Author Topic: snubber 3 different 230V AC motors in a record cleaning machine  (Read 11344 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Peter_OTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 419
  • Country: de
snubber 3 different 230V AC motors in a record cleaning machine
« on: December 20, 2021, 11:05:24 am »
Unsure if this is more a beginner's topic or a project.

My project is the automation of a Loricraft Record cleaning machine.
The machine is sucking cleaning fluid with a nozzle at the tip of an actively driven arm.
The record platter can be turned cw and ccw.
The pump sits inside the big black box.

The original schematics are as attached.

M1 - arm drive, line synchronous clock drive motor
M2 - pump motor, 80W
M3 - platter motor, 2-directional
(Sorry, I found no 4 pin AC motor symbol and used a stepper motor one.)

The capacitors are 250V X ones.

I'm about to replace the switches with relais and of course I could just trust the three original snubber designs to be good enough.
But I'd like to understand what's going on in more detail.

M1: In my understanding, C1 is kind of an X-capacitor and the 330K resistor might be for decharging the capacitor to prevent shock from users who pull the line connector and touch the pins. 0.1µF is just "standard".

M2: I understand this to be a classic snubber design, 0.1µF "standard", but 470K seems way to high.

M3: I do not understand, what's the idea behind connecting the capacitor to the two live pins of the motor.

Questions I have:

1 - Do you have any tipps for good tutorials about simple snubber designs?

2 - I'd like to understand the effects of the snubbers by doing some measurements. I have an active differential probe (Micsig 10007) limited to 700V peak to peak. Will it be fine, or should I think about getting e.g. a Micsig 20003, limited to 5kV peak to peak.

3 - Any direct comment on the three snubbers will help.

4 - Where can I find more appropriate motor symbols for Kicad?

Any insights, tipps and hints appreciated!
 

Online themadhippy

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2583
  • Country: gb
Re: snubber 3 different 230V AC motors in a record cleaning machine
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2021, 11:41:08 am »
Quote
: M3: I do not understand, what's the idea behind connecting the capacitor to the two live pins of the motor
it puts one coil out of phase with the other,its how it sets the direction.
 
The following users thanked this post: Peter_O

Offline Peter_OTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 419
  • Country: de
Re: snubber 3 different 230V AC motors in a record cleaning machine
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2021, 12:01:02 pm »
Ah. Ok. So for M3 it's not a snubber but just that phase shift. Thx!
 

Online T3sl4co1l

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21686
  • Country: us
  • Expert, Analog Electronics, PCB Layout, EMC
    • Seven Transistor Labs
Re: snubber 3 different 230V AC motors in a record cleaning machine
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2021, 12:29:30 pm »
Presumably the line terminals all act in parallel?  (They're not drawn as a bus, so... But it would be weird if they're actually like separate cords, right?)

Then the 0.1 should act to bypass everything, and the high value resistor is just a bleeder so you don't get shocked when unplugging the cord and touching the blades.

That helps attenuate the switching noise, but doesn't prevent it.

What happens is:
First, the motor current needs to be significant, near a peak.  This might be mostly real current (coincident with a voltage peak), or inductive (near voltage zero crossing).  Those motors are likely quite inductive, so probably more the latter case, but it doesn't really matter.  What does matter, is that there is also significant (leakage) inductance, of the winding with respect to any work it's doing, as this is the part that plays in the following situation.*

*That is, there is effectively a series inductance between the terminals, and whatever internal motor-physics-operation-stuff the motor is actually doing.  The motor can be modeled as a Thevenin voltage source, where the voltage is the EMF associated with applied field and rotor motion, and the series impedance is winding resistance and leakage inductance.  Which also means these limit how fast the motor can accelerate, max torque, that sort of thing, and indeed they do.

When current is near peak (or "significant" in any case), then when the contact is opened, the inductance discharges, causing voltage to flyback up to a peak determined by air breakdown voltage, and it rises at a rate determined by capacitance (stray capacitance in the wiring and winding).

Consider the contact for a moment.  As it opens, microscopic points of contact gradually move apart and separate (and probably slide and drag on the surface for a bit, as well).  When the last point separates, in the first, whatever, microseconds, where it's only a few nanometers away -- the voltage drop rises, current no longer flowing through the contact but now charging into stray capacitance instead.

As the contacts get further apart, gradually the breakdown voltage rises.  You can imagine, if they separated fast enough, perhaps the breakdown voltage could rise fast enough as well, that breakdown never occurs, and a single flyback pulse and ringdown is experienced by the motor winding, all by itself.

This is actually designed to be the case, in archaic (points) ignition systems: the "condenser" slows the voltage rise, enough that the contact can open far enough to avoid breakdown.  The ignition coil develops a high voltage (some hundreds on the primary, 10k's on the secondary), then finds a path through the spark plug.  At least, when the system was working right... points were notoriously bad, subject to continuous mechanical and electrical wear.

We might not have that luxury here.  We could add such a capacitor across the motor winding, and repeat the function here; but it might turn out that the switch doesn't open far enough, or fast enough, to avoid breakdown, or that the ringdown (even without sparking) is still enough noise to be annoying.  Note that ringing is coupled through the motor's casing into nearby ground (or if ungrounded, then electrostatic fields to anything nearby), so we still get a common mode (flows through neutral alone, even without the hot wire connected) noise current, albeit much less than the direct route.

