Author Topic: $14,000 per MW? 'Renewables' = economic suicide  (Read 9624 times)

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Online TerraHertz

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$14,000 per MW? 'Renewables' = economic suicide
« on: January 24, 2019, 10:03:37 pm »
http://joannenova.com.au/2019/01/warning-money-on-fire-in-vic-and-sa-electricity-prices-at-14000-per-mw/
Warning: Money on fire in Vic and SA electricity prices at $14,000 per MW

This is the kind of crap that crashes civilizations. And we're suffering it because of ideologically motivated totally fake junk science.

A few relevant recent articles below. ( Full list: http://everist.org/archives/links/__AGW_links.txt )

20190123
https://www.iceagenow.info/geologist-the-sun-not-co2-drives-earths-climate/
Geologist – "The sun, not CO2, drives Earth’s climate"
Devastating news for human-caused global warming proponents.
“The sun, not CO2, drives Earth’s climate,” says Dr Roger Higgs, long-time consultant geologist and sedimentologist.
Higgs bases his statement on four vital points:

 * Global warming and cooling are driven by the sun, specifically by the solar-sourced Interplanetary Magnetic Field, which regulates incoming cosmic rays, which in turn govern cloudiness and thus global temperature (the breathtakingly elegant Svensmark Theory).
 * Global temperature oscillations lag 25 years behind the causative solar magnetic fluctuations. This 25-year lag is due to ocean thermal inertia in remarkable agreement with the 15-20-year time lag estimated by Abdussamatov et al. 2012).
 * The idea that CO2 is the main climate driver, despite its scarcity in Earth’s atmosphere, ie 400 parts per million, near plant-starvation level, contrasts starkly with CO2’s 1,000 to 4,000 ppm levels for most of the last 600 million years.
 * Earth is now cooling.  Global warming ended in 2016: proof that the sun, not CO2, drives Earth’s climate. Moreover, from AD500 to 1200, CO2 levels were anti-correlated with Earth’s temperature.

“The reality is that man’s industrialization just happened to occur in a period of solar-driven warming, a mere coincidence, causing governments to needlessly spend trillions of taxpayer dollars on CO2-reduction efforts,” says Dr Higgs.
See entire paper, with several graphs:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/325805849_Global_warming_ended_in_2016_proof_that_the_sun_not_CO2_drives_Earth’s_climate
Here’s some information about Dr. Higgs: http://www.geoclastica.com/BudeGeoWalks.htm


20180915
https://www.iceagenow.info/temperature-was-warmer-1100-years-ago-than-it-is-todayw/
http://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/108/24/9765.full.pdf

20180919
youtube  watch?v=FlwUfwsPFzM
How Can This be Happening on our Planet and Media Doesn’t Report It

20180930
https://www.iceagenow.info/headed-for-space-age-record-cold-warns-nasa-scientist/
Headed into Space-Age record cold, warns NASA scientist

20181008
http://joannenova.com.au/2018/10/first-audit-of-global-temperature-data-finds-freezing-tropical-islands-boiling-towns-boats-on-land/
 #DataGate! First ever audit of global temperature data finds freezing tropical islands, boiling towns, boats on land

What were they thinking?

The fate of the planet is at stake, but the key temperature data set used by climate models contains more than 70 different sorts of problems.  Trillions of dollars have been spent because of predictions based on this data – yet even the most baby-basic quality control checks have not been done.

Thanks to Dr John McLean, we see how The IPCC demands for cash rests on freak data, empty fields, Fahrenheit temps recorded as Celsius, mistakes in longitude and latitude, brutal adjustments and even spelling errors.

Why. Why. Why wasn’t this done years ago?

So much for that facade. How can people who care about the climate be so sloppy and amateur with the data?

------
If you want the thesis, this is CURRENTLY freely downloadable from JCU.

https://researchonline.jcu.edu.au/52041/

https://researchonline.jcu.edu.au/view/jcu/3EEE19904EEB05089D5676FF4150A41F.html

Since JCU vilified the person the thesis is dedicated to, Bob Carter, former Head of Geology JCU, and fired McLean’s supervisor Peter Ridd, for the blasphemy of casting doubt on the veracity of alarmism regarding the GBR, there is obviously a risk that they will disappear this document as well. I will be maintaining a watch on the link and, as an alumnus, will lodge a formal complaint if this happens.


