EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Electronics => Projects, Designs, and Technical Stuff => Topic started by: Vincenzo on May 27, 2021, 04:26:42 am
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I'm wondering if starting a small business for repairing electronics the scientific way (examples are Dave's repair playlist, and other famous engineers video makers like W2AEW) provides an income these days.
I'm sure that there is a large number of non-EE and non-electronics small businesses around my location that depend on equipment that are controlled by a small PCB (everything is, right?) and there are times when the owners get very frustrated having to make the decision of replacing the whole thing because it's vintage and out of warranty or deal with the same assigned contractor company that is either not fast enough or not good enough or overpriced or because there are not enough repair people anymore or the available ones are over priced or illiterate. By "illiterate", I mean those who memorize procedures for very specific items and call themselves fancy things like "maintenance technician" or "electronics specialist". A close friend of mine is one of those and he makes a six digit number of dollars a year just replacing screens in apple products (Louis Rossman kinds of things) and he doesn't even know what a scope is. Once I showed this Apple friend one of Dave Jones's videos, and he hated me (saying that Dave talks too much and he gave him a headache) :-DD
I held jobs before where I test and repair either new PCBs manufactured by an employer or returns. I even once worked for a guy who became a zillionaire just repairing industrial stuff like motor dives and PLCs...etc.
I tried my own thing briefly about a decade ago only by handing out business cards and fliers and caught me a couple of big fish (a business that trades in a category of items that require repair and they had a big building basement full of used things that needed repairs, good money back then). I have a guy a few miles from me who had an engineering degree from an ivy league school (I think it was Cornell) and dropped out of the Masters to ride his Harley across the country with a group of friends and then start an auto-diagnostic service as a mobile guy or (for those he knows well) out of his garage. He is a huge youtube guy and the smartest and most decent car guy I have ever met that I pay him double what he asks because he diagnoses (and repairs) in front of the customer and his goal seems to be saving me a lot of money. He is now doing very well.
I am thinking of making a simple website and some repair videos to advertise the gig.
If anyone here did what I'm trying to do, please, enlighten me with some of your insights and tips/tricks.
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The only way it works is to find a particular, unserved or underserved niche. The things you repair must have value to the person or company paying for the repair. This fact may be obvious to some but it bears repeating. You generally cannot make money repairing consumer devices still being produced with rare exceptions. Louis Rossman is one of those few exceptions.
Industrial repair of obsolete equipment is many times profitable but difficult to expand beyond a small operation due to the lack of skilled individuals that can test/debug/repair without extensive documentation, in most cases, no documentation at all. Unfortunately, this type of business lends itself to people of less than stellar business ethics and they poison the well for the ones trying to conduct an honest and fair business. I speak from personal experience here.
For some successful examples, I know of a group that rewinds ignition coils for a specific make and model antique car. A high school class mate has had a lifetime business repairing high end guitar amps, very well known and respected, does repairs for every big time artist out there. What do they have in common? A very narrow and well defined market being served.
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I did something similar around 50 years ago when life was simpler. I started by repairing marine electronics and it grew into stereo and communications. I sublet a storefront for a few months but was forced to go to a regular retail shop due to too much work and more space needed.
After 13 years I got tired of it and closed shop.
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If you can find the right niche then it's possible to make a few bucks, I repair veterinary medical equipment on the side and it gives me some hobby money, I could probably charge a lot more if I wanted to but for me it's just something fun to do.
Repairing consumer electronics though, no way. The ONLY way you can make anything from that is if people give you broken stuff for free and you can fix it and sell it. Up into the 1980s or so you could make a decent living repairing stuff but consumer electronics are SO cheap these days that there isn't any money in repairing most of it. Exceptions are the stuff that isn't cheap, like the Apple laptops Rossman repairs but he found a niche and is apparently really good at what he does, I doubt there is room for more than a few people in that particular niche and I doubt he's getting rich off it.
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Hello , been EE since 1968,
Until about 1990s, it was OK to plan this.
Nowadays, most electronics is not repairable, as parts and documentation are only avail to authorized service and dealers.
The cheap Chinese junk is not worth the time. EG: How long to open, diagnose, get docs and parts and fix a large screen TV with bad PSU? 2-4 hours? Parts time to recieve...weeks, months? You billable time incl taxes, overhead?
Assume its $150 parts plus 4 hours at $50/hr. = $350.
BUT the TV is worth perhaps 20-50% of new cost and the new ones are always becoming cheaper! The VIZ TVs are down to just $500..750.