Ringdown is given by the high-frequency losses of the motor winding, its inductance, and the capacitor value.  It's more-or-less a simple RLC parallel resonant circuit.  You'd need to measure the R and L at the frequency, to solve for the waveform (peak amplitude, resonant frequency, damping rate), but this can be done with basic test equipment ("basic" as in scope and signal generator).

So that's kind of, your top example: simply slowing it enough that the switch doesn't spark (or as much).  The capacitor is evidently on the wrong side, so I'm imagining it across the motor for sake of argument.  (Across the line, it acts to reduce line impedance; more on that later.)

The middle example is snubbing the switch, typically with an R+C.  Though the value is wrong; is it really 470k?


So, what happens when the switch breaks down?

The switch is full of air, which has the effect that, when breakdown occurs, the voltage drop suddenly (within <1ns) goes to maybe 10V (give or take spark length; we're talking quite short sparks here, so the voltage drop will be low), and remains conductive as long as sufficient current flows (holding current).

We're probably at less than that current, so we can assume the spark goes cold after a few microseconds, goes out, then we're back where we started: voltage is rising (into stray capacitances), and the motor inductance has discharged only incrementally (proportional to the area under the flyback pulse).

The effect is a relaxation oscillator, where the bias current is supplied from the motor inductance, the breakdown element is the switch airgap, and the capacitance being discharged is the strays of wiring and winding.  (Note that the capacitance supplies holding current for some ns to µs, but eventually runs out.)  In this case, the return path to ground, is the mains system itself -- discharging that capacitance into the supply transmits an electromagnetic pulse (EMP) of significant amplitude.  Note that the spark risetime is extremely fast: under 1ns, so we really can speak in terms of a wavefront: mere 10s cm wide, propagating up the mains cable at a modest fraction of the speed of light (waves travel in cables somewhat slower, due to the dielectric).  This is fast stuff!

This waveform is important enough, that it is included in EMC standards, such as IEC 61000-4-4 electrical fast transients / burst transients.  The peak voltage can be several kV, the risetime a few ns, and the pulse energy comparable to ESD -- it can be destructive in its own right.  Add to that, the fact that it repeats rapid-fire until the motor inductance has discharged to zero current: the sustained noise can disrupt communications between equipment (e.g. knocking out a USB, Ethernet, etc. packet in transit, or causing garbled data on less error-tolerant networks).

So that's what we're ultimately protecting against.

Note that, mains filtering is ineffective for two reasons:
1. If we simply put a shunt capacitor across the line (as C1), this reduces the line impedance for high frequencies, shunting the EFT -- instead of ~kV, maybe it's only 10s or 100s of V.  But we cannot eliminate it this way, not without using a more complicated filter at least.
2. There is significant capacitance to ground, or whatever nearby metal there is -- and again, this is a very fast pulse, so it literally radiates out from the switch at light speed, washing around anything metallic nearby; and anything metallic provides a partial ground-return path for that wave to launch down the mains wires in parallel (common mode), so that any (differential mode) filter has no effect at all.

So we really are quite interested in preventing that noise in the first place!


If we put an R+C (that is, R in series with C) across the switch, with R dimensioned so that, even at peak maximum load current, the voltage drop is never more than switch breakdown voltage; and choose C = L / R^2, then: the resonant circuit is the series path between mains, snubber R+C, and motor R+L.  (We can likely ignore stray (parallel) C here, because the snubber C will be much larger; or we can include it in a more complete model of the circuit, that's fine too.)  Note that to solve for C, technically we should use the total loop R, not just the snubber's.  (But if we don't have the R, L and C of the motor/wiring, it's safe enough to assume the snubber R is dominant.  This isn't rocket surgery, being within a factor of 2 is more than good enough.)

Note that, for DPST switches, we don't in general know which contact will open first, so we need a snubber across each.  If we did know, we could snub just the first, and by the time the other opens (probably some ~ms later -- mechanics are slow!), current is already ~zero so we don't care.  But yeh, we don't know.  Or it might even vary with wear, maybe one contact wears faster so opens sooner after a lot of use.  So, safest to do both.

For small motors like these, likely the motor current isn't much over say 100mA, and if we want a peak voltage under 200V, that's 200V / 100mA = 2kohm.  If the inductance is ballpark say 1H, then C ~ 0.25uF will do.  Likely anything from 0.047 to 1uF will do.  You often see pre-packaged components with 100R + (0.22 or 0.47uF)  for exactly this purpose, and that will do a fine job as well.

Or for the 80W motor, that's maybe a few 100 mA peak, so will need a somewhat lower resistance, and more capacitance.  That's fine too.

Interestingly, your middle example is right, in that the switch has an R+C across it; but wrong, in that 470k is wholly ineffective.  Is the 'k' a misread?  470R would be in the right order of magnitude.  Note that if it's an old type, it might have failed, measuring very different from its rating.


