Author Topic: Ventilator made from car parts  (Read 9856 times)

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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2020, 01:20:45 pm »
Unfortunately all those quickly hacked together ventilators will become e-junk after we'll have survived the corona virus, because none of them will get a standard approval. All they get is a temporary emergency permission.

I'm waiting to see if they'll even get that.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2020, 01:30:51 pm »
Indeed. I doubt they will get approval any time soon because quite frankly it's a shitty idea which will lead to even shittier headlines.

"Dyson blows out my nan's lungs"

Also my why the fuck do two vacuum cleaner companies jump up to the cause suddenly. That's like hiring the bin guys to sort your IT problem out.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2020, 01:43:48 pm »
Dyson got themselves an article all to themselves on the BBC website. But the BBC are useless. They take very little facts to make something up and they keep editing the damn articles.
 
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2020, 01:51:55 pm »
Also my why the fuck do two vacuum cleaner companies jump up to the cause suddenly. That's like hiring the bin guys to sort your IT problem out.

Ahah. Well, you could argue that companies with good knowledge and technology for pushing air in and out are better positioned to do this than others.
Unfortunately, the air pushing part is only a very small part (however weird that may sound to the layman) of the design of a medical ventilator.

And that's the same point with many, if not most of current ventilator projects that are blooming. People are focusing (so to speak...) on just the tip of the iceberg.

Meanwhile, that's some "free" advertising for companies that are currently (like many others) experiencing a drastic slowdown in sales.
The car industry in particular has seen something like (from what I've seen recently) -70% decrease in sales in the last month in countries that have implemented confinement.
 

Offline drussell

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2020, 02:53:41 pm »
Not that I think they should be creating a new design either, but they did at least realize some of the basics.
They should. In the begging of the video guy says they design it in this way to not tap into limited existing ventilator supply chain. You can only make as many devices as parts you can source.

Indeed.  I think it would be more helpful if they were able to manufacture parts required for existing designs to be able to ramp up production more quickly.
 

Offline MK14

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2020, 03:00:23 pm »
Dyson were disqualified from the purchasing (as were G-tech) because the government were focusing on stripping existing designs down to minimal hardware and exploring industrial engineering companies rather than consumer shite pushers.

Have you got a source for that bit of information.
Because my search, seems to indicate they are still going ahead with it.

E.g. From around 1 week ago (JCB, are making parts for the Dyson ventilator).

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11291396/coronavirus-jcb-factory-ventilators-nhs/

Google can't seem find anything saying they (government, or anyone) have stopped (Dyson).
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2020, 03:16:28 pm »
Not that I think they should be creating a new design either, but they did at least realize some of the basics.
They should. In the begging of the video guy says they design it in this way to not tap into limited existing ventilator supply chain. You can only make as many devices as parts you can source.

Indeed.  I think it would be more helpful if they were able to manufacture parts required for existing designs to be able to ramp up production more quickly.

Agreed.
Focus on helping existing production units ramp up production, not on reinventing the wheel.
 

Online wraperTopic starter

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2020, 03:21:37 pm »
Agreed.
Focus on helping existing production units ramp up production, not on reinventing the wheel.
Spacex produces valve for Medtronic. Also you cannot simply start making components sourced from various manufacturers. You'd need to design an alternative component and build production line first. (Talking about reinventing the wheel).
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2020, 03:26:06 pm »
Dyson were disqualified from the purchasing (as were G-tech) because the government were focusing on stripping existing designs down to minimal hardware and exploring industrial engineering companies rather than consumer shite pushers.

Have you got a source for that bit of information.
Because my search, seems to indicate they are still going ahead with it.

E.g. From around 1 week ago (JCB, are making parts for the Dyson ventilator).

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11291396/coronavirus-jcb-factory-ventilators-nhs/

Google can't seem find anything saying they (government, or anyone) have stopped (Dyson).

I had a link but I can't find the damn thing now. It was reputable as well.
 

Offline MK14

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2020, 03:47:33 pm »
I had a link but I can't find the damn thing now. It was reputable as well.

The following article, seems to say (from around 1.5 weeks ago), that Dyson and the Goverment, are giving differing stories about the 10,000 ordered ventilators.

Quote
Downing Street denies ordering 10,000 ventilators off Dyson

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/dyson-to-produce-ventilators-for-nhs-during-coronavirus-1-6579684
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2020, 03:57:53 pm »
Hmm interesting. Time will tell what the deal is. I'm sure it'll turn into some scandal at some point....
 