Alos repair is an unknow time...minutes, hours ...days... until its done you just cant estimate!
An old friend was a broadcast tech and repaired all kinds of electronics including test equipment and TVs for decades.
Walter wound up volunteering for free at a recycling center and keeping everything he fixed, as no one could pay a decent hourly plus parts.
In USA, the JoBi admin will be heavily taxing and discouraging non-payroll or non-union work.
So, any repair work should be for enjoyment and not for income.
Just the ramblings of an old retired EE!
Bon Chance,
Jon
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First, I just joined this forum a few days ago, so I’m relatively new. But so far, I can not find good enough words to describe the quality of the people I encountered so far (especially those who are more senior than me in electronics, and sometimes in age), and the quality of the format.
Then, I want to apologize for not being clear enough in my initial description, so I’ll add the following:
1. I didn’t think about touching any consumer electronics (but may be exceptionally). The only time I mentioned Louis Rossman (who has some wonderful educational videos) was in reference to my friend who services apple phones and tablets with cracked screens (in addition to a few other common problems like replacing batteries and charging connectors). He, literally, makes more than Tony Fauci making viruses doing his thing. He tried to convince me to do the same thing because it is so profitable, but I think it is boring and it’s more like a trade that I will never like long term. Any other consumer electronics are not worth repairing except some ”niche” categories. Now let’s talk about “niche” that was mentioned in every comment.
2. For those who were suggesting that I “find” a niche market, you are still thinking consumer electronics. Let me explain. There are things that simply cannot be imported from china. For example, you can’t order a pizza from china, you can’t get a doctor appointment from china, you can’t order a house or heavy furniture from china, you can’t get some sensitive things from china (I can go on & on). So, there are so many industries and factories that even now exist all around each one of us but most of the time we don’t think of them or they are hiding in plain sight. I did a lot of research, and would like to clarify to those who are stuck with the thought of tv’s and cassette players like we’re in 1975, that, today, you’re local pizza shop, for example, has a machine that has some kind of range and a belt that is totally electronically controlled. That machine is thousands of dollars, imagine the look on the owners face when the electronic board starts acting up. So, while consumer electronics were getting cheaper and cheaper in the last few decades, more and more commercial and industrial equipment were getting more and more electronics, very expensive (or actually overpriced) electronics. Can I just be a general/scientific component-level repair or diagnostician of any PCB a customer thinks is worth repairing?
3. For those who mentioned “schematics and documents”, I want to use a term that 21st century racists are using these days, but instead of “some-skin-color privilege”, I’ll say “western/American privilege”. The gentleman Who hired me once who does industrial repair was an immigrant from Russia in the 80’s who came to America with $100 in his pocket (for those of us who remember, it was a soviet law), and is now a millionaire who owns property in several states, all by repairing the rare and weird. I remember many times when at the end of the week, he gives me a frustrating unpaid “weekend assignment” where he hands me a (usually analog, single or double layer) PCB to spend my weekend drawing the circuit and functional block diagram for, and sometimes even guessing the missing part in a scientific way that makes sense, and on Monday, he's always unsatisfied with my drawings. Imagine a grumpy old super smart Russian engineer who keeps doing that to you and saying (in heavy soviet accent) "your do not know how draw sir-quitt". If documentation is present just like an old tek scope or a tentek transceiver, then anyone can do it and the competition is a headache. From my personal experience, I can tell, that the PCBs that control commercial and industrial equipment are made in a totally different philosophy than computer motherboards or tv’s. They rarely have software/firmware or specialized parts and are repairable and worth it.
4. Even though, I mentioned three examples of people I know who are doing very well (probably not interested in buying a Trump tower or resort), but I didn’t have in mind getting rich. My idea is to use this to pay some of the bills while developing and making products to sell (which is a lengthy and costly process) and I have a couple in mind.
WattsThat
your first paragraph is important, and totally bears repeating, but again, I don’t care for consumer electronics. And, by the way, there is a person like Rossman in every town who makes a whole lot of money but doesn’t advertise that fact. Some of them are mostly middle men who take your device and send it to a real "Rossman" for repair, and takes a kind of commission for the process (customer unaware). For the second, I explained the “documentation” part from my personal experience in ‘3’ above, but for those who poison the well, I totally agree and that’s why I think it’s an uphill battle to establish one’s name. For the examples, I was told by the guy who proctored my extra ham test not long ago that he has a neighbor who makes tube amps for the “audiophiles” which is a myth and sells them for over a grand a piece, funniest thing is that he uses a modded atx power supply for his “audiophile product”
bob91343
your story was before I was born :-+
You need to write a book or contact pbs to make a historic society documentary or something ;D
I wish I can achieve a fraction of what you have
Do you remember some beginning obstacles that you overcome back then (when life was simple)?
james_s
Thank you, sir, for the comment
Can you remember some tips/tricks from the time you started your repair hobby? Especially, how to get more business.