Finally, about the bottom example, the reversible motor -- it's not obvious that the capacitor is serving as a snubber, really.  It could be for phasing, so that, actually your choice of a stepper may be much more accurate than you expected -- namely, the capacitor causes a phase shift between windings, so whichever winding is powered is reference, and the capacitor causes a lagging phase shift to the other.  Thus creating a rotating magnetic field that spins the rotor, and that spin is CW / CCW depending on which winding is energized.  Cool, huh?

Reflecting on the above analysis, if we consider each winding as an ideal motor in series with winding impedance, then we can realize, regardless of what each motor is doing internally (and, generally speaking, they'll be doing similar things, they're part of the same motor after all), we'll still have impedance facing the outside world -- basically, the winding R+L act in parallel with respect to the switch, assuming the capacitor between them is large enough to ignore for this purpose (which I'm guessing it is).  So, we will still need the R+C snubber here.  The effect of C3 is to couple both windings together at high frequencies -- one snubber should do the job for both windings.


TL;DR:
- Mechanical contacts open and close extremely quickly.  Sub-ns quickly.  Easily creating EMP that can travel along wires and disrupt nearby devices.
- Use the RLC equivalent circuit to solve for damping: R^2 = L/C.  Add R to the loop as needed, to ensure damping.  If you don't have exact values, crude assumptions are okay.
- Particularly for the snubber, place it across the contacts -- where the EMP is emitted -- and dimension R to avoid contact breakdown at peak current, if possible.  R = Vbd / Ipk.  Assume Ipk from sqrt(2) * Irms(max) of the motor.

Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 
The following users thanked this post: Peter_O

Offline Peter_OTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 419
  • Country: de
Re: snubber 3 different 230V AC motors in a record cleaning machine
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2021, 01:48:56 pm »
Tim, thx a lot for taking the time to write up this comprehensive answer.
At first reading it adresses my "reception level" extremely well and explains a lot to me.
I will need some time to think about it in detail and I will come back here later these days.

For now to your questions:

Presumably the line terminals all act in parallel?  (They're not drawn as a bus, so... But it would be weird if they're actually like separate cords, right?)

You're right, of course.

Quote
Then the 0.1 should act to bypass everything, and the high value resistor is just a bleeder so you don't get shocked when unplugging the cord and touching the blades.
That helps attenuate the switching noise, but doesn't prevent it.

I've updated the schemactics acc. to that.

Quote
The middle example is snubbing the switch, typically with an R+C.  Though the value is wrong; is it really 470k?
...
Interestingly, your middle example is right, in that the switch has an R+C across it; but wrong, in that 470k is wholly ineffective.  Is the 'k' a misread?  470R would be in the right order of magnitude.  Note that if it's an old type, it might have failed, measuring very different from its rating.

Yea. I was in doubt too and measured it multiple times with two different meters.
Did it again. Measures near 470k, but from the colour code it's a 47 Ohm 1% one.

« Last Edit: December 20, 2021, 01:52:24 pm by Peter_O »
 

Online mag_therm

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 684
  • Country: us
Re: snubber 3 different 230V AC motors in a record cleaning machine
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2021, 03:38:07 pm »
Little 47 Ohm is probably burnt early in its life due to the transient charging current when the switch opens.
47 R,  0.1 uF,    Could be   E = 230 * 1.414. not considering motor winding
: 6.9 Amp peak      I_sq * t is approx 0.223 mA_sq.sec.
 
The following users thanked this post: Peter_O

Online T3sl4co1l

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21686
  • Country: us
  • Expert, Analog Electronics, PCB Layout, EMC
    • Seven Transistor Labs
Re: snubber 3 different 230V AC motors in a record cleaning machine
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2021, 05:10:25 pm »
Ah yep there you go.  Would recommend something bigger like 1/2W, or pulse rated, for a replacement.

As for relays, consider using SSRs -- TRIAC based switches.  The snubber may not be strictly needed (a TRIAC turns off at ~zero current; actually, like a spark, it has a minimum holding current too, but it's much better behaved than a spark, and easier to trigger :) ), but improves operation.  There are "snubberless" TRIACs with more robustness than the garden-variety kind.

Mechanical relays are of course mechanical contact, so will need the snubber.  The advantage is lower voltage drop, especially helpful at high currents (so, not at all important here, but handy to know).  The turn-on is still very fast so emits a noise impulse, though not as much as turn-off without a snubber.  (Ideally, an R || L would be in series with the contact to dampen this as well.  R || L is the inverse of R + C, the symmetry covers for both edges.  This is rarely done because it's rarely worthwhile, but handy to know.)

Tim
« Last Edit: December 20, 2021, 05:22:50 pm by T3sl4co1l »
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 
The following users thanked this post: Peter_O

Offline Peter_OTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 419
  • Country: de
Re: snubber 3 different 230V AC motors in a record cleaning machine
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2021, 08:35:34 pm »
Short update:
I've measured the motors with my small component tester.
First I checked the tester with small known inductors. 68µH measured OK as '0.07mH', 450mH measured OK as '0.45mH', so it seems to be suitable for the job.

M1 (small line synchronous arm motor): 7127 Ohm, no inductivity detected
M2 (80W pump motor): 110,5 Ohm, 118 mH
M3 (two coil cw/ccw motor): 3536 Ohm and 3534 Ohm, no inductivity detected

This seems to illustrate, why Loricraft put a snubber at the pump motor switch only only.

