Author Topic: Disrupting Inductive Neck Loop Earpiece with EMP?  (Read 24312 times)

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Offline Frenchie

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Re: Disrupting Inductive Neck Loop Earpiece with EMP?
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2010, 11:05:35 am »
Remove the whole motivation to cheat. Allow them to have some references (notes or even a textbook) and design the exam to be based on applying the knowledge. It's pointless to make them remember reference materials - they'll remember it after lots of use - so have them learn how to actually solve problems. In the end, they'll forget the stuff that doesn't count and remember the stuff that does.

I agree! Open book exams are both a blessing and a curse, even though you have the information, take too much and you'll spend the entire exam looking for what you need. My first ever open book exam I didn't bother studying and ended up only just passing. I learnt pretty quickly after that, having the material on hand is one thing, knowing how and when to use it is another entirely. There's no point trying to read 3 chapters of a text book in a 3 hour exam as you need the time to solve the questions.

These days if I have to remember something non-trivial from my earlier years of university I have to look it up in a book. In that regard, teaching students how to quickly find the information they want and then apply it correctly is invaluable. I suspect in most cases, students cram in a semester's worth of learning and then promptly forget most of the finer details when they go on to learn something else the next semester.

All that said, I wish the OP well in his efforts to crack down on high tech cheating, it's rather a neat idea!

Of course, all of the above is moot if you use exam problems straight from lectures, tutorials or the textbook - quite a few lecturers haven't worked that one out with OB exams.
 

Offline ShidoshiTopic starter

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Re: Disrupting Inductive Neck Loop Earpiece with EMP?
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2010, 04:04:04 pm »
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They'll just find some other way to cheat.

We're trying to stay one step ahead.

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I would also say the exam questions are asked the wrong way. It sounds they are parroting exams. Exams where it is just checked if people can repeat what they have memorized, like a parrot

Yes, some exams are required to establish that the participant recognizes the meanings of symbols and can distinguish minute differences in wording.

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But anyhow, if you roughly know the frequency these devices use, build a receiver. You don't have to decode the signal, just detect its presence.

Our aim isn't to humiliate and punish individuals at this stage but to just make the current process impossible to work without openly discovering what counter-measures are in place, ignorance is bliss.

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Remove the whole motivation to cheat. Allow them to have some references (notes or even a textbook) and design the exam to be based on applying the knowledge.

Not all situations derived from the exam subject(s) are a future reference material instances, some material is required for the students to know instinctively.

We appreciate the discussion of semantics, detouring/deferring from the current task does bring some ideas to the table that would otherwise be ignored, however we are adamant to get this Project/Design to work as intended, we have pretty much openly discussed all methods here pointed out and do think that the objective set out on the first post is the most feasable solution for the current instance without directly affecting any third parties in a demeaning manner.

I personally appreciate all of your feedback. My thanks.
 

Offline Bored@Work

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Re: Disrupting Inductive Neck Loop Earpiece with EMP?
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2010, 07:26:46 am »
we have pretty much openly discussed all methods here pointed out and think that the objective set out on the first post is the most feasable solution for the current instance without directly affecting any third parties in a demeaning manner.

You are talking bullshit. The "solution" is neither easily feasible nor safe.

If you manage to send out your pulse you severely endanger the hearing of those wearing the receivers. The same applies to those wearing hearing aides and pace makers. Even if you send out much lower energy you are still risking this. You also have very little control about the range.

And, assuming you manage to create your stupid pulse, do you have the funds to compensate not only the people you hurt, but also all people for all the other damage to electronics it will do? E.g. killing people's digital watches, cell phones, labtops, iPads, their normal MP3 players, their car keys, their credit card? And is your uni willing to re-equip the lecture room every time you send out you pulse, after you killed equipment like projectors, the loudspeaker system, lights dimmer?

So, whoever you are, whoever you discussed this with, you sound more like a bunch of shitheads without a clue, wanking about something they don't understand (liberal arts students, eh?) than responsible electrical engineers.   

