Author Topic: Ventilator made from car parts  (Read 9847 times)

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Offline jeffheath

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #75 on: April 10, 2020, 02:53:16 pm »
This forum is in just as much of a panic as anyone else. There just needs to be some kind of standardized test that can evaluate these ventilators, to see how they perform. It doesn't have to be approved testing, and I wouldn't think it would need to take months either. The companies that make ventilators must have some form of testing their ventilators, so maybe they can streamline their testing process (as well as share their equipment and procedures) so we can have real data on how each new ventilator performs.
 

Offline madires

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #76 on: April 10, 2020, 03:36:24 pm »
It can't be stressed enough, the real challenge is the firmware, i.e. how to control the ventilator to support the patient breathing. When it's not done right the ventilator will damage the patient's lung. And the doctor must be able to monitor breathing and to adjust parameters if necessary. That takes a lot of effort and time for research, testing and optimization, unless you've already designed ventilators and can take shortcuts for a new design. No manufacturer of approved ventilators will give away their IP to anyone hacking together ventilators. The only reasonable way to ramp up production numbers is licensing the production to other companies to manufacture exact copies of the original design. All the hype about taking parts from a car's AC or 3D-printing is simply PR nonsense.
 
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #77 on: April 10, 2020, 05:42:22 pm »
The only reasonable way to ramp up production numbers is licensing the production to other companies to manufacture exact copies of the original design. All the hype about taking parts from a car's AC or 3D-printing is simply PR nonsense.

Yes, yes and yes.
 

Offline jeffheath

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #78 on: April 12, 2020, 04:42:49 am »
It can't be stressed enough, the real challenge is the firmware, i.e. how to control the ventilator to support the patient breathing. When it's not done right the ventilator will damage the patient's lung. And the doctor must be able to monitor breathing and to adjust parameters if necessary. That takes a lot of effort and time for research, testing and optimization, unless you've already designed ventilators and can take shortcuts for a new design. No manufacturer of approved ventilators will give away their IP to anyone hacking together ventilators. The only reasonable way to ramp up production numbers is licensing the production to other companies to manufacture exact copies of the original design. All the hype about taking parts from a car's AC or 3D-printing is simply PR nonsense.
So basically any unapproved ventilator probably won't be optimized enough to operate at the precise level of control needed to perform well, and making a machine with the proper sensors/equipment to quickly "test" a ventilator would be harder to do than simply licensing the ventilator design?
 

Offline madires

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #79 on: April 12, 2020, 10:51:12 am »
I think so. The ventilator has to adjust itself to the patient's breathing. Simply forcing air down the throat will harm the patient. A quick ventilator test won't work because you would have to check several profiles (taken from patients) which also change during the day based on activity (awake, sleeping, pain, stress, ...). But a test machine could be used for QC in the production.
 

Offline donotdespisethesnake

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #80 on: April 12, 2020, 03:50:29 pm »
The only reasonable way to ramp up production numbers is licensing the production to other companies to manufacture exact copies of the original design.

^^ this !

I don't know about medical, but in other industries approval is given to the manufacturing process not just the design. So for example if the assembly calls for bolts correctly torqued, are the staff trained to do that? Is there a record of that? Are the tools calibrated regularly? Is there a record of that?

Really this is a case of Dunning-Kruger on the general scale. Even people involved with managing a project, seem to think it is easier than it is and express the opinion "anyone could do this, right?" So it doesn't surprise me at all that a company like Dyson would say "of course our brilliant engineers can make anything* in a week!" and people in government would believe that.
Bob
"All you said is just a bunch of opinions."
 

Offline ciccio

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #81 on: April 12, 2020, 03:55:58 pm »
The only reasonable way to ramp up production numbers is licensing the production to other companies to manufacture exact copies of the original design. All the hype about taking parts from a car's AC or 3D-printing is simply PR nonsense.

Yes, yes and yes.

I strongly agree whith both.

The only company in Italy that builds ventilator was called by the Government:
- They blocked a delivery to a foreign customer to reserve all available units for Italy
- The got help from the Army so workforce could be increased
- They called for help to all their subcontractors (even in the current lockdown situation, which makes very difficult for small subcontractros to even open the doors)
- They got help from big Companies like Ferrari, Fiat and Magneti Marelli for sourcing parts on international markets and building non-critical parts .
But final production and tests are done by the original manufacturer, in their approved plant.
It seems to work.

