Author Topic: simulating railway circuits in circuit simulator  (Read 966 times)

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Offline dak4482

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simulating railway circuits in circuit simulator
« on: January 18, 2022, 08:35:52 pm »
Hi all,
New to the forum. I am very interested in simulating the OLD railway circuit diagrams from the 50's and 60's using KICAD or something similar. Is anyone aware of a a source for the neutral, polar  etc relays to use to simulate these circuits? I checked Alstom's site and dont see spec sheets that may detail whether there are newer relays that may be used to emulate these older ones and if they have them available for circuit modeling software.

Attached is a typical circuit diagram from a patent application using the neutral and polarized relays during the 50's and 60's that I would typically like to simulate.

Is anyone aware of someone who may have tried out a project like this?
Any help is appreciated.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2022, 04:30:45 pm by dak4482 »
 

Online Benta

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Re: simulating railway circuits in KiCad
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2022, 08:47:48 pm »
What do you mean by "simulate?"

KiCad is for drawing, and if you want to make nice new versions of those schematics, you can certainly do that. But I'm very sure you'll need to create your own Relay Library first.

 

Offline dak4482

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Re: simulating railway circuits in Circuit simulator
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2022, 10:16:21 pm »
Hi

Thx for the clarification. Yes I was really looking for a good library of the relays or something to replicate them with to model the circuits in something like Kicad and them simulate them in Orcad or another circuit simulator. My big problem is in getting the relay library set up. Thats really what I need help with.

Dan
« Last Edit: January 20, 2022, 04:31:24 pm by dak4482 »
 

Offline rpiloverbd

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Re: simulating railway circuits in KiCad
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2022, 02:32:40 pm »
I think proteus is a better option if you want to simulate the circuit.
 

Offline dak4482

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Re: simulating railway circuits in circuit simulator
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2022, 04:28:19 pm »
What a coincidence. I jut downloaded Proteus. Any help with a suggested library?
Dan
« Last Edit: January 20, 2022, 04:31:43 pm by dak4482 »
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: simulating railway circuits in circuit simulator
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2022, 06:00:01 pm »
I would use MATLAB and Simulink (see attached Simulink relay).  The only problem is that Simulink relays are just single pole so I would have to come up with a naming convention and parallel Simulink relays to get multi-pole relays.  Not a big deal...

I already own a Home License for both MATLAB and Simulink and there is a cost.  Since I use MATLAB for a lot of other applications, having Simulink is reasonable.  Among other things, I can build the equivalent of analog computer programs.  Very cool stuff!
 

Online Benta

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Re: simulating railway circuits in circuit simulator
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2022, 09:02:00 pm »
Or instead of paying for a license, you could use GNU Octave.
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: simulating railway circuits in circuit simulator
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2022, 09:40:00 pm »
Or instead of paying for a license, you could use GNU Octave.

Too the best of my knowledge, there is no Simulink equivalent in Octave.  For numeric stuff, they are equivalent but Octave doesn't have all the Toolkits.
 

Online Benta

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Re: simulating railway circuits in circuit simulator
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2022, 10:18:54 pm »
Too the best of my knowledge, there is no Simulink equivalent in Octave.  For numeric stuff, they are equivalent but Octave doesn't have all the Toolkits.

You're probably right. I have it installed, but have not gotten around to playing with it yet.
 

Offline Someone

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Re: simulating railway circuits in circuit simulator
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2022, 10:28:00 pm »
Or instead of paying for a license, you could use GNU Octave.

Too the best of my knowledge, there is no Simulink equivalent in Octave.  For numeric stuff, they are equivalent but Octave doesn't have all the Toolkits.
Which is where Scilab takes up the baton:
https://www.scilab.org/software/xcos
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: simulating railway circuits in circuit simulator
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2022, 01:05:54 am »
I installed SciLab but I haven't tried to use it.  It's going to take some research...  It looks like the XCOS package is what I would need.

I have used Octave quite a bit and I try to write scripts that will run on both MATLAB and Octave.  Not everybody wants to pay for a program like MATLAB.  At the university where my grandson graduated, they have a first semester class in MATLAB for all incoming STEM students and then they use it for everything over the next 4-5 years.  I think they get their copy of MATLAB for free and can use it as long as they are a student.

I primarily use SimuLink for modeling analog computer problems like the attached.  The images were taken at different times so I have no reason to belive that the waveform is a result of the knob settings but that's the idea.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2022, 01:15:00 am by rstofer »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: simulating railway circuits in circuit simulator
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2022, 01:38:14 am »
Hi all,
New to the forum. I am very interested in simulating the OLD railway circuit diagrams from the 50's and 60's using KICAD or something similar. Is anyone aware of a a source for the neutral, polar  etc relays to use to simulate these circuits? I checked Alstom's site and dont see spec sheets that may detail whether there are newer relays that may be used to emulate these older ones and if they have them available for circuit modeling software.

Attached is a typical circuit diagram from a patent application using the neutral and polarized relays during the 50's and 60's that I would typically like to simulate.
Kicad is the wrong tool for this. Use either Ltspice ( https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/185855/how-can-i-model-a-relay-in-ltspice-iv ) or Microcap ( ). Both a free circuit simulators.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2022, 01:41:16 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online Zero999

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Re: simulating railway circuits in circuit simulator
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2022, 02:04:57 pm »
I agree about using LTSpice.

I haven't watched the video, but I've read that stackexchange thread, which suggests a voltage controlled switch. This will work, but I prefer a current controlled switch, because the contacts can be placed in a different part of the schematic, than the coil, more than one contact and both normally open and closed contacts can be simulated.


555 delay off relay.asc
« Last Edit: January 21, 2022, 02:12:06 pm by Zero999 »
 


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