Author Topic: Some 555-Timer-Dies (Read 21219 times)

Noopy · « **on:** May 01, 2019, 10:19:08 pm »

Hi all,

I made some photos of the different 555-Timers available in the wide world.
Perhaps you are interested in the different designs:
http://www.richis-lab.de/555.htm
Text is german but pictures are international and Google-Translator is your friend.

Greetings,

Richard

TimNJ · « **Reply #1 on:** May 01, 2019, 10:25:48 pm »

This is awesome! Interesting how they are all very similar (in terms of semiconductor features), yet still quite different from manufacturer to manufacturer.

Noopy · « **Reply #2 on:** May 02, 2019, 06:25:13 am »

Thanks!

In the 555 manufactured by TI I found the same dies as zeptobars posted (https://zeptobars.com/en/read/Ti-555-NE555-real-vs-face-china-chinese):
=> http://www.richis-lab.de/555_10.htm

What zeptobars didn´t mention: It seems that in the "medium size die" the masks weren´t properly aligned:

Looking at this picture it´s amazing that the chip is working.

//Matt// · « **Reply #3 on:** May 02, 2019, 06:39:09 pm »

Very interesting. Nice work.

Noopy · « **Reply #4 on:** May 03, 2019, 08:55:18 am »

Thanks!

If you are interested in my projects I can post here whenever I´ve got something new.

Comments on my page will be german but here we can discuss whatever you are interested in...

BravoV · « **Reply #5 on:** May 03, 2019, 09:00:03 am »

LM317 and it's variants please ...

Noopy · « **Reply #6 on:** May 03, 2019, 09:02:02 am »

LM317? Are there so many variants too?
Interesting...

BravoV · « **Reply #7 on:** May 03, 2019, 09:08:32 am »

Quote from: Noopy on May 03, 2019, 09:02:02 am

LM317? Are there so many variants too?
Interesting...

I do remember, many2 years go, using brute force + hammer + screw driver tip

, strip naked a National Semiconductor's LM317 vs ST's one or TI's one, I don't remember which, and the exposed dies clearly were different to naked eyes.

We all know there are soooo many 317 variants out there manufactured by so many companies.

amyk · « **Reply #8 on:** May 03, 2019, 11:34:30 am »

Quote from: Noopy on May 02, 2019, 06:25:13 am

In the 555 manufactured by TI I found the same dies as zeptobars posted (https://zeptobars.com/en/read/Ti-555-NE555-real-vs-face-china-chinese):
=> http://www.richis-lab.de/555_10.htm

Interesting that the last die on your page is very similar to the second zeptobars one, but with some small changes like the lack of the "X" logo in the upper left, and they're both seem to be based on the G1083 layout and then "compressed". Also observe that your die still has some diagonal traces, but the "X" one from zeptobars doesn't have any (except the logo itself, ironically enough...)

Others here probably know much more about the topic of trace direction in IC layout; could it have to do with different fab processes and design rules?

Noopy · « **Reply #9 on:** May 03, 2019, 11:47:01 am »

Quote from: amyk on May 03, 2019, 11:34:30 am

Quote from: Noopy on May 02, 2019, 06:25:13 am
In the 555 manufactured by TI I found the same dies as zeptobars posted (https://zeptobars.com/en/read/Ti-555-NE555-real-vs-face-china-chinese):
=> http://www.richis-lab.de/555_10.htm
Interesting that the last die on your page is very similar to the second zeptobars one, but with some small changes like the lack of the "X" logo in the upper left, and they're both seem to be based on the G1083 layout and then "compressed". Also observe that your die still has some diagonal traces, but the "X" one from zeptobars doesn't have any (except the logo itself, ironically enough...)

Others here probably know much more about the topic of trace direction in IC layout; could it have to do with different fab processes and design rules?

You are right. Didn´t realize that.

Another interesting point although obvious: The last die on my page has an edge length of 600µm while the first one is 1,1mm x 1,1mm. That means that they get nearly four Dies out of what was in 1996 the area of only one die (assuming they don´t need too much space to separate them).

Does anybody have a bunch of different LM317 and wants to send them to germany?

Noopy · « **Reply #10 on:** August 22, 2019, 10:07:38 pm »

I bought new NE555P on Amazon. Very ugly markings on this chip:

It seems that there are a lot of "cheap TI NE555P" available:

And here the upper one:

Whole Story here (german):

https://www.richis-lab.de/555.htm

Have fun!

No NE555 but also interesting: The available 2N3055:

https://www.richis-lab.de/2N3055.htm

magic · « **Reply #11 on:** August 23, 2019, 04:42:33 am »

What are you using to take those pics and how much magnification is it?

Noopy · « **Reply #12 on:** August 23, 2019, 05:07:33 am »

I will soon post some explanations to this topic.

I use a normal DSLR with a so called retro adapter to mount the lens reversed.
In between I add some extension bellows.
Than with a little bit of practice and some learning how to do it best you get really nice Pictures.