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Offline Simon

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2020, 04:40:34 pm »
The deal is the usual, james dyson is a lying bastard, remember the 0 carbon emissions motors in his vacuum cleaner?
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2020, 04:43:45 pm »
Oh and the British made Singapore outsourcing brexit supporting cuntery as well...
 

Offline drussell

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2020, 02:25:54 am »
Agreed.
Focus on helping existing production units ramp up production, not on reinventing the wheel.
Spacex produces valve for Medtronic. Also you cannot simply start making components sourced from various manufacturers. You'd need to design an alternative component and build production line first. (Talking about reinventing the wheel).

There are many components that can be produced reliably on "prototype-style" equipment, like CNC machining individual parts on generic machines instead of on a regular "production line."  If some generic equipment that is sitting idle can be put to use producing parts and pieces, fab some PCBs and assemble them with components, etc. on some additional production line, even if it is small-quantity production, if some auxiliary production lines here and there can produce high quality, repeatable parts, that would probably actually be the most helpful in the end.
 

Online Circlotron

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2020, 02:52:19 am »
Unfortunately all those quickly hacked together ventilators will become e-junk after we'll have survived the corona virus, because none of them will get a standard approval. All they get is a temporary emergency permission.
That's not good of course, but at least better than many people becoming landfill instead.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2020, 05:47:26 am »
That's not good of course, but at least better than many people becoming landfill instead.

Donate them to a developing nation. There are many parts of the world that are not encumbered by the regulations in more "civilized" regions where they are currently getting by with much less.

I don't really understand the attitudes some have about this stuff, companies are stepping up to the plate and taking action that could save thousands of lives and people crap on the whole idea with what-ifs. When there's an adequate supply of certified machines to meet the demand then we can stop building stopgap hardware. Until then you do what you gotta do. Then moaning about a company getting some publicity? So what? If they accomplish anything at all they deserve some publicity, I'd ask of the armchair experts complaining what are *you* doing to increase the supply of needed ventilators?
 
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Offline Simon

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2020, 08:07:28 am »
Agreed.
Focus on helping existing production units ramp up production, not on reinventing the wheel.
Spacex produces valve for Medtronic. Also you cannot simply start making components sourced from various manufacturers. You'd need to design an alternative component and build production line first. (Talking about reinventing the wheel).

There are many components that can be produced reliably on "prototype-style" equipment, like CNC machining individual parts on generic machines instead of on a regular "production line."  If some generic equipment that is sitting idle can be put to use producing parts and pieces, fab some PCBs and assemble them with components, etc. on some additional production line, even if it is small-quantity production, if some auxiliary production lines here and there can produce high quality, repeatable parts, that would probably actually be the most helpful in the end.

CNC's are not prototype equipment. They are used for production. Their advantage in prototyping is that they do not need part specific tools making but for some items in large volumes there are faster cheaper ways of making them like casting or a combination of casting and finishing on a CNC. My employer has the equivalent of die cast boxes CNC machined all the time as we can achieve shapes and features you can't get on a commercial box and it is still competitive.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2020, 08:09:19 am »
Indeed. Not only that, CNC machines are used to finish production cast parts for example as well like engine blocks and to mill new parts like crankshafts.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2020, 08:11:30 am »
Yea, anything needing good torque properties will be lathed from extruded bar, a cast shaft would be more likely to shatter.
 

Offline Psi

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2020, 12:01:51 pm »
Unfortunately all those quickly hacked together ventilators will become e-junk after we'll have survived the corona virus, because none of them will get a standard approval. All they get is a temporary emergency permission.

I'm waiting to see if they'll even get that.

Even if the DIY stuff never gets temporary approval. The doctors and healthcare staff wont care, they will still use it.
All those DIY home laser cut and 3D printed face shields people are making aren't tested/approved but they're still being used in hospitals all over the place. With medical staff very happy to have something vs nothing.

If no medical ventilators are available but 10 people need one to make it through the night the medical staff will use whatever they can get ahold of. Even if it's not approved or not even medical equipment at all.

The typical rules, where hospitals won't try anything risky for fear of getting sued, are ignored in situations like this.
There's only so many times you can turn up to work and see people die because you don't have the gear to save them before you stop caring about company policy or rules in general.

If anyone from a hospitals legal team turns up in the ER saying.."You can't use that, it's not approved" they're likely to get punched in the face at best, or end up getting drugged, tied up and forgotten about in a utility room at worst.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 12:19:57 pm by Psi »
Greek letter 'Psi' (not Pounds per Square Inch)
 
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2020, 12:28:09 pm »
Unfortunately all those quickly hacked together ventilators will become e-junk after we'll have survived the corona virus, because none of them will get a standard approval. All they get is a temporary emergency permission.

I'm waiting to see if they'll even get that.

Even if the DIY stuff never gets temporary approval. The doctors and healthcare staff wont care, they will still use it.
All those DIY home laser cut and 3D printed face shields people are making aren't tested/approved but they're still being used in hospitals all over the place. With medical staff very happy to have something vs nothing.

If no medical ventilators are available but 10 people need one to make it through the night the medical staff will use whatever they can get ahold of. Even if it's not approved or not even medical equipment at all.

The typical rules, where hospitals won't try anything risky for fear of getting sued, are ignored in situations like this.
There's only so many times you can turn up to work and see people die because you don't have the gear to save them before you stop caring about company policy or rules in general.

If anyone from a hospitals legal team turns up in the ER saying.."You can't use that, it's not approved" they're likely to get punched in the face at best, or end up getting drugged, tied up and forgotten about in a utility room at worst.

It's not legal problem. Those things are medical ventilators in same manner that bicycle tire pump is a medical ventilator.

Watch the video.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/ventilator-made-from-car-parts/msg3001626/#msg3001626

And then, probably, you will understand why a real MD will not connect anybody to such contraption.... It is not a real ventilator, it's a Rube Goldberg contraption made by people who don't understand real problem and is equivalent to elementary school science project.
"Just hard work is not enough - it must be applied sensibly."
Dr. Richard W. Hamming
 

Offline max_torque

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2020, 12:36:03 pm »
The fundamental difference here, in the Tesla Ventilator approach is that they are starting with an actual, proven on-the-self-available-in-the-tens-of-thousands supply chain that can "simply" be redirected from being built into 1000 cars a day (tesla produced 367,000 cars in 2019, that's 1000 for every day of the year! park 1000's cars in a line and you'll understand how impressive that actually is...) to being built into 1000 ventilators a day!   

Yes, like any other knocked together and un-certified ventilator project, that may of may not be useful, but at least it is actually VIABLE unlike most/all the other lets-design-a-new-ventilator projects    :-+
 
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Offline Psi

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2020, 12:41:39 pm »
It's not legal problem. Those things are medical ventilators in same manner that bicycle tire pump is a medical ventilator.
..
And then, probably, you will understand why a real MD will not connect anybody to such contraption.... It is not a real ventilator, it's a Rube Goldberg contraption made by people who don't understand real problem and is equivalent to elementary school science project.

That doesn't matter.

I will restate
There's only so many times you can turn up to work and see people die because you don't have the gear to save them before you stop caring about company policy or rules in general.
If it moves air in and out the medical staff will connect it to a person because 'no air moving in and out' is not a valid option!
eg You can worry about weather or not the lubrication in the pump was medical grade later,
« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 12:44:53 pm by Psi »
Greek letter 'Psi' (not Pounds per Square Inch)
 
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2020, 12:45:48 pm »
The fundamental difference here, in the Tesla Ventilator approach is that they are starting with an actual, proven on-the-self-available-in-the-tens-of-thousands supply chain that can "simply" be redirected from being built into 1000 cars a day (tesla produced 367,000 cars in 2019, that's 1000 for every day of the year! park 1000's cars in a line and you'll understand how impressive that actually is...) to being built into 1000 ventilators a day!   

Yes, like any other knocked together and un-certified ventilator project, that may of may not be useful, but at least it is actually VIABLE unlike most/all the other lets-design-a-new-ventilator projects    :-+
I agree with you. They are QUALIFIED to make mechanical pump part. And that part works. It's the other stuff as air humidifier, and breath control and monitoring electronics and systems integration that makes the medical ventilator. And without it it is dangerous to patients..
"Just hard work is not enough - it must be applied sensibly."
Dr. Richard W. Hamming
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #49 on: April 07, 2020, 12:46:08 pm »
@Psi...

Not really.  That line of thought only works until:

1. You inflate someone like a cane toad, followed by a loud pop and bits of lung everywhere by accident because the equipment wasn't qualified and tested properly.
2. You turn a viable outcome into a poor outcome or life long disability because someone gets a lung full of machine oil.
3. It fails after 3 hours and kills the patient silently.
4. You get an American lawyer anywhere in the process.

Rules and standards are there for a reason. There's no space for iteration in these things.

I've worked on "safety critical systems" albeit ones that are supposed to kill only the people you point them at (I regret this if I'm honest) and the standards there are as high as the medical side of things. There are whole teams of people who's jobs are to come up with what ifs.
 


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