Author Topic: Vapour phase Soldering  (Read 63734 times)

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Online tautech

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Re: Vapour phase Soldering
« Reply #175 on: March 22, 2015, 07:07:26 am »
Chris, thanks for your input, despite what others might think of that unit it sounds like it did the job fine.
Was the paste in good condition or date expired?

How long did your process take from "go to whoa" ?

PS. Put a flag in your profile so jeremy can know where you are if he has Halon to sell
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Offline jeremy

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Re: Vapour phase Soldering
« Reply #176 on: March 22, 2015, 11:55:15 am »
Hello everyone,

Sorry I've been a bit quiet, it's been a super busy few weeks for me. I'm already planning to sell some to HT230 to @IconicPCB (can you do the @ thing here?), but I still need to give him a call (sorry!)


jeremy: the data sheet that comes with the HT230 in your picture shows a BP range of 222-237 C (10-90%). That seems to be quite close to a previous poster's figures for LS230:

...

Is there an error somewhere?
Edited: I see that the first figures are for the specific batch you received. So it looks like your batch is within the same range as the worst-case spec for LS230, implying it may work perfectly fine in machines designed for LS230.

Yep, the company I bought it from (TMC industries) sells it to people for use in reflow ovens.

Chris: Thanks very much for your input. Could you possibly get us some rough measurements of the inside of the cavity? Maybe even a picture or two :) It's interesting that it has a seal on top, I was planning on doing this too with some RTV silicone gasket and a sheet of borosilicate glass. How is the lifting of the board done? Is it using chains, or is it done with a leadscrew? And finally, what sort of guides are on the board carrier; are they just metal drawer slides or something like that?

Some updates on my end:

-> The metal shop is currently fabricating my stainless container. It's 1.2mm stainless, so I think warping might be a little bit of a problem. But for revision 1, I think it will be fine.
-> I purchased a 2kW induction cooktop, which won't detect my 1/4" stainless ball bearings as a saucepan and so turns itself off. I have 400 of them and they are definitely induction compatible, so I'm trying to decide between modifying the stove, or just getting a thin sheet of steel to activate it. I'll probably go for the sheet.
-> I've got some 0.5mm pitch BGAs (with PCBs) to solder. Should be a good challenge  ::)
 

Offline Chris Jones

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Re: Vapour phase Soldering
« Reply #177 on: March 22, 2015, 03:51:20 pm »
Chris, thanks for your input, despite what others might think of that unit it sounds like it did the job fine.
Was the paste in good condition or date expired?

How long did your process take from "go to whoa" ?

I'll try to post a pdf file with the measured temperature profile on the board, from which I estimate that the whole process might have taken 25 minutes.

The paste has been in the original syringe in my fridge for a year and a half. It is Chipquick brand, SMD291SNL10 96.5/3/0.5. It still seems OK to me.
 

Offline Chris Jones

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Re: Vapour phase Soldering
« Reply #178 on: March 22, 2015, 04:32:19 pm »
Could you possibly get us some rough measurements of the inside of the cavity? Maybe even a picture or two :) It's interesting that it has a seal on top, I was planning on doing this too with some RTV silicone gasket and a sheet of borosilicate glass. How is the lifting of the board done? Is it using chains, or is it done with a leadscrew? And finally, what sort of guides are on the board carrier; are they just metal drawer slides or something like that?

I'll try to get you some more info next week if I have time. The board is on a perforated metal tray that has some stand-offs or feet, and those rest on the bottom of the chamber, above the central fluid reservoir with the cooling pipe in it. The mechanism to raise the board is just some stainless steel wire attached to and wrapped around a shaft with a knob on the end that lets you wind it up by hand. Nothing fancy, and no slides.