20181014
youtube   watch?v=0kcoMDFHbro
Australia is Entering a Mega Drought the Repercussions: Kevin Long (726)  30:44
Kevin Long of the LongView.com.au and David DuByne creator of the ADAPT 2030 channel on YouTube discuss how Australia is entering a mega-drought that will last 20 years and effect crop production as global cooling sets in during the new Eddy Grand Solar Minimum.

http://thelongview.com.au/

20181020
http://www.cuzzblue.com/2018/10/the-climate-change-scam-blown-to-bits.html
The Climate Change Scam Blown to Bits by 7 Pictures

20181029
http://joannenova.com.au/2018/10/interview-with-david-evans-breaking-the-impasse-in-the-climate-change-debate-and-why-he-became-a-skeptic/
  .youtube  watch?v=7Ib0UWEot3E
  The Climate Change Agenda - Dr. David Evans on Resolving Reality Radio - 26/9/18

20181114
http://joannenova.com.au/2018/11/climate-models-are-a-joke/

20181125
https://www.iceagenow.info/greatest-two-year-global-cooling-event-in-100-years-media-ignores-it/

20181201
http://www.fourwinds10.com/siterun_data/environment/weather_and_climate/news.php?q=1543510817
Professor Valentina Zharkova: The Solar Magnet Field and the Terrestrial Climate

youtube  watch?v=yqZGgaZaXig
Is The Global Temperature Record Credible?
Tony Heller

20181202
https://www.iceagenow.info/better-to-be-a-little-prepared-than-not-at-all/

20181203
https://www.iceagenow.info/astrophysicist-mini-ice-age-is-now-accelerating-important-video/
Astrophysicist – Mini Ice Age is now accelerating
Contrary to what the politicians are trying to foist on you, a new mini ice age – a new Maunder Minimum – has already started. Astrophysicist Piers Corbyn

“We are plunging now into a deep mini ice age,” says astrophysicist Piers Corbyn. “And there is no way out.”

For the next 20 years it’s going to get colder and colder on average, says Corbyn.
“The basic message is that the sun is controlling the climate, primarily via the sea.”

The new mini ice age began around 2013

“What we have happening – NOW! – is the start of the mini ice age…it began around 2013. It’s a slow start, and now the rate of moving into the mini ice age is accelerating.”

“The best thing to do now is to tell your politicians to stop believing nonsense, and to stop doing silly measures like the bird-killing machines of wind farms in order to save the planet (they say), but get rid of all those things, which cost money, and reduce electricity prices now.

“Evidence shows that man-made climate change does not exist and the arguments for it are not based on science but on data fraud and a conspiracy theory of nature,” says Piers on his website. http://weatheraction.com/

“The world is now cooling not warming and there is no observational evidence in the thousands and millions of years of data that changes in CO2 have any observable effect on weather or climate in the real world.”


20181208
http://www.investmentwatchblog.com/global-warming-enthusiasts-are-really-believe-the-malthusian-trap-modern-witch-doctor-analysis/
Global Warming Enthusiasts really believe the Malthusian Trap – Modern Witch Doctor Analysis
You have pointed out several times that the agenda behind the global warming crowd is, besides taxes, also the reduction of the global population. Initially, I had difficulties believing in this “crazy conspiracy theory”, but I start to believe you could be right. Where I live, The Netherlands, the brainwashing machine to convince people that CO2 is THE problem, is on overdrive and very effective. More and more people are believing this non-sense and regularly start to claim that the world population should decrease because we are one of the main sources of the increase of CO2 concentrations. When you ask them how that should be accomplished they reply “birth control”. But how this should be done they don´t know, but most probably (as usual) rely on the government to come up with a solution.


20181214
http://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/news/world-news/3583-10-years-ago-today-al-gore-predicted-north-pole-would-be-completely-ice-free-in-five-years
10 YEARS AGO TODAY – Al Gore Predicted North Pole Would Be COMPLETELY ICE FREE in Five Years
Gore made the prediction to a German audience on December 13, 2008. Al warned them that “the entire North ‘polarized’ cap will disappear in 5 years.”
This wasn’t the only time Al Gore made his ice-free prediction. Gore had been predicting dire scenario since 2007. That means that the North Pole should have melted completely five years ago today.
Junk scientist Al Gore also made the same prediction in 2009.