I totally agree that after the 1980s (probably into the 1990s) consumer electronics (except some niche items) are not worth it. Commercial electronics, on the other hand, there is serious hunger everywhere for good repair people.
I disagree with you, though, about the “room for more people” and strongly disagree about the “getting rich from it” and that’s from personal experience by seeing with my own pair of eyes. That’s not important because I don’t care about consumer laptops and phones anyway.
jonpaul
Loved your ramblings. Please, take a quick look at (1-4) above. For the JoBi thing, it’s fake. Keep your eyes at the AZ canvassing (and now GA, PA, WI, … etc) and see the political turmoil allover the world (if I’m not exaggerating). I love the Chinese people but the b**sh** the a spoiled German m**t**r named Marx theorized once and led to the massacres of tens of millions of human beings throughout the 20th century is probably about to finally end in China. (if they don’t start bombing Australia first, starting with Uni-T and ANENG bombs made especially for Dave’s dwelling) :-DD
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I did some of the types of repairs you seem to be interested in. There is a problem, the factory guy with the broken machine may come to you first because you are local and you may take his controller board home and determine you can't fix it so you put it back in the machine. Mr. factory guy bites the bullet and pays outrageous prices for a certified machine repair guy to come and fix it with a new board costing thousands of dollars. From that day on you will be blamed for everything that goes wrong with the machine in the future. Are you ready to troubleshoot GE Fanuc controllers? Are you ready to figure out why a Toyoda CNC machine won't zero itself? Are you ready to tackle the biggest industrial technicians nightmare called a Mazak with about 200 relays? I won't tell you not to do this, but I would suggest that you better be the best educated and most resourceful technician in a 100 mile radius of where you live!!! I will also pass along this industrial billing joke that is actually partially true, Pressing button $10, Knowing which button to press $1000, Travel expenses including Hotel, Airfare, Rental car and Meals $2550. This was a bit of an exaggeration (although only slightly) of a service call of a York Borg Warner technician sent to fix a problem at a cold storage facility storing millions of dollars of cold commodities. As you may have guessed, nothing was actually broken!!
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james_s
Thank you, sir, for the comment
Can you remember some tips/tricks from the time you started your repair hobby? Especially, how to get more business.
I totally agree that after the 1980s (probably into the 1990s) consumer electronics (except some niche items) are not worth it. Commercial electronics, on the other hand, there is serious hunger everywhere for good repair people.
I disagree with you, though, about the “room for more people” and strongly disagree about the “getting rich from it” and that’s from personal experience by seeing with my own pair of eyes. That’s not important because I don’t care about consumer laptops and phones anyway.
I went to one of the best repair schools around, the school of being a broke teenager with a love of technology. I couldn't afford to buy the stuff I wanted so I had to scrounge broken stuff and learn how to fix it. A friend of mine in highschool worked at a repair shop for a while back when those were a thing and he taught me how to troubleshoot CRT monitors and then within a few months I was fixing the stuff he was stuck on. I just never stopped fixing things, it's something I enjoy doing even if I don't need to, like putting together a jigsaw puzzle. I don't seek out business, it comes to me. With the veterinary equipment I have a reputation as the guy who fixes the stuff that nobody else can or is willing to touch. Usually it's too old, the vendor is not interested in supporting it and in several cases it has been something the companies that service this sort of thing have been unwilling to mess with it and say they can't get the parts or documentation, appointments with patients are scheduled and if the equipment doesn't get fixed in time the appointment will have to be cancelled or rescheduled so I get the call. This isn't my day job, I don't need the business so I don't go looking for it, they come to me and if I have time I take care of it. I have succeeded often where others have failed or declined to try, when that happens it doesn't take long for word to get around, especially an industry like veterinary medicine that is a small world where lots of people know each other.
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I will add some opinions below based on my decades of experience working in industry for the man. That experience has resulted in me coming into contact with many independents.
I'm wondering if starting a small business for repairing electronics the scientific way (examples are Dave's repair playlist, and other famous engineers video makers like W2AEW) provides an income these days.
Earning money and being competitive often means you have to be fast. On the flip side being able to solve a complex and difficult to fix tool can win you a lot of respect and repeat customers, it however is seldom enough to pay the bills. You really need to be able to do both and frankly they sometimes require different personalities.