I'll attach the Quicky manual in case someone is able to buy one at auction etc. as the manual seems tricky to find. It is a nicely made unit and if I needed such a thing for my business then I think it would be a good purchase. For a hobby budget, probably something DIY would be in order, however it may be worth adding all of the same safety features to prevent creating toxic decomposition products that could otherwise result if it nearly boils dry.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Vapour phase Soldering
« Reply #179 on: March 22, 2015, 10:17:52 pm »
So as I now understand it this Quicky unit just adds distilled water to the Galden to cool it off?
So the students on that youtube experiment weren,t so stupid after all.
I am amazed I would have thought of some more elegant way of coolong like running water through tubes in the fluid as lets say a destillation column in chemistry works. So if the water is added in the cooling stage what hapoens to all the steam and how does the unit prevent the steam for teansporting the Galden vapour along with it?
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: Vapour phase Soldering
« Reply #180 on: March 22, 2015, 10:39:15 pm »
Cooling is by passing the cold water ( relative to the Galden) through the tank in a stainless steel tube, thus condensing the vapour, and the cold water is boiled and vented, the boiling water absorbing the heat in the hot Galden so that at the end of the cooling cycle it will be below its boiling point, and at around 80C or so. The water never contacts the Galden, it is only used in a heat exchanger to cool it.
 

Offline Chris Jones

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Re: Vapour phase Soldering
« Reply #181 on: March 23, 2015, 04:41:58 am »
So as I now understand it this Quicky unit just adds distilled water to the Galden to cool it off?
So the students on that youtube experiment weren,t so stupid after all.
I am amazed I would have thought of some more elegant way of coolong like running water through tubes in the fluid as lets say a destillation column in chemistry works. So if the water is added in the cooling stage what hapoens to all the steam and how does the unit prevent the steam for teansporting the Galden vapour along with it?

As SeanB said, (and you suggested would be a good idea) the water is put inside a stainless steel pipe, and that pipe is in the Galden, but water does not touch the Galden. It doesn't even make loud boiling noises or let visible steam out through the drain pipe when it does the cooling part of the cycle so I wonder if they have some trick to make it gently add the water.

There is also a rectangular tube section that forms a sort of ledge around the walls of the tank about 2/3rd way up, and I think that might be water cooled as well, to reduce vapour reaching the top of the chamber. Perhaps that rectangular tube around the tank is the reservoir for the water, but I don't know yet.
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: Vapour phase Soldering
« Reply #182 on: March 23, 2015, 05:15:36 am »
The ledge is a condensate drip tray, it simply adds a large surface at a point, and yes, there is a cooling water pipe behind it to circulate the cooling water when it is desired to cool the chamber. The vapour cools on it, forms a layer of liquid and then the ledge collects all of it and allows it to trickle down the wall in a corner back to the bulk liquid below.
 

Offline luky315

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Re: Vapour phase Soldering
« Reply #183 on: April 22, 2015, 09:30:22 pm »
I tried it with a simple setup (30€ induction cooker, cooking pot with glass cover, Fluke 179 thermocouple) and it worked fine, without complicated cooling systems. The loss of Galden 230 was negligible.
 

Online tautech

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Re: Vapour phase Soldering
« Reply #184 on: April 23, 2015, 05:04:35 am »
I tried it with a simple setup (30€ induction cooker, cooking pot with glass cover, Fluke 179 thermocouple) and it worked fine, without complicated cooling systems. The loss of Galden 230 was negligible.
Nice job.  :-+

Care to share in more detail?
Temp?
Solder type?
Total time?
M3 capacity of your pot?
What height is your basket?
Galden used (ml)?, Galden lost?
Can you easily observe the reflow happening?

We all hope it is that simple.  :-+
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Offline luky315

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Re: Vapour phase Soldering
« Reply #185 on: April 23, 2015, 05:57:16 am »
I used Galden LS 230 so the temperature is 230°C, enought for the lead free solder paste ("CR 88" from EDSYN Sn96,5 Ag3,5)
The pot is for cooking asparagus, I don't know the volume. It's slim and high and has a metal basket. Only 100ml of Galden was used. I marked the level on the container and noticed no level drop after filling the cooled down Galden back after soldering, but my measuring methode was not exactly scientifically correct so a small loss is expected....
It was surprisingly simple and fast. And no tombstoning although there are a lot of 0402s on the board.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Vapour phase Soldering
« Reply #186 on: April 23, 2015, 07:10:49 am »
Can you set the temp on the cooker or did you just heat till you saw the vapour?
Did you actively cool down the Galden with cold distilled water? Can you describe in more detail the followed steps?
What are your next improvements on the process?
 