Meanwhile, in the real world:

https://www.iceagenow.info/the-cold-is-dipping-lower-and-lower-across-the-planet/
https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/world-news/climate/coldest-december-on-record-in-china/
10 Dec 2018 – At 6 below zero C, “China is also experiencing the coldest day on record during December, and snow is falling in Beijing to Shanghai. Temperatures in China have been held under 4 below zero C on only seven December days since 2000. This is the coldest on record so far.”

https://www.iceagenow.info/make-no-mistake-we-are-in-an-ice-age-right-now/
An ice age is defined as any period in which at least one pole is glaciated. The south pole has been glaciated for 13 million years.



20181218  from JStone:
Cold winter warning
This is something interesting - AFTER the Farmers Almanac predicted a brutally cold winter (which is going as the Farmers Almanac said) "climate experts" have jumped the shark by claiming there will be a VERY cold winter caused by a "climate change induced" polar vortex! HA HA HA, anything to lie. If the Farmers Almanac called it based on sunspot observation and past records and patterns, it is not any sort of global warming "vortex".

They have a war room no doubt.
In this war room, a "think tank" full of snowflakes and "those not privileged" rather than the geniuses of previous generations play scategories to come up with whatever crap they need to spew to keep the global warming mantra funneling trillions into the new world order via a carbon tax and "public consent" they intend to manufacture just by dreaming up trash.

But they missed a key factor, due to being snowflakes and "those not privileged:"

The Farmers Almanac is real and revered. It has been used for decades and if standard record (which would not be possible to reference for legit forecasts if anything was really changing) called it right, snowflakes can dream up whatever explanation for the cold they want post-facto and those with brains will only laugh.
  Ref: 20180901  https://www.farmersalmanac.com/weather-outlook/2019-winter-forecast


youtube  watch?v=tlnwhcO5NC0    (saved this video)
Orwell's Nightmare: Temperature Adjustments and Climate Change
Lies, damned lies, and statistical adjustments
SHOW NOTES: https://www.corbettreport.com/?p=23211
Who controls the temperature datasets controls the past, and who controls the past controls the future. Welcome to the Orwellian world of temperature adjustments and climate alarmism. Sit up straight and buckle up tight, because this is consensus science as brought to you by Big Brother.
Systematic manipulation of the temperature record data, always to impose an upward trend where virtually none exists.
But still failing to support the warming model predictions.


20181218
youtube  watch?v=z9A2voChiFA
How to Thrive in the New Solar Minimum, Rick Monday interviews David DuByne of Adapt 2030
 (includes good quick review of mechanism of solar influence on Earth climate.)


20181222
https://www.iceagenow.info/five-fact-about-climate-change-video/
Five Facts About Climate Change – Video
“The earth has experienced at least 17 ice ages,” says Tim Donner. On 17 occasions during the last two million years the earth has cooled off so much that we had gigantic glaciers stretching from the North Pole as far south as Kentucky that were as much as two miles thick.”
“And on 17 different occasions, for reasons scientists still don’t understand, those ice ages came to an end, and all of those gigantic sheets of ice melted – with zero man-made emissions.”
“Actual warming of the planet has still not been detected during the entire 21st century,” says Donner.
“There has been absolutely no rise in temperatures over the last 20 years.”
And in direct contradiction to Al Gore’s famous warning about an ice free Arctic, during 2018 the Arctic ice cap has actually grown.


20190123
https://www.iceagenow.info/ipcc-fatal-error-neglecting-ocean-thermal-inertia/
IPCC Fatal Error – Neglecting ocean thermal inertia

20190124
http://joannenova.com.au/2019/01/forgotten-history-50-degrees-everywhere-right-across-australia-in-the-1800s/
Forgotten history: 50 degrees everywhere, right across Australia in the 1800s
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 04:14:18 am by TerraHertz »
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Offline xavier60

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Re: $14,000 per MW? 'Renewables' = economic suicide
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2019, 02:11:20 am »
I hate seeing terminology being misused in that way.
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Offline Mr.B

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Re: $14,000 per MW? 'Renewables' = economic suicide
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2019, 03:30:47 am »
You have certainly done a lot of research there TerraHertz - well done and thank you.
This could turn into a very interesting thread.
In the meantime I will start reading through your findings.
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Online TerraHertz

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Re: $14,000 per MW? 'Renewables' = economic suicide
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2019, 04:55:37 am »
You have certainly done a lot of research there TerraHertz - well done and thank you.
This could turn into a very interesting thread.
In the meantime I will start reading through your findings.

Not really 'research'. I just make a habit of saving articles and links to articles I come across on topics that interest me. Most of those are 'political' so don't have a place here.  But it does mean I can post long lists of links when appropriate.

