Author Topic: UPS Supercapacitor Conversion  (Read 8239 times)

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Offline David Hess

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Re: UPS Supercapacitor Conversion
« Reply #75 on: June 28, 2018, 02:05:32 am »
Coincidentally I just had my Powerware 9120 announce battery failure a couple days ago with a "new" set of batteries off of Ebay that are about 2 months old.  I am beginning to not trust UPS batteries bought off of Ebay.
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: UPS Supercapacitor Conversion
« Reply #76 on: June 28, 2018, 10:48:50 am »
2 months?  And to think I was moaning over every 2-3 years. 
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: UPS Supercapacitor Conversion
« Reply #77 on: June 28, 2018, 01:03:03 pm »
2 months?  And to think I was moaning over every 2-3 years.

There is nothing wrong with the UPS and this is the second set of Ebay batteries which had an unusually short operating life.  They should last 5 years at least.
 

Offline madires

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Re: UPS Supercapacitor Conversion
« Reply #78 on: June 28, 2018, 01:25:36 pm »
I'd recommend to get Panasonic SLAs or whatever you prefer from a reputable distributor.
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: UPS Supercapacitor Conversion
« Reply #79 on: June 28, 2018, 03:30:53 pm »
I'd recommend to get Panasonic SLAs or whatever you prefer from a reputable distributor.

That is what I am concluding.  I wish there was some way I could leave negative feedback on Ebay over the situation.

 

Offline zitt

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Re: UPS Supercapacitor Conversion
« Reply #80 on: June 28, 2018, 07:24:21 pm »
There is nothing wrong with the UPS and this is the second set of Ebay batteries which had an unusually short operating life. 

I has what I felt was a low usage model from batteries purchased from BatteriesPlus locally.
It was so bad that I "gave up" having a ups on units.

Last year; I noticed Amazon had some really good deals vs local prices.
Amazon Prime had a set of two batteries delivered for under $70usd if I recall. BP would have wanted twice that.
 

Offline ConKbot

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Re: UPS Supercapacitor Conversion
« Reply #81 on: June 28, 2018, 09:38:12 pm »
2 months?  And to think I was moaning over every 2-3 years.

There is nothing wrong with the UPS and this is the second set of Ebay batteries which had an unusually short operating life.  They should last 5 years at least.
UPS optimized batteries are a special breed, but if you dig into the manufacturers datasheet, the advantage is clear.  Compare the runtime charts of a UPS/extra high rate battery and a normal or deep cycle cell of the same dimensions, and at 10-30 minute discharge range under what a UPS operates, the UPS batteries come out on top by a significant margin. 25%+ more runtime on a 8AH ups battery vs a 9AH normal battery for when I was buying some, IIRC.

And that is before you count in the fact the Ebay battery is probably whatever trash battery comes in the right size case so they can call it compatible.

My replacement set of batteries for my APC1200VA UPS (the old beige tower style one) outlasted the UPS.
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: UPS Supercapacitor Conversion
« Reply #82 on: June 28, 2018, 10:59:51 pm »
After another day of testing, it's back together and on-line. 
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: UPS Supercapacitor Conversion
« Reply #83 on: June 30, 2018, 11:10:55 pm »
Surprised that the UPS does not keep metrics on the number of brownouts, dropouts, etc.  It keeps an error log of other faults.   Shown is my quick and dirty dropout counter using one of those fitness recorders.   

UPS has been running for 2-days now.  Caps are cold.  Looks as boring as it should be.
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline overthrowrobotics

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Re: UPS Supercapacitor Conversion
« Reply #84 on: July 01, 2018, 02:26:30 am »
I have another thread going for a supercap board I'm designing for a boxing robot. For shits and giggles i took a 6 x 350F 2.7V array and connected it to an inverter and plugged a large portable AC to it and it powered it for about 3 to 4 seconds.
 

Offline 3roomlab

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Re: UPS Supercapacitor Conversion
« Reply #85 on: July 01, 2018, 05:55:10 am »
i was reading into the fine print of the EATON XB pdf. in the 500k cycles, if i calculate the cycles, the charge up and discharge @ 15A means that the capacitors are suppose to experience a power dissipation of only 0.06W in order to get to a meaningful lifespan of 500k cycles.

i also saw the same cycle specs in maxwells, these calculate out to about 0.1W.
both seem to imply that temp rise should not be over 1Celcius for max lifespan?
(there is also similar spec in Vishay 85C rated SC, but they limited charging to 3A)
which then seem to also suggest, the large number of base pins is likely for better heat dissipation/cooling?

jus wondering, what ballpark kind of temperature rise is yours in the UPS doing when it is cranking? (if you had a chance to measure?)
« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 06:05:23 am by 3roomlab »
spheres of influence, example linustechtips. can you feel the brainwashing? showing off equipment, etc. were you swayed and baited? with immense popularity (and social "titles"), can you afford to disagree?
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: UPS Supercapacitor Conversion
« Reply #86 on: July 01, 2018, 02:36:00 pm »
I am more concerned with the operating lifetime.  Maxwell had a paper on calculating the life based on the ambient temperature and operating voltage.   It looked like temperature dominates the equation. 

I am not sure how we would know the temperature of a capacitor.  They would need to publish theta of the core to the case, case to the sleeve or something like that.  When I have had to measure transformers for example, I would embed a thermocouple into the windings.   If we could sort it out, we may be able to determine the peak temperature and could get some idea of duty cycle based on how often the power drops.    I suspect that the majority of the heat will come from the UPS and the actual room temperatures.  The capacitors are mounted internal to the UPS.   If you look at that first picture I posted in the last set, you know it's a double conversion type and I run the inverter 24/7.  The UPS is fairly efficient and with the loads I normally run does not put out a lot of heat.  Airflow is also decent.  Inlet air temp to outlet is between 2.1 and 2.5 deg C rise.   

How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: UPS Supercapacitor Conversion
« Reply #87 on: July 22, 2018, 05:04:47 pm »
It's been 25 days and so far, everything works fine.  We had a few dropouts in the power since then.  Once where I intentionally removed the power.  Two were short drops like I normally see.   During this time, we had power lines get damaged and lost power for a few hours where obviously the USP did not save me.  So far, I like the concept.  The caps continue to run cold.
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline JustMeHere

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Re: UPS Supercapacitor Conversion
« Reply #88 on: July 24, 2018, 01:59:27 am »
Peal the sticker off of the battery and order the based on what is printed on the battery. 
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: UPS Supercapacitor Conversion
« Reply #89 on: August 27, 2018, 10:57:50 am »
Two months into this little project.   You can see we lost power again.  This event was fairly long.  I was in the lab when it happened.  Everything stayed up but by the time the power did come back up the UPS decided the battery was too depleted and turned off.  I changed the UPS to economy mode which will switch it back to mains rather than continue to run on the super caps.   When I tested this mode, the system was a bit more tolerant of the line. 

The caps themselves continue to run cold.  It's a boring test.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: UPS Supercapacitor Conversion
« Reply #90 on: September 29, 2018, 04:45:56 pm »
The UPS has been running 24/7 for three months now.  With the double conversion disabled, running in economy mode, I do hear it cycle over from time to time.   Beyond that, there is nothing new to report.  It's still running cool. 


How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: UPS Supercapacitor Conversion
« Reply #91 on: October 20, 2018, 08:18:18 pm »
Had a bit of a storm come through today.  Lost power a couple of times for a few seconds with each dropout.   Had some stuff running at the time.   The supercap mod held up with no trouble.    Almost 4 months of run time on it now.  Just not seeing the downside. 
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline madires

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Re: UPS Supercapacitor Conversion
« Reply #92 on: October 21, 2018, 10:13:04 am »
Usually I get a few power outages of a few minutes each year, mostly caused by thunderstorms in the summer. So I have to stay with the SLAs.
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: UPS Supercapacitor Conversion
« Reply #93 on: October 21, 2018, 02:30:02 pm »
I suspect I jinxed us as another tree came down and took the lines with it.   It seems we loose it for seconds or several hours.  This one may take a few days.   :-DD 
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline madires

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Re: UPS Supercapacitor Conversion
« Reply #94 on: October 21, 2018, 02:58:15 pm »
A generator might be a good idea. ;) This reminds me to perform some preventive maintenance ... ::)
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: UPS Supercapacitor Conversion
« Reply #95 on: October 21, 2018, 03:20:36 pm »
I've had a generator for about 30 years now.   Currently I have two inverter type generators.  Ones a small KW Honda that I really like.  That generator has a lot of hours on it and still starts easy and runs smooth.   Well worth the price.   

About six years ago I picked up a Chinese knock off Honda.   Before even starting it, I tore it all apart and changed a few things.   Did a little break-in with it before putting it under load and have been using full synthetic oil since.   Its about as loud as my little Honda but can handle about 3KW.   I never expected it to survive very long but it's what is running the house now.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline David Hess

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Re: UPS Supercapacitor Conversion
« Reply #96 on: October 24, 2018, 05:39:57 pm »
Where I am, about 30 minutes west of St. Louis, we lose power several times a year and at least twice a year for half a day or more so my 3000 watt inverter style Kipor generator gets a regular workout.  Even with an inverter type of generator, my UPSes are required so if I bought another generator, it would be a non-inverter type but with pressurized lubrication.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 10:57:47 pm by David Hess »
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: UPS Supercapacitor Conversion
« Reply #97 on: October 24, 2018, 10:09:49 pm »
We have had it go down for several days at a time.  This one wasn't too bad.  Just under three days and roughly 5 gallons of gasoline burned.   I don't do much with my hobbies once the power goes down and I just left the modified UPS off the entire time.   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: UPS Supercapacitor Conversion
« Reply #98 on: December 06, 2018, 02:08:12 am »
Coming up on a half year of service.   The more times it saves my ass, the more I like it.   I've gone back to the double conversion and so far it has only dropped out that one time but I'm not sure if it would have stayed up even with it off.   You gain a little but it's not double.   The UPS continues to autotest the capacitors weekly but nothing becomes of it.  The caps continue to run cold.  I'm still not seeing the downside but the test has a long way to go.
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: UPS Supercapacitor Conversion
« Reply #99 on: December 06, 2018, 11:14:02 am »
Oh it'll last for a long time, don't worry.  It just doesn't have much up-time! :)

Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 


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