Magnification should be around 20.
The sensor is 2,3cm wide and I can zoom in to a width of a little more than 1,1mm.
More magnification ist possible but you don´t get more details. I think you can´t do better with such kind of tool.
But the picture has 18 Megapixel! The theorethical resolution is 0,4µm.

According to my experience the actual resolution limit is around 5µm. On a good day and with a little bit of interpolation perhaps 3µm or 2µm.

More to this topic coming soon...

Noopy · « **Reply #13 on:** September 03, 2019, 10:11:59 pm »

Hi magic,
Hi all,

today I´m proudly presenting:

The Howto Decapping and Documentation

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/decapping-and-chip-documentation-howto/

Sorry, german as usual but ask me whatever you want!

Noopy · « **Reply #14 on:** January 04, 2020, 10:58:35 pm »

Hi all,

still interested in 555-dies?

I can now compare the NE555, the SA555 and the SE555 from TI:

The NE555 seems to be newer but there aren´t any functional differences as far as I can see.
I´ll try to get a newer SA555 or SE555 to check whether there is also a 555A or the 555B of the newer NE555.

As usual everything here in german: www.richis-lab.de

Noopy · « **Reply #15 on:** January 10, 2020, 11:09:15 pm »

Hi all,

I found an interesting NE555-Timer:

I have no idea where the NE555 was manufactured.
It looks like the Fairchild-555-Timer:

The interesting point is:
They left the Transistor Q7 (usual NE555-schematic) unconnected on the die!

I assume they had problems with oscillations because of the differential amplifier spread all over the right side of the die.

Whole story on my site (in german):
https://richis-lab.de/555_21.htm

Noopy · « **Reply #16 on:** January 13, 2020, 09:06:34 pm »

Hi all!

Still interested in NE555s? Please give me some feedback. Writing english is more work for me than writing in a german speaking forum.

I have decapped a Signetics-NE555 with a 1977-datecode and one with a 1976-datecode:
https://richis-lab.de/555_6.htm (please scroll down)

The die provides no new Information but I found a interesting difference:

The 1977-one has an bond wire between the ground-pin and the casing:

In the 1976-NE555 the casing is isolated from the ground-pin:

Well it has some connection across the substrate but what will happen if there is a ESD or a capacitive coupling to the casing that travels through the die?

Greetings,

Richard

Wolfgang · « **Reply #17 on:** January 13, 2020, 09:44:56 pm »

Quote from: Noopy on May 01, 2019, 10:19:08 pm

Hi all,

I made some photos of the different 555-Timers available in the wide world.
Perhaps you are interested in the different designs:
http://www.richis-lab.de/555.htm
Text is german but pictures are international and Google-Translator is your friend.

Greetings,

Richard

Hi,

nice work !
Could you do an LM723 too ?

regards
Wolfgang

Noopy · « **Reply #18 on:** January 13, 2020, 09:53:12 pm »

Hello Wolfgang,

thanks!

Well I can do a LM723 too.
Give me some time. I will get back to you.

Greetings,

Richard

Wimberleytech · « **Reply #19 on:** January 13, 2020, 10:11:15 pm »

Great work.
As I was panning down, I was going to suggest a vintage 555. I have a few from the '70s...and then you presented them!!

It would be nice to have those photographed like the other die (light colinear with optical path or something).

Noopy · « **Reply #20 on:** January 13, 2020, 10:21:31 pm »

Thanks!

I have a Signetics dating 1973. Must be one of the first! Coming soon in the same quality as every other die...

...but I´m working on my equipment. Perhaps I can get the quality a little bit better.
The ofen was a good step: https://richis-lab.de/decap-ofen.htm
And now I will try some optical flips to get the resolution even better. But I´m not sure how much more I can achieve with my low-cost-microscope.

PS: On my page (https://richis-lab.de/555.htm) there are more pictures, also of these old Signetics. I always put only the most important pictures here.

Wolfgang · « **Reply #21 on:** January 14, 2020, 10:12:09 am »

Quote from: Noopy on January 13, 2020, 09:53:12 pm

Hello Wolfgang,

thanks!

Well I can do a LM723 too.
Give me some time. I will get back to you.

Greetings,

Richard

Hi,

if interested about some LM723 stuff, I have some material on my website:
https://electronicprojectsforfun.wordpress.com/power-supplies/a-collection-of-proper-design-practices-using-the-lm723-ic-regulator/

regards
Wolfgang

GeorgeOfTheJungle · « **Reply #22 on:** January 17, 2020, 12:36:57 pm »

=>

Noopy · « **Reply #23 on:** January 18, 2020, 11:08:03 pm »

Hello again!

I have interesting news about the famous NE555!

I decapped a UTC555 manufactured by Youwang Electronics.

The quality of the picture is not as good as some other pictures I have taken but it´s obvious that the circuit is the same as in the "147 NE555". It´s the Fairchild-NE555 with a deactivated Q7 transistor.