I used to believe the CO2/AGW line, until around 2008 when I came across a chart of Earth's atmospheric CO2 levels (and surface temp) over the history of life on Earth. Hmm... it was almost always in the 1000ppm to 4000ppm range. What? Also it doesn't correlate to temperature.
But if true these points are completely incompatible with the fundamental premise of AGW theory. This led to a lot of reading... and eventually concluding that it (the entire AGW push) is in fact a clear case of what some will insist can't exist: a high level, widespread and quite heinous conspiracy. With a lot of useful idiots following along on the gravy train.
The designed intent behind the made-up lie of CO2-climate influence, is to radically deindustrialize human society, on the way to a massive reduction of global population to less than one billion. In as short a time span as possible, like ideally yesterday.
The core people originating the AGW garbage, literally want to kill around six billion people. Naturally they aren't squeamish about trivial details like blatant lying and faking of data to achieve that.

The really hilarious part of this is, they didn't expect an actual in-your-face ice age to set in while they were trying to hype 'ever rising temperatures.' (By faking present data and manipulating the old data records to give the impression of temps trending higher.) Hence the desperate segues from 'anthropogenic global warming' to 'climate change' and now the totally ridiculous smear 'climate change denier.'  Which is doubly ironic since it's the Global Warmist cult that tries to insist the climate has been stable and static 'forever' and is only recently starting to get warmer, entirely due to humans.

Nope, they lie. Earth's climate is and always has been highly varying. Because it's a chaotic system, driven by controlling factors originating from a variable star - the Sun.  And just now, it's heading into another mini ice age. We should build a lot more coal fired power plants. They are reliable, not affected by the weather, provide cheap power, stabilize the grid, and free up CO2 from the ground to serve as plant food and re-green the planet. Earth's desert areas exist mostly because atmospheric CO2 is presently down near an all time low, dangerously near starvation level for plants. Plants need a LOT more water when they are struggling with low CO2 levels like now.

This one is relevant to eevblog interests, because the Australian government's energy policies will result in frequent widespread blackouts, and stupidly insane electricity price fluctuations. Both of which ultimately can result in total industrial and social collapse. No power for those 20+ oscilloscopes we all have.
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Online TerraHertz

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Re: $14,000 per MW? 'Renewables' = economic suicide
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2019, 11:37:54 pm »
Predictable like clockwork.

http://joannenova.com.au/2019/01/melbourne-200000-houses-blacked-out-10-companies-curtailed-as-1-in-5-year-hot-day-hits/
Melbourne, 200,000 houses blacked out, 10 companies curtailed, as 1-in-5-year hot day hits

Worth reading all of it and the comments.
http://joannenova.com.au  site has often focused on the South-Eastern Australian generating grid worsening capacity shortfalls and system instability, since even before the SA major grid collapse over a year ago. It just keeps getting worse, while the government lies, Warmist CO2 scare tactics and BOM data distortions get more extreme too. Pretending there's a cause for all this other than shear delusional stupidity and ignorance.
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Offline tautech

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Re: $14,000 per MW? 'Renewables' = economic suicide
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2019, 12:12:18 am »

Melbourne, 200,000 houses blacked out, 10 companies curtailed, as 1-in-5-year hot day hits

How will they charge their EV's ?  :scared:
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Offline cdev

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Re: $14,000 per MW? 'Renewables' = economic suicide
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2019, 12:28:21 am »
Wow, you mean I am imagining how warm it has been here, (US East Coast) in December and January? How could that be?

We've had a number of really cold days, for sure, for example, last week was pretty cold, but less and less of them and its pretty hard to ignore. Last summer wasn't as hot as some previous ones here, but it was hotter elsewhere.

The one before that I am pretty sure was a record breaker.

People are starting to plant cold weather tolerant palms around their homes here. Maybe it was possible to grow them before, people just didn't know it. But still.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2019, 12:33:58 am by cdev »
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Online TerraHertz

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Re: $14,000 per MW? 'Renewables' = economic suicide
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2019, 10:12:58 am »
http://joannenova.com.au/2019/01/nearly-a-billion-dollars-for-electricity-for-just-one-day-500-per-family/
Quote
The cost of electricity on Thursday in two states of Australia reached a tally of $932 million dollars for a single day of electricity. Thanks to David Bidstrup on Catallaxy for calculating it.