The next issue is parts! This is an extremely serious issue as it can put production down for ages. So having the skills to find the right parts, if they exist, is a huge issue and being able to retro fit the skill on the flip side that is valued.
I'm sure that there is a large number of non-EE and non-electronics small businesses around my location that depend on equipment that are controlled by a small PCB (everything is, right?) and there are times when the owners get very frustrated having to make the decision of replacing the whole thing because it's vintage and out of warranty or deal with the same assigned contractor company that is either not fast enough or not good enough or overpriced or because there are not enough repair people anymore or the available ones are over priced or illiterate.
Run on sentence here but often your best course of action is to convince a customer to upgrade his equipment. I see this often and frankly repairing stuff can often be the wrong answer is reliability is important.
The next problem that comes up is that often problems with hardware can often be solved with software. That is programming and configuration is a big part of servicing commercial equipment, often this falls on separate groups in a big organization. So you have to be conversant in the realm of programming.
By "illiterate", I mean those who memorize procedures for very specific items and call themselves fancy things like "maintenance technician" or "electronics specialist".
Frankly that is one of the most ignorant statements I've seen on this platform. If you are going to do repairs, repeat business that you can become good at, memorize if you will, is how you make your money. Getting hung up for days on one item is never a good thing and you may not be able to charge the customer enough to cover your costs and delays elsewhere.
A close friend of mine is one of those and he makes a six digit number of dollars a year just replacing screens in apple products (Louis Rossman kinds of things) and he doesn't even know what a scope is. Once I showed this Apple friend one of Dave Jones's videos, and he hated me (saying that Dave talks too much and he gave him a headache) :-DD
You apparently don't realize that a business is about making a living. Fill a niche and you can be very successful as long as that niche exists.
I held jobs before where I test and repair either new PCBs manufactured by an employer or returns. I even once worked for a guy who became a zillionaire just repairing industrial stuff like motor dives and PLCs...etc.
So another example of a guy filling a niche. By the way I hope you realize that there is a hell of a lot more to running a business than just sitting a bench. You have already left me with the impression that you are not focused on the business side of running a business. Marketing and networking are very important in getting such a business off the ground. Leave potential customers with the wrong impression and you will not get any business. I've seen companies sever business ties over some of the most asinine reasons so you don't want to give them a good reason.
I tried my own thing briefly about a decade ago only by handing out business cards and fliers and caught me a couple of big fish (a business that trades in a category of items that require repair and they had a big building basement full of used things that needed repairs, good money back then). I have a guy a few miles from me who had an engineering degree from an ivy league school (I think it was Cornell) and dropped out of the Masters to ride his Harley across the country with a group of friends and then start an auto-diagnostic service as a mobile guy or (for those he knows well) out of his garage. He is a huge youtube guy and the smartest and most decent car guy I have ever met that I pay him double what he asks because he diagnoses (and repairs) in front of the customer and his goal seems to be saving me a lot of money. He is now doing very well.
I am thinking of making a simple website and some repair videos to advertise the gig.
If anyone here did what I'm trying to do, please, enlighten me with some of your insights and tips/tricks.
Everybody is going to be different. I mean there are guys that run businesses based on serving the oil and gas industry with deep hole electronics. That has its own unique needs and technical hurdles. You will need to find what is right for you.
You seem to have some experience here but haven't indicated why past attempts have failed. As such you need to consider the whats and whys. This might help people make good suggestions. If you look at your message, every one that you highlighted was successful due to filling a niche.
One other point, there is a huge difference between offering an engineering service (which might be regulated) and a repair service. I was kinda left with the impression that might be trying to merge the two.
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Earning money and being competitive often means you have to be fast. On the flip side being able to solve a complex and difficult to fix tool can win you a lot of respect and repeat customers, it however is seldom enough to pay the bills. You really need to be able to do both and frankly they sometimes require different personalities.
The next issue is parts! This is an extremely serious issue as it can put production down for ages. So having the skills to find the right parts, if they exist, is a huge issue and being able to retro fit the skill on the flip side that is valued.
Absolutely on both of these points. You have to be fast, and you have to solve the problems that nobody else was able or willing to try solving. Even so, I could not make a living doing repairs, I would burn out real fast if I HAD to do it. For every 10 minute fix that gives me a nice profit, there is some other fix that takes too long to be profitable, or where I know what the problem is but can't find the part I need to fix it. Which leads to that next point.