Here is a link (in Italian, but Google can help)
https://forbes.it/2020/03/24/coronavirus-respiratori-ferrari-fca-e-siare-produzione-ventilatori-polmonari/
Best regards
« Last Edit: April 12, 2020, 04:01:51 pm by ciccio »
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Online wraperTopic starter

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #82 on: April 12, 2020, 04:36:46 pm »
It seems to work.
Google translated:
Quote
The production of Siare has therefore gone from 5 to 20 daily ventilators, with the company that has signed the commitment to make 2,000 lung fans by 31 July.
Sounds like a joke in current situation.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2020, 04:38:21 pm by wraper »
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #83 on: April 12, 2020, 05:35:22 pm »
The only reasonable way to ramp up production numbers is licensing the production to other companies to manufacture exact copies of the original design.

I don't know about medical, but in other industries approval is given to the manufacturing process not just the design. So for example if the assembly calls for bolts correctly torqued, are the staff trained to do that? Is there a record of that? Are the tools calibrated regularly? Is there a record of that?

Yes, this is exactly the same for medical devices. But it's not just about the manufacturing process either. The whole company, outside of any given product, is also certified in order to be able to get any product further approved. It includes almost any part of the company, including sales, HR, etc.

What it means is that even if a company were following every step of an approved manufacturing process to the letter, it would still need to get an appropriate certification such as ISO13485.

Does that make things heavy? Sure does.
Should some shortcuts be taken in exceptional circumstances? Certainly as long as it doesn't compromise safety. Which is not an easy matter.
But should we do just anything just because we are in a hurry? I don't think so. It's usually the worst approach possible.

 

Offline ciccio

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #84 on: April 12, 2020, 05:46:48 pm »
It seems to work.
Google translated:
Quote
The production of Siare has therefore gone from 5 to 20 daily ventilators, with the company that has signed the commitment to make 2,000 lung fans by 31 July.
Sounds like a joke in current situation.
The number of  intensive care units in Italy was 5324 before COVID emergency.
The Government plan to increase it by at least 2000 units in the shorter possible time.
New hospitals have been built or converted, but there is a great shortage of doctors, nurses and other medical professonal.
Now, luckily, the numbers are going down and hospitals have free intensive care units.
2000 units  will maybe suffice (but I read that some units are being imported or donated by other countries).

 

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Online wraperTopic starter

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #85 on: April 12, 2020, 05:49:01 pm »
The number of  intensive care units in Italy was 5324 before COVID emergency.
The Government plan to increase it by at least 2000 units in the shorter possible time.
New hospitals have been built or converted, but there is a great shortage of doctors, nurses and other medical professonal.
Now, luckily, the numbers are going down and hospitals have free intensive care units.
2000 units  will maybe suffice (but I read that some units are being imported or donated by other countries).
40% increase over several months is a complete fail in regards of what's actually needed in current situation. Which means this approach does not work efficiently.
 

Online Bud

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #86 on: April 13, 2020, 03:12:14 am »
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Offline ciccio

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #87 on: April 13, 2020, 07:05:36 am »
9
40% increase over several months is a complete fail in regards of what's actually needed in current situation. Which means this approach does not work efficiently.
I don't  know if another approach could be more efficient.
How could you build more units from a single certified factory,  respecting  all the requirement imposed by the certification process?
Maybe this should have been done many years ago, when the WHO advised every country to prepare for a pandemic but most countries did not.
Build a lot of ventilators, a lot of intensive care units, increase spending on medical staff, pay them more so they will not study here (in public universities, funded with taxpayer's money) than leave the country for better paying places.
In Milan they were capable of buliding a new hospital in less than two weeks, but it is not fully used.
There are not enought doctors and nurses, even with the help of professionals that came from Albania , Russia and other eastern countries.
Now the situation (at least here in Italy) seems to be better.
When this will end, a lot of things must be changed, and not only in Italy...
« Last Edit: April 13, 2020, 07:10:52 am by ciccio »
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Online Psi

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #89 on: April 15, 2020, 07:22:20 am »
Should some shortcuts be taken in exceptional circumstances? Certainly as long as it doesn't compromise safety. Which is not an easy matter.
But should we do just anything just because we are in a hurry? I don't think so. It's usually the worst approach possible.