As Bruce of Newcastle says “Three days and you could buy a HELE plant with the money wasted.” That’s a power plant that could last 70 years, and provide electricity at under $50/MW. (Forget all the high charges for 30 years to pay of the capital (in red below), we could just buy the damn thing outright, paid off in full from day one.)

This is utterly and completely a renewables fail

The socialist Labor-Greens are already trying to blame it on coal, but we ran coal plants for decades without these disasters. Right now, no one is investing in coal because of bipartisan stupidity. What company would pay the maintenance fees on infrastructure so hated by the political class? The coal plants are being run into the ground. Maintenance is even being delayed to keep the plants running through peaks like this.

No country on Earth with lots of renewables has cheap electricity. How many times do I have to repeat it? This is my mantra for 2019.

In Australia when we had mainly coal and no renewables our electricity was cheap and reliable. Now we are still mainly coal, but all it takes is a poisonous small infiltration of subsidized unreliable renewables to destroy the former economic incentives, the whole market, the system: our lifestyle.
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Offline Marco

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Re: $14,000 per MW? 'Renewables' = economic suicide
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2019, 02:15:20 pm »
I think the best plants to build in the short term are coal gasification plants, it keeps your options open. Need to run on coal because of economic/security reasons? It works. Need to run on natural gas for international CO2 commitments (regardless of merit) and it still works. Some miracle happens and hydrogen generation from renewables get cheap enough  to become economical as a means for energy storage and it will very likely still work.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2019, 02:17:00 pm by Marco »
 

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Re: $14,000 per MW? 'Renewables' = economic suicide
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2019, 10:56:11 am »
Not really 'research'. I just make a habit of saving articles and links to articles I come across on topics that interest me.

That's right, it's called 'cherry picking' and is the reason you are so full of shit.

I don't know what it is about some people that drives them to this sort of thing. A sort of intellectual short-cut to feeling smug about how clever you are. Oh well done, you've uncovered a big secret because you are so clever.  Ignore that it doesn't fit reality and never mind that the entire world community of people who's job it is to study this have come to a totally opposite conclusion.  That would require some sort of normal level of self-awareness.  Just carry on feeling clever.  I'm sure the entire world's scientific community is in on a big coordinated conspiracy to somehow exterminate most of the population and it's only a plucky band of oil companies and mining conglomerates that will save us  :horse:

Get back under your bridge.
 

Offline panzer04

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Re: $14,000 per MW? 'Renewables' = economic suicide
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2019, 02:55:21 am »
It's interesting to note that at the height of the heatwave 40% of Victoria's coal capacity was offline. Granted, they are old power plants, but to imply it's reliable is just wrong. Coal power plants trip over all the time, and with very little forewarning. Solar and Wind have the benefit of being very predictable, even if variable. I find it curious that you claim that renewables are somehow responsible for high energy prices while the bulk of the shortfall is caused by power plants down for repairs.

The pessimists among us would likely claim that these plants are down for monetary reasons - Prices for power go nuts when there's a shortfall, and, well, the power plants are old and need maintenance now, during a period of peak energy demand, right? How unfortunate....  ::)
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: $14,000 per MW? 'Renewables' = economic suicide
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2019, 03:18:59 am »
I think the biggest key to getting renewable to replace fossil fuels is to work on storage tech.  The simplest form is using hydro dams to pump water into reservoirs when there is excess and then let it spin the turbine when power is needed. 

Take all the billions and billions and billions that go into oil subsidies, projects, pipelines etc and put it into researching electricity storage (whether it's a battery, or another tech) and I think it would go somewhere.

The actual renewable source of energy are at a good state right now.  Solar, wind, etc.  There is always room for improvement, but I think the main focus should be storage.  The nature of the best is renewables arn't always producing so we need a way to produce extra, and store it long term. The goal would be to overproduce, and over store, so when they arn't producing you have ample storage.  Whether this is a battery, or some kind of chemical process that generates a renewable fuel source, we need to discover it. 
 

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Re: $14,000 per MW? 'Renewables' = economic suicide
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2019, 03:33:53 am »
I think the biggest key to getting renewable to replace fossil fuels is to work on storage tech.  The simplest form is using hydro dams to pump water into reservoirs when there is excess and then let it spin the turbine when power is needed. 

Take all the billions and billions and billions that go into oil subsidies, projects, pipelines etc and put it into researching electricity storage (whether it's a battery, or another tech) and I think it would go somewhere.

