Author Topic: Rotary transformer for power transfer to moving shaft  (Read 8000 times)

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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Rotary transformer for power transfer to moving shaft
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2021, 11:02:41 pm »
Ah cool you have the center to yourself.  A tight fitting pot core should do nicely then, can even hack an opto without too much trouble (but shouldn't need it).

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Offline langwadt

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Re: Rotary transformer for power transfer to moving shaft
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2021, 11:10:38 pm »
I'd agree a resonant topology is likely what you want to efficiently deal with the extra and less controlled leakage inductance that your are likely to encounter. However, you could potentially go with a "simpler" push-pull system and just eat the excess switching losses depending on how much margin (in terms of money, size and weight) you have available to add the extra snubbers and thermal management. Poor regulation can be dealt with using additional stages which shouldn't be too hard with something off-the-shelf (universal mains voltage SMPS?) but again would need to mind margins.

I wonder about the mechanical aspects here.
* What are the loading conditions?
* Will there also be potential non-axial loading e.g. wind or drafts in the installation location?
* How big of a shaft do you need for this chandelier?
* What will the bearing arrangement look like?
* Can the bearing arrangement maintain sufficient runout to stop rubbing under the expected conditions? ​
Leakage flux could lead to inductive heating of the shaft if it is conductive and/or magnetic.
If runout can be well guaranteed then building a tighter and more efficient transformer/wireless power transceiver could be made easier.

I don't think the mechanics will be an issue - there will be a large ring bearing, leaving about 80mm dia in the centre completely clear. The thing will be about 1.5m diameter and weigh about 30 kilos (all carbon fibre) . Budget is not an issue  :D

then something like this, https://www.ato.com/small-through-hole-slip-ring seems like the simple straight forward solution

rated for 20-150M rotations depending on type





 

Offline sandalcandal

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Re: Rotary transformer for power transfer to moving shaft
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2021, 02:26:45 am »
I don't think the mechanics will be an issue - there will be a large ring bearing, leaving about 80mm dia in the centre completely clear. The thing will be about 1.5m diameter and weigh about 30 kilos (all carbon fibre) . Budget is not an issue  :D

As Tim beat me too it, a closely fitting pot core should be feasible to make then. I think the magnetics might be ok but I'm not 100% on the converter still.

In retrospect that "SR" converter circuit I posted earlier could have issues due to magnetising current inductance not being captured by a resonant capacitor. A much higher magnetising inductance could be used? or you could use some sort of choke/ballast as per L1 in your OP example circuit? Would need to run further checks including time-domain simulations...

Whilst this sort of design really piques my interest, practically speaking, a KISS approach using a slip ring may indeed prove the more effective solution still.

Edit:
I think Sam Ben-Yaakov has a number of good lectures on the topic of wireless power transfer.

The circuit topology from your OP is discussed and analysed at 45:45 He refers to it as a push-pull parallel resonant inverter. Searching that term yield lots papers analysing and discussing that topology.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2021, 02:36:21 am by sandalcandal »
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Offline LaserSteve

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Re: Rotary transformer for power transfer to moving shaft
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2021, 03:25:36 am »
This search string got me some juicy hits:

rotary power transfer shaft magnetic

So did:

Contactless Commutator.

First hit was a 1 Kilowatt design. I'll try to link it.

Steve
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Offline LaserSteve

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Re: Rotary transformer for power transfer to moving shaft
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2021, 03:30:34 am »
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/6647032

That is the link mentioned above. Let me know if I need to try to attach the file.

Steve
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Offline Doctorandus_P

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Re: Rotary transformer for power transfer to moving shaft
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2021, 12:08:06 pm »
In your first post you write you want to buy parts "at sensible prices", and make other price related remarks.
Then later you write:

Budget is not an issue  :D

From what I know of your (marvelous) work, it's one-offs art installations or maybe small series, and you have generous budgets to work with.

Somehow I have a suspicion that big pot cores are difficult to make. They have to be baked at high temperatures and the material is brittle and may crack easily during cooling. I suspect that additives that reduce the brittleness also influence magnetic properties.