Coming from Tim's calculation:
If we put an R+C (that is, R in series with C) across the switch, with R dimensioned so that, even at peak maximum load current, the voltage drop is never more than switch breakdown voltage; and choose C = L / R^2, then: the resonant circuit is the series path between mains, snubber R+C, and motor R+L.  (We can likely ignore stray (parallel) C here, because the snubber C will be much larger; or we can include it in a more complete model of the circuit, that's fine too.)  Note that to solve for C, technically we should use the total loop R, not just the snubber's.  (But if we don't have the R, L and C of the motor/wiring, it's safe enough to assume the snubber R is dominant.  This isn't rocket surgery, being within a factor of 2 is more than good enough.)
...
For small motors like these, likely the motor current isn't much over say 100mA, and if we want a peak voltage under 200V, that's 200V / 100mA = 2kohm.  If the inductance is ballpark say 1H, then C ~ 0.25uF will do.  Likely anything from 0.047 to 1uF will do.  You often see pre-packaged components with 100R + (0.22 or 0.47uF)  for exactly this purpose, and that will do a fine job as well.

for the pump motor:
Type label says: 80W and 0.5A, 80W equals I=80W/230V=0.35A.
If we stay with 200V peak voltage, R=200V/0.35A=570Ohm, plus - as we do know it now - motor resistance of 110 Ohm: R=680Ohm
C=C = L / R^2 = 0,118H/680²Ohm² = 0,255µF

So 560 Ohm and 270nF should do it, right?

For the platter motor it would be 11.5W/230V=50mA; R=200V/0,05A=4kOhm plus 3.5KOhm = 7.5 kOhm
With an assumtion of 1H as upper estimate: C=1H/7.500²Ohm²=0,017µF

So 4.2KOhm and 18nF would be the choice,right?

For the arm motor I'd estmate 5W ^= 20mA; R=10k+7.1k=17.1kOhm; With 1H C=3.4nF

So 10k and 3,3nF it would be.

Are these values sensible, or are there more practical values to choose?
« Last Edit: December 20, 2021, 08:38:28 pm by Peter_O »
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21611
  • Country: us
Re: snubber 3 different 230V AC motors in a record cleaning machine
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2021, 10:30:47 pm »
Ah. Ok. So for M3 it's not a snubber but just that phase shift. Thx!

Yes, this is referred to (at least in English) as a PSC or Permanent Split Capacitor motor. It is called that because the capacitor is in the circuit full time instead of being removed after the motor gets up to speed as in a capacitor start motor. Often the start and run windings are interchangeable and swapping which one is fed through the capacitor reverses the motor.
 
The following users thanked this post: Peter_O

Online T3sl4co1l

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21686
  • Country: us
  • Expert, Analog Electronics, PCB Layout, EMC
    • Seven Transistor Labs
Re: snubber 3 different 230V AC motors in a record cleaning machine
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2021, 01:29:45 am »
Huh, doesn't say what frequency it tests inductance at?  (Can you scope it in progress..?)

Guessing the frequency is just too low for it to register the inductive component of the two.  Relevant test frequency is, well, whatever the characteristic frequency of the resulting RLC would be -- some kHz to MHz most likely.

This seems to illustrate, why Loricraft put a snubber at the pump motor switch only only.

If true (and I mean, it may be) -- indeed!


Quote
So 560 Ohm and 270nF should do it, right?

Yeah, that sounds quite reasonable.  And that's the limiting values, so smaller R and larger C are acceptable (it can be overdamped just fine).

You don't want to go too high in C, as it draws some leakage at mains frequency.  You certainly don't want it series resonant with the motor inductance; but we've already ensured that in a sense (not really, but it would be a very peculiar motor design to have so much inductance in normal operation), so that just leaves leakage.  If you say an upper limit of say 1mA, that's 13nF.  Well, that blows out the spec for the 80W motor, but, well, it's ~350mA, so we can presumably allow a higher "off" current for it.  And this figure is pretty reasonable for the small motors, so something in the 10s nF seems reasonable.


Quote
So 10k and 3,3nF it would be.

Are these values sensible, or are there more practical values to choose?

I'd stick to a lower value, say a few kohm, and 10nF or so should be fine.

Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 

Offline Peter_OTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 419
  • Country: de
Re: snubber 3 different 230V AC motors in a record cleaning machine
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2021, 10:17:39 am »
Yes, this is referred to (at least in English) as a PSC or Permanent Split Capacitor motor. It is called that because the capacitor is in the circuit full time instead of being removed after the motor gets up to speed as in a capacitor start motor. Often the start and run windings are interchangeable and swapping which one is fed through the capacitor reverses the motor.
James. thx for the keyword that leads to the relevant tutorials.

I just had a look. The capacity of 0.22µF is written on the label in fact.

Its a Crouzet 82540031.
https://soda.crouzet.com/pn/?i=82540031
Unfortunately they do not provide a datasheet. But on the other hand everything necessary is on the label.
 