The actual renewable source of energy are at a good state right now.  Solar, wind, etc.  There is always room for improvement, but I think the main focus should be storage.  The nature of the best is renewables arn't always producing so we need a way to produce extra, and store it long term. The goal would be to overproduce, and over store, so when they arn't producing you have ample storage.  Whether this is a battery, or some kind of chemical process that generates a renewable fuel source, we need to discover it. 
We already have a very cheap and very reliable storage technology - it's called thermal storage. It makes even more sense when the biggest energy uses in most homes - HVAC and hot water - are thermal in nature. Problem is, there's not much incentive to invest in it.
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Offline Marco

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Re: $14,000 per MW? 'Renewables' = economic suicide
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2019, 03:35:57 am »
Yes, thermal storage can carry power across entire seasons at reasonable cost ... as far as the container goes. The problem is the cost of installing district heating.
 

Online NiHaoMike

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Re: $14,000 per MW? 'Renewables' = economic suicide
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2019, 03:56:05 am »
It can be done in a more distributed way - every home having a thermal storage device.
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Offline Marco

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Re: $14,000 per MW? 'Renewables' = economic suicide
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2019, 04:11:05 am »
You need to make the cube law work for you to get season crossing storage, can't do it going small.
 

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Re: $14,000 per MW? 'Renewables' = economic suicide
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2019, 05:29:42 am »
Even just one day of thermal storage will go a long way for peak spreading and a few days will handle a large percentage of weather variations.
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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: $14,000 per MW? 'Renewables' = economic suicide
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2019, 06:13:35 pm »
Far easier explanation.

Easily missed for its banality.

Follow the money.

In a dictatorship, money goes to the friends and cronies of the ruling elite.  In a democracy, it goes to the friends and cronies of the ruling elite.  The only thing that's different is the relative amount and frequency -- in the former, the amounts are large and the number, small; in the latter, the amounts are relatively small and the number, large.  That is, there are many more pet projects, "special interests" in the latter case.

So I ask: who owns the coal power plants?  Who owns (or is investing in) the renewable plants?

There, you will find your answer.

Not from some geologist (a geologist discussing global climate is a laughable claim, anyway; of course it depends on the sun -- and volcanic activity -- over geological time scales!), not from random news articles (come on, at least be the academic articles they are hopefully based upon?).

There can be no effective discussion of system-level dynamics, from lone elements within the system.  Only an extrinsic, system-level explanation can explain the dynamics of the system. :)

Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 
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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: $14,000 per MW? 'Renewables' = economic suicide
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2019, 08:36:49 pm »
There can be no effective discussion of system-level dynamics, from lone elements within the system.  Only an extrinsic, system-level explanation can explain the dynamics of the system. :)

Absolutely.

The most obvious approach to take when being confronted with a seemingly absurd decision/project is always to ask oneself whomever might benefit from it.
There is usually an answer to that.

 

Offline CCitizenTO

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Re: $14,000 per MW? 'Renewables' = economic suicide
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2019, 04:37:29 pm »
Yeah I remember when the datagate thing happened... Apparently they were cherry picking data which proved warming. Also their models were showing that cooling was a possibility they did a very hard push to rebrand 'Global Warming' to 'Climate Change' because it's hard to say the world is getting hotter when the winters are just as bad as the summers  :P
 

Offline james_s

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Re: $14,000 per MW? 'Renewables' = economic suicide
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2019, 05:55:10 pm »
The world *is* getting warmer, that doesn't mean that some parts of the world are not getting colder. It's because people's lack of understanding that it is more appropriately called "climate change". Some idiots can't figure out that a cold snap where they live doesn't mean the average temperature of the planet is not increasing.
 

Offline george80

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Re: $14,000 per MW? 'Renewables' = economic suicide
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2019, 02:19:12 am »

Not sure what the actual topic of this thread is but seems to contain 2 pet interests so I'll sart off her with my first post no doubt being hated by some.

There is a big gut busting hurry by the green motivated here in Oz to rush into renewable as fast as possible and treat it like the be all  cure for all our power and environmental concerns.  The greenwashed won't hear of a gradual transition where say we use Solar particularly through teh day and wind where available to offset coal generation.  They believe that it all has to be sunshine and unicorn farts tomorrow even though that's technically not possible and going to wreak havoc of the grid and the country's economics.

The follow the money comment was spot on.  The whole Globull warming thing is perpetuated by gubbermints and big biz hat always attach a cost to do ing the right thing when there are so many ways or reducing emissions, conserving resources and energy and they are all ignored and never mentioned. They can be done without going back to the stone age or inconveniencing people.

One such simple thing would be to put a ban on product dumping where perfectly good products are dumped , usually into landfill, Because they are last years model, last seasons fashion, succeeded or what ever but are still brand new, perfectly safe and functional products just wasted for marketing branding reasons. Never gets a mention but if this were outlawd, the saving in all areas would be huge.

I doubt many people realise how much this goes on but I can guarantee people that there are semi trailer and container loads of this going on every single day in sydney alone.  Multiply that on a world while scale and it would be millions of tion of perfectl good product going to waste.

But somehow we think that Oz should save the world by reducing emissions  even though the chief scientist himself said it would not make one bit of difference to the world climate if our emissions were zero. It's not about Coal or renewable, it's all about companies and their puppet Gubbermints making Billions.... $2.7Bn is the projected profits for the power companies this financial year.

The grid in oz atm has the single and prime function of a money generating machine. Any BS about reliable supply and being cheap and dependably is nothing more than a con Job.  They want to get rid of coal because it is cheaper to make money from solar. Forget the fact it only works less than half the time, the profits are 3X better so more money from less expense.  Perfect!  if you are a CEO  that gets a performance Bonous or a corporate level share holder.

For the average family..... Look the hell out!

To prove the whole sham of the Oz grid, while the lights go out on hundreds of thousands of homes and Pollies get on the box and say don't  use your AC on stinking hot days, the power co's whine and lie about domestic solar posing a danger to the grid and crap about over voltage and using that BS as an argument to limit the amount of solar people can install and therefor be self sufficent.

They can spend billions on solar farms, tens of millions on Gas turbine generators that suck down 2 Semi trailer tankers of fuel an HOUR, but they don't ( supposedly) have any money to upgrade the ancient transformers to cater for solar back feed.
they tell us all about the technical difficulties which is pure and utter garbage. Other countries ENCOURAGE private solar and even give 1:1 credits on it but we are lied to that it can't be done.
IT CAN!

I hear all about these areas with too much solar. I have never actually heard WHERE these area are or seen a google earth showing where every home  and business has panels.  I am yet to work out how an area can have so many homes generating but no Shopping centres, schools, hospitals, factories, Offices, Businesses and housing units that all use power and loads of it, but have no generation within say 10 or even 5Km of these over saturated solar areas.

There aren't enough houses in most places to generate enough power to supply the local area and if the power can come it, it CAN go out just a short 10 Km when it came from hundred or even 1000Km away.  To say it can't is garbage and an insult to ones intelligence. you can make every excuse but at the end of the day, if they wanted it to work, it could and easily.

It's complete and utter bullchit.

Until they get actually get serious about a cost effective reliable grid the rest is just selling papers for the media mates, giving the pollies something to appear to be doing and just a complete and utter scam for the rest of us.
While I am not against the ideals of cleaner air etc, the green movement are a joke too pretending thee is scientific fact for nothing more than bought and paid for opinions.  You can get scientists, university research etc to say any damn thing you want it to when you are paying the bill. Gubbermint scientists will tow the lines as well to what ever their election fund contributors for their bosses tell them they want the research to say.

Unfortunetly for the greenwashed, They are the most SOL of all.  Big biz will do what is most profitable. Not whats best for the environment, the people or anything else other than the annual balance sheet and directors bonuses.

I'm in the process of setting up my place to have stand alone power.
I was waiting for it to be economical but learning as I went. I thought I had a lot of time because it's hard to make power cheaper than the grid, dear as the grid may be.
There is another force at play here now and that's supply.  It's going to get a HELL of a lot more unreliable qithin the next couple of years. the writing is on the wall and in the news every day for those that want to look.

I'm putting up another 8 Kw of solar panels to being my total to 27 and I picked up  a 12Kw head I'm mating to one of my diesel engines.  Once the power starts getting unreliable I'll get a forklift battery back and change the  house to off grid. I already make more power than I use except in winter but with the extra panels, the genny and an oil fired heater I'm building atm, I should have more than enough to see us through.

Commercial Home battery's are a joke as far as economic returns go but I bet a lot more non DIY types will be clamoring to put them in once the power becomes sketchy as there is no doubt it's going to get.

Real Sketchy!
 
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Offline tautech

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Re: $14,000 per MW? 'Renewables' = economic suicide
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2019, 04:56:53 am »
Welcome to the forum george80.