Parts get discontinued all the time, and there are a lot of specialized parts that are not easy to sub. A while back I fixed an incubator that had a damaged temperature/humidity sensor and it was a discontinued part. There were a few China sellers claiming to have it but it's not uncommon to wait a month for a part to arrive and then find out it's counterfeit or fake. I got lucky with this one when I posted on this forum and somebody pointed out a lower spec compatible part that was easier to find, comparing the specs suggested the lower spec part would work for this application so I bought one. When I installed it I discovered that the original damaged part actually was the lower spec despite the PCB being printed with the higher spec part number. As part of the deal I stripped and repainted the rusted door frame, pointed them to a shop that could laser cut a new polycarbonate door panel to replace the original acrylic one that was broken in several places. It all worked perfectly and the client was happy to pay me a few hundred bucks instead of spending $10k on a new incubator. Most techs would not have bothered restoring the door but I enjoy restoring things in general and they were really happy I went the extra mile.
Again, this would NOT be fun if I HAD to do it all the time to pay the bills. I only enjoy it when it's on my terms.
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Too much stuff isn't repairable by other than the factory, and if it's a bit older, not even them. I opened up a ten year old LCR meter and there was nothing inside but a dozen custom ICs. Totally unserviceable. Anything recent enough to be in use in industry is likely to have that problem. I love to service classic test equipment, but there's no money in it. I serviced guitar amps for a while but people were way more enthusiastic about having them fixed, then paying for the work. And I was really inexpensive because I could diagnose and fix them fast, including the newer switchers. I can fix and align classic stereo receivers and amps, but again, it's way more work than enough people are willing to pay for. If you can't average a rather large rate per hour, at least in the USA, it will be a hobby, not a business. OT- on the comment about non-union and such, that's really not a problem here, nor does it have anything to do with the current administration.
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I did some of the types of repairs you seem to be interested in. There is a problem, the factory guy with the broken machine may come to you first because you are local and you may take his controller board home and determine you can't fix it so you put it back in the machine. Mr. factory guy bites the bullet and pays outrageous prices for a certified machine repair guy to come and fix it with a new board costing thousands of dollars. From that day on you will be blamed for everything that goes wrong with the machine in the future. Are you ready to troubleshoot GE Fanuc controllers? Are you ready to figure out why a Toyoda CNC machine won't zero itself? Are you ready to tackle the biggest industrial technicians nightmare called a Mazak with about 200 relays? I won't tell you not to do this, but I would suggest that you better be the best educated and most resourceful technician in a 100 mile radius of where you live!!! I will also pass along this industrial billing joke that is actually partially true, Pressing button $10, Knowing which button to press $1000, Travel expenses including Hotel, Airfare, Rental car and Meals $2550. This was a bit of an exaggeration (although only slightly) of a service call of a York Borg Warner technician sent to fix a problem at a cold storage facility storing millions of dollars of cold commodities. As you may have guessed, nothing was actually broken!!
Thank you, sir.
That was an awesome input to the subject. Being the "best educated and most resourceful technician in a 100 mile radius" and avoiding the problem you referred to as "future blaming target" is the main source of my hesitation and of why I asked for help here.
The strategy I'm thinking about is refusing to take anything that may become trouble and to avoid large businesses.
BTW, I worked for one of the biggest CNC/robotics maker in the world as a 100% travel engineer where we used to install, diagnose, and maintain multi-million dollar machines in big and small factories that are allover the place but you will never know about until you are sent there (hiding behind a hill with a dead end road, near a town very far from main roads, ...etc). That's the kind of thing I'm thinking of avoiding initially. Your description reminds me how my "expenses" that I get every two weeks were more than the salary :-+ Back then, my boss suggested (and I followed) that I have no residence (mortgage/rent) and just do the weekends either traveling to the next job or in the same hotel that I'm in when older married guys had to go home :-+ I loved it even more when I learned that waiting in an airport terminal pays double hourly wage when it was most of the time on Sundays (and the customer pays :palm:)
I'm thinking of more like a mom-&-pop businesses that can not afford my airport long term parking in addition to my rental car in their town. It's like being the local guy who saves the day in small emergencies.
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james_s
Thank you, sir, for the comment
Can you remember some tips/tricks from the time you started your repair hobby? Especially, how to get more business.
I totally agree that after the 1980s (probably into the 1990s) consumer electronics (except some niche items) are not worth it. Commercial electronics, on the other hand, there is serious hunger everywhere for good repair people.