I've always been confused about the relative high prices of ferrites in general. Baked clay is as cheap as dirt, and  plain steel is a few euro's per kg,  but ferrites can easily cost a few orders of magnitude more and I never really understood why. Even if you look at websites like Aliexpress, big ferrites are never cheap.

https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?SearchText=ferrite+pot+core

Air gaps in magnetics are common, which I also find somewhat contradictory. First you concentrate the field, and then you wreck it with an air gap. Main Idea as I understand is to make the saturation characteristics a lot more gentle. The distance of the airgap has a huge influence on the magnetic properties, so good bearings are essential and the electronics should be able to cope with changing magnetic coupling.

As already stated, sliprings can have a long service life, especially if they do not have to be cut into pieces such as with motor commutators. Maybe it is an option to build a spare slipring somewhere in your gadget. If it then fails 30 years from now and the company who made it once no longer exists, then the person who services it just swaps the worn out slipring with the brand new one sitting next to it.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2021, 12:16:16 pm by Doctorandus_P »
 

Offline Terry Bites

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Re: Rotary transformer for power transfer to moving shaft
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2021, 12:55:48 pm »
Every man and his dog is offering an LLC design tool. TI, NXP, Infineon, ST etc.  All soon to be eaten by CPC- not that one, the other one, the CPC in the east.

The LLC transformer air gap is put to use in the design. The stray field that does not couple to the secondary core increases the primary indcutance.
A bigger air gap can cause unacceptable heating in the primary though. For a 100w the transformer is going to be small.

There is no need to integrate the LLC indcutor into the transformer if the rotary XMFR air gap complicates things too much.  It can be a discrete component. It can even be moved over to the secondary side. Use the regular design tools (maybe https://www.ti.com/design-resources/design-tools-simulation/webench-power-designer.html) and rearrange the results. https://www.edn.com/power-tips-84-think-outside-the-llc-series-resonant-converter-box/  Its all network voodo that I cant be bothered with these days.

BTW You can custom cut ferrite with water jet machining. I've had slots machined into thick glass which is about the same hardness as ferrite. It worked really well and it wasnt very expensive.  Great place in Uxbridge. One of many I'm sure.

You can also stick bits together with a suitable adhesive. http://ferroxcube.home.pl/appl/info/gluing.pdf https://gatewaycando.com/blog/post/machining-bespoke-ferrite-geometries-from.html

Tons of accademic stuff out there with XMFR design equations for ubernerds.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi1tMq64YjzAhU6QEEAHV_QC4gQFnoECAQQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcoefs.uncc.edu%2Fmnoras%2Ffiles%2F2013%2F03%2FTransformer-and-Inductor-Design-Handbook_Chapter_19.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3DiQeVV1ZPZZD7dty_jJnE

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Inductive-power-transfer-system-with-a-rotary-for-Ditze-Endruschat/081530c01555060d6a2d940c060ccabe761bca8a

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjam_bl4YjzAhWGAMAKHUoJBawQFnoECAYQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ti.com%2Fdownload%2Ftrng%2Fdocs%2Fseminar%2FTopic4LD.pdf&usg=AOvVaw37WK5ns6BWDzHjlAO1oLgN


« Last Edit: September 18, 2021, 03:53:30 pm by Terry Bites »
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Rotary transformer for power transfer to moving shaft
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2021, 02:48:53 pm »
Somehow I have a suspicion that big pot cores are difficult to make. They have to be baked at high temperatures and the material is brittle and may crack easily during cooling. I suspect that additives that reduce the brittleness also influence magnetic properties.

Meh, sintering is a well developed science.  More just a matter of, taking the time to tune the shape exactly, in case compensation for differential shrinkage is necessary; and actually making and running the tooling.

There aren't many customers for big ones (over a few cm), and there are better shapes for thermal performance (windings have more cooling in an E or ETD), and high power rarely needs the shielding afforded by something like that.  Large toroids are also moderately available, have seen 6" ones in stock from time to time.  Have used 4" (102mm) ones myself.

Additives of any sort, are forbidden; any (nonmagnetic) impurity would collect at the grain boundaries, effectively increasing airgap, reducing mu_r.  Or dissolve into the ferrite, causing whatever effect it would (probably more hysteresis?).  I'm not aware of anything that has useful impact on brittleness of the fired body, though if you mean for the green (pressed powder) part, there are organic binders to help with that (which burn out, at modest expense to shrinkage).