As I had three of the UTC555 I was able to do some comparative measurements:

The CMOS-timer TLC555 is able to switch with 2MHz and shows a correct duty factor of 75%.

The original Fairchild LM555 can also switch with 2MHz. Only the duty factor is a little bit smaler.

The UTC555 can only switch with round about 0,6MHz and it switches unstable.

A new TI NE555 switches a little bit more slowly but works stable.

It appears to me that the NE555-variants were made more slowly over the years of development. For most usecases that´s ok. Hopefully you don´t have a fast circuit were you have to renew an old NE555.

Whole story here:
https://www.richis-lab.de/555_22.htm

Greetings,

Richard

floobydust · « **Reply #24 on:** January 19, 2020, 12:30:01 am »

I guess there are differences between 555's. This truth table from Tony van Roon (VA3AVR) site.

Noopy · « **Reply #25 on:** January 19, 2020, 08:18:19 am »

Absoluty right.

I recently got a document showing the differences between some more versions of the 555.
Perhaps I´ll draw some schematics of the 555-variants as soon as I find free time.

Perhaps I find some parts that are not in the datasheets.

magic · « **Reply #26 on:** January 19, 2020, 08:44:56 am »

You are sure that the Fairchild/TI chips that you decap are genuine?

Zeptobars has already posted pictures of some chips they thought were real, but it later turned out they were fakes.

Noopy · « **Reply #27 on:** January 19, 2020, 08:59:11 am »

Quote from: magic on January 19, 2020, 08:44:56 am

You are sure that the Fairchild/TI chips that you decap are genuine?

No, not 100% sure.

You can only conclude what is likely in view of the appearence of the die.

magic · « **Reply #28 on:** January 19, 2020, 11:00:03 am »

I don't know what genuine Fairchild chips are supposed to look like, but that style of DIP8 package with grainy top and two perfectly flat bands along the edges is something I have only seen on fake chips so far. Specifically, on fake NE5532 (I still don't know what they really are, but certainly not recycled 5532s and not the common RC4558-style counterfeits identified by Zeptobals) and on an NE555 which was marked "TI", but IMO it isn't real TI because all TI packages from legitimate sources I've seen so far don't have those flat bands, only a dot in the corner.

The notch on the UTC package looks very similar to a lot of fake chips these days, maybe those chips are rebranded Youwang or maybe somebody else just uses similar molds as Youwang or maybe the chip you decapped is a fake Youwang

Noopy · « **Reply #29 on:** January 19, 2020, 02:32:58 pm »

In my view the outer appearance can be misleading especially in case of the 555 which has been produced for nearly 50 years by many companies.

For example this one looks very strange to me:

But the die is nearly the same as in this one which looks also unusual but not really fake:

In fact the history speaks for an original:
The lower is a older Sescosem which changed to Thomson (the upper one). Inside are the same dies but slightly revised.
You can´t be 100% sure but thats convincing for me.

Also this one looks kind of strange:

But the die seems to be the right one:

Let´s discuss what a (555-)fake is:

1. There is no die or a completely different die
You will find out very quickly.

2. It was some old 555 which was relabeled to make it look new or more expensive (special company)
If the original die has a marking or a structure which is known you can recognize the fake.
But especially with newer or "no-name" products you can´t be sure whether it´s a relabeled fake or they have bought the design.
With every 555-die you see your success rate in recognizing relabeled fakes gets higher as you know a lot designs and see different kind of for example a TI NE555.

3. A new 555-design is labeled with a "famous" 555-name
I´m not sure whether that´s a good business model anyway. You have to design a new chip which you can sell only very cheap.
Such "die-fakes" are a good opportunity to earn some money if you can put a cheap existing die (for example a medium power NPN) in a more costly package (2N3055 or some newer design).
I found this strange TI-NE555-dies which I posted further up and were also posted by zeptobars. They could fit in catogery 3 but I´m not sure.
See also: https://www.richis-lab.de/555_10.htm
The marking is sometimes very strange but wouldn´t it be possible that TI has a chinese company building the last few cheap NE555-DIP and they are no longer interested in the perfect quality? The dies of "these modern" TI-NE555 seem to be all the same. There was only one die shrink. Could be a chinese fake-company. Could be a cheap TI-outsourcing...

Noopy · « **Reply #30 on:** January 27, 2020, 11:03:12 pm »

Today I have a TDB0555 produced by Siemens:

It seems that they had an own design.
It has interesting resistors with round edges.

Apparently the 555 had seen corrosive chemicals. There is severe damage around some bondpads.

Whole story here (in german):

https://www.richis-lab.de/555_24.htm

floobydust · « **Reply #31 on:** January 28, 2020, 03:59:33 am »

I have heard of failures due to aggressive flux getting into plastic DIP packages. Looked at some IC failures at https://www.semlab.com/examples/deviceexamples/ but nothing sorta matched what you have.
SEMLab Example 4 corrosion "... In addition, fractures were found in the plastic molding compound suggesting that the parts were damaged by “popcorning” during solder reflow."
Some SEMLAB pictures can help identify corrosion, ESD or overcurrent damage on dies. The Siemens die looked very nice.

