Author Topic: Solderless vs. soldering - what a difference (measuring 3V LDO)  (Read 3138 times)

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Offline tooki

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Re: Solderless vs. soldering - what a difference (measuring 3V LDO)
« Reply #50 on: May 24, 2024, 09:53:10 am »
Too much hassle when there are easy cheap alternatives.
Cheap yes, easy no.

Anything that involves soldering is not even remotely comparable to solderless breadboards in terms of easiness for R&D. Nothing beats solderless breadboards for trying different circuits and different part values in hardware quickly and with zero waste.

It's only when you are settled on a specific circuit and component values that proceeding to soldering to build a working prototype makes sense, or, another scenario, when parasitics of the solderless breadboard make it impossible or too unreasonable to use in a specific case.

The world of electronics isn't limited by HF and fast digital circuits. And even for those solderless breadboards can be quite usable, as long as you know what you're doing.
You’re absolutely correct. But we can always count on tggzzz to find every mention of the word “breadboard” and inject his absolutist anti-breadboard stance into the discussion. He will never acknowledge or recognize that breadboards have their applications. I’ve tried explaining it multiple times but it’s like talking to a wall, except that walls aren’t as whiny.

That is a clear example of the pot calling the kettle black! Can I suggest you read the thread title and the first post, rather than just being a seagull.

This whole thread is about a problem the OP found using solderless breadboard, which disappeared when they used a better prototype technology.

Q.E.D.
We don’t actually know whether it being breadboarded was actually the root cause of the problem. It could be, but it could also be something like an assembly error which the OP didn’t repeat when assembling on perfboard. Or maybe they have a really bad breadboard (which I consistently advise against), which cannot be taken as a reason to avoid breadboards entirely. (That people have bad experiences with, for example, dollar store screwdrivers doesn’t mean people should abandon screws entirely and weld everything. It means they should buy proper quality screwdrivers.)


As always, the issue I take with you is your absolutist stance. Smart people recognize that the world exists in shades of gray, not black and white, and that even tools with limitations have their purpose.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Solderless vs. soldering - what a difference (measuring 3V LDO)
« Reply #51 on: May 24, 2024, 10:00:43 am »
Most people advocate using solderless breadboards so resistors are not disposable, and can be reused.
It’s not the cost of resistors that makes breadboarding useful. It’s that saving parts means you don’t run out of them as often (meaning that you don’t find yourself without a part you need, regardless of cost), and it does save money on expensive parts. It also doesn’t involve heat, which is great for beginners who aren’t great at soldering yet, particularly for unusually heat-sensitive parts.
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Solderless vs. soldering - what a difference (measuring 3V LDO)
« Reply #52 on: May 24, 2024, 10:01:57 am »
Too much hassle when there are easy cheap alternatives.
Cheap yes, easy no.

Anything that involves soldering is not even remotely comparable to solderless breadboards in terms of easiness for R&D. Nothing beats solderless breadboards for trying different circuits and different part values in hardware quickly and with zero waste.

It's only when you are settled on a specific circuit and component values that proceeding to soldering to build a working prototype makes sense, or, another scenario, when parasitics of the solderless breadboard make it impossible or too unreasonable to use in a specific case.

The world of electronics isn't limited by HF and fast digital circuits. And even for those solderless breadboards can be quite usable, as long as you know what you're doing.
You’re absolutely correct. But we can always count on tggzzz to find every mention of the word “breadboard” and inject his absolutist anti-breadboard stance into the discussion. He will never acknowledge or recognize that breadboards have their applications. I’ve tried explaining it multiple times but it’s like talking to a wall, except that walls aren’t as whiny.

That is a clear example of the pot calling the kettle black! Can I suggest you read the thread title and the first post, rather than just being a seagull.

This whole thread is about a problem the OP found using solderless breadboard, which disappeared when they used a better prototype technology.

Q.E.D.
We don’t actually know whether it being breadboarded was actually the root cause of the problem. It could be, but it could also be something like an assembly error which the OP didn’t repeat when assembling on perfboard. Or maybe they have a really bad breadboard (which I consistently advise against), which cannot be taken as a reason to avoid breadboards entirely. (That people have bad experiences with, for example, dollar store screwdrivers doesn’t mean people should abandon screws entirely and weld everything. It means they should buy proper quality screwdrivers.)


