Author Topic: FCC/EMC/CE compliance, Product vs Kit, do I actually need it?  (Read 25952 times)

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Offline Bandit-Technical

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Re: FCC/EMC/CE compliance, Product vs Kit, do I actually need it?
« Reply #50 on: September 04, 2015, 05:53:01 pm »
If your example 1 didn't have a case, and you called it a "dev board", you'd be very unlikely to be asked for certification (but no guarantees, there's no such thing in business really...).

OK, if someone does a compromise by removing case, and selling it as an FMC PCB, or PCI-E PC pluggable PCB, and calling it dev-board. Would it help a lot then? Again... I'm looking at similar types of boards, and I do not see ANY certifications AT ALL, are the companies (Avnet express, Digilent, etc) really naive and doing something what can cost them a lot?
« Last Edit: September 04, 2015, 05:57:30 pm by Bandit-Technical »
 

Offline LaserSteve

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Re: FCC/EMC/CE compliance, Product vs Kit, do I actually need it?
« Reply #51 on: September 04, 2015, 06:42:14 pm »
A year or two ago Rasb. Pi tried to call themselves a kit.  One of their distributers sensed an impending regulatory meltdown and forced them to test delaying the release of the device.

I'm in the US...

I had a friend, (RIP) who took an 8,000$ fine and had to do a recall on HV power supply kits for HENE lasers, because he did not file the paperwork with the Center for Devices and Radiologic Health.  They cited him for  improper labeling, failure to submit a required manufacturers report for a non-ionizing radiologic device, and failure to keep sales records.    The cost of the lawyer to negotiate the fine down from 20,000$ , far, far, far  exceeded his profit on selling the kits.

CDRH's attitude, and they found Federal law to back this up, was there is no such thing as a kit exemption.

The FCC also spells that out in low power Part 15 devices, or they used two, as to what is the definition of production, which if I recall is five units or more not for personal use.  Ask Ramsey Electronics to tell you the story of their FCC raid, and how they had to change their product line.

So,  Make a popular, non-compliant product, and in rare cases, you'll need to do a recall, and get a lawyer.

Now here is where it is gets sticky.  If I'm a home owner, my insurance policy may have some fine print about not paying if I have a fire caused by a device that does not meet or was tested for  CSA, UL, CGA,  etc.  Of if my product caused a death, I'd probably have the same issues for a untested product.  I'm sure there are quiet a few home owners or insurance companies who would be looking to sue at that point.

I actually had to do some post fire consulting for a friend who makes commercial power supplies.  He makes dozens of different OEM models every year and cannot afford to certify each revision.   He is self insured, and documents every device he makes in a series of bench tests. He got sued for 2 Million Dollars after a fire, which would have wiped his business off the map, leaving twenty people unemployed.    A post fire investigation firm hired by the Insurance company targeted his product as the probable source of ignition. It was not, but it took flying me and several experts in to prove it.

Because he reads the standards, his product is ground bond tested, properly fused, shielded, has green wire ground etc...  He had a test documentation folder for every unit that shipped. That saved him, and barely. 

Turns out the graduate student using the lab left 5 litres of alcohol where it spilt  onto a halogen lamp next  to the PSU in question.
This burned thru a wood shelf  holding nanoparticles of iron oxide, a fine metal powder, and a nitrocellulose-polymer mix. That spilled onto the 1/16th inch thick steel case of the power supply and burned thru it.

Only after I proved  the existence of the nanoparticles did the investigators let my friend off. All that really saved him was a photo taken at quality control showing the proper bonding, the fuse holder, and the green wire safety ground.  Also, if he had not known a veteran university researcher who could fly down and take a look, he would have lost his company. The university would not let anyone interview the grad student, who developed a mysterious severe pneumonia when the investigators came. Life threatening pneumonia in the Southern US  in the summer is very rare.

That is two of the three cases I personally know of in five years.  Ramsey's case was documented on their web site and was a long time ago.    I know of quite a few small laser shows who violated US rules and found themselves busted.  The FCC cases are listed on a few web sites, with some of the reports being quote humorous.

The third case involved another friend, A used small, surplus,  gyroscope stabilized platform, EBAY, and a pair of DHS agents. That story is not going to be told, but he dodged jail for being stupid about ITAR. 

At some point, your product is no longer a kit.  Most kit vendors can tell you of regulators visiting at some point, possibly including Sparkfun.

So, in rare cases, kits or amateur use products come back to bite you.

Steve





« Last Edit: September 04, 2015, 06:49:19 pm by LaserSteve »
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Offline janekm

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Re: FCC/EMC/CE compliance, Product vs Kit, do I actually need it?
« Reply #52 on: September 04, 2015, 07:52:32 pm »
If your example 1 didn't have a case, and you called it a "dev board", you'd be very unlikely to be asked for certification (but no guarantees, there's no such thing in business really...).