Looking in my junk bin, the oldest 555's I have - Fairchild 7728, Exar 8142 and CA555E RCA141. PM if these are interesting, I can part with them.

Noopy · « **Reply #32 on:** January 28, 2020, 04:24:02 am »

Interesting link! Thanks for that one!

I am interested in your 555-variants!

You got PM!

Noopy · « **Reply #33 on:** January 31, 2020, 08:16:59 pm »

A new variant of the famous NE555:

A ROHM BA222
https://www.richis-lab.de/555_25.htm

Quite interesting (for people who are interested in the NE555-history).

Besides the study of the die there is a nice cluster of three different resistor types:

- Normal resistors build with the base-material.
- Low-resistance resistor build with the emitter-material.
- High-resistance resistor build with base-material and an overlay of the emitter-material so that the cross section of the resistor is reduced.

Some squares and you get:
- Green resistors: 4,7kOhm, 4,7kOhm, 200Ohm /// 40,5sq, 41sq, 1,5sq
=> 115 - 147Ohm/sq
- Yellow resistor: 100Ohm /// 2,5sq
=> 40Ohm/sq
- Blue resistor: 100kOhm /// 25sq
=> 4,2kOhm/sq

aheid · « **Reply #34 on:** January 31, 2020, 10:10:56 pm »

Awesome work, thanks!

Noopy · « **Reply #35 on:** January 31, 2020, 10:38:31 pm »

Thanks for the feedback! Keeps me doing what I do.

Noopy · « **Reply #36 on:** February 04, 2020, 06:59:53 pm »

Today a CMOS-version:

Nothing very special but nice to see a CMOS-NE555 with smaler structures and protection circuits at the bondpads...

Noopy · « **Reply #37 on:** February 04, 2020, 08:40:41 pm »

Damn, the link is missing!

https://www.richis-lab.de/555_26.htm

Noopy · « **Reply #38 on:** February 12, 2020, 10:56:16 pm »

Today I have four Intersil ICM7555 for you:

https://www.richis-lab.de/555_27.htm

I´m not sure which one is the newer design or whether there is a newer design anyway. Hm...

Noopy · « **Reply #39 on:** February 13, 2020, 11:02:06 pm »

Some TLC555:

https://www.richis-lab.de/555_7.htm

CMOS-LTP

Noopy · « **Reply #40 on:** February 15, 2020, 08:54:44 am »

Raytheon RC555:
https://www.richis-lab.de/555_28.htm

And Raytheon RM555:
https://www.richis-lab.de/555_29.htm

Noopy · « **Reply #41 on:** February 21, 2020, 10:15:08 pm »

I got a new Siemens TDB0555:

https://www.richis-lab.de/555_24.htm#Update

It looks different than the first one.
Sometime I´ll have to create a NE555-bloodline...

texaspyro · « **Reply #42 on:** February 24, 2020, 02:30:08 am »

If you are in the Dallas, Texas area Tanner Electronics has some 555's from the first year of manufacturing (1972). They are $3 each. Tanner does not do mail order.

Noopy · « **Reply #43 on:** February 24, 2020, 04:31:20 am »

Quote from: texaspyro on February 24, 2020, 02:30:08 am

If you are in the Dallas, Texas area Tanner Electronics has some 555's from the first year of manufacturing (1972). They are $3 each. Tanner does not do mail order.

Not today and not tomorrow but who knows perhaps I have to take a vacation in Texas.

Thanks for the hint!

texaspyro · « **Reply #44 on:** February 24, 2020, 04:57:22 am »

Quote from: Noopy on February 24, 2020, 04:31:20 am

Quote from: texaspyro on February 24, 2020, 02:30:08 am
If you are in the Dallas, Texas area Tanner Electronics has some 555's from the first year of manufacturing (1972). They are $3 each. Tanner does not do mail order.

Not today and not tomorrow but who knows perhaps I have to take a vacation in Texas.
Thanks for the hint!

Unless Tanner can find a new, affordable store location by June... they will be closing. That would be a devastating loss to humanity.

Noopy · « **Reply #45 on:** February 28, 2020, 09:43:59 pm »

Thanks to floobydust et al. here more Fairchild 555-dies:

https://www.richis-lab.de/555_30.htm

It seems that Fairchild used different designs in the LM555 and in the µA555.

Does anybody know why they had two different 555-variants?

magic · « **Reply #46 on:** February 28, 2020, 10:52:56 pm »

Fairchild acquired Raytheon's and later Samsung's semiconductor divisions in the 90s. That's how they ended up with two different 5532s, for example. And they had their own designs to begin with.

In particular, looking for Fairchild LM555 datasheets I found a Samsung-style datasheet but with Fairchild logo.
http://www.elenota.pl/datasheet-pdf/158320/Fairchild-Semiconductor/LM555

The LM555 could also be fake.