Great first post and with sentiments that are mirrored the world over.  :clap:

WRT you becoming self sufficient, a thread that might give you some ideas:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/renewable-energy/pv-energy-less-expensive-than-natural-gas/
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline george80

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Re: $14,000 per MW? 'Renewables' = economic suicide
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2019, 09:57:51 am »
Welcome to the forum george80.

Thank You.
I shall refrain from writing on my laptop when I am tired and my eyesight is not the best in future. Re -reading that post and the spelling/ grammatical errors is embarrassing!  Ah well.

I have always had a thing about being energy sufficient or at least having backup and until now my collection of engines and generator was just my play toys or to the wife, Junk.  It seems now they may come in very handy in the not too distant future.
I have always enjoyed the short black outs we have had living in Sydney every 5-10 years as it gave me a chance to roll out my toys and be the only one in the street with teh lights on. Much to the annoyance of the neighbours in some cases. Even then those outages were generally caused by a vehicle taking out a pole or a bad storm.

Now it seems pretty likely those Genny's are going to become something that is a lot more needed. I can see them going from something that might be in one of every 20 households to something nearly everyone will have.  And need.
Keeping things going at home is one thing, not much happens in even the corner shop now without power.

Right now the talk is all about Peak power but I can soon see interruptions being par for the course.
With all the razamatazz about electric vehicles, the load they are going to add in the next 10 to 20 years is huge. I have seen this dismissed as only being  a fraction of the total power consumption.  It's going to be anything but minimal.  They can't supply everyone with a few extra KW on a hot day, How the hell do the green believers think we are doing to supply everyone an average of double to triple their regular demand EVERY day?

Oh, that's right, you can charge the car from your panels at home! If the car is at home that is. And of course then what are you going to power the house with?  and what are you going to do in winter when instead of making 25 Kwh a day like you do in summer you are making 5-10 Kwh.... and a lot less than that if it's an overcast day.....

I really would like to know where all the power is going to come from in holiday time when the service center's on the pacific highway have 50 cars in there art a time all wanting to suck  down 100Kw of power, at least, so they can continue on their way.
But there is always a feel good answer for theses problems from the sunshine and rainbows crowd.

I have spent too many hours reading about what's going on with the grid, the way any discussion on reliable and cheap power is always sabotaged with the  green " It can ONLY be ALL renewable" and watched the Pollies lips moving indicating they were lying. Again.
I am a pessimist and so far in my 50+ years it's never brought me undone. I have grave fears for the way things are going to go with our power supply. My prediction is it's going to go down in a big smoking mess where the private interests will abandon it and not only will we the little guy have to pay through the nose for the power when we can get it, we'll have to pay even more to clean up the carnage left behind.

Talk of coal and Renewables is at the end of the day, something to keep us amused while our national assets are raped and pillaged and big biz does exactly what it wants which is make max profits.
Sure they will act concerned about other things but at the end of the day, their fixed goal will never change and the only thing they do will be the most profitable one. the rest is just selling it to us suckers it was a justifiable decision.

I will check out the interesting thread you linked.

Thanks again.
 
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Online bd139

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Re: $14,000 per MW? 'Renewables' = economic suicide
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2019, 10:42:54 am »
I really would like to know where all the power is going to come from in holiday time when the service center's on the pacific highway have 50 cars in there art a time all wanting to suck  down 100Kw of power, at least, so they can continue on their way.
But there is always a feel good answer for theses problems from the sunshine and rainbows crowd.

This is the one that makes me laugh here in the UK. You think you've got it bad? Minor rant sorry.

Well here they're going to ban petrol and diesel cars by 2040 apparently. So that means we need 30GW of additional power online or another 10 nuclear stations in 20 years. Aka £200bn of power plants and then the fuel to run them. Then there's the distribution costs, another £50bn. At the same time they're killing our biggest industrial and political alliance, which has already lead to the cancellation of one nuclear plant, and there's renewable and anti-nuclear propaganda all over the place which is pointless because we can't generate 30GW of renewables in this country as we're a pissy little island that's dark most of the time and not that windy really in the scale of things. This is all under the guise of tackling "climate change" and selling us renewables  :palm:

Maybe if they connected a generator the legs of the shite pedallers then we'd be sorted.

Whole world's going to change in the next 30 years and it's not going to be pretty and it's not because of AGW, if that even exists, but commercial and political idiocy. I'm moving to the sticks and will have to go full mad max I reckon :)
 
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