OK, if someone does a compromise by removing case, and selling it as an FMC PCB, or PCI-E PC pluggable PCB, and calling it dev-board. Would it help a lot then? Again... I'm looking at similar types of boards, and I do not see ANY certifications AT ALL, are the companies (Avnet express, Digilent, etc) really naive and doing something what can cost them a lot?

There's been a case where a company tried to do that, and got taken to task for it as it was obvious they were trying to skirt around the rules. If you're TI, and you're making a dev board for one of your chips, it's pretty easy to make the case that you're not intending it as an end-user product. The likes of sparkfun and adafruit are dancing a little closer to the line on some of their products, to be sure (both are now large enough they could absorb the losses from a recall). They are careful about pissing off the FCC with intentional radiators, up to a point (adafruit are using more and more FCC-certified modules, I've noticed).

Even if you get help from a test lab for all your certifications (and for CE mark, there's potentially a lot of different regulations that could be applied), you as the manufacturer are still ultimately responsible. The test lab will make you sign a piece of paper saying that they will give you their professional opinion on the basis of the documentation you supply to them and the tests they perform but they are not taking responsibility for your product (notified body is a slightly different story but also a lot more arduous to go through).

Raspberry Pi learned early on they needed certification (Like @LaserSteve mentioned), really no other way with all the press around the "£25 computer for every school child". Arduino didn't have CE mark (or FCC) for the first version(s?) but eventually decided to get certified (no doubt as their user base expanded more and more into schools and "everyday" users).
 
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Offline Bandit-Technical

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Re: FCC/EMC/CE compliance, Product vs Kit, do I actually need it?
« Reply #53 on: September 04, 2015, 08:06:00 pm »
thanks for another horror story LaserSteve, but I guess it's still better to hear them and be educated rather than be part of such stories.
Also " The university would not let anyone interview the grad student", University does not have legal power to not let student be interviewed by authorities and if he states severe disease it has to be proven by official medical facility, otherwise student is literally screwed, because he did cause fire not by misusing lab equipment (which could be forgiven because he is student) but by violating proper code of ethics in University and code of ethics in lab. In any case, I do not want to discuss this, thanks for story anyway. What I want is, to continue this thread with less mess/random stories/inputs but instead, more structural and conclusive comments.

janekm, your point about not trying to dangerously cutting corners showing it off as dev. kit or Dev board is taken.

That is why, if you let me, I will continue please. Let's get back to the following already slightly modified examples:

Example 1: A PCB in an FMC or another form factor, which has 5V input power jack with  <20A current, which has SMA in/out jacks, high speed Ethernet, SATA jacks, functions as signal meter/generator

Example 2: A PCI-E PCB, with additional 4-pin PC power connector, on the back Ethernet, SATA, SMA in/out sockets, powered by either 5V or 12V PC voltages,  functions as signal meter/generator

* Correct the functions as signal meter/generator to functions as XXX for whatever anyone would want to design it for.

Now, Let's say the target market is US/EU. What certifications are needed for above Examples 1 and 2? FCC? UL? CE? Any of those or anything else? Or all of those, and something else?

again, I was trying now to kinda wrap it up, so that for me, and other users who spend their time reading through thread to have some concluding answers to grey questions.

Also, I do understand that no one should be taking advice written on forum threads as directive, and still consult professional companies dealing with certifications, but at least some ideas/thoughts/comments here could give good guidance and save some time with further investigations.

So.. any ideas for above examples?
« Last Edit: September 04, 2015, 08:21:04 pm by Bandit-Technical »
 

Offline Christe4nM

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Re: FCC/EMC/CE compliance, Product vs Kit, do I actually need it?
« Reply #54 on: September 07, 2015, 10:28:57 pm »
I only know a bit about CE and EMC, so I'll share what I know in the hope it will help you along.

As soon as you sell any product within the EU you need CE. That said CE coveres a set of directives that may or may not apply to your product. In some cases self-certification is allowed, in other cases an independent test must be done. In any case a solid technical conduction file / dossier is required.

If something is a subassembly it does not need CE, but the final product does. Even if all subassemblies have CE, the total product needs it's own test.

I suppose both examples you give are seen as final product. In that case at least the EMC directive applies. Then it depends on the product category which harmonized standards apply and as such which requirements on emissions and immunity.

I do understand that FCC and CISPR (used for CE) emission limits are very similar and FCC accepts compliance to CISPR as FCC compliant. I don't know if that still counts for self-certified products.
 

Offline Bud

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