Author Topic: rifa input caps  (Read 3160 times)

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Offline m3vuvTopic starter

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rifa input caps
« on: March 10, 2022, 08:16:44 pm »
are these needed for a device/appliance to work or just to complie to emc regs?.
 

Offline Benta

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Re: rifa input caps
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2022, 08:23:13 pm »
Originally there to damp switch arcing.
My feeling is, that a lot of times they're just there "for tradition".

 
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Offline SHTechnics

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Re: rifa input caps
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2022, 09:31:28 pm »
The X and Y caps are for limiting the RFI. Watch out for old broken Rifa caps, they tend to blow.
 
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Offline floobydust

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Re: rifa input caps
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2022, 09:53:41 pm »
If they're old, just outright replace them. They can usually be found in mains EMI filters, but also across switches or in snubber networks.
The part does do a few things, so simply pulling them can cause unexpected problems. If they are before a fuse, that is big trouble.

Because they usually affect EMC test results, there is some fear about using a different part (EMC re-test needed) so they persist to be used.
I don't know why their metallized-paper is a selling feature. As if they have magical EMI properties. PME271's are still for sale to this day.
 
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Offline Gyro

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Re: rifa input caps
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2022, 09:57:13 pm »
I don't know why their metallized-paper is a selling feature. As if they have magical EMI properties. PME271's are still for sale to this day.

Higher dV/dt specs than MKP.... When/if it matters.
Best Regards, Chris
 
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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: rifa input caps
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2022, 10:28:37 pm »
Well, what kind of appliance?  Either way, it's a matter of suppressing interference, and perhaps increasing contact life where applicable.  Do you mind having more noise around?  Would others (neighboring radio users)?

Would you saw off the muffler or catalytic converter of your car?

Tim
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Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: rifa input caps
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2022, 10:36:00 pm »
Would you saw off the muffler or catalytic converter of your car?

I don't know about over there, but here, there are quite a few nasty characters who will come and saw your Cat off for you in the wee small hours, like it or not!
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline pqass

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Re: rifa input caps
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2022, 10:53:10 pm »
The X and Y caps are for limiting the RFI. Watch out for old broken Rifa caps, they tend to blow.

They blow up real good!
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: rifa input caps
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2022, 11:22:28 pm »
I find Rifa clear epoxy fails with age, it cracks. From new, unused old ones I had, it's like the core (wrapped part) grows larger, pillows out and cracks the epoxy. Or, the epoxy is shrinking with age. 
It could also be a mains transient taking them out but they are supposedly almost 3kV tested (once, when new) for 250VAC rated parts. After a few decades...

With a stolen catalytic converter, there are mechanics here that just plumb in a bypass pipe so you don't need to spend big money replacing it. We don't have vehicle emissions testing here.
Note the ECU is fully aware of this - vehicles with two O2 sensors (before and after cat) model the cat and expect to see the delay and thermal mass as well- or it sets a trouble code and the Check Engine light turns on.

People that think removing a part has no consequences, well it's there for a reason or two or three.
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: rifa input caps
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2022, 03:31:07 am »
Would you saw off the muffler or catalytic converter of your car?

I don't know about over there, but here, there are quite a few nasty characters who will come and saw your Cat off for you in the wee small hours, like it or not!

I mean... the "would you really do X?" setup is usually meant as a statement, but it could honestly be a plain old question these days...

Say, how big a sack of Rifas do I need to bring to get five bucks at the scrapyard?... :-DD

Tim
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Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 
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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: rifa input caps
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2022, 03:43:43 am »
Note the ECU is fully aware of this - vehicles with two O2 sensors (before and after cat) model the cat and expect to see the delay and thermal mass as well- or it sets a trouble code and the Check Engine light turns on.

People that think removing a part has no consequences, well it's there for a reason or two or three.

Or, say, removing the EGR valve, because, obviously, all those emissions controls bollocks are sapping the raw unfettered power of my engine!

Which I guess the equivalent would be, removing the snubber on an SMPS perhaps; but that's as likely to cause destruction, just due to simple overvoltage.  Which, if it survives, then maybe it does increase efficiency slightly, at the expense of emissions.  (Note: as far as I've heard, EGR actually improves efficiency on modern engines, so it is actually just that ridiculous and self-spiteful to remove it.  It was just the early ones they whined and moaned about having to tack on emissions controls, in the 70s, resulting in gutless and wasteful designs.)

Alas, engines are vastly more complicated machines than almost anything electronic, short of an actual CPU, so this isn't really much of a comparison.  The muffler at least is fair, as it mostly is just acoustic "EMC" filtering (which, still, that's aside from the resonant ones that do affect engine operation).

Tim
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Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 

Offline Haenk

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Re: rifa input caps
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2022, 10:18:41 am »
They blow up real good!

One down (up), couple more to go 8)
 

Offline CaptDon

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Re: rifa input caps
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2022, 02:44:42 pm »
Fortunately here in 120vac land they tend to live a longer life even when compromised with cracks and such. Most of the ones I have removed here in the states were 250VAC rated. What do they use in 240vac land? Seems I have seen some rated at 320VAC on 'dual voltage' supplies. That isn't much margin, especially if you live in a rural area with lots of switching transients and huge EMP from nearby lightning strikes. My friend lived way out in a wooded area and during lightning storms you could hear arcing from the receptacles to the metal boxes they were housed in. You could often see in a darkened room the bluish flash lighting up the white or ivory colored wall plate. He never seemed worried. Well, strangeness of all strangeness, during a hospital stay his house burned to the ground. There was no evidence of arson or vandalism, anything worth stealing was still present in the ashes. It was surmised that lightning caused a smoldering fire that may have lasted a day or so until windows broke from the heat and allowed a raging fire to burn it to the ground. His house had stone walls so thick you could sit in the window sills!!
Collector and repairer of vintage and not so vintage electronic gadgets and test equipment. What's the difference between a pizza and a musician? A pizza can feed a family of four!! Classically trained guitarist. Sound engineer.
 

Offline rfdes

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Re: rifa input caps
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2022, 02:39:37 pm »

Hi - I've been reading up on this 'RIFA' topic and see that old RIFA begin to crack and fail.  I am in the process of replacing some in a '95 vintage test equipment and see that Kemet capacitor still sell the RIFA PME271M style caps.  My question to the group is whether the capacitor design has improved over time where the plastic crazing has been resolved or are they (Kemet) still using the same design ?
In short, should I stray away from new RIFAs?


Thanks
Jim
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: rifa input caps
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2022, 05:58:59 pm »
... My question to the group is whether the capacitor design has improved over time where the plastic crazing has been resolved or are they (Kemet) still using the same design ? ...

You'd hope, wouldn't you. Unfortunately you'll probably need to wait 20 years or so to get a definitive answer. It's pretty much a time related phenomenon, unless they're stored really badly. They're still epoxy, but whether it's the same epoxy, I don't know.
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline wraper

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Re: rifa input caps
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2022, 06:08:31 pm »

Hi - I've been reading up on this 'RIFA' topic and see that old RIFA begin to crack and fail.  I am in the process of replacing some in a '95 vintage test equipment and see that Kemet capacitor still sell the RIFA PME271M style caps.  My question to the group is whether the capacitor design has improved over time where the plastic crazing has been resolved or are they (Kemet) still using the same design ?
In short, should I stray away from new RIFAs?
AFAIK they probably did not improve. I've seen reports of mid 2000's caps failing. And personally have seen them shorting in mains filters in equipment made around 2003-2008. By that time the issue was already well known. I would use PP caps instead. I don't see a single reason you would want to keep using those paper capacitors.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2022, 06:14:40 pm by wraper »
 

Offline rfdes

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Re: rifa input caps
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2022, 11:40:13 pm »
Thanks for the advise.  My only real issue is finding a PP cap that will properly fit the circuit board layout as the lead spacing is 20.3mm.  I'll be able to take whatever I can find and force it to fit.
Take care
 

Offline wraper

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Re: rifa input caps
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2022, 06:58:16 am »
Quote
My only real issue is finding a PP cap that will properly fit the circuit board layout as the lead spacing is 20.3mm
Without knowing capacitance, it does not say anything. If you cannot find PP cap in proper size, then use polyester. They are available in smaller sizes.
 

Offline rfdes

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Re: rifa input caps
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2022, 05:14:44 pm »
Quote
My only real issue is finding a PP cap that will properly fit the circuit board layout as the lead spacing is 20.3mm
Without knowing capacitance, it does not say anything. If you cannot find PP cap in proper size, then use polyester. They are available in smaller sizes.

Hi -

Well the original cap was a Kemet RIFA PME series at 220n/250VAC.  The lead spacing is 20.3mm and I have struggled to find something close enough to drop in.  I ended up buying a 15mm lead spacing PP part and will squeeze it into the spot.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: rifa input caps
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2022, 07:46:37 pm »
Long ago I'd fired off an email to Kemet (Yageo) with pics and mention of the proven hazards of the component - wondering why they still make the Rifa PME271. Didn't hear a peep, no response. Somebody must still be buying and using them.

Nearest standard lead spacing is 15mm or 22.5mm and some have longer leads so you can stuff that in. There's many X, Y safety caps available.
 

Offline SHTechnics

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Re: rifa input caps
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2022, 07:21:47 pm »
The RIFA (now acquired by Kemet) caps are still in production to replace them among others in homologated equipment mostly for government, science institutions. The caps are also self-healing and have a better resin than before.
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: rifa input caps
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2022, 07:34:56 pm »
ahh. The old Pifa capacitors. also use in Paffner (Schaffner) input filters.  :-DD
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Online madires

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Re: rifa input caps
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2022, 07:43:03 pm »
Last week I took an old Cisco PIX firewall from early 2000s apart and found two lovely RIFA caps in the PSU. Cracked of course. Two bangs for your bucks. ;D
 


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