I disagree with you, though, about the “room for more people” and strongly disagree about the “getting rich from it” and that’s from personal experience by seeing with my own pair of eyes. That’s not important because I don’t care about consumer laptops and phones anyway.
I went to one of the best repair schools around, the school of being a broke teenager with a love of technology. I couldn't afford to buy the stuff I wanted so I had to scrounge broken stuff and learn how to fix it. A friend of mine in highschool worked at a repair shop for a while back when those were a thing and he taught me how to troubleshoot CRT monitors and then within a few months I was fixing the stuff he was stuck on. I just never stopped fixing things, it's something I enjoy doing even if I don't need to, like putting together a jigsaw puzzle. I don't seek out business, it comes to me. With the veterinary equipment I have a reputation as the guy who fixes the stuff that nobody else can or is willing to touch. Usually it's too old, the vendor is not interested in supporting it and in several cases it has been something the companies that service this sort of thing have been unwilling to mess with it and say they can't get the parts or documentation, appointments with patients are scheduled and if the equipment doesn't get fixed in time the appointment will have to be cancelled or rescheduled so I get the call. This isn't my day job, I don't need the business so I don't go looking for it, they come to me and if I have time I take care of it. I have succeeded often where others have failed or declined to try, when that happens it doesn't take long for word to get around, especially an industry like veterinary medicine that is a small world where lots of people know each other.
james_s
Your describing my youth. There is a small difference, though. I was a little more privileged (or probably lucky) that I had a good (system) education and my main weird teenager joy was math and physics, so in addition to the school you described, I went to the common EE school all the way (the last part was probably a total waste of time).
There is a big problem in our country for EE and technical people who are patriotic citizens that started in the sixties with one of the Kennedy's who opened the gates for foreigners to take our jobs. It's a long sad famous corruption story, I gave talks and wrote about in IEEE assemblies and other venues. That's why, instead of having our sons and daughters study engineering to produce new farming, medical, and other real equipment, our kids waste their best years on communist "gender studies" because it leads to the leftover crumbs of a stupid politician while foreign semi-engineers invade our country to make stupid domination tools like facebook that don't feed the hungry.
That's why, I thought about a minimalist life supported by a very selective kind of repair small business, but thought that keeping it general by avoiding a specific niche may increase the chances of getting work.
I may use the not too educated analogy of fishing. There must be a person somewhere no to far from me who is frustrated with a board.
I was once broke in major city in the middle of our country, so I made a list of all the "music shops" in and around that city (12 of them), visited them one by one. Was humiliated a few times, but two of them loved my repair offer and gave me fun work that made me more money that I needed back then (Amps, DJ equipment, music gear, laser light boxes,...etc). Had to leave that city after less than a year for a "real" job on the east coast.
I appreciate your insight and wisdom that you shared here
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I am a little bit in a shock that I finally found the kind of discussion and advice that I was looking for for a long time.
This is great, and I hope that it may help many others who are thinking of doing something similar.
wizard69
Your input is very much on the point and helpful. Thank you, sir.
I like your describing free people by "independents"
"Seldom enough to pay the bills" is a very subjective assessment. For me personally, one repair a week is more than my bills, probably for you or someone else is change money. It's all relative.
About the "parts" issue, from what I saw in my years, most of those who fear down production keep spare boards or keep in mind that rush service will be very much more costly. For the repair tech, the difference is the cost of overnight courier if it takes using one.
"Increasing reliability by upgrading equipment" is a great theoretical principle. I agree, but some (most, these days) businesses are struggling and there is a growing percentage of those who'd rather repair than upgrade.
I agree, that one of my statements looked ignorant and funny, it was probably 3am. I should've put in a more fuzzy way and less black/white. I meant to differentiate between those who lack any flexibility around their fixed niche (wash-rinse-repeat) from those who can tackle anything in the same scientific way. That doesn't mean no repeatability at all. I hope you get what I mean and how my wording was messed up. Apologies
You are very probably correct that I didn't put too much thinking into the business kind of things even though I am fully aware that it is not about sitting at a bench solving Fourier Transform problems ;D and you and others here are helping with that. The business side of things is too complicated and has too many variables that it is best to keep it to the time of "doing" where I can be adaptive to my environment. It's a survival game after all.
I have not indicated why and how "past attempts failed", because they didn't. Most of the time, there upwards changes in one's career and the short attempt I had was between jobs when I was younger. It wasn't serious and the job I landed that had me move more than a thousand miles was a serious upward shift in income. Right now, I believe I know a lot more than I did back then and I'm trying to do it long term, even though I don't expect to make ends meet right away.