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Offline Fraser

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Re: Disrupting Inductive Neck Loop Earpiece with EMP?
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2010, 09:14:28 am »
Boredatwork

Thanks for the input.

My first response to the OP stated the legality issues and I trust Shidoshi has taken them on board.

Let us all be really clear on one point though.... the term EMP is emotive and we are not talking about EMP field densities here that disrupt and damage semiconductor junctions in the 'far-field'. That is a topic with which I am very familiar and Shidoshi has neither the design nor technical resources for such a device. I should also warn that a true 'far-field' high power disruptive or damage capable EMP emitter could be considered by the authorities to be a terrorist tool so it's not something to be played with.

Your comments on disruption to Pacemakers is well made. Modern Pacemakers use an inductive coupling loop for communication with the programming computer. The thought of exposing such a delicate device to any form of disruptive EM field sends a shiver down my spine ! It's a definite no-no and who is to say that a person fitted with a Pacemaker would not be effected by simply walking past the room that has the EM device deployed.

Your comments regarding the acoustic risk to the earbud user are significant. No one would be permitted to produce a device that has any potential to harm a student. A full technical risk assessment would be required and the likely outcome would be that it is not predictable or safe to use.

I come back to my proposal. Purchase a commercial APPROVED hearing aid loop system and inject a 1kHz tone into the input,. The ALC will compress the tone to a safe level but will cause an annoying tone in the earpiece of the person using an inductive earbud. The risk here would be the quality (or not) of the earbud receiver. If it is poorly designed it may be able to produce harmful levels of audio even when stimulated by an approved audio loop system. As the loop system would be an approved design this could lead to a complex legal argument as it is the receiver that is theoretically at fault but Shidoshi is deploying the loop system as a countermeasure and not for it’s intended purpose. For this reason I agree that this whole path of causing interference to the receiving earbud is a poor strategy and as I said in my first post…. Consider other options and apply the KISS principle.

Shidoshi  - Why are MP3 players allowed in exams ???? Use a standard security metal detector wand to find the MP3 player and associated inductive loop driver and prevent cheating that way. I believe schools already do this in some parts of the world to detect knives. Normal precautions for Pacemaker wearers apply.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2010, 10:02:53 am by Aurora »
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Offline .o:0|O|0:o.

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Re: Disrupting Inductive Neck Loop Earpiece with EMP?
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2010, 04:05:23 pm »
should be covert, able to be mobile, say in a backpack with a few 9V batteries or other power source that is small enough to conceive in a bag.

Really? Why?

Why should it be "covert"?

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Offline .o:0|O|0:o.

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Re: Disrupting Inductive Neck Loop Earpiece with EMP?
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2010, 04:14:17 pm »
I should also warn that a true 'far-field' high power disruptive or damage capable EMP emitter could be considered by the authorities to be a terrorist tool so it's not something to be played with.

What about lower powered disrupters covertly and strategically misplaced in rucksacks then...

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« Last Edit: November 15, 2010, 04:30:50 pm by .o:0|O|0:o. »
 

Offline Time

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Re: Disrupting Inductive Neck Loop Earpiece with EMP?
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2010, 05:42:50 pm »
I think this is more of a jamming concept than a destructive EMP concept.  There is no way you can produce electric field levels large enough with a power fet and 555 timer to physically cook electronics.  I have played around with blasting 5 megawatts of microwave power at various pieces of electronics and even than destruction could be hit or miss depending on shielding and orientation in the field.  I have lost quite a few garage door remotes and digital watches to HPM pulses.

You are better off just broadcasting something stronger in the same spectrum as their ear pieces, continuously- as John suggested.  EMP is a pretty a dumb and nonsensical approach to this.  Your low range proof of concept is invalid if you are trying to meet a power density requirement due to small space constraints. Your electric field loses go with the inverse of the distance squared so to scale from 1 m to 10 m will require quite a significant increase in power/energy density in your base system.

Use a pulsed spark discharge of about a 1/2 inch to create intense EMI in the area.

This will produce a noisey as all friggin hell environment.  Aside from possibly reseting firmware, nothing will be bricked though.  Pacemakers are usually pretty EMI hardened and won't be effected by something like this.  Cell phones as well but anything with a low frequency antenna will suffer.  Not to mention the audible noise its going to make.  It will sound like something right out of Teslas lab.  Systems like this will effect a huge area but any amount of shielding will stop them.  

Something like this is what you need if you can't get over the caveman approach of blasting emp through the air.  This is a realtively simple solution but it would probably cost 1000 USD initially and if you make mistakes it will cost more.  Consider other options.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2010, 07:11:19 pm by Time »
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Offline JohnS_AZ

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Re: Disrupting Inductive Neck Loop Earpiece with EMP?
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2010, 06:48:36 pm »
You know, you can call me another paranoid American if you like, I really don't care, but I feel compelled to say that this thread has made me uncomfortable, which is why I stopped participating a few days ago.

- If the goal was to catch cheaters, you wouldn't try to jam the signals or destroy anything through EMP, you would build a small receiver to detect the cheaters and deal with them appropriately.

- If the goal was to stop cheaters, you wouldn't build the jammer into a backpack, you'd put it in a big shiny box on the wall with a flashing red light and tell EVERYONE ABOUT it.

- Who -DOES- use loop technology legitimately? Mass transit facilities, museums, theaters, hospitals, schools, the Secret service and other law enforcement folks...

You guys do what you will. Count me out.
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Offline ShidoshiTopic starter

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Re: Disrupting Inductive Neck Loop Earpiece with EMP?
« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2010, 02:27:19 am »
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If you manage to send out your pulse you severely endanger the hearing of those wearing the receivers. The same applies to those wearing hearing aides and pace makers. Even if you send out much lower energy you are still risking this.

First few posts:
"Students with hearings-aids or pacemakers are segregated."

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And, assuming you manage to create your stupid pulse, do you have the funds to compensate not only the people you hurt, but also all people for all the other damage to electronics it will do? E.g. killing people's digital watches, cell phones, labtops, iPads, their normal MP3 players, their car keys, their credit card? And is your uni willing to re-equip the lecture room every time you send out you pulse, after you killed equipment like projectors, the loudspeaker system, lights dimmer?

Electronic equipment is strictly forbidden in exam rooms, everyone knows the rules before going in, even if we had 1 million dollars or so to spare on generating an explosive EMP blast to be anywhere near powerful enough to remotely reach the level of EM required to collaterally damage any equipment unintentionally, yes, we would be technically held accounted for that.

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should be covert, able to be mobile, say in a backpack with a few 9V batteries or other power source that is small enough to conceive in a bag.

Really? Why?

Apologies for the "covert" request, after having the EMP image from Ocean's Eleven in my mind, I was aiming to get the opposite of 'gigantic' and accidentally over stated the dimensions required. Looking for small and somewhat reasonable dimensions to still be classed as 'portable'.

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I should also warn that a true 'far-field' high power disruptive or damage capable EMP emitter could be considered by the authorities to be a terrorist tool so it's not something to be played with.

What about lower powered disrupters covertly and strategically misplaced in rucksacks then...

GSM jammers anyone? GPS jammers? Used by car thieves to jam the satelite tracking system for stolen vehicles, yet, readily available to anyone even if not in law-enforcement.

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You are better off just broadcasting something stronger in the same spectrum as their ear pieces, continuously- as John suggested.  EMP is a pretty a dumb and nonsensical approach to this.

Thank you for this. Have been heavily considering this option and transmitting over 1-1.5Khz.

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- Who -DOES- use loop technology legitimately? Mass transit facilities, museums, theaters, hospitals, schools, the Secret service and other law enforcement folks...

Exactly, that's very true. Cheating on exams isn't legitimate, but preventing such occurances withing the extent of the law, taking the human condition into consideration is perfectly legitimate.

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- If the goal was to stop cheaters, you wouldn't build the jammer into a backpack, you'd put it in a big shiny box on the wall with a flashing red light and tell EVERYONE ABOUT it.