As always, the issue I take with you is your absolutist stance. Smart people recognize that the world exists in shades of gray, not black and white, and that even tools with limitations have their purpose.

Thank you for getting round to reading the title and first post, and tacitally admitting that you were doing what you falsely claimed I was doing!

The world certainly is not black and white. However there is a relevant proverb: "the race does not always go to the fastest, but that's the way to bet".
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Solderless vs. soldering - what a difference (measuring 3V LDO)
« Reply #53 on: May 24, 2024, 10:09:42 am »
Most people advocate using solderless breadboards so resistors are not disposable, and can be reused.
It’s not the cost of resistors that makes breadboarding useful. It’s that saving parts means you don’t run out of them as often (meaning that you don’t find yourself without a part you need, regardless of cost), and it does save money on expensive parts.

There's validity to that, but a counter-example is that I still have components that I desoldered from boards in the 70s. That makes me smile and shake my head more than it makes me feel proud :)

Quote
It also doesn’t involve heat, which is great for beginners who aren’t great at soldering yet, particularly for unusually heat-sensitive parts.

Unusually heat sensitive components are, by definintion, an unusual case. Polystyrene caps spring to mind.

Beginners need to start soldering ASAP. It isn't difficult and is a necessary skill, so throw them in at the the deep end, but don't let them sink.

If they pick up the wrong end of the iron, they've learned something. If they do that again, we've learned something about them :)
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Solderless vs. soldering - what a difference (measuring 3V LDO)
« Reply #54 on: May 24, 2024, 10:12:21 am »
You’re absolutely correct. But we can always count on tggzzz to find every mention of the word “breadboard” and inject his absolutist anti-breadboard stance into the discussion. He will never acknowledge or recognize that breadboards have their applications. I’ve tried explaining it multiple times but it’s like talking to a wall, except that walls aren’t as whiny.

That is a clear example of the pot calling the kettle black! Can I suggest you read the thread title and the first post, rather than just being a seagull.

This whole thread is about a problem the OP found using solderless breadboard, which disappeared when they used a better prototype technology.

Q.E.D.
We don’t actually know whether it being breadboarded was actually the root cause of the problem. It could be, but it could also be something like an assembly error which the OP didn’t repeat when assembling on perfboard. Or maybe they have a really bad breadboard (which I consistently advise against), which cannot be taken as a reason to avoid breadboards entirely. (That people have bad experiences with, for example, dollar store screwdrivers doesn’t mean people should abandon screws entirely and weld everything. It means they should buy proper quality screwdrivers.)


As always, the issue I take with you is your absolutist stance. Smart people recognize that the world exists in shades of gray, not black and white, and that even tools with limitations have their purpose.

Thank you for getting round to reading the title and first post…
I read and understood the OP from the very beginning, before you ever commented.

… and tacitally [sic] admitting that you were doing what you falsely claimed I was doing!
I didn’t admit to anything, and no reasonable reading of this thread would perceive it that way. All I stated is that you inject your absolutist stance into every thread you find about breadboarding, and do not in any way EVER entertain the value in breadboards,  two claims which are objectively true. You absolutely see this issue as black and white, in that you are of the opinion that breadboards are always worse than the alternatives, in all situations.

The world certainly is not black and white. However there is a relevant proverb: "the race does not always go to the fastest, but that's the way to bet".
What on earth does that have to do with anything?
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: Solderless vs. soldering - what a difference (measuring 3V LDO)
« Reply #55 on: May 24, 2024, 10:18:24 am »
Most people advocate using solderless breadboards so resistors are not disposable, and can be reused.
It’s not the cost of resistors that makes breadboarding useful. It’s that saving parts means you don’t run out of them as often (meaning that you don’t find yourself without a part you need, regardless of cost), and it does save money on expensive parts.

There's validity to that, but a counter-example is that I still have components that I desoldered from boards in the 70s. That makes me smile and shake my head more than it makes me feel proud :)
Nobody said parts can’t be desoldered. It’s just way, way easier to tear down a breadboarded circuit than a soldered one, and with less risk of damage. (And now that most protoboards have plated through-holes, desoldering multipin components like DIP ICs has gotten harder to do, especially for novices who don’t have a desoldering iron.)

:)
It also doesn’t involve heat, which is great for beginners who aren’t great at soldering yet, particularly for unusually heat-sensitive parts.

Unusually heat sensitive components are, by definintion, an unusual case. Polystyrene caps spring to mind.

Beginners need to start soldering ASAP. It isn't difficult and is a necessary skill, so throw them in at the the deep end, but don't let them sink.
Of course they need to learn to solder. But they also need to learn basic circuit theory, and for many learners, there is great value in being able to decouple the learning of one from the other. That’s why in electronics education, beginners typically lash together their first circuits on breadboards, and learn their first soldering on practice boards (that don’t even make circuits). Of course this goes against the “throw them in the deep end” approach, but there are multiple approaches to pedagogy, not to mention that some learners do better the one way, others do better the other. There is no one best approach. Not black and white, just many shades of gray (and colors).
« Last Edit: May 24, 2024, 10:21:52 am by tooki »
 
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Online tggzzz

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Re: Solderless vs. soldering - what a difference (measuring 3V LDO)
« Reply #56 on: May 24, 2024, 10:31:36 am »
You’re absolutely correct. But we can always count on tggzzz to find every mention of the word “breadboard” and inject his absolutist anti-breadboard stance into the discussion. He will never acknowledge or recognize that breadboards have their applications. I’ve tried explaining it multiple times but it’s like talking to a wall, except that walls aren’t as whiny.

That is a clear example of the pot calling the kettle black! Can I suggest you read the thread title and the first post, rather than just being a seagull.

This whole thread is about a problem the OP found using solderless breadboard, which disappeared when they used a better prototype technology.

Q.E.D.
We don’t actually know whether it being breadboarded was actually the root cause of the problem. It could be, but it could also be something like an assembly error which the OP didn’t repeat when assembling on perfboard. Or maybe they have a really bad breadboard (which I consistently advise against), which cannot be taken as a reason to avoid breadboards entirely. (That people have bad experiences with, for example, dollar store screwdrivers doesn’t mean people should abandon screws entirely and weld everything. It means they should buy proper quality screwdrivers.)


As always, the issue I take with you is your absolutist stance. Smart people recognize that the world exists in shades of gray, not black and white, and that even tools with limitations have their purpose.

Thank you for getting round to reading the title and first post…
I read and understood the OP from the very beginning, before you ever commented.

In that case your statement made no sense whatsoever.

Quote
… and tacitally [sic] admitting that you were doing what you falsely claimed I was doing!
I didn’t admit to anything, and no reasonable reading of this thread would perceive it that way. All I stated is that you inject your absolutist stance into every thread you find about breadboarding, and do not in any way EVER entertain the value in breadboards,  two claims which are objectively true. You absolutely see this issue as black and white, in that you are of the opinion that breadboards are always worse than the alternatives, in all situations.

I suppose I might see a black swan, someday.

Quote
The world certainly is not black and white. However there is a relevant proverb: "the race does not always go to the fastest, but that's the way to bet".
What on earth does that have to do with anything?

Sigh. Do I really have to spell it out in terms of black/white/probability?
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Solderless vs. soldering - what a difference (measuring 3V LDO)
« Reply #57 on: May 24, 2024, 01:29:31 pm »
I used to use wire wrap for my digital experiments.  The FPGAs did not have the drive strength control we have today.  The last board I made ran at a 100MHz.  I knew enough by then that getting that board working wasn't too bad.  But that is the reason for so many of those  series resistors in the DIP packages shown at 9:50 in.

EDIT: after having bothered to look at the 20s of the video you pointed to... just so. Wire length (relative to risetime) is the source of the problem, and peversely adding the DIP resistors increases the length. Anyway...

I like wire-wrap, but the stub antennas are, um, suboptimal. Some production 70s computers were wire-wrapped. Wire-wrapped logic became obsolete by the mid 80s. Wire-wrap wire is still very useful; I have a lifetime's supply.
...

I visited one of Western Electric's factories back when they were building some of the production equipment using WW with fully automatic machines. Things were much slower back then.

Sure, you can define when we need to consider a transmission line based on edge rates.  I look it the problem with WW isn't so much the length but rather the lack of having a controlled impedance.   There is a reason on that board that I resorted to coax for the clock distribution. 

I did use WW for the transient generator I designed to test hand held multi-meters.  There was no practical reason for it.  It was more just for the fun of it.   

While one advantage of using 5V technology for constructing such a transient generator may be to improve the immunity,  all that WW sure doesn't help.  Inside I have various shields and ferrite voodoo to prevent the board from faulting out.   

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Solderless vs. soldering - what a difference (measuring 3V LDO)
« Reply #58 on: May 24, 2024, 01:53:02 pm »
Here I am using a solderless breadboard to demonstrate using a low cost VNA to measure PDNs.  No black magic, just some basics.

Demonstrating how to compensate
https://youtu.be/Y8ouApeex78?t=1959

Sweeping to 50MHz
https://youtu.be/Y8ouApeex78?t=2171

Is the breadboard the problem?  Effects of long leads ...
https://youtu.be/Y8ouApeex78?t=2231


 
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Offline shabaz

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Re: Solderless vs. soldering - what a difference (measuring 3V LDO)
« Reply #59 on: May 24, 2024, 03:00:29 pm »
Nice video, and VNA is the epitome of a technology that many people will benefit from, but may initially be unsure to try unless the basics are shown in a friendly way to dive into.

Here's a flyback circuit (well, part of it, I did it in stages), purely to experiment and observe the various signals on a 'scope.

The simple solderless breadboard circuit resonated with a lot of people, I received dozens of comments and it had several thousand views. Many people might not have ever created a flyback power supply circuit in their line of work, so committing straight to a soldered prototype just to experiment a bit doesn't make sense for all.

It was fast to try different component values, and when I was happy to do so, I created a PCB with lots of test points and a few extra features to continue the experimentation. I would never have built that if I had not prototyped on solderless breadboard first, and received the interest/encouragement to want to work on it further, so it was a nice outcome, that the benefits worked both for the readers and for me.

Incidentally, at the top-right of the photo, is a surface-mount diode, with wires soldered on, and then encased in a blob of Polymorph. That stuff is great for quickly securing things. The container says to put the Polymorph beads in water, but instead, I use a hot-air tool to melt the beads, and then mould with fingers. Polymorph has dozens of uses, I like it a lot.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2024, 03:08:35 pm by shabaz »
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Solderless vs. soldering - what a difference (measuring 3V LDO)
« Reply #60 on: May 25, 2024, 06:50:40 am »
I suppose I might see a black swan, someday.

Come to Australia, they're all over the place!

Staying with Oz, in support of the "unimpressed with solderless breadboards" argument.
Throughout my career in electronics, I never saw such a breadboard "used in anger".
A few places had one tucked away unused for years, some still in their original unopened packing.
The general opinion amongst both Techs & EEs was that they were overpriced & unreliable.

The EEs usually built prototypes in "spiderweb" fashion, got a nice PCB made & handed it to a Tech to build----and debug, as things seldom worked as well on a PCB as they did "spiderwebbed".

 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Solderless vs. soldering - what a difference (measuring 3V LDO)
« Reply #61 on: May 25, 2024, 10:21:36 am »
I suppose I might see a black swan, someday.

Come to Australia, they're all over the place!

I ought to come. Between school and uni my daughter came home and announced "Dad, I've bought a plane ticket for 6 months in Australia". Did her the world of good :)


Quote
Staying with Oz, in support of the "unimpressed with solderless breadboards" argument.
Throughout my career in electronics, I never saw such a breadboard "used in anger".
A few places had one tucked away unused for years, some still in their original unopened packing.
The general opinion amongst both Techs & EEs was that they were overpriced & unreliable.

The EEs usually built prototypes in "spiderweb" fashion, got a nice PCB made & handed it to a Tech to build----and debug, as things seldom worked as well on a PCB as they did "spiderwebbed".

My first large PCB was double sided with, IIRC, ~80 LSTTL ICs. I heard afterwards that people were amazed it worked first time. I put that down to laying out Vcc Gnd and decoupling before any signals, and being careful to put ICs where track lengths were minimised. Oh, the PCB was layed out using 2:1 reb/blue/black rubylith tape.


Some professional circuits need to be built with air-gapped components, especially where low currents or high voltages are involved. And, as I have pointed out, others use air gaps between wires as part of the circuit operation, e.g. spot the L69-L70 variable transformer in


Yes, bend the wire to get the circuit working :)

Yes, that variable capacitor, C70 is 1.2-3.5pF, the same as the inter-leaf capacitance in solderless breadboards :)

But then Tektronix engineers always knew how to push technology. (That circuit was in production 1965-1971)
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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