Noopy · « **Reply #47 on:** February 28, 2020, 11:03:11 pm »

Quote from: magic on February 28, 2020, 10:52:56 pm

Fairchild acquired Raytheon's and later Samsung's semiconductor divisions in the 90s. That's how they ended up with two different 5532s, for example. And they had their own designs to begin with.

A view minutes ago I was told that Fairchild belonged to National from 1987 to 1997.

Quote from: magic on February 28, 2020, 10:52:56 pm

The LM555 could also be fake.

I always said that you can´t be 100% sure whether a part is a fake-part. But somehow I don´t think the LM555 is a fake. We will see as soon as I have mor LM555...

Wolfgang · « **Reply #48 on:** February 29, 2020, 12:45:50 am »

Quote from: Noopy on February 28, 2020, 09:43:59 pm

Thanks to floobydust et al. here more Fairchild 555-dies:

https://www.richis-lab.de/555_30.htm

It seems that Fairchild used different designs in the LM555 and in the µA555.

Does anybody know why they had two different 555-variants?

Hi Richi,

thanks again for your interesting die analysis work. One comment, however:
Your setup for measuring 555 risetimes and waveforms I dont like too much. I think it should be
made on a groundplane, and better supply decoupling as well as probing via 450R resistors directly into the (50R)
scope inputs where possible. To me the waveforms look like deformed by excessive lead length and some strays.

Noopy · « **Reply #49 on:** February 29, 2020, 07:28:27 am »

Quote from: Wolfgang on February 29, 2020, 12:45:50 am

Quote from: Noopy on February 28, 2020, 09:43:59 pm
Thanks to floobydust et al. here more Fairchild 555-dies:

https://www.richis-lab.de/555_30.htm

It seems that Fairchild used different designs in the LM555 and in the µA555.

Does anybody know why they had two different 555-variants?

Hi Richi,

thanks again for your interesting die analysis work. One comment, however:
Your setup for measuring 555 risetimes and waveforms I dont like too much. I think it should be
made on a groundplane, and better supply decoupling as well as probing via 450R resistors directly into the (50R)
scope inputs where possible. To me the waveforms look like deformed by excessive lead length and some strays.

Hello Wolfgang,

I know the measurement circuit isn´t perfect but looking at the performance of the CMOS-555 it is good enough:

All artefacts on top of this square are caused by the particular bipolar 555.

With this in mind that should be ok?

Greetings,

Richard

Wolfgang · « **Reply #50 on:** February 29, 2020, 11:58:09 am »

Hi Richi,

of course its good enough. What made me concerned was the strong top abberation in one of your photos. That definitively looked like an artefact. Are your probes in DC mode when measuring ?

Being more like an RF guy I always try to make my stuff shielded, low stray inductance and well blocked.
I agree that this can become a sort of a spleen, see my webpages.

https://electronicprojectsforfun.wordpress.com/rf-measurement-techniques/

Regards
Wolfgang

Noopy · « **Reply #51 on:** February 29, 2020, 12:13:29 pm »

Hello Wolfgang,

one could definitly do better measurments.

I always try to use free time most efficient and so I try to put effort only where it´s necessary.

I assume the probe was in DC-mode. Right now I´m not sure anymore...

Greetings,

Richard

chris_leyson · « **Reply #52 on:** February 29, 2020, 12:54:19 pm »

The design of the original Signetics NE555 by Hans Camenzind is covered in chapter 11 of Designing Analog Chips http://www.designinganalogchips.com/

Noopy · « **Reply #53 on:** March 05, 2020, 08:08:08 pm »

I took some pictures of the TI SN72555:

https://www.richis-lab.de/555_31.htm

Interesting:
The SN72555 (https://www.richis-lab.de/555_31.htm) looks similar to the Signetics NE555 (https://www.richis-lab.de/555_6.htm).
The TI NE555 (https://www.richis-lab.de/555_10.htm) however seems to be a TI-design which you can find only in TI-NE555-variants.

Some guesswork:
Perhaps TI first sold a NE555 based on the Signetics design and developed an own design some years later...

Gyro · « **Reply #54 on:** March 05, 2020, 08:20:28 pm »

The whole area of second-sourcing versus copying is a minefield of avoiding copyright and patent / IP infringements.

magic · « **Reply #55 on:** March 06, 2020, 06:25:01 am »

Quote from: Noopy on January 19, 2020, 02:32:58 pm

The marking is sometimes very strange but wouldn´t it be possible that TI has a chinese company building the last few cheap NE555-DIP and they are no longer interested in the perfect quality? The dies of "these modern" TI-NE555 seem to be all the same. There was only one die shrink. Could be a chinese fake-company. Could be a cheap TI-outsourcing...

I don't think TI has anything to do with those parts. Buy the cheapest TI NE555 you can find from any reputable distributor and I'm pretty sure you will find the original TI die, not the Chinese ones.