It really depends how exceptional the circumstances are.
Also, how you focus on the risks.  The risk to one person or the risk to a group of people.

If you go on the risks for any *individual* patient in extreme need of a ventilator. 
You might say
  "We have tested this completely non-certified ventilator and it seems to work, but the unit may kill the patient if it's defective or malfunctions
You can also say
   "There is a tiny chance the patient might pull through without it".
Therefore we should not use it as it might cause harm that would otherwise not have occurred.


If you go on the risks of a group of people all in extreme need of a ventilator.
You might say
  "We have tested this completely non-certified ventilator and it seems to work, but some units may kill patients if they're defective or malfunction"
And then, given the volume of people currently dying each day through lack of any ventilators.
  "When compared with not using them at all, this non-certified ventilator should save more lives than it ends through defects or malfunctions."
Therefore we should use it since it will be better for the group overall.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2020, 07:36:20 am by Psi »
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Offline PaulAm

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #90 on: April 20, 2020, 12:27:27 am »
GM partnered with Ventec to build high end critical care ventilators.  They did not use or reuse car parts, they used a current proven design.  They did use the logistical supply chain available to the auto manufacturers.  In a little over a month they went from the idea to partner with Ventec to delivering the first units to a Chicago hospital the other day with 30K units to be delivered by August, I think.  This was the combined effort of thousands of people and hundreds of suppliers that's not getting the air play they deserve.  Over a thousand employees volunteered to be trained to assemble them in Kokomo.

I heard an interview with one small supplier, a die cast manufacturer who had been in business for around 100 years.  In just over a week from the first phone calls they had received their dies for a piston central to the ventilator and had cast the first part.  In the normal course of events it usually takes 10-12 weeks to get a die made.  That was just one of 700 parts that had to be sourced.

The old line automakers do understand scale, it's really impressive when it works.

I hope somebody's taking notes, this will be a great story after the dust settles down.
 

Offline drussell

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #91 on: April 20, 2020, 01:36:32 pm »
I hope somebody's taking notes, this will be a great story after the dust settles down.

I hope you remember to include the fact that they're not building the originally intended multi-function VOCSN model, apparently due to being unable to agree on a palatable pricetag.  The deal that GM ended up making with the government is for a much simpler, cut-down "V+Pro" ventilator-only model with less than 400 parts.

It seems that GM's is set to receive $490,000,000 for its' part of the contract for the 30,000 ventilators, or $16,333 per ventilator for GM's part.  I know they are pricey machines at the best of times, but you need to remember that GM isn't exactly doing this out of altruistic concern for the citizenry (who also happen to be their potential customers.) 

Between the cash and the positive marketing spin they're expecting to generate, it's pure gold.  ;)
 

Offline PaulAm

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #92 on: April 21, 2020, 01:54:51 am »
GM is also  converting a wharehouse, I think in Reno, to an assembly facility in conjunction with Hamilton AG Medical to double their production capacity in another month or so.  Not sure what model that one will be, but it's another supply chain to build.

If you look for the stories you can find them, but Ford is the one pushing the PR blitz on how responsive they've been.  Ford is working with GE Healthcare but it's not clear when their first units will come off the line.

It's hard to find data, but it appears the list on the V+pro is around $18,000, so GM is not really making a ton of money on these, if any (profit margin on a $70K pickup is around 40% as a comparison).  Apparently the admin balked at the higher cost for the high end system so they settled on the simpler model.  Still had 400 parts in it.
 

Offline MK14

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Re: Ventilator made from car parts
« Reply #93 on: April 24, 2020, 06:52:33 pm »
Hmm interesting. Time will tell what the deal is. I'm sure it'll turn into some scandal at some point....

It seems it is over now, as the ventilators, didn't quite succeed and/or were not needed (I've only rapidly glimpsed through the article).
It sort of shows, how difficult a challenge it really is, to suddenly start producing ventilators.
At least they tried, which is good.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52409359

Quote
Dyson Covid-19 ventilators are 'no longer required

Dyson has said the medical ventilator it developed to help treat patients with Covid-19 is no longer required.

It began developing a device in response to a government appeal for firms to take part in a national effort to increase the number of ventilators.

But in a note to staff, founder Sir James Dyson said that demand for ventilators had been less than first envisaged.

The Cabinet Office said that tests on ventilators are still ongoing.
 


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