EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Electronics => Projects, Designs, and Technical Stuff => Topic started by: kvresto on May 14, 2015, 01:30:17 pm
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I'm looking at purchasing a new PC (64bit), and I'm not sure about Windows 8.
I currently run Windows7 32bit and have no issues. I'm mostly a part time Electronic wannabe Engineer, and I get involved with Embedded/Electronics/etc. So whats the general view about Win7 V's Win8? Are there compatibility issues that effect people in this forum? What should I get with any new system?
Cheers
kvresto.
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There will be compatibility problems with some older programs for older gear on even XP. Win8 is better as an OS than Win7 in some ways but most hate the GUI but it is a bit better with 8.1. Personally I would go with Win7 and use virtual machines to take of the older software.
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Mainstream support for Windows 7 ended 13-Jan-2015
Windows 10 is scheduled to be released "mid-2015".
While I have been a MS fan-boy since before Windows 1.0, the thought of a "walled-garden" style operating system where you can only install "official" apps from the "Store" just leaves me cold. If I wanted a "dumbed-down" appliance environment like that I would buy a Mac.
Frankly, it makes Linux seem more attractive. Even though Linux seems severely "Balkanized" and I'm not particularly interested in becoming an "OS-hacker". An OS is just a means to an end, not the center of attention itself.
Of course there are still thousands of devices still running XP (and even Windows 95!) Of course, those are mostly embedded controllers, not general-use computers.
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The end of mainstream support basically just means no new service packs. Extended support (bugfixes and security updates) doesn't run out until 2020 and given the size of the Windows 7 userbase it will almost certainly be extended beyond 2020 when the time comes.
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The end of mainstream support basically just means no new service packs. Extended support (bugfixes and security updates) doesn't run out until 2020 and given the size of the Windows 7 userbase it will almost certainly be extended beyond 2020 when the time comes.
That is almost word-for-word what they said about XP!
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...the thought of a "walled-garden" style operating system where you can only install "official" apps from the "Store" just leaves me cold. If I wanted a "dumbed-down" appliance environment like that I would buy a Mac.
Wow, hate much? There is nothing walled about the Mac, you can install whatever you wish from wherever you wish. And since it is Unix based, if you are a true geek you can install X windows and compile many or most open source software yourself, just as you could do on Linux or other *nix's.
I think you were thinking of Android, right?
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I'm looking at purchasing a new PC (64bit), and I'm not sure about Windows 8.
I currently run Windows7 32bit and have no issues.
What should I get with any new system?
Hello,
some older development gear does not run on a 64 Bit system.
E.g. my (parallel port) programmer Galep-4 definitively does not run on Win7 64 Bit.
So perhaps it migth be a good idea of having some dual boot if you have not a older system available.
With best regards
Andreas
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and compile many or most open source software yourself, just as you could do on Linux or other *nix's.
sure.. but what if you want non open source software ? stuck as a bug in a rug ... if they don't make it for Osx : you're screwed.
Don't get me wrong. i have a Mac too ( 27 inch mid 2010 quadcore machine ) and have a love/hate relationship with it ( just as i do with windows )
Mac Love : ease of use for simple things. just works.
Mac Hate : fingercramp inducing schortcuts like for a screen snapshot and other convoluted ways of things that should be simple.
Win Love : runs almost any tech software out there.
Win hate : 8.0 an onwards. Stupid metro touch screen interface
Linux ... Feels like the old USSR that keeps falling apart in an ever expanding number of states, each in endless conflicts with the others and at the same time keep on insisting they are 'better' than the west. Display affection for proud ancestry when challenged: you can call it the "Mother 'unix" syndrome. Lots of half finished , cobbled together , lookalike wannabe stuff that needs oodles of hours 'just compile it'.. yeah sure... to get running and still is only half arsed.
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I would choose Win7 64b for a new PC - relatively stable, compatible system. Definitely not 8.0, maybe 8.1.
Mac - not on my personal stuff, you have to pay me extra to use it. *nux/*nix - not for personal stuff, servers and special applications only.
I have some experience with *nux/*nix and my opinion about it is - before you recompile/configure/dick around with it, get references/drivers/kernels/downloads/help from others/etc. (external help/resources which needs knowledge and working computer with internet connection) to get it going properly, it is like having soldering iron solder kit or broken internet link with help over email service. It is painful!
Simple challenge to anyone who disagrees - get Linux machine without internet connection, buy/borrow WiMax/GPRS/EDGE internet USB dongle and get the internet working. No external internet connection is allowed >:D This impossible task on Linux, while it works flawlessly on Windows (install drivers from USB dongle, run application and you are ready).
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Linux ... Feels like the old USSR that keeps falling apart in an ever expanding number of states, each in endless conflicts with the others and at the same time keep on insisting they are 'better' than the west.
LOL. Spoken by a man who has real experience but not yet brainwashed fanatic.
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Linux ... Feels like the old USSR that keeps falling apart in an ever expanding number of states, each in endless conflicts with the others and at the same time keep on insisting they are 'better' than the west. Display affection for proud ancestry when challenged: you can call it the "Mother 'unix" syndrome. Lots of half finished , cobbled together , lookalike wannabe stuff that needs oodles of hours 'just compile it'.. yeah sure... to get running and still is only half arsed.
Yes, that is practically the textbook definition of "Balkanized". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkanization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkanization)
There is nothing walled about the Mac, you can install whatever you wish from wherever you wish. And since it is Unix based, if you are a true geek you can install X windows and compile many or most open source software yourself, just as you could do on Linux or other *nix's.
I was basing my distaste mostly on my experience with my iPods. Even Mac-fans hate iTunes.
I think you were thinking of Android, right?
Ironically, also based on Linux.
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My old reliable laptop failed last year so I had to obtain a new one rapidly. Of course not having an internet connection I had to get one from a local store rather than order one online.
I ended up with 8.1 as the OS including having to buy the 'new' office. I really dislike the GUI and having spent decades threatening to chop off peoples' fingers poking at my screen refuse to use a touch screen.
So I downloaded Ubuntu Linux and run that dual boot. Wine caters for regularly used Windows packages. So Ubuntu isn't as refined as Windows but I like it. I'll certainly give Windows 10 a tryout when it arrives and if I like it may revert to Windows as my main OS.
To me the OS isn't the most important thing. The computer is a tool. Like all tools I use the best one suited to the job, my needs and my pocket.
Incidentally once I got the new laptop working online I was able to diagnose the fault with my old one and obtain the spare part necessary to repair it.
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Id say my operating system usage is...
Mac (latest os) 65% - My main machine(s) all run mac and when I'm doing just about anything non-specific computer stuff thats what I turn to. As someone mentioned earlier, an OS is just a means to and end and I find OS X to be the best and easiest to use solution for what I do on the computer most of the time.
Windows (8.1) 30% - A fairly recent development since I started using a Surface Pro 3 for note-taking at school. An unintended side benefit is that I now have the perfect machine to install all the support software for my various test gear. Windows is the absolute best for compatibility in this regard. I'll borrow the long-time used mac language and say that it all "just works" (after solving some initial driver issues).
Linux (ubuntu/debian) 5% - between the raspberry pi, beagle bone black and a couple virtual machines this sees little usage. I'll boot one up when I am using the the Bus Pirate or working on a specific embedded project.
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The end of mainstream support basically just means no new service packs. Extended support (bugfixes and security updates) doesn't run out until 2020 and given the size of the Windows 7 userbase it will almost certainly be extended beyond 2020 when the time comes.
That is almost word-for-word what they said about XP!
I think Microsoft were fairly reasonable about XP support considering it was released in 2001. You can still get updates by configuring the registry to report it as a POS (Point Of Sale) version.
I'm running Windows 8.1 64bit, albeit with a replacement desktop (Start8) and in all honesty it's been a joy to use, very fast and very stable. However, if you want to system that will run older "hackier" software that e.g. might do bit bashing on parallel ports, or installing virtual serial ports etc. then you'd be better off with a 32 bit version of Windows.
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I got a new PC a couple of months ago and installed Linux on it (no that didn't take any compiling). I'm using Windows XP from a virtual machine for Windows only software. A lot of software still isn't 64bit compatible so I opted to stick with 32 bit. I'm actually using multiple Windows virtual machines to keep Windows pollution to a minimum.
I installed Windows 8 once, had a :wtf: moment because of the tiles and deleted the VM. Maybe Windows 10 could be better but Windows 7 is just less convenient to use compared to XP.
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I've been using Windows 8.1 (64 bits) for over a year now and it's fine. Honestly the only difference from Win 7 is the Start menu fills the screen. :)
No problems with compatibility, but you should check this first if you know you'll be using some specific not-so-common devices. You mentioned embedded development - I know that at least some of the popular MCU programmers (PICkit 3, USBtinyISP) work with all major operating systems.