In other words, they are random Chinese 555s with the TI logo stamped on them by fraudsters. Sometimes it isn't even TI logo but some shapeless blob vaguely resembling TI logo to make it harder to sue them for trademark infringement. Still, auction site vendors sell it as TI.

Noopy · « **Reply #56 on:** March 06, 2020, 03:29:50 pm »

Quote from: magic on March 06, 2020, 06:25:01 am

Quote from: Noopy on January 19, 2020, 02:32:58 pm
The marking is sometimes very strange but wouldn´t it be possible that TI has a chinese company building the last few cheap NE555-DIP and they are no longer interested in the perfect quality? The dies of "these modern" TI-NE555 seem to be all the same. There was only one die shrink. Could be a chinese fake-company. Could be a cheap TI-outsourcing...
I don't think TI has anything to do with those parts. Buy the cheapest TI NE555 you can find from any reputable distributor and I'm pretty sure you will find the original TI die, not the Chinese ones.

In other words, they are random Chinese 555s with the TI logo stamped on them by fraudsters. Sometimes it isn't even TI logo but some shapeless blob vaguely resembling TI logo to make it harder to sue them for trademark infringement. Still, auction site vendors sell it as TI.

I´m not sure about this.
I have found these three generations of "chinese TI-NE555" only in packages marked TI NE555.
There have to be plenty parts with this die. After all they made at least three complete mask revisions.
Why should they mark their fake parts only as TI NE555? Over all the years and all the sub marketer? Why not doing some TDB0555? TDB0555 make more money sold on ebay.

With round about 100 decapped NE555-variants I have a significant experience...

BTW: Beside the "chinese TI-NE555" till now I found no recognizable fake.

Noopy · « **Reply #57 on:** March 06, 2020, 09:23:01 pm »

I opened a LMC555:

https://richis-lab.de/555_32.htm

Does anybody know what these chinese or japanese characters stand for:

Wolfgang · « **Reply #58 on:** March 06, 2020, 10:37:12 pm »

Good idea. I'd love that one too.

Noopy · « **Reply #59 on:** March 06, 2020, 10:47:10 pm »

Quote from: Sredni on March 06, 2020, 10:33:26 pm

Kudos for the outstanding work.
Could you do some of the oldies that are best sellers from China, like ~~LM324~~ LM358, TL072 op amps? Possibly comparing them with original parts. I am curious to see the differences.

I would love to see a legendary LM10 - Widlar's masterpiece - but I guess it would be a sacrilege to decap one.
I would use it as desktop wallpaper.

Thanks!

Since my decap-ofen works very well by now I can do a lot of die-pictures.
There are two ways to see what´s inside these ICs:
1. You (or somebody else) send me some parts. => A fast way to get pictures and often there are poeple having a lot of special parts in stock you will never find on ebay. (More coming soon...

)
2. I put them on my to-do-list. => Will be done as soon as the mailbag gets empty and I find the right parts for a reasonable price.

magic · « **Reply #60 on:** March 06, 2020, 11:01:13 pm »

Quote from: Sredni on March 06, 2020, 10:33:26 pm

Could you do some of the oldies that are best sellers from China, like ~~LM324~~ LM358, TL072 op amps? Possibly comparing them with original parts. I am curious to see the differences.

The difference is that TL072 from China are LM358 inside

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/opamp-input-offsets-working-in-the-opposite-direction-to-what-i-expect/25/

There was more similar threads. Oftentimes crossover distortion was the giveaway.

Noopy · « **Reply #61 on:** March 16, 2020, 09:22:09 am »

Quote from: Noopy on March 06, 2020, 09:23:01 pm

I opened a LMC555:

https://richis-lab.de/555_32.htm

Does anybody know what these chinese or japanese characters stand for:

The upper two characters stand for the chinese surname Zheng.

One left...

magic · « **Reply #62 on:** March 16, 2020, 07:22:49 pm »

I posted some fake opamps here
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/whats-inside-the-cheapest-and-fakest-jellybean-opamps/

The pics were taken with a compact camera looking through inverted webcam lens and quality isn't as good as Noopy's, but one can get some idea, particularly when everything from LM358 through UA741 to TL071 looks almost identical

Funny that you ask about LM2596 because I recently bought one of those boards for some project. It seems you are familiar with them, are they good for anything or unusable junk? I will try it myself anyway and if it proves insufficient for my needs I may tear the sucker down. I will check switching frequency too. Wouldn't that necessitate larger capacitors and inductor to meet the same specs? Haha, what a piece of crap.

BTW, what's 2577? I tried LM2577 but that's a boost converter.

Noopy · « **Reply #63 on:** March 16, 2020, 08:48:14 pm »

Quote from: Sredni on March 16, 2020, 06:54:20 pm

Quote from: Noopy on March 06, 2020, 10:47:10 pm
Quote from: Sredni on March 06, 2020, 10:33:26 pm
Kudos for the outstanding work.
Could you do some of the oldies that are best sellers from China, like ~~LM324~~ LM358, TL072 op amps? Possibly comparing them with original parts. I am curious to see the differences.