Offline Peter_OTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 419
  • Country: de
Re: snubber 3 different 230V AC motors in a record cleaning machine
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2021, 06:06:36 pm »
Huh, doesn't say what frequency it tests inductance at?  (Can you scope it in progress..?)

No. (Yes)
Seems, this little guy decides it's a resistor before it starts any signal for an inductor measurement.

But I rescued a HP4260 Universal Bridge some months ago and took it into action. And I doublechecked the resitance values with a lab multimeter.

80W pump motor: 129mH, 110Ohm
11W platter motor: 7.3H, 3500Ohm per winding
arm motor: 9.1H, 7.1kOhm

Recalculating with 200V voltage limit:

80W pump motor: I=0.35A, R=570+110=680Ohm. C=0,129H/(680Ohm)² = 0,28µF

560R/.27µF it would be. And following your last comments, Tim, I'll start with 420R/0.47µF

11W platter motor: I=50mA, R=4k+3.5k=7.5k, C=7.3H/(7.5kOhm)²=0,13µF

... 4.2k/18nF

Arm motor: I=20mA; R=10k+7.1k=17.1kOhm; C=9.1H/(17kOhm)²=31nF

... 4.2k/47nF, this one for each of both switches, acc. to Tim's first comment: not knowing which of the switches will open first.

I've ordered some "X2" class film capacitors with different values. 1W metal film resistors I've here at hand.
After arrival of the capacitors we will see, if the Atmega runs stable, or if there's some switching noise left, that gets it out of track.

Ah. While surfing I found this snubber module beeing everywhere in the arudino cosmos: https://de.aliexpress.com/item/1005001418499710.html
The blue component is an MOV-10D471K varistor. More stuff to read and understand. :-)

« Last Edit: December 21, 2021, 06:46:21 pm by Peter_O »
 
The following users thanked this post: T3sl4co1l

Offline Peter_OTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 419
  • Country: de
Re: snubber 3 different 230V AC motors in a record cleaning machine
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2021, 06:47:16 pm »
Forgot to add a screenshot of the scope measurement of the component tester. Added above.
 

Online T3sl4co1l

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21686
  • Country: us
  • Expert, Analog Electronics, PCB Layout, EMC
    • Seven Transistor Labs
Re: snubber 3 different 230V AC motors in a record cleaning machine
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2021, 07:58:59 pm »
Oh and speaking of MOV -- that's another good option, as it has some capacitance while also clamping the voltage.  So it can serve the role of the RC in a different way.  There's still ringdown after the spike is clamped, but the fast risetime and high voltage are dealt with.  (Breakdown occurs like a soft zener diode, rather than snapping like a spark or gas discharge.)

MOVs have rather crude clamping specs, so may not be suitable for solid state switching, but are effective for mechanical contacts and general mains application.

Ideally you'd put it across the switch, but that may not be a great idea as it allows mains transients through the switch; it may also wear over time.  (Snubbing is well into the "infinite" lifetime curve, should be even for the smallest suitable MOV you can find; I add this, as some will tell you they always wear.)  The next best option is putting it across the motor, then bypassing neutral to hot before the switch, so there's still a tight loop around the switch, bypassing the contact.  (Which, with the H-N bypass already in there, isn't a bad idea, and the same principle applies to the RC snubber as well.)

Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21611
  • Country: us
Re: snubber 3 different 230V AC motors in a record cleaning machine
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2021, 09:37:54 pm »
I'm not one to question your expertise, however I'd certainly be hesitant to use a MOV in a snubber application if that's what is being proposed here. They wear out with use and they fail silently, or in some cases they fail as greatly increased leakage which would cause current to bypass the switch in this case.
 

Offline Peter_OTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 419
  • Country: de
Re: snubber 3 different 230V AC motors in a record cleaning machine
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2021, 09:49:49 am »
The linked arduino cosmos module combines the MOV with an RC circuit.

But when those MOVs do not live a long time, I think, I stick to the RC solution and find a way to check their effectiveness.

Simple check would be the processor running stable during switching.

Is it possible to measure the inductive voltage with a differential probe and scope?
What maximum voltage the probe should be specified for at least?
Or would you consider that approach as to risky for the scope?
« Last Edit: December 22, 2021, 10:04:33 am by Peter_O »
 

Online T3sl4co1l

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21686
  • Country: us
  • Expert, Analog Electronics, PCB Layout, EMC
    • Seven Transistor Labs
Re: snubber 3 different 230V AC motors in a record cleaning machine
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2021, 01:34:52 pm »
Use an isolation transformer.  Regular 10x probes will read that kind of voltage range just fine.

Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 
The following users thanked this post: Peter_O

Online mag_therm

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 684
  • Country: us
Re: snubber 3 different 230V AC motors in a record cleaning machine
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2021, 03:01:42 am »
I'm not one to question your expertise, however I'd certainly be hesitant to use a MOV in a snubber application if that's what is being proposed here. They wear out with use and they fail silently, or in some cases they fail as greatly increased leakage which would cause current to bypass the switch in this case.
Hi j_s,
I agree with all except the wear-out comment.
Can you provide a currently applicable ref?  Littelfuse for example website data does not presently mention that for the LA series assuming  within the Max Volt & Joule ratings.

