Author Topic: Ventilator made from car parts  (Read 9860 times)

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Online wraperTopic starter

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Ventilator made from car parts
« on: April 06, 2020, 01:34:48 am »
 
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Offline Simon

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2020, 07:00:32 am »
usual marketing bull from musk. most of the components are not electric car parts at all. The only thing they have to offer is a screen and maybe an ECU that has enough IO to be adapted. If they want to help they should start to build components for existing models.
 

Offline Psi

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2020, 07:06:51 am »
usual marketing bull from musk. most of the components are not electric car parts at all. The only thing they have to offer is a screen and maybe an ECU that has enough IO to be adapted. If they want to help they should start to build components for existing models.

Did you even watch the video?  Many of the parts are from their cars, like the air mixing chamber and many valves.
They even show you them in flowchart form and in their working prototype.

I kinda expected more from a Moderator.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2020, 07:11:05 am by Psi »
Greek letter 'Psi' (not Pounds per Square Inch)
 

Offline uer166

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2020, 07:21:22 am »
Not just valves but all kinds of sensors. A Model 3 for example has airflow, air temperature, gas pressure sensors that surely got adapted here as well. That makes it a closed loop controlled system proper.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2020, 07:29:40 am »
why does an electric car need air mixing? where is the sensor that determines when the patient needs to exhale?

 

Offline Simon

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2020, 07:30:07 am »


I kinda expected more from a Moderator.

What the hell is that supposed to mean?
 

Offline uer166

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2020, 07:35:17 am »
It doesn't.. they're using the (Model 3 I think?) air suspension compressed air storage tank as the "mixer". They're re-purposing car parts, not necessarily using them exactly as they were intended..
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2020, 07:37:08 am »
must be the same canisters they were going to make the sub out of to rescue the boys lost in the caves.
 

Offline uer166

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2020, 07:40:03 am »
 :( You know, knowing how it is working for that company, I guarantee you those people are putting in 24/7 hours of hard effort (even if it is simply a marketing thing in the end). Give those engineers some credit, if anyone can pull this off, it's those guys.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2020, 07:44:26 am »
:( You know, knowing how it is working for that company, I guarantee you those people are putting in 24/7 hours of hard effort (even if it is simply a marketing thing in the end). Give those engineers some credit, if anyone can pull this off, it's those guys.

Then you better show them the video I posted. They are doing the same as every other person trying to capitalize on this, making an air pump that will do more harm than good. They actually did not explain how it works, it's just a lash up of parts that will do more harm than good.

Strangely (not) the government in the Uk have stopped talking about dyson, I guess he has suddenly discovered that a ventilator is more than a pump and that to make one properly would mean that as he does not know what he is doing would mean so much more IP coming from the medical company that he partnered with that they would own more copyright and fame than him.
 

Offline uer166

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2020, 07:51:26 am »
I can get behind some of those criticisms, they are valid. However, a modern EV shares a lot of similar parts with a ventilator, including air purification and flow control, temperature control, pressure sensing, etc etc. And if they partner with someone who knows their shit, maybe something good can happen. I.e. a simple reliable enough ventilator that doesn't tap into real medical part resources to make. They actually put effort into some amount of redundancy and safety (notice an entire VCRight ECU used as a watchdog on whiteboard). This is not an average Arduino/Home Depot build.
 

Offline drussell

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2020, 07:52:55 am »
Then you better show them the video I posted. They are doing the same as every other person trying to capitalize on this, making an air pump that will do more harm than good. They actually did not explain how it works, it's just a lash up of parts that will do more harm than good.

Their crude prototype does have various sensors including flow and pressure sensors on the inhale line, therefore the software should be able to detect the patient trying to take the breath and monitor pressure and flow, and they also talked about maintaining the minimum static pressure on exhale, etc. as covered in the RE video (that you beat me to posting.)

Not that I think they should be creating a new design either, but they did at least realize some of the basics.
 
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Offline Simon

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2020, 07:55:44 am »
It's incredible isn't it. All these years companies that make ventilators have been ruining their profits by using over complex designs and unnecessary parts. What a bunch of useless idiots ventilator makers are over complicating it so much when all you need is a "bunch" of car parts :palm::palm::palm::palm::palm::palm::palm::palm::palm::palm:
 

Offline uer166

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2020, 07:58:00 am »
Dude, you're missing the point. If real Medical ventilator manufacturers can tap into car or rocket parts as alternates, to manufacture their designs, wouldn't you let them?
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2020, 08:35:30 am »
Dude, your missing the point, they can't!
 

Online wraperTopic starter

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2020, 09:37:31 am »
Not that I think they should be creating a new design either, but they did at least realize some of the basics.
They should. In the begging of the video guy says they design it in this way to not tap into limited existing ventilator supply chain. You can only make as many devices as parts you can source.
 

Online wraperTopic starter

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2020, 09:41:54 am »
FYI Simon
https://twitter.com/Medtronic/status/1246449963304914945
https://twitter.com/MedtronicCEO/status/1246452743851716608

Quote
Omar Ishrak
@MedtronicCEO
SpaceX engineers getting it done for #COVID19 patients.
@SpaceX  to supply important valve that will help us scale production sooner. Thanks to
@ElonMusk  for partnering. #MDTisMobilizing
« Last Edit: April 06, 2020, 09:44:42 am by wraper »
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2020, 09:46:23 am »
Interesting. This one looks actually looks credible and viable. Key point being constrained tidal volume and assistive and forced ventilation.

Definitely better than "arduino and some bits of perspex" which is what the universities seem to be capable of producing and "looks pretty but lacking in real details" which is what Dyson appear to be producing but is entirely irrelevant to the job.

Let's hope Musk doesn't call someone at Medtronic a pedophile.  :-DD
« Last Edit: April 06, 2020, 09:48:25 am by bd139 »
 

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2020, 10:08:23 am »
Let's hope Musk doesn't call someone at Medtronic a pedophile.  :-DD

Depends on if they tell him to stick his car parts up his arse. Essentially what are the limitations on current supply, that is the first problem. I am sure that anyone that makes parts for ventilators does not just make parts for ventilators, so they have spare capacity and they will be compelled morally and by their government to only build those parts.

I made an order with samtec for some headers. I was warned that the usual delivery times will not apply as they are only running at 60% capacity due to the pandemic and most of their manufacture is at the behest of the government for medical equipment. For other parts increasing production at other companies with similar equipment by maybe duplicating tooling is still faster than rocket man pulling a publicity stunt.

How is Dyson getting on with his ventilators by the way? it's gone quiet....
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2020, 10:19:58 am »
Dyson were disqualified from the purchasing (as were G-tech) because the government were focusing on stripping existing designs down to minimal hardware and exploring industrial engineering companies rather than consumer shite pushers. 
 

Offline Kleinstein

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2020, 10:58:38 am »
Compared to some of the crude air pumps with a fixed rate / volume the Tesla part may actually work. At least it looks like the got the basics right.

They don't show the details on how the control is handled. Chances are there is still some of the software missing, but as far as I can tell the HW side may actually work and have the capability. With the valves there may be the problem, that the same or similar parts may be used in the regular designs too - so they may even compete for the same parts.

Overall the design does not look that much different from the proper medical ones in use. The difference and higher price comes from certification, high reliability / testing, insurance and in normal times relatively low volumes. Normally there is quite a bit of extra paperwork going with such a critical medical device.  It starts with the disclaimers in essentially all normal electronics part that do no allow the use in life support devices.

 

Offline madires

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2020, 11:00:27 am »
Unfortunately all those quickly hacked together ventilators will become e-junk after we'll have survived the corona virus, because none of them will get a standard approval. All they get is a temporary emergency permission.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2020, 11:06:50 am »
Dyson were disqualified from the purchasing (as were G-tech) because the government were focusing on stripping existing designs down to minimal hardware and exploring industrial engineering companies rather than consumer shite pushers. 

Oh, funny how that was not put in the news. His name was all over the news and by the sounds of it fake news at that as he was not going to do anything until he passed the criteria but they talked as though it was a done deal. Then a fuss was made about Gtech and Dysons name was never mentioned again so mainstream joe public probably still think Dyson us making ventilators.
 

Offline trophosphere

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2020, 12:51:45 pm »
I don't know if it's still true but didn't repair shops have problems sourcing spare/replacement parts for Tesla cars? I had a friend that bought a Tesla but he got into an accident and couldn't have his Tesla repaired for a couple months due to lack of availability for a couple of parts. If that is still the case then using their designed ventilator will likely still not address the supply problem.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2020, 12:57:59 pm »
Dyson were disqualified from the purchasing (as were G-tech) because the government were focusing on stripping existing designs down to minimal hardware and exploring industrial engineering companies rather than consumer shite pushers. 

Oh, funny how that was not put in the news. His name was all over the news and by the sounds of it fake news at that as he was not going to do anything until he passed the criteria but they talked as though it was a done deal. Then a fuss was made about Gtech and Dysons name was never mentioned again so mainstream joe public probably still think Dyson us making ventilators.

Here's a reference to G-tech: https://www.malverngazette.co.uk/news/18345951.worcester-firm-gtech-coronavirus-ventilator-not-used-not-meet-government-standards-city-mp-robin-walker-says/

I can't find the reference to Dyson. Existing designs are preferred here for obvious reasons: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/mar/23/carmakers-make-nhs-ventilators-coronavirus-uk-government-nissan-rolls-royce

AFAIK they said they were going to order stuff from Dyson but it went quiet suddenly and then "existing designs" started appearing suggesting that the existing manufacturers creating something from scratch was more of a risk than a benefit (I agree with this). To note the original Dyson proposal came from their own press releases rather than the government.

Tesla's design is based on an existing design repurposed with off the shelf parts that can be mass produced already so that's sort of in the middle.

Edit: I understand the Smiths paraPac is what they used to stuff in ambulances. Not sure what's in there now. That's probably got the most amount of users out there who know how to fix it and work with it and can pass knowledge on.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2020, 01:05:08 pm by bd139 »
 


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