We have a jammer which ranges from 80Mhz to 3.2Ghz if I'm not mistaken, the configuration isn't superb but is working, power consumption is awful, it's turned on at the mains often and barely visible on the wall-mounted setup. We have a portable one also with a much reduced range but works like a charm for the desired application.

EVERYONE here has contributed greatly towards the cause, even as negative as some comments might have sounded.

Thanks all, very much appreciated.
 

Offline ShidoshiTopic starter

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Re: Disrupting Inductive Neck Loop Earpiece with EMP?
« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2010, 02:35:57 am »
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- If the goal was to stop cheaters, you wouldn't build the jammer into a backpack, you'd put it in a big shiny box on the wall with a flashing red light and tell EVERYONE ABOUT it.

6 years ago when the first GSM jammer was introduced, everyone wanted to see their phone being jammed apparently, and due to a few experiences, we've widened the range on the system used greatly.

The first system jammed the pilot signal, so if someone came in with an existing call, the call wouldn't be affected, within a few days we managed to jam both pilot and carrier. Biggest issue was in fact 3G... things of the past now.
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: Disrupting Inductive Neck Loop Earpiece with EMP?
« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2010, 06:06:05 am »
i saw an experiment to test an mcu integrity that are exposed to emp... cant find it anymore in the net. they need a room sized "spooky" machine gun type projected at the chip, and IIRC the mcu preformance is barely distorted. for a backpack size portable emp gen... i dont think it can harm anything, but i dont know. just interpolating from the experiment made.

found it! its in my hd... here it is (below). pls note the device they used... well, not a room sized, but i believe thats not portable.
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Offline Nermash

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Re: Disrupting Inductive Neck Loop Earpiece with EMP?
« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2010, 09:42:21 pm »
I would probably handle this as low tech as possible.
Since earpieces are magnetic by nature, one short wave of rare earth magnet near the ears of students while entering the exam room, and bang! you have your cheaters before they even entered the room.
It is not intrusive, should not be dangerous to those wearing pacemakers, and it doesn't need a lot of time. While student is showing his ID, he/she can be quickly swept. Once you expell first three cheaters, others will become scared, and then you can randomize the testing if you like.
KISS rules :)
« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 09:12:42 am by Nermash »
 

Offline Psi

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Re: Disrupting Inductive Neck Loop Earpiece with EMP?
« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2010, 10:11:06 pm »
heh, as Nermash said, rare earth magnet

This should do  :o
http://unitednuclear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=70_71&products_id=289


It will probably crush someone to death but finding cheaters will be easy as :D
« Last Edit: November 19, 2010, 10:12:54 pm by Psi »
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Offline Nermash

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Re: Disrupting Inductive Neck Loop Earpiece with EMP?
« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2010, 09:17:26 am »
I was thinking more of a magnet size of the ones you easily find in hard drives, but this one will do also ;D

It sure will help decrease hand movement around head and lower examiner energy consumption. You might call it eco friendly :D

Only downside is that it can accelerate earpiece from another side of the head, with a lot of force and via the shortest path :o
 

Offline apex

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Re: Disrupting Inductive Neck Loop Earpiece with EMP?
« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2010, 05:50:24 pm »
Why don't get such an inductive neck loop earpiece transmitter, modify the sender circuitry and send a message like "Cheating is not allowed in this room. Please contact your system operator.".
I'm sure everyone will stop doing it.

The idea with the magnet is good, but what if you see parts like scissors or pencils with iron parts moving in your direction.

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Offline k-ww

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Re: Disrupting Inductive Neck Loop Earpiece with EMP?
« Reply #40 on: November 25, 2010, 05:01:04 pm »
I remember my father [electrican] installing a paging system in a retirement home - the transmitter was attached to several loops [2-3] of zip cord [2 conductor] wired as a large loop running around the perimeter of the hallway.  Perhaps if you did this in the exam room, around it's perimeter, you could play with a swept signal [audio - low rf [100Khz or so].  This should couple into the earbuds.  This is also how a very early house-house system with two coupling coils was set up for 'wireless' comunications between electrical experimentors - they used telephone handsets and batteries to modulate/detect the signals.
 


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