And I agree that no semiconductor should ever be used to bypass a mechanical safety switch, and that would be in violation of many standards.
In my experience varistors would/should always be used downstream of isolation and overcurrent protection.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2021, 03:07:23 am by mag_therm »
 
The following users thanked this post: Peter_O

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21611
  • Country: us
Re: snubber 3 different 230V AC motors in a record cleaning machine
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2021, 04:58:55 am »
I agree with all except the wear-out comment.
Can you provide a currently applicable ref?  Littelfuse for example website data does not presently mention that for the LA series assuming  within the Max Volt & Joule ratings.

I don't know where I first heard it, I thought it was just common knowledge? I found a few references.

https://www.nmmi.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/NMMI-What-to-Know-About-Surge-Protectors.pdf

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/312112062_Deducing_metal_oxide_varistor_life_span_from_pulse_rating_curves_for_surges_of_different_magnitudes

Perhaps somebody on this forum will have some direct knowledge.
 
The following users thanked this post: Peter_O

Online mag_therm

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 684
  • Country: us
Re: snubber 3 different 230V AC motors in a record cleaning machine
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2021, 06:06:59 am »
I recall using, as young engineer,  the varistor first in about 1973 to replace the selenium voltage-surge suppressors on industrial 600V class switchgear.
The selenium cells  emitted toxic gas upon failure and they were discontinued .
I recall using D.O.L., off load,  and emergency break rotary switches on transformer primaries from Santon, Kraus & Naimer, and moulded case breakers from Westinghouse. Usually the load was a rectifier transformer followed by a scr bridge or double star.

The varistors were mounted in parallel gangs under. I don't remember if fused. I recall the varistors were from GE and Semikron mostly, at that time.
They were listed world-wide and  detailed application sheets were provided.
 
The following users thanked this post: Peter_O

Online T3sl4co1l

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21686
  • Country: us
  • Expert, Analog Electronics, PCB Layout, EMC
    • Seven Transistor Labs
Re: snubber 3 different 230V AC motors in a record cleaning machine
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2021, 02:17:56 pm »
Can you provide a currently applicable ref?  Littelfuse for example website data does not presently mention that for the LA series assuming  within the Max Volt & Joule ratings.

They do -- check the datasheet:
https://m.littelfuse.com/~/media/electronics/datasheets/varistors/littelfuse_varistor_la_datasheet.pdf.pdf

Three ratings are given:
Absolute maximum energy, 10/1000us
Absolute maximum current, 8/20us
Peak clamping V, I, 8/20us

(I don't know why they call it "8 x 20 us" and etc., seems to imply a repetition or multiplication.  It should be read as specifying two dimensions, not that they should be implicitly multiplied.  Actually the figures are additive if anything.  Anyway, the waveform is given Fig.2, where they also use the more common slash notation, go figure.)

Now compare to the life curves.  Pick V320LA40BP for example.  This has 150J, 6.5kA, and 810V @ 100A ratings, respectively.  Its life curve is Fig.18.  The "1" curve ends at about 8kA / 20us, so we can assume the abs. max. rating is a one-time event, at best.  For the energy figure, we need to know voltage, then divide to get surge current; if we assume 810V is representative then 150J/810V = 0.185As, or 185A for a 1ms surge (ballpark -- presumably they integrate energy well into the tail of the pulse, where V will be noticeably different, and total energy higher than the 50% cutoff point at 1ms).  This is conveniently close to the "1" curve's ~150A, 1ms intercept, so maybe it's not that far off after all.

Note that the slope for single events is close to 1:1, meaning constant energy (assuming constant voltage drop).  Apparently the 6.5kA 8/20us surge is as destructive as the 150A 1ms surge.

Further down the plot, we see an "INDEFINITE" curve, and various other numbers of cycles.  Presumably you'd want to choose a device for induced lightning protection, or residual surge (category A?), somewhere in the thousands perhaps, for long life, and less would be acceptable for shorter lived consumer equipment.

Note that the figures quickly go away from meaningful surge values, for any kind of repetition -- 10^5 cycles at 100A peak, 8/20us, corresponds to a 2-ohm generator of merely 200V above clamping voltage; most devices are expected to handle 1.5kV or more (total).  It seems likely this is where the claim "MOVs always wear" comes from -- they do, in any kind of useful mains-surge regime.

It seems they can indeed offer unlimited life, at least so the figure claims -- when limited to much lower values, like 7A / 1ms.  You could use this for more casual voltage limiting applications, like, well -- inductive flyback clamping for one. :)

(In contrast, avalanche/zener/TVS diodes evidently don't wear, they either survive, or overheat and fail shorted, or open if failed real bad.  Across-the-line rated TVS are in fact available -- they're just terribly expensive, because a whole load of them must be stacked to get the energy rating!)


Anyways, in this particular application, I think the contrast between RC and MOV is interesting.  You have obvious cautions like this:

And I agree that no semiconductor should ever be used to bypass a mechanical safety switch, and that would be in violation of many standards.

(although, note no one brought up safety switches here, so this is peculiar)

or in some cases [MOVs] fail as greatly increased leakage which would cause current to bypass the switch in this case.