Neat aside: ferrite is among the ceramics that exhibit ductile deformation, albeit to a very limited extent.  Evidence is found the scratches left by grinding: smooth tracks suggest material being peeled away, while jagged tracks suggest brittle fracture.  You see a bit of both in micrographs, IIRC.

But it's also a rather soft compound (Mohs hardness about uh, 5 is it?), nor very strong (say, comparable to above-average concrete), not at all like a porcelain (mostly silica glass, quite strong, even a bit flexible -- in the elastic range that is).  So, probably any flexibility it might have is balanced by the poor strength, so it's still pretty brittle overall.


Quote
I've always been confused about the relative high prices of ferrites in general. Baked clay is as cheap as dirt, and  plain steel is a few euro's per kg,  but ferrites can easily cost a few orders of magnitude more and I never really understood why. Even if you look at websites like Aliexpress, big ferrites are never cheap.

Yeah well, baked clay doesn't have technical let alone analytical chemical purity. :D

I don't know exactly how tight the formulations are, but every new grade that pushes losses say 10% lower than the previous generation, must be worth a fair amount of development to achieve.  It's not like they're doing that every single year.  On top of that, they have to match the exact composition in production, using good purity feedstocks with careful process control.

As a highly refined, technical material, I'd say it's one of the cheaper things, and indeed the generally cheap elements involved, I would say, are probably partly why.

Consider, for example, an equal volume of epoxy or other fancy plastic resin -- the costs are probably ballpark similar, of course the cheapest (say ABS, etc.) will be less, but the fancy stuff like epoxy, uh UV-cure 3D printing goo, etc., those are highly refined and modified substances, ultimately produced from dirt-cheap (literally) feedstocks (i.e., petroleum for the most part).


Quote
Air gaps in magnetics are common, which I also find somewhat contradictory. First you concentrate the field, and then you wreck it with an air gap. Main Idea as I understand is to make the saturation characteristics a lot more gentle. The distance of the airgap has a huge influence on the magnetic properties, so good bearings are essential and the electronics should be able to cope with changing magnetic coupling.

Indeed, it's all about having the right amount.

Note that energy storage goes as B^2 / (2 mu).  High mu means less energy.

But low mu also hurts, ultimately because copper has some resistance.  If it had zero resistance, we could just let the current circulate forever, whatever the flux density.  But with resistance, energy stored in the inductor has a clock that ticks down very quickly, and we need to compromise between resistance and reactance.

Ideally, we'd have a metal with about 1/20th the resistivity of copper, or less.  This gives slow enough time constants (~ms), in air-cored inductors, that are useful for typical power conversion purposes (if the cutoff frequency is ~1kHz, then a Q of ~100 might be expected at 100kHz, i.e., efficiency ~99%).

Alas, we can't have that outside of cryostats, so we settle for permeable cores.  We need to concentrate the field to make copper more effective, but not so concentrated that our maximum energy storage is hindered.

There are some places where a low-mu (distributed airgap) ferrite would be helpful, but mostly it's better to have the regular stuff in stock, and cut it as needed -- since we can make our own airgap of almost any arbitrary size by cutting.

And again, optimizing production quantity is a big part of the cost of anything.  Big parts aren't so much expensive by sheer volume, as they are by the much smaller scale on which they're produced.  Or, if they run batches of them less often, there's more warehousing cost to store the extra, or more opportunity cost effectively paid by the customers waiting for them when stock runs out, etc...

So also, it's probably better to modify standard cores, which will also then fit in standard bobbins, don't have to do anything custom at all, it's real nice.

And we do suffer some from that, like the intense fringing field around the gap, increasing losses or necessitating a more expensive winding (fine stranding?).  It's all a compromise.


In contrast, when we don't want energy storage, we do indeed want mu as high as possible, and as little air gap as possible.  Transformers should simply be an instantaneous ratio between windings, without storing energy themselves: maximum magnetizing inductance and minimum leakage inductance.  This is the case where we especially work at concentrating that magnetic field.

Tim
« Last Edit: September 18, 2021, 02:54:07 pm by T3sl4co1l »
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Offline Terry Bites

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Re: Rotary transformer for power transfer to moving shaft
« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2021, 12:40:39 pm »
Another thought. Coaxial solenoid transformer.

Concentric windings can be rotated independently. One solenoid inside another. That opens up a lot of options including air core at higher frequencies.


courtesy of M Faraday




 


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