in this order of magnitude is quite high, unless the remote has some sort of spy service (Alexa, Nest, etc.). For an IR (typical of TV sets), this is massive.
Except the OP has conveniently managed to avoid telling us the model or showing a picture. So we don't know the communication method either way. I specifically said, typical for cheap/crappy RF. Others have had similarly bad experience:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/roku-needs-recall/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/roku-needs-recall/)
-
Except the OP has conveniently managed to avoid telling us the model or showing a picture.
I did post the TV model.
If it matters, it’s a Toshiba model: 43LF621U21
-
Except the OP has conveniently managed to avoid telling us the model or showing a picture.
I did post the TV model.
If it matters, it’s a Toshiba model: 43LF621U21
But you have a problem with the remote.... trying to wade through the marketing/sales crap associated with the TV model to find details about the remote associated with it :(
-
Does a picture from the manual help or is more information needed?
-
Does a picture from the manual help or is more information needed?
yup. that's the fucker that eats batteries like crazy ! same remote here.
-
Your modern smartphone is doing a lot more than that, it's a fullblown computer and it is active and communicating all the time. That's how all manner of other apps can notify you, for example I have Slack I use for work, and my security cameras, and my home automation, and a few other apps can notify me. You may only use yours for phone calls and SMS, but most people run a far broader range of apps and the phone is designed around that ability.
if the screen is off it shouldn't do didly squat. i got all that notification crap turned off. no pings, ploings, dingelings or other disturbances. All that needs to run is the GSM radio listening for an incoming call or SMS , just like the Nokia did.
Smartphones should have an ability to turn all that crap that keeps running off. screen off means everything sleep. i am not actively using the phone so it doesn't need to do anything. if i open the email app it is ok to fetch the stuff then and there. i don't want all that "push" stuff.
my phone is there so i can bug other people if i need to, not for other people to bug me.
-
yup. that's the fucker that eats batteries like crazy ! same remote here.
This is crazy. How could they design something that eats batteries monthly?
-
yup. that's the fucker that eats batteries like crazy ! same remote here.
This is crazy. How could they design something that eats batteries monthly?
Because that's your cost to bear, not theirs. So they don't care (externalized costs). Features sell in consumer space, few consider the lifetime cost/consequences.
-
Maybe I can buy a 3rd party remote to control the menu.
Basically all I need is to select the USB port and navigate. The other buttons are useless to me as the cable remote handles power and volume.
-
yup. that's the fucker that eats batteries like crazy ! same remote here.
This is crazy. How could they design something that eats batteries monthly?
Probably by not paying enough to the people who designed it.
-
yup. that's the fucker that eats batteries like crazy ! same remote here.
This is crazy. How could they design something that eats batteries monthly?
Probably by not paying enough to the people who designed it.
Or asking for insanely tight schedules.
-
Or, just maybe, it's faulty...?
It looks very similar indeed to an Amazon Fire TV remote - unquestionably designed by the same team. It uses Bluetooth, has complex firmware, and the batteries certainly should last well. Mine do.
I vaguely recall testing the power consumption of mine, when I first got one with a built in microphone. I was curious to see if it was physically capable of listening and doing anything meaningful with audio prior to the Alexa button being pressed, and pleased to see that it's not - based on the amount of power it draws before and after pressing said button.
Of course, firmware can always activate the mic and go into full power mode, either by design, or as a result of malicious code (including malicious code intentionally installed by the device manufacturer). So I opened it up and desoldered the mic, just to be sure. The tip is to pry off the 4-way D-pad first, there's a couple of screws under there which need to be removed. The rest is just clipped together, not too difficult to get apart once you know how.