Offline luky315

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Re: Vapour phase Soldering
« Reply #187 on: April 23, 2015, 08:36:25 pm »
I turned the cooker on until the Galden boiled, lowered the PCB (on the basket) slowly (~1 minute) while watching the temperature with the thermocouple, waited until the solder changed phase and pulled the basket out. No active cooling, no fan.
No improvements needed.
Maybee I try cooling the upper end of the pot with a towel soaked in cold water.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 08:43:30 pm by luky315 »
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: Vapour phase Soldering
« Reply #188 on: April 27, 2015, 03:07:35 pm »
remind me not to eat asparagus at your house :)

then again, it might be perfectly safe, or is this cooker now used exclusively for electronics?
 

Offline luky315

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Re: Vapour phase Soldering
« Reply #189 on: April 27, 2015, 06:58:03 pm »
Galden *should* be safe (it's inert) and the equipment is used for electronics only. I would however recommend a good ventilation....
 

Online IconicPCB

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Re: Vapour phase Soldering
« Reply #190 on: June 06, 2015, 09:39:03 am »
OK.. some time later ad a few dollars down the track....

Piccies  of the machine vessel and frame coming together...

Various views showing cooling coils and support structure.
 

Online IconicPCB

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Re: Vapour phase Soldering
« Reply #191 on: June 06, 2015, 09:40:53 am »
one more
 

Online IconicPCB

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Re: Vapour phase Soldering
« Reply #192 on: June 06, 2015, 09:49:23 am »
no more
 

Offline LukeW

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Re: Vapour phase Soldering
« Reply #193 on: June 06, 2015, 10:16:08 am »
Can anyone recommend any vendors who will sell small amounts of Galden/Fluorinert type fluids?

I'd like a small amount to try some experiments with, but I don't want to commit to a gallon of the stuff, since it's uber expensive.
 

Online IconicPCB

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Re: Vapour phase Soldering
« Reply #194 on: June 06, 2015, 12:58:59 pm »
This is page 14 of the topic.

Member JEREMY ( mid page 12 ) had some Galden to sell. Get in touch with him he may be able to help.

 EDIT:
It may be an idea to tell us where in the world is Carmen Sandiego so we can provide better advice
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 01:00:31 pm by IconicPCB »
 

Offline AutomationGuy

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Re: Vapour phase Soldering
« Reply #195 on: July 03, 2015, 08:18:08 pm »
Hello,

Did any one buy an Asscon Q300? How much did you pay? Are any used available?

I want to buy one but I am looking for a less expensive occasion.

I asked Asscon and they offered one for 7200€ to me which seems a little expensive to me.

Any ideas where to get one for less money?
 

Offline suckiden

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Re: Vapour phase Soldering
« Reply #196 on: July 19, 2015, 07:42:24 pm »
@ IconicPCB
looks really nice. Any further progress so far?
 

Online IconicPCB

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Re: Vapour phase Soldering
« Reply #197 on: July 20, 2015, 08:20:42 am »
Too early at the moment, need to implement cooling regime. Have purchased a smart relay controller and designed a thermocouple receiver interface card for the smart relay analogue inputs.

Expect to do some of these things during this week.
 

Online mrpackethead

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Re: Vapour phase Soldering
« Reply #198 on: December 04, 2015, 02:52:01 pm »
Im just getting back into this project again as the crazy time of the year has passed.

I got an email from Hawker Richardson, and they are selling 5kg of Galden LS215 for $AUD 1225 on their web store.   Thats a resonably cost effecitve price.

I want 2.5kg, anyone interested in splitting a bottle with me?    ( I figure in my device, i'll probalby only need about 1kg ).. 
On a quest to find increasingly complicated ways to blink things
 

Offline Chris Jones

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Re: Vapour phase Soldering
« Reply #199 on: December 04, 2015, 09:52:22 pm »
Im just getting back into this project again as the crazy time of the year has passed.

I got an email from Hawker Richardson, and they are selling 5kg of Galden LS215 for $AUD 1225 on their web store.   Thats a resonably cost effecitve price.

I want 2.5kg, anyone interested in splitting a bottle with me?    ( I figure in my device, i'll probalby only need about 1kg )..

I'd prefer the 230 degree stuff - used it at work with lead free paste and turned out very well. Due to the finely divided particles that I seem to get everywhere, I'd prefer not to use leaded paste at home if the lead free works well.

Chris
 


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