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Mainstream support for Windows 7 ended 13-Jan-2015
That's weird... I switched my Windows 7 PC on today and there were a load of updates waiting for me.
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I've been using Windows 8.1 (64 bits) for over a year now and it's fine. Honestly the only difference from Win 7 is the Start menu fills the screen. :)
My Model M keyboard doesn't have a "Windows" key so that makes it unusable for me...
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I've been using Windows 8.1 (64 bits) for over a year now and it's fine. Honestly the only difference from Win 7 is the Start menu fills the screen. :)
My Model M keyboard doesn't have a "Windows" key so that makes it unusable for me...
WTF? ??? You don't need the Windows key to use Windows.
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That's weird... I switched my Windows 7 PC on today and there were a load of updates waiting for me.
As was observed previously, there are still security and bug patches being released until 2020.
And even for XP for all those embedded installations.
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I would definitely go for a 64-bit OS these days and make sure the machine has plenty of memory (at least 8 GB, but 12 or 16 GB would be even better).
Some specific apps may be limited to 32-bit OS versions, but for general use 64-bit is going to be vastly more comfortable.
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Just keep in mind that, if you have more than 16GB or RAM, Windows 7 Home Premium will not use all of it. I learned that the hard way. :rant:
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It is simple solution to this: Lindows if someone likes Window$ name :-DD
http://www.linux.org/threads/lindows.7653/ (http://www.linux.org/threads/lindows.7653/)
or... Vixta >:D
http://www.smokinglinux.com/opensource-news/linux-vixta-vs-vista-as-lindows-vs-windows (http://www.smokinglinux.com/opensource-news/linux-vixta-vs-vista-as-lindows-vs-windows)
(http://www.smokinglinux.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/vixta.jpg)
BTW: Vixta is a Linux Distribution based on the famous Fedora ;)
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My main desktop runs Win7 Ultimate 64bit with a WinXP 32 bit VM. I have 8 GB. On the laptop I just refurbished for workbench use, it is WIn7 32bit because right now there is only 4 GB of ram. I need to see what I can put in it and I will probably move it to 64bit. I still prefer Win7 over 8. There are 2 8.1 laptops in the house and maybe it's because I don't play with them enough, but 8.1 just feels awkward to use.
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From all the comments, I don't think anyone is having any real compatibility issues ie: drivers, general connections, running most software types used mostly by contributors to this forum, so I can't see why I cant use the current latest version, which I believe is 8.1, as I intend to use this PC for about 4-5 years as a general work machine.
kvresto.
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Hi kvresto,
If you run recent software with the latest updates and patches maybe that is right. But as mentioned you can run into problems with older software. And in the EE-CAD area vendors are not that fast or you need to pay lots.
Keep in mind: Goal --> tools (software) --> platform (OS).
NOT the other way around. And for the EE, most pro tools are MS-Win tailored.
I have many older EE software tools that still do their job perfectly but do not run stable even under W7, however they do perfectly under W2K and XP. At this moment I would say W7 with virtual XP for the old bastards. And wait for what will W10 bring. W8.1 is an intermediate try of MS to see what happen with new ideas, just as Vista was (know the history of MS Win releases, business as usual).
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Thanks Pjotr, you make a good point, I can still remember the Vista rumblings in usergroups. I'll keep it in mind.
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I have many older EE software tools that still do their job perfectly but do not run stable even under W7, however they do perfectly under W2K and XP. At this moment I would say W7 with virtual XP for the old bastards. And wait for what will W10 bring. W8.1 is an intermediate try of MS to see what happen with new ideas, just as Vista was (know the history of MS Win releases, business as usual).
Have you tried running them under Windows 7 in XP compatibility mode? (right-click the icon and look in the properties)
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Of coarse I did. Problem of older software is sometimes not MS fault but the software makers fault. I.e. memory leaks, of which W7 is extremely picky. Compatibility mode can help sometimes then but not always. Another thing is the roaming structure of W7 and later. Some older software (like my private Protel 98) crashes right away at start up. So I run that in virtual XP.
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There's a Youtube video floating around of Bill Gates interview many years ago saying he don't want to sell software or even rent it. Main plan is to be a utility company like electric or phone. Newest releases indicate he has reached his goal.