The "niche" again! I think I'm about convinced by now that my generalist thinking is wrong. How about starting with all the niches in the world (or a few of them) and see which one works for me. Specifying a niche depends on so many factors that I believe in multi-niche and see where it goes. If a more specific thing comes up, then I may focus more on that thing. What do you think about that?
Again, can't thank you (and the others here) for this super-fruitful list of comments and advice/criticism. Your effort will definitely help many people around the world, not only dummy Vinny :-+. This is amazing
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Earning money and being competitive often means you have to be fast. On the flip side being able to solve a complex and difficult to fix tool can win you a lot of respect and repeat customers, it however is seldom enough to pay the bills. You really need to be able to do both and frankly they sometimes require different personalities.
The next issue is parts! This is an extremely serious issue as it can put production down for ages. So having the skills to find the right parts, if they exist, is a huge issue and being able to retro fit the skill on the flip side that is valued.
Absolutely on both of these points. You have to be fast, and you have to solve the problems that nobody else was able or willing to try solving. Even so, I could not make a living doing repairs, I would burn out real fast if I HAD to do it. For every 10 minute fix that gives me a nice profit, there is some other fix that takes too long to be profitable, or where I know what the problem is but can't find the part I need to fix it. Which leads to that next point.
Parts get discontinued all the time, and there are a lot of specialized parts that are not easy to sub. A while back I fixed an incubator that had a damaged temperature/humidity sensor and it was a discontinued part. There were a few China sellers claiming to have it but it's not uncommon to wait a month for a part to arrive and then find out it's counterfeit or fake. I got lucky with this one when I posted on this forum and somebody pointed out a lower spec compatible part that was easier to find, comparing the specs suggested the lower spec part would work for this application so I bought one. When I installed it I discovered that the original damaged part actually was the lower spec despite the PCB being printed with the higher spec part number. As part of the deal I stripped and repainted the rusted door frame, pointed them to a shop that could laser cut a new polycarbonate door panel to replace the original acrylic one that was broken in several places. It all worked perfectly and the client was happy to pay me a few hundred bucks instead of spending $10k on a new incubator. Most techs would not have bothered restoring the door but I enjoy restoring things in general and they were really happy I went the extra mile.
Again, this would NOT be fun if I HAD to do it all the time to pay the bills. I only enjoy it when it's on my terms.
So, you recommend that it is a must to work for others to have a main income, and "gamble" with a repair gig of your own on the side?
That kind of contradicts with the "niche" successful examples I mentioned and others I know. Are they not enjoying themselves, or are they harder on themselves!
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The business side of running a business is often what gets people down. I think it is safe to say that there are very few people that would prefer to be paying their taxes, talking to their insurance agents or drumming up new business, over simply doing the job. It doesn't matter if you are in the business of cutting down trees or delivering babies, getting the job done is what most prefer to do.
However you really need to be prepared to shift what that job is, as conditions change. This ability to adapt your business as the market changes is key to staying alive. If we go back to the guys that specialize in down hole electronics, they will have to adapt as the amount of new wells being drilled decreases. Now how would they do that, hard to say but if you have skills making electronics work at temperatures far outside of the spec sheets suggestion then it is marketable skill. The trick is figuring out whom to market to.
So you want to start up a repair business, you must ask who do you market to first. How about your secondary targets. You really need a plan here and frankly it might not hurt to become an independent rep for a manufacture that can not afford its own service department (nation wide). Being a rep might not even involve a lot of "repair work" but it can offer an income stream via support.
I am a little bit in a shock that I finally found the kind of discussion and advice that I was looking for for a long time.
This is great, and I hope that it may help many others who are thinking of doing something similar.
wizard69
Your input is very much on the point and helpful. Thank you, sir.
I like your describing free people by "independents"
"Seldom enough to pay the bills" is a very subjective assessment. For me personally, one repair a week is more than my bills, probably for you or someone else is change money. It's all relative.
About the "parts" issue, from what I saw in my years, most of those who fear down production keep spare boards or keep in mind that rush service will be very much more costly. For the repair tech, the difference is the cost of overnight courier if it takes using one.
I can assure you that in many cases people are making a mistake trying to repair old stuff. It amounts to technology changing so drastically that the economics just don't make sense. I've see people try to keep old CNC controllers in operation that could easily be replaced by credit card sized controllers these days. A single board that would be far more reliable than their multi board system.
As for buying parts, that is great if you can find them. However sometimes you have a real hard time recouping the cost of all that research to get the part ordered in the first place. If you can't find the part a retro fit is in order. You really need ot consider the value in all of these activities.
"Increasing reliability by upgrading equipment" is a great theoretical principle. I agree, but some (most, these days) businesses are struggling and there is a growing percentage of those who'd rather repair than upgrade.
At least in my experience the idea that businesses are struggling is baloney. Some owners or managers just have a terrible attitude to any idea that doesn't come from their brain. I've seen people spend thousands of dollars on white boards but turn up their noses at the idea of modernizing a servo drive.
I agree, that one of my statements looked ignorant and funny, it was probably 3am. I should've put in a more fuzzy way and less black/white. I meant to differentiate between those who lack any flexibility around their fixed niche (wash-rinse-repeat) from those who can tackle anything in the same scientific way. That doesn't mean no repeatability at all. I hope you get what I mean and how my wording was messed up. Apologies
You are very probably correct that I didn't put too much thinking into the business kind of things even though I am fully aware that it is not about sitting at a bench solving Fourier Transform problems ;D and you and others here are helping with that. The business side of things is too complicated and has too many variables that it is best to keep it to the time of "doing" where I can be adaptive to my environment. It's a survival game after all.
I have not indicated why and how "past attempts failed", because they didn't. Most of the time, there upwards changes in one's career and the short attempt I had was between jobs when I was younger. It wasn't serious and the job I landed that had me move more than a thousand miles was a serious upward shift in income. Right now, I believe I know a lot more than I did back then and I'm trying to do it long term, even though I don't expect to make ends meet right away.
The "niche" again! I think I'm about convinced by now that my generalist thinking is wrong. How about starting with all the niches in the world (or a few of them) and see which one works for me. Specifying a niche depends on so many factors that I believe in multi-niche and see where it goes. If a more specific thing comes up, then I may focus more on that thing. What do you think about that?
Again, can't thank you (and the others here) for this super-fruitful list of comments and advice/criticism. Your effort will definitely help many people around the world, not only dummy Vinny :-+. This is amazing
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keep the wizardry comin
I considered my options. Making is a good thing, but it has a huge overhead, at least in time.
BTW, I just heard that the Chinese just filled AliExpress with fake SDRPlay dongles (for those who are not into ham radio, SDRPlay is the best bang/buck sdr receiver in the market and is based in the UK) and they have a warning allover their website. Good luck suing them, they may launch a more deadly virus on you. And good luck to all other gadget makers who don't worship the comy gods.
There is something else that I hear a lot about, the so-called "nonprofit" or "non-for-profit" which to my simple mind means either a cult of folks who are into making their lives meaningless (or "unprofitable") or is a big semi-legal scam to fool the IRS.
Now for independently-representing an established producer or reseller, is that easier to get to than being your own boss?
What key words do you use to search for them, or what doors to knock?
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My idea is to use this to pay some of the bills while developing and making products to sell (which is a lengthy and costly process) and I have a couple in mind.
What exactly you want to do: run a "niche" repair business or making your products?
... services apple phones and tablets with cracked screens (in addition to a few other common problems like replacing batteries and charging connectors).
That's no brainer for me, you take least resistance path convert your time into $$$ to fund new development without getting into debt, so less time spent on repair more time for new stuff.
Also, repair same thing again and again is one of most optimised and predictable way, people always break iPhone screens and batteries need to be replaced too.
, but I think it is boring and it’s more like a trade that I will never like long term.
Do you think making a new product 100% fun? ???
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olkipukki
thanks for the words
in addition to the boredom vs having fun, there is how good and experienced I am in each.
In addition, a cracked screen replacement is very competitive because anyone with a microscope and some basic tools and time to watch videos can do it (I don't want to offend my friend by saying that) and his area they charge double and there aren't many competitors (in comparison to mine).
Making a product or tracing a real problem in a PCB is more challenging and has more self respect for my age/career that I spent as an EE doing scientific things.
I am trying to use what I know to do something that a cracked screen "replacer" can not do. Flipping burgers does not require using Bode plots to check frequency response, you see what I mean?
Consumer gadgets (phones/computers/entertainment) are temporary things that are not worth it. Apple, for example is a big scam because the sell a phone that does the same thing that other phones do for many times the price when last year they sold users' info to google for a few billion dollars (they do that every year but fake media don't cover it). So it's a temporary thing. This guy is not going to spend the next 20 years schooling and gaining knowledge/experience in EE if Apple stops making phones. There is an age for everything and mental capability and design for everyone. Trees are not all the same height and shape (like comies love to assume).