I would love to see a legendary LM10 - Widlar's masterpiece - but I guess it would be a sacrilege to decap one.
I would use it as desktop wallpaper.

Thanks!

Since my decap-ofen works very well by now I can do a lot of die-pictures.
There are two ways to see what´s inside these ICs:
1. You (or somebody else) send me some parts. => A fast way to get pictures and often there are poeple having a lot of special parts in stock you will never find on ebay. (More coming soon... )
2. I put them on my to-do-list. => Will be done as soon as the mailbag gets empty and I find the right parts for a reasonable price.

Ah, I've finally found the thread, thanks to the person who resuscitated it.
I do not have an LM10 at hand, and if I had one you should pry it from my cold dead hands.
I could send you a chinese LM358 and some very old IBM chips that were part of old mainframes. I should have some boards somewhere in the attic. I need to organize an expedition, first.

But right now I would have some problems in going to the post office.

Are these x€-LM10 on Ebay genuine parts? Well that investment would be ok for me...

If you aren´t allowed to go to the post office you have time for the attic!

If you have some interesting chips it would be a pleasure to take pictures of them.

Quote from: magic on March 16, 2020, 07:22:49 pm

The pics were taken with a compact camera looking through inverted webcam lens...

Nice!

magic · « **Reply #64 on:** March 16, 2020, 09:39:02 pm »

For a few euro they are available from RS, TME, Farnell, Digikey... Not sure how international shipping will work given that whole coronocrap situation, though.

Check if they are available at AliExpress for less than $1. If not, chances are that fakes haven't been made yet

Noopy · « **Reply #65 on:** March 16, 2020, 09:52:53 pm »

Right now I have enough work in my inbox but as soon as it gets empty...

Noopy · « **Reply #66 on:** April 13, 2020, 09:05:39 pm »

I have taken pictures of more RCA CA555:

https://www.richis-lab.de/555_11.htm

They changed the design of the differential amplifier the trigger input is connected to.
There was a normal Darlington configuration. In the newer design the first transistor is connected directly to ground.

In my view that was done to improve the speed of the circuit.

Here you can find the overview over all decapped NE555-variants:

https://www.richis-lab.de/555.htm

Crumble · « **Reply #67 on:** May 17, 2020, 12:28:23 pm »

Hi Noopy, very interesting site you have there! I ran across it when we were discussing a fake LM338K from eBay on a Dutch forum, and it gave us very interesting material to compare the die to. Shortly after I found myself just scrolling through all the articles on your site. Keep it going!

Noopy · « **Reply #68 on:** May 17, 2020, 12:41:53 pm »

Hello Crumble,

I´m very happy to hear you found my website interesting and valuable.

I still have many interesting parts to upload. Just was in the basement and took 8GB new photos.

jh15 · « **Reply #69 on:** May 18, 2020, 04:23:31 pm »

One of the legacy Boeing 747 instruments has a 555 flatpak and a unijunction transistor. I think the uni was in the same instrument. indicator air speed or true airspeed indicator. Long ago. One thing was newer techs would ask: what drugs were those designers on? I would point out among other things, the minimum of electrolytic capacitors.

Noopy · « **Reply #70 on:** May 18, 2020, 07:26:37 pm »

Quote from: jh15 on May 18, 2020, 04:23:31 pm

One of the legacy Boeing 747 instruments has a 555 flatpak and a unijunction transistor. I think the uni was in the same instrument. indicator air speed or true airspeed indicator. Long ago. One thing was newer techs would ask: what drugs were those designers on? I would point out among other things, the minimum of electrolytic capacitors.

You can use the NE555 for everything!

One more TI NE555 with the "B-design":

https://richis-lab.de/555_10.htm

Noopy · « **Reply #71 on:** May 30, 2020, 09:27:24 pm »

Today I have a Silicon General SG555 for you:

https://richis-lab.de/555_35.htm

Noopy · « **Reply #72 on:** July 09, 2020, 08:32:24 pm »

I have uploaded a new HA17555:

https://www.richis-lab.de/555_18.htm

This one has no polyimide coating what gives besser pictures:

Noopy · « **Reply #73 on:** October 26, 2020, 10:06:08 pm »

I have a new B555 for you! It´s a "Bastlertyp", a part that didn´t fulfill all specifications.

Well, nothing special to see...

https://www.richis-lab.de/555_3.htm

Unixon · « **Reply #74 on:** October 27, 2020, 12:04:46 am »

This is all beautiful and sad at the same time.
On one hand it is fascinating to see all the different approaches to silicon design and on the other hand it is unbelievably disappointing to see how many hours of engineering work has been wasted to re-create the same old 555 circuit that was already there. And you all know why - patents and copyright. I would be happy to attribute this to NIH syndrome, but I guess it's not its fault.

Noopy · « **Reply #75 on:** November 21, 2020, 07:23:15 pm »

Finally the soviet NE555, the КР1006ВИ1 (KR1006VI1):

You can find a datasheet written by Alfa but I assume the КР1006ВИ1 was built by more soviet manufacturers.
The design is different to any die I have decapped until now.
In the upper right corner of the labeling there are four diodes leading to a long resistor. The string is connected between supply and ground. It looks like the potential between diodes and resistor is used for a kind of biasing in the trigger differential amplifier. That´s something I haven´t seen in any other NE555.

https://www.richis-lab.de/555_36.htm

Noopy · « **Reply #76 on:** April 13, 2021, 06:58:41 pm »

That´s the oldest NE555 I have.

It seems like a silicone mold. It was very hard to remove.
On surface of the die there is something like a protection layer.

The die is quite similar to the newer Signetics NE555 but...

There is one difference. In the older design Q10/Q11 are acting like a darlington transistor. In the newer designs Q10 is connected to ground. In addition Q11 is a current mirror which is not mentioned in the datasheet.
I assume connecting Q10 to ground makes the trigger circuit switching faster but why that current mirror?

https://www.richis-lab.de/555_6.htm

magic · « **Reply #77 on:** April 14, 2021, 07:04:27 pm »

It's nothing special, just additional bias for Q10, perhaps to speed it up or reduce its output impedance or whatever. And grounding its collector enables the comparator to function all the way down to ground like LM358.

Noopy · « **Reply #78 on:** April 15, 2021, 03:07:39 am »

Quote from: magic on April 14, 2021, 07:04:27 pm

It's nothing special, just additional bias for Q10, perhaps to speed it up or reduce its output impedance or whatever. And grounding its collector enables the comparator to function all the way down to ground like LM358.

I assume the grounded collector gives you some more switching speed too. A little more Vce, a little more Ic. A little more Ic, a little faster switching of Q11. What do you think?

Regarding the current mirror: Isn´t it a drawback that the current mirror eats up half of the current which otherwise could switch the next stage with more current (=more speed)?

magic · « **Reply #79 on:** April 15, 2021, 06:41:31 am »

Not a problem if total Q11+Q12 current is set appropriately. Some LM358 use this exact scheme on their Q10/Q13, while others have dedicated current sources.

It doesn't seem clear if it's exactly 50% of the current being redirected here.

David Hess · « **Reply #80 on:** April 16, 2021, 02:49:44 am »

The current mirror allows Q10 to operate at a higher collector current for better performance.

Quote from: magic on April 15, 2021, 06:41:31 am

Not a problem if total Q11+Q12 current is set appropriately. Some LM358 use this exact scheme on their Q10/Q13, while others have dedicated current sources.

The datasheet schematics often leave those details out.

Quote

It doesn't seem clear if it's exactly 50% of the current being redirected here.

That depends on the emitter ratios which are only rarely documented.

magic · « **Reply #81 on:** April 16, 2021, 06:28:07 am »

Quote from: David Hess on April 16, 2021, 02:49:44 am

That depends on the emitter ratios which are only rarely documented.

Or the collectors

And an example seen in the wild: 75% of input pair current goes to the buffers; this also takes care of the "transconductance reduction" thing.
https://zeptobars.com/en/read/ST-TS321-SOT23-opamp-LM358A-LM324

Noopy · « **Reply #82 on:** April 16, 2021, 03:30:18 pm »

Thanks for your explanations.

I remember the transconductance reduction!

David Hess · « **Reply #83 on:** April 17, 2021, 04:13:27 pm »

I remember Bob Pease's comment about how they documented emitter area:

Maybe I should explain about the "ranchette.” The "ranchette" is a unit of area defined as 1/2 pico-acre. The ranchette is exactly the size of a round emitter 1 milli-inches in radius (well, 0.9983 milli-inch), so it really is handy when dealing with large matched pairs of transistors.

Noopy · « **Reply #84 on:** October 24, 2021, 03:39:30 am »

I have added a Ti NE555 bought 2020.

(Yes, Zeptobars has taken a better picture. I have had some problems with the package.)
We have seen the A and the B design and here we have the D design. There has to be a C design somewhere. Perhaps they didn´t sell the C revision or we still have to find it.
Ti did a complete redesign. They still use the power transistors with the small emitters which aside from Ti just Rohm has used (https://www.richis-lab.de/555_25.htm).

https://www.richis-lab.de/555_10.htm

Back in the days I wasn´t sure about the "other design" I found just in some Ti-NE555. I was speculating that perhaps Ti did a very cheap redesign. I have changed my mind. They are probably counterfeit parts and now can be found here: https://www.richis-lab.de/555_37.htm

Noopy · « **Reply #85 on:** November 13, 2021, 04:27:49 am »

КP1441BИ1 (KR1441VI1), a CMOS-NE555 built by Mikron.

On the left edge of the die there is the big push-pull output. On the right side we see the discharge transistor. In the middle of the die you can spot the three long resistors which are typical for the NE555.

https://richis-lab.de/555_38.htm


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