But then, any surge will be let through in full, at whatever current the resistor sets it to, for the RC case, and the motor isn't about to do anything from such a short transient, whether reduced by a series MOV or attenuated slightly by the RC.  In contrast, the RC may well leak more mains current than the MOV -- particularly notable in this situation as the load resistance is so high, every mA of leakage may matter.  (This is especially true of certain types of loads, like LED lamps that tend to charge up under leakage, then turn on briefly once in a while -- flashing!)


As for general application, best is to preserve the off-state insulation of the switch -- perhaps snubbers across the contacts should only be employed in certain situations, when it is known to be safe to do so.  For example, with more than some minimum load, guaranteed, so that the off-state line voltage is acceptably low.  Whereas for any general load including none, it may float up as if the switch is already closed, making a hazardous situation.  It would seem, then, the best practice is to snub from hot to neutral, namely using a bypass cap from hot (inlet) to neutral, and the R+C snubber from hot (after the switch) to neutral.

Still another option, is to just not care about contact bounce and EFT -- industrial environments are noisy in so many ways that you might not notice the noise from one particular contact.  It's the responsibility of everything else, then, to tolerate such noise levels.  For OP's situation, dealing with the contacts is easier, but only solves the immediate situation, and the device could presumably be exposed to external sources of the same sort of noise -- so, it's not a fix for the underlying issue, that the MCU board and wiring are so sensitive.  But solving this is a bigger task as well.

Tim
« Last Edit: December 23, 2021, 02:21:22 pm by T3sl4co1l »
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 

Offline Peter_OTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 419
  • Country: de
Re: snubber 3 different 230V AC motors in a record cleaning machine
« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2021, 10:03:45 am »
Thx for the educating discussion MOVs and other TVS devices. Inspired by your posts I found another nice overview in "Art of Electronics - The x-Chapters".
As you guys already stated, they emphasized that these components might fail and short cut the circuit. they recommend to always have a fuse in series. From that the small chinese snubber board I linked above seems to disqualify.

Referring to your discussion about snubbers and safety switches I shoud add, that I've already planned for a 2 pole general manual power switch in front of the relay stuff. In Germany we have those power plugs where you can easily interchange L and N. As I'm aware of beeing an amateur, I always have such a switch in front of all my DIY line handling botches.

For a first step I will come back after having installed RC turn off snubbers.

I'm organizing for a differential high voltage probe and plan to fiddle around a little with the three motors after arrival to gain some hands on understanding in addition.
In case there are very high spikes the RC snubbers can't handle I might get into MOVs and fuses.
 

Offline Peter_OTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 419
  • Country: de
Re: snubber 3 different 230V AC motors in a record cleaning machine
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2022, 06:09:31 pm »
Hi guys, hope you made it into 2022 smoothly.

(sorry, I tried to reduce the width of the inline images, read all the topics about it, ...   ..., and it doesn't work for me.  |O )
Edit Jan 4th: Was a lack of coffee   :-[    :palm:, fixed.


Meanwhile I managed to get a high voltage 200x/2000x differential probe in addition tot he 10x/100x I had already.

I swapped in the ATmega and a relay board for the manual switches.
And I put in some snubbers as caculated or suggested by you and did some probing.

Here’s are the new schematics.
(In the old schematics above there was an error: I confused the 1 and 2 pole switches for M1 and M2.)



Motor 1:
This is the line synchronous clock drive motor that drags the suction arm across the record with L=9.1H.
In the original setup oft he machine it was this one that had the 47R / 0.1µF RC snubber across the switch.

Tried to measure the max current with an 1Ohm shunt but it was covered by noise.
So 50mA ist the best guess and R calculated to 4k, C 550nF.

I put in 3k3 and 470nF. This got the motor running without having closed the switch.  :scared:

So I took the RC off again.

The following scope shots show the voltage over the switch (C3, green) and the +5V line of the ATmega PCB (C2, magenta) when switching off the arm motor.
Trigger is on C2 with trigger level some 5.xV.

10ms/div:


0.5ms/div:


I understand the burst as fast transients / burst transients, T3sl4co1l, described in reply #3 above, which „sends“ into the 5V line heavily.

I’m not that clear about the negative 1.4kV spike following 1ms later. Is it just the inductance voltage of the motor after the relais contacts are wide open and there is no more breakdown inside the relais? Why is it, that it takes 1ms before that Voltage builds up.
As a next step,I will try the original values of 47 Ohm and 0.1µF and see what I get.

Motor 2:
This is the 80W vacuum pump motor.

The manual switch was a 2 pole to switch L and N simultanously. Now it’s two relays, the processor switching them on N first then L, off L first then N.

In the original setup oft the machine it had no snubber across the switch.

Here’s the current (1V/div = 1A/div) with an 1Ohm shunt:



Max current at the beginning is about 1A, reducing to the 0.5A noted on the motor label.

R calculate to 200Ohm, C 3.22µF for 1A and 400Ohm, 806nF for 0.5A. Because the Pump will not be switched off during the first second, 0.5A is a good assumption and I take 360 Ohm and 470nF later, which I have available.

But first here are some scope shots without any RCs to compare with the arm motor 1:

5ms/div


0.1ms/div


So here’s a burst too and no kV spike, which I understand because L=0.13H is a factor 70 lower that with M1.

The burst on the 5V line might be coming from the subsequent switching oft the N relays. I will put in a delay between N and L switches to sort that out.

Here’s the subsequent switch off of N relays, generating a proper bust too.

5ms/div


0.1ms/div


With 360 Ohm and 470nF on each of both (L, N) relays:
Switching L off does not even trigger.
Switching N off shortly after having switched L off:

5ms


0.5ms


Motor 3 will follow in the next post (picture limit)
« Last Edit: January 04, 2022, 09:32:40 am by Peter_O »
 

Offline Peter_OTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 419
  • Country: de
Re: snubber 3 different 230V AC motors in a record cleaning machine
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2022, 06:47:28 pm »
Motor 3:

This is the two directional permanent 10W split capacitor motor that drives the platter of the record cleaning machine. L=7.3H.

In the original setup there was no snubber installed.

Here the current is too low to measure with an 1Ohm shunt.
So 100mA ist the best guess and R calculated to 2k2, C 1.5µF.

I put in 2k2 and 470nF. This got the motor running without having closed the switch like motor 1.  :scared:

So I took the RC off again.

(To do: Check with original RC values.)

Swithing off with platter in backward direction:

10ms


2ms


0.1ms


So this ones needs some snubber too.
But because the calculated values let the motor spin in „off“ state, which is the same as fort he arm motor 1, I will first test that one with the original values being smaller that the calculated ones, and then come back to this motor 3.

As above: Any comment highly appreciated!
« Last Edit: January 04, 2022, 09:34:35 am by Peter_O »
 

Online T3sl4co1l

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21686
  • Country: us
  • Expert, Analog Electronics, PCB Layout, EMC
    • Seven Transistor Labs
Re: snubber 3 different 230V AC motors in a record cleaning machine
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2022, 05:36:23 am »
Hmm, I have no explanation for that surge:



It sure looks like EFT, but then sitting flat for a while -- with current flowing into what?  But then that <what> breaks, and a slow transient resumes.  Well, the contacts seem to be far enough apart by then that breakdown does not occur, so at least you get the big tall "whump" without more machine gun fire.

Looks like most of the C's need to be reduced then, to reduce leakage current; that, or moved to shunt, which is fine because of the filter cap at the input there.

Oh, I take it you won't be reversing the one motor while running?  The SPDT will be open in the middle (well, unless you get a make-before-break type; most devices are break-before) so should be snubbed if it will be switched under power.

The others show behavior just as predicted though:



Notice two things happening at once: the spark amplitude goes up over time, because the contact spacing and thus breakdown voltage goes up.  It doesn't go up smoothly, because the contacts are wiggling as they move away.

Meanwhile, the green trace has a sort of constant slope, which is the magnetizing current decaying -- the slope decreases as that energy is dissipated.  Eventually there's one last spark at just the peak breakdown voltage, and you can see how much time there was between that and the previous spark -- it's really curved, low energy, just barely enough to break down.  And after that, it just kinda "aight I'm going home now" and rings down as whatever RLC equivalent the winding is.

And with the snubber, yeah, just goes thud, exactly as predicted.

This one is particularly nice:



The amplitude grows quite smoothly, implying less bounce/wiggle, either on this contact, or the wiggle is inconsistent and this was just a lucky event.

Note also, after the very last spike, it almost comes back to enough voltage to break down again -- aaaand just barely doesn't, and turns back, and so on as it rings down.


So, seems you just need smaller C -- I should refine my suggestion, as the RLC damping condition is a safe assumption, but less may do, also.  The critical factor is getting the voltage rise slow enough that the contact doesn't break down.  This could be done with C alone (relying on winding resistance to dampen the ringing -- as you can see from these un-snubbed waveforms, it turns out they don't ring very long on their own!), and maybe some ~nF will do the job.  You can then adjust the resistor to get best damping; and should start with some resistance (100 ohms would be fine) just so the turn-on current is also limited.

Can also try a MOV -- this would be in shunt across the motor, since you don't want it potentially failing and bypassing the switch all the time.  This has the effect of clamping the peak voltage, so that you get a waveform, well, very much like the first one above -- it's held flat for a while, but an actual MOV will not have that weird spike at the end, it'll just slink away and do its ringdown, having spent all the energy dumping into the MOV rather than sparking.  (It may still spark some initially, it's not necessarily going to do everything by itself -- but what RC is needed to handle that, will be much smaller, too.)

A MOV rated for nominal-max AC voltage (probably 250VAC/330VDC) and, it doesn't need to be big, you can get SMT chips that will handle more than enough energy really -- but a 7mm disc is probably the smallest thru-hole version you'll find, and thus cheapest and easiest to use.

The MOV itself has some capacitance, so can serve somewhat as a snubber too; interesting possibility is putting a resistor in series with it, to provide extra RC damping, while increasing the clamping voltage only modestly.  Interesting, because it defeats the purpose of a MOV (surge clamping), but we don't really need that feature here, indeed preventing it from clamping surges will have the effect of increasing its lifetime (MOVs accumulate wear from the aggressive magnitude of mains surges), downside is that resistor needs to be rated to handle such surges instead (prefer wirewound).

Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf