Author Topic: Some 555-Timer-Dies  (Read 5717 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Wolfgang

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1531
  • Country: de
  • Its great if it finally works !
    • Electronic Projects for Fun
Re: Some 555-Timer-Dies
« Reply #50 on: February 29, 2020, 11:58:09 am »
Hi Richi,

of course its good enough. What made me concerned was the strong top abberation in one of your photos. That definitively looked like an artefact. Are your probes in DC mode when measuring ?

Being more like an RF guy I always try to make my stuff shielded, low stray inductance and well blocked.
I agree that this can become a sort of a spleen, see my webpages.

https://electronicprojectsforfun.wordpress.com/rf-measurement-techniques/

Regards
  Wolfgang
 

Offline Noopy

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 546
  • Country: de
    • Richis-Lab
Re: Some 555-Timer-Dies
« Reply #51 on: February 29, 2020, 12:13:29 pm »
Hello Wolfgang,

one could definitly do better measurments.  :-/O
I always try to use free time most efficient and so I try to put effort only where it´s necessary.

I assume the probe was in DC-mode. Right now I´m not sure anymore...

Greetings,

Richard

Offline chris_leyson

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1506
  • Country: wales
Re: Some 555-Timer-Dies
« Reply #52 on: February 29, 2020, 12:54:19 pm »
The design of the original Signetics NE555 by Hans Camenzind is covered in chapter 11 of Designing Analog Chips http://www.designinganalogchips.com/
 
The following users thanked this post: Noopy

Offline Noopy

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 546
  • Country: de
    • Richis-Lab
Re: Some 555-Timer-Dies
« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2020, 08:08:08 pm »
I took some pictures of the TI SN72555:

https://www.richis-lab.de/555_31.htm






Interesting:
The SN72555 (https://www.richis-lab.de/555_31.htm) looks similar to the Signetics NE555 (https://www.richis-lab.de/555_6.htm).
The TI NE555 (https://www.richis-lab.de/555_10.htm) however seems to be a TI-design which you can find only in TI-NE555-variants.

Some guesswork:
Perhaps TI first sold a NE555 based on the Signetics design and developed an own design some years later...
« Last Edit: March 05, 2020, 08:27:10 pm by Noopy »
 

Offline Gyro

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6020
  • Country: gb
Re: Some 555-Timer-Dies
« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2020, 08:20:28 pm »
The whole area of second-sourcing versus copying is a minefield of avoiding copyright and patent / IP infringements.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2020, 09:30:33 pm by Gyro »
Chris

"Victor Meldrew, the Crimson Avenger!"
 

Offline magic

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2700
  • Country: pl
Re: Some 555-Timer-Dies
« Reply #55 on: March 06, 2020, 06:25:01 am »
The marking is sometimes very strange but wouldn´t it be possible that TI has a chinese company building the last few cheap NE555-DIP and they are no longer interested in the perfect quality? The dies of "these modern" TI-NE555 seem to be all the same. There was only one die shrink. Could be a chinese fake-company. Could be a cheap TI-outsourcing...  :-//
I don't think TI has anything to do with those parts. Buy the cheapest TI NE555 you can find from any reputable distributor and I'm pretty sure you will find the original TI die, not the Chinese ones.

In other words, they are random Chinese 555s with the TI logo stamped on them by fraudsters. Sometimes it isn't even TI logo but some shapeless blob vaguely resembling TI logo to make it harder to sue them for trademark infringement. Still, auction site vendors sell it as TI.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2020, 06:30:07 am by magic »
 

Offline Noopy

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 546
  • Country: de
    • Richis-Lab
Re: Some 555-Timer-Dies
« Reply #56 on: March 06, 2020, 03:29:50 pm »
The marking is sometimes very strange but wouldn´t it be possible that TI has a chinese company building the last few cheap NE555-DIP and they are no longer interested in the perfect quality? The dies of "these modern" TI-NE555 seem to be all the same. There was only one die shrink. Could be a chinese fake-company. Could be a cheap TI-outsourcing...  :-//
I don't think TI has anything to do with those parts. Buy the cheapest TI NE555 you can find from any reputable distributor and I'm pretty sure you will find the original TI die, not the Chinese ones.

In other words, they are random Chinese 555s with the TI logo stamped on them by fraudsters. Sometimes it isn't even TI logo but some shapeless blob vaguely resembling TI logo to make it harder to sue them for trademark infringement. Still, auction site vendors sell it as TI.

I´m not sure about this.
I have found these three generations of "chinese TI-NE555" only in packages marked TI NE555.
There have to be plenty parts with this die. After all they made at least three complete mask revisions.
Why should they mark their fake parts only as TI NE555? Over all the years and all the sub marketer? Why not doing some TDB0555? TDB0555 make more money sold on ebay.

With round about 100 decapped NE555-variants I have a significant experience...  ;D

BTW: Beside the "chinese TI-NE555" till now I found no recognizable fake.

Offline Noopy

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 546
  • Country: de
    • Richis-Lab
Re: Some 555-Timer-Dies
« Reply #57 on: March 06, 2020, 09:23:01 pm »
I opened a LMC555:

https://richis-lab.de/555_32.htm

Does anybody know what these chinese or japanese characters stand for:



Online Wolfgang

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1531
  • Country: de
  • Its great if it finally works !
    • Electronic Projects for Fun
Re: Some 555-Timer-Dies
« Reply #58 on: March 06, 2020, 10:37:12 pm »
Good idea. I'd love that one too.
 

Offline Noopy

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 546
  • Country: de
    • Richis-Lab
Re: Some 555-Timer-Dies
« Reply #59 on: March 06, 2020, 10:47:10 pm »
Kudos for the outstanding work.
Could you do some of the oldies that are best sellers from China, like LM324 LM358, TL072 op amps? Possibly comparing them with original parts. I am curious to see the differences.

I would love to see a legendary LM10 - Widlar's masterpiece - but I guess it would be a sacrilege to decap one.
I would use it as desktop wallpaper.

Thanks!  :-+

Since my decap-ofen works very well by now I can do a lot of die-pictures.
There are two ways to see what´s inside these ICs:
1. You (or somebody else) send me some parts. => A fast way to get pictures and often there are poeple having a lot of special parts in stock you will never find on ebay. (More coming soon...  8))
2. I put them on my to-do-list. => Will be done as soon as the mailbag gets empty and I find the right parts for a reasonable price.

 :popcorn:

Offline magic

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2700
  • Country: pl
Re: Some 555-Timer-Dies
« Reply #60 on: March 06, 2020, 11:01:13 pm »
Could you do some of the oldies that are best sellers from China, like LM324 LM358, TL072 op amps? Possibly comparing them with original parts. I am curious to see the differences.
The difference is that TL072 from China are LM358 inside :P

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/opamp-input-offsets-working-in-the-opposite-direction-to-what-i-expect/25/

There was more similar threads. Oftentimes crossover distortion was the giveaway.
 
The following users thanked this post: Sredni

Offline Noopy

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 546
  • Country: de
    • Richis-Lab
Re: Some 555-Timer-Dies
« Reply #61 on: March 16, 2020, 09:22:09 am »
I opened a LMC555:

https://richis-lab.de/555_32.htm

Does anybody know what these chinese or japanese characters stand for:



The upper two characters stand for the chinese surname Zheng.

One left...

Offline magic

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2700
  • Country: pl
Re: Some 555-Timer-Dies
« Reply #62 on: March 16, 2020, 07:22:49 pm »
I posted some fake opamps here
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/whats-inside-the-cheapest-and-fakest-jellybean-opamps/

The pics were taken with a compact camera looking through inverted webcam lens and quality isn't as good as Noopy's, but one can get some idea, particularly when everything from LM358 through UA741 to TL071 looks almost identical ;D

Funny that you ask about LM2596 because I recently bought one of those boards for some project. It seems you are familiar with them, are they good for anything or unusable junk? I will try it myself anyway and if it proves insufficient for my needs I may tear the sucker down. I will check switching frequency too. Wouldn't that necessitate larger capacitors and inductor to meet the same specs? Haha, what a piece of crap.

BTW, what's 2577? I tried LM2577 but that's a boost converter.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2020, 07:25:22 pm by magic »
 

Offline Noopy

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 546
  • Country: de
    • Richis-Lab
Re: Some 555-Timer-Dies
« Reply #63 on: March 16, 2020, 08:48:14 pm »
Kudos for the outstanding work.
Could you do some of the oldies that are best sellers from China, like LM324 LM358, TL072 op amps? Possibly comparing them with original parts. I am curious to see the differences.

I would love to see a legendary LM10 - Widlar's masterpiece - but I guess it would be a sacrilege to decap one.
I would use it as desktop wallpaper.

Thanks!  :-+

Since my decap-ofen works very well by now I can do a lot of die-pictures.
There are two ways to see what´s inside these ICs:
1. You (or somebody else) send me some parts. => A fast way to get pictures and often there are poeple having a lot of special parts in stock you will never find on ebay. (More coming soon...  8))
2. I put them on my to-do-list. => Will be done as soon as the mailbag gets empty and I find the right parts for a reasonable price.

 :popcorn:

Ah, I've finally found the thread, thanks to the person who resuscitated it.
I do not have an LM10 at hand, and if I had one you should pry it from my cold dead hands.  ;D
I could send you a chinese LM358 and some very old IBM chips that were part of old mainframes. I should have some boards somewhere in the attic. I need to organize an expedition, first.

But right now I would have some problems in going to the post office.

 :-+ ;D

Are these x€-LM10 on Ebay genuine parts? Well that investment would be ok for me...

If you aren´t allowed to go to the post office you have time for the attic!  ;)
If you have some interesting chips it would be a pleasure to take pictures of them.  :-+


The pics were taken with a compact camera looking through inverted webcam lens...

Nice!  ;D :-+

Offline magic

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2700
  • Country: pl
Re: Some 555-Timer-Dies
« Reply #64 on: March 16, 2020, 09:39:02 pm »
For a few euro they are available from RS, TME, Farnell, Digikey... Not sure how international shipping will work given that whole coronocrap situation, though.

Check if they are available at AliExpress for less than $1. If not, chances are that fakes haven't been made yet ;)
 

Offline Noopy

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 546
  • Country: de
    • Richis-Lab
Re: Some 555-Timer-Dies
« Reply #65 on: March 16, 2020, 09:52:53 pm »
Right now I have enough work in my inbox but as soon as it gets empty...  ;D

Offline Noopy

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 546
  • Country: de
    • Richis-Lab
Re: Some 555-Timer-Dies
« Reply #66 on: April 13, 2020, 09:05:39 pm »
I have taken pictures of more RCA CA555:

https://www.richis-lab.de/555_11.htm

They changed the design of the differential amplifier the trigger input is connected to.
There was a normal Darlington configuration. In the newer design the first transistor is connected directly to ground.





In my view that was done to improve the speed of the circuit.


Here you can find the overview over all decapped NE555-variants:

https://www.richis-lab.de/555.htm


Offline Crumble

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 97
Re: Some 555-Timer-Dies
« Reply #67 on: May 17, 2020, 12:28:23 pm »
Hi Noopy, very interesting site you have there! I ran across it when we were discussing a fake LM338K from eBay on a Dutch forum, and it gave us very interesting material to compare the die to. Shortly after I found myself just scrolling through all the articles on your site. Keep it going! :-+
 

Offline Noopy

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 546
  • Country: de
    • Richis-Lab
Re: Some 555-Timer-Dies
« Reply #68 on: May 17, 2020, 12:41:53 pm »
Hello Crumble,

I´m very happy to hear you found my website interesting and valuable.  :-+

I still have many interesting parts to upload. Just was in the basement and took 8GB new photos.  ;D  :popcorn:

Offline jh15

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 497
  • Country: us
Re: Some 555-Timer-Dies
« Reply #69 on: May 18, 2020, 04:23:31 pm »
One of the legacy Boeing 747 instruments has a 555 flatpak and a unijunction transistor. I think the uni was in the same instrument. indicator air speed or true airspeed indicator. Long ago. One thing was newer techs would ask: what drugs were those designers on?  I would point out among other things, the minimum of electrolytic capacitors.
tek 575 curve tracer top shape, 535 top shape, 465. 545 Hickok clone, Tesla Model S,  Ohio Scientific c24P single board computer, many c-64 from my club days, Giant electric bicycle, Rigol stuff, Heathkit AR-15 receivers, Heathkit et 3400a trainer and interface,
 

Offline Noopy

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 546
  • Country: de
    • Richis-Lab
Re: Some 555-Timer-Dies
« Reply #70 on: May 18, 2020, 07:26:37 pm »
One of the legacy Boeing 747 instruments has a 555 flatpak and a unijunction transistor. I think the uni was in the same instrument. indicator air speed or true airspeed indicator. Long ago. One thing was newer techs would ask: what drugs were those designers on?  I would point out among other things, the minimum of electrolytic capacitors.

You can use the NE555 for everything!  ;D

One more TI NE555 with the "B-design":






https://richis-lab.de/555_10.htm


 :popcorn:

Offline Noopy

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 546
  • Country: de
    • Richis-Lab
Re: Some 555-Timer-Dies
« Reply #71 on: May 30, 2020, 09:27:24 pm »
Today I have a Silicon General SG555 for you:

https://richis-lab.de/555_35.htm






 
The following users thanked this post: exe, laneboysrc, Wolfgang

Offline Noopy

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 546
  • Country: de
    • Richis-Lab
Re: Some 555-Timer-Dies
« Reply #72 on: July 09, 2020, 08:32:24 pm »
I have uploaded a new HA17555:

https://www.richis-lab.de/555_18.htm

This one has no polyimide coating what gives besser pictures:





 :popcorn:

Offline Noopy

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 546
  • Country: de
    • Richis-Lab
Re: Some 555-Timer-Dies
« Reply #73 on: October 26, 2020, 10:06:08 pm »



I have a new B555 for you! It´s a "Bastlertyp", a part that didn´t fulfill all specifications.






Well, nothing special to see...  ;D


https://www.richis-lab.de/555_3.htm

 :-/O
 
The following users thanked this post: serg-el

Offline Unixon

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 276
Re: Some 555-Timer-Dies
« Reply #74 on: October 27, 2020, 12:04:46 am »
This is all beautiful and sad at the same time.
On one hand it is fascinating to see all the different approaches to silicon design and on the other hand it is unbelievably disappointing to see how many hours of engineering work has been wasted to re-create the same old 555 circuit that was already there. And you all know why - patents and copyright. I would be happy to attribute this to NIH syndrome, but I guess it's not its fault.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf