Actual data proving Tesla EV's are 8 times less costly to operate than ICE

[DougSpindler]

In the EEVblog forums I have seen a large number of posts arguing if EVs or ICE cars are less costly.  Here's actual real world proof that EVs are in fact 8 times less costly to drive and maintain than ICE vehicles.  This interview is from 2017 and I would have thought some smart people would have seen and posted this by now.

What a story.  This kid at 16 wants a Tesla Model X.  With only $300 in his pocket he's able to get a Model X and starts a business of driving people who don't want to fly.  Sounds like he was doing well as he know has 9 or 10 Tesla's in his fleet.  Brilliant!

He talks about "burning" out Tesla batteries by fast charging them to 100% 3 and 4 times a day.  Teslas in his fleet are some if not the highest mileage Tesla cars there are.

It's going to be interesting to see the replies from the ICE Luddites out there who will find some twisted way to say this kid is wrong.

But the facts are the facts.  This kid has the cars, and has the data and has done the calculations to prove Tesla EVs are EIGHT times less expensive to fuel and maintain than a compatible ICE vehicle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VspjxmsIqxo&ab_channel=D%C3%86rik

[CatalinaWOW]

There are few, if any, who say that operating costs are not lower.  It is total cost of ownership that is in dispute, and that is harder to compare.  Some is clearly statutory and subject to change, such as the subsidies for EV purchase and the lack of road use taxes for EVs.  I will say that I have been pleasantly surprised by the life of the batteries.  I was quite concerned that battery cost would dominate operating cost.  While the data is not all in on this, the answers to date are hopeful.

[DougSpindler]

You are right, there are many ways to look at this.  But, It's hard to argue what people might say with a vs. a smart kid who has actual detailed data for 9-10 Tesla cars.  This kid, (prior to covid) appears to have had a nice growing business based.

[Marco]

For the cost of one way trip with his Teslas you can rent a car for an entire day and buy the fuel for the one way trip.

Also his service is called tesloop, his whole marketing depends on driving Teslas ... he doesn't drive any comparable cars, he has no numbers for them and he has a clear commercial incentive to talk up Teslas.

This has nothing to do with being a luddite, just not optimistic about human nature.

[DougSpindler]

For the cost of one way trip with his Teslas you can rent a car for an entire day and buy the fuel for the one way trip.

Also his service is called tesloop, his whole marketing depends on driving Teslas ... he doesn't drive any comparable cars, he has no numbers for them and he has a clear commercial incentive to talk up Teslas.

This has nothing to do with being a luddite, just not optimistic about human nature.

Not a fair comparison.  The kid gives you snacks...  I've never received any snacks with any of my rental cars.  And the kid includes a driver so one can sleep.  And the kid picks you up at your home.  All something rental car companies do not do.

Hard to believe out of all of the ICE transportation businesses that are out there they don't have keep any records of operational costs.  I know they do, because years ago I worked for one and we had to track fuel and maintenance costs against the mileage driven.  If those number don't exist, how could he do a comparison?

For a guy who is promoting Tesla products why does he talk about the times when the cars just died and his riders were left on the side of the road?  He's sure talking smack about the product you say he's promoting.
 

[Marco]

Not a fair comparison.

The service from the interview stopped a long time ago, they switched to a rental model ... and now it's gone entirely due to corona.

[DougSpindler]

Not a fair comparison.

The service from the interview stopped a long time ago, they switched to a rental model ... and now it's gone entirely due to corona.

Why not go to the source?  https://www.tesloop.com/  Operations have been suspended due to covid.  (Or that's what the web site is saying.

But does that mean all of the data collected is invalid?  Of course not.  His fleet of Tesla cars have collected years of valuable data we can use to do a comparison between ICE and EVs.

I am an EV owner for several years now.  While I am just one data point, and don't have detailed records I have collected enough empirical evidence to know an EV is defiantly much less costly to fuel and maintain than an ICE vehicle.

 

[hendorog]

Is there a link to the data itself somewhere?

[hendorog]

Not a fair comparison.

The service from the interview stopped a long time ago, they switched to a rental model ... and now it's gone entirely due to corona.

Why not go to the source?  https://www.tesloop.com/  Operations have been suspended due to covid.  (Or that's what the web site is saying.

But does that mean all of the data collected is invalid?  Of course not.  His fleet of Tesla cars have collected years of valuable data we can use to do a comparison between ICE and EVs.

I am an EV owner for several years now.  While I am just one data point, and don't have detailed records I have collected enough empirical evidence to know an EV is defiantly much less costly to fuel and maintain than an ICE vehicle.

 

Ok, I can see the data consists of just a statement in the video. Just accepting it as true.

To be objective, the video provides a datapoint about high mileage vehicles. That will make EV's look good as the lower operating cost will dominate depreciation. I think if you want to make a case for the average person, then this video is irrelevant.

The running cost for an expensive new vehicle which doesn't do large miles/year, does not have a very big impact on TCO. It is depreciation that dominates. Teslas fare poorly here as they are relatively costly.

In general I think it is reasonable to say that an EV costs more than a comparable ICE vehicle. I don't think that will be the case for too much longer, but it is a problem for EV's right now.

There may be an angle that EV's hold their value better, have you collected any data on that?

[CatalinaWOW]

For the cost of one way trip with his Teslas you can rent a car for an entire day and buy the fuel for the one way trip.

Also his service is called tesloop, his whole marketing depends on driving Teslas ... he doesn't drive any comparable cars, he has no numbers for them and he has a clear commercial incentive to talk up Teslas.

This has nothing to do with being a luddite, just not optimistic about human nature.

Not a fair comparison.  The kid gives you snacks...  I've never received any snacks with any of my rental cars.  And the kid includes a driver so one can sleep.  And the kid picks you up at your home.  All something rental car companies do not do.

Hard to believe out of all of the ICE transportation businesses that are out there they don't have keep any records of operational costs.  I know they do, because years ago I worked for one and we had to track fuel and maintenance costs against the mileage driven.  If those number don't exist, how could he do a comparison?

For a guy who is promoting Tesla products why does he talk about the times when the cars just died and his riders were left on the side of the road?  He's sure talking smack about the product you say he's promoting.

Agree.  Not a fair comparison.  But apples and oranges comparisons are rife here.  He mentions one data point, $11K for 311k miles in a Tesla Model X.  Then mentions maintenance costs for a Lincoln Town Car for comparison.  While I agree that the cost for the Model X will be less than for a comparable ICE car, a Lincoln Town Car isn't really that vehicle.  He references $30k as I recall for the Town Car operating cost, which doesn't sound unreasonable to me.  But he also referenced $110K as the cost of the ModelX.  So the total cost of ownership is very comparable.

Comparing the cost of a single seat in a small bus (which is what his service is) with Uber and other services which dedicate a vehicle to a passenger is one of the unfair comparisons.  Unfair when comparing operating cost.  Completely fair when comparing the cost of getting a ride.

He seems to be doing OK as a business, but little of his business model depends on an EV.  A cooler full of snacks.  Charging cables.  A driver.  Curbside pickup.  All possible with either vehicle type.  Assuming purchase price is the same for ICE/EV (not close to true at the moment, but just let that ride for the moment) his advantage is the operating costs, a $20k savings over the 311k miles.  Better than a thumb in the eye, but in a world where most businesses look to double or more their investment over a similar time period this looks pretty lame.  Now it worked well for this kid because he was able to take advantage of a program that Tesla has since discontinued (apparently wasn't working financially for them) which allowed him to return vehicles regardless of mileage.  Effectively no up front investment, making that $20k return much more appealing.

I agree, businesses know what it costs to operate their vehicles.  The fact that they still largely operate ICE indicates that either their data doesn't show a compelling reason to switch, or that they see significant uncertainty in EV total cost of operation.  Many businesses are experimenting with EV, suggesting that the latter reason is significant.

[DougSpindler]

I think it is fair to say this is an experiment in progress.  And to complicate matters, the technology is continuing to change which makes just complicates the analysis.  We have so few data points with EV cars over 500,000 miles we just don't know.  And for the few cars in the 500,000 mile range those cars have the "older" battery technology which doesn't really can't be applied to the "current" battery technology.

With that said, I think we do have two very credible independent data sources which can be trusted.  (Sandy and the Tesloop fleet of cars.)  And Yes, Tesloop is not your "average" driver, but it's the only data we have to work with for a high millage EVs.  It's going to be another 5 to 10 years before we really have enough data and miles on the batteries to really know.  I think the kid from Tesloop has really did his homework and has clearly demonstrated there is a substantial cost savings with EVs.

[DougSpindler]

@CatalinaWOW  I think for these big transpiration fleets it's a matter of "trusting" EVs reliability.  I was very reluctant to buy my first EV so I leased it.  When the lease was up without hesitation I purchased my next car which was an EV as well.  (No more ICE for me.)

Nobody wants to be first when it comes to new technology.  As the kid said in his videos Teslas failed on him leaving passengers stranded at the side of the road.  Hard to run a business when the product you are using to make money fails on you.

I'm seeing small fleets like private/corporate Uber type companies all using EV to shuttle employees around corporate campuses.  They tried, and now trust the technology.  As Sandy said in one of his videos the car industry is a "good old boys" network.  If you buy what you've been buying and it works you won't get fired.  These young kids aren't into that.  They look at ICEs as being like a rotary dial phone that's destroying the planet.  They are the ones who are changing the car industry.

I hope you saw the video where Sandy explained when the economy was bad and new college grads were not being hired by the car industry Elon/Tesla hired them.  (So did Sandy.)  They brought new technologies and ideas to the table which is why Tesla is so brilliantly designed.  There are those of us who might not like Elon or Tesla, but we should give credit to Tesla engineers and respect what they have accomplished.  They totally disrupted the entire car industry.  And don't you think it's about time someone did?  It takes a disruption like this for the entire industry to evolve.  The is capitalist Darwinism in action.  This is survival of the fittest.  I would have thought Tesla would have gone bankrupt long ago.  Now companies like Ford don't want to be a car company with technology.  They want to be a Tesla, a technology company that makes cars.

This has to be one of the best experiments ever and we are right in the middle of it.

[CatalinaWOW]

Doug, I almost completely agree with you.  And your last sentence defines the element of disagreement.  You say we are in the midst of a giant experiment.  I agree totally.  But you seem to think the experiment is over and the results are in, where I think there is much data still to be collected.

Even things that won't be apparent until EVs grow in scale to match current ICE (assuming it goes that way).  Many "features" of ICE did not become apparent until truly large scale was achieved.  Including the ability to change the atmosphere.  I don't know if EVs have any similar "features".  Nobody does.

[NiHaoMike]

I agree, businesses know what it costs to operate their vehicles.  The fact that they still largely operate ICE indicates that either their data doesn't show a compelling reason to switch, or that they see significant uncertainty in EV total cost of operation.  Many businesses are experimenting with EV, suggesting that the latter reason is significant.

Or they already own the vehicles and have no reason to replace them when there's years of useful life left.

[DougSpindler]

I agree, businesses know what it costs to operate their vehicles.  The fact that they still largely operate ICE indicates that either their data doesn't show a compelling reason to switch, or that they see significant uncertainty in EV total cost of operation.  Many businesses are experimenting with EV, suggesting that the latter reason is significant.

Or they already own the vehicles and have no reason to replace them when there's years of useful life left.

Corporate customers typical lease vehicles for 3 years.  (Tax advantages.)  So while they might have years of useful life they are constantly replacing their vehicles.  I'm noticed cabs are using EV over gas as well.  It's the trickle down and out effect.   

[Bud]

He is losing business while charging the cars, it takes time.  With an ICE car it only takes a minute or two to refuel.

[DougSpindler]

@CatalinaWOW  I didn't mean to imply this experiment is anywhere near to being over.  It's gong to take 20 if not 30 years or more.  That's about what it took when cars were replacing horses.  Steam was the proven reliable technology.  Electricity and liquid hydrocarbons were the "new" kids.  Electric cars were reliable, didn't scare horses with backfires and there were cleaner.  Cars until Ford mass production were only for the wealthy.  It took good 30 years before everyone gave up and steam and EVs.

And here were are about 100 years later and it's almost the same experiment except lets swap hydrogen for steam.

[DougSpindler]

He is losing business while charging the cars, it takes time.  With an ICE car it only takes a minute or two to refuel.

Only car I know that can be refueled in a minute or two is a FormulaOne or Nascar.  For most it's about 8 to to 15 minutes provided there's no line.  That's only 5 to 10 minutes faster than with a super charger.  Gives one time to go to the bathroom or get something to eat.

[EEVblog]

There are few, if any, who say that operating costs are not lower.  It is total cost of ownership that is in dispute, and that is harder to compare.

Yes, and that is the trick.
Great for those owners who get EV's subsidised by the government, sometimes massively so.
Here in Australia with near zero tax breaks, the cheapest EV on the market is $54k driveaway. In comparison there are more than half a dozen ICE cars under $20k.

That being said, personally I can see a tax value proposition for an EV for myself, and will almost certainly get a new Hyundai IONIQ shortly. I should come out ahead over the long term.

[EEVblog]

He is losing business while charging the cars, it takes time.  With an ICE car it only takes a minute or two to refuel.

Only car I know that can be refueled in a minute or two is a FormulaOne or Nascar.  For most it's about 8 to to 15 minutes provided there's no line.

My Toyota Corolla with it's small tank would only take a few minutes tops, even on a slow pump, and you can pay at the pump with credit card if you want.
Flow rates are up to 50L/minute, but I see roughly 30-ish around here. My tank in only like 35L so it's under 2 minutes to fill it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_pump

[DougSpindler]

He is losing business while charging the cars, it takes time.  With an ICE car it only takes a minute or two to refuel.

Only car I know that can be refueled in a minute or two is a FormulaOne or Nascar.  For most it's about 8 to to 15 minutes provided there's no line.

My Toyota Corolla with it's small tank would only take a few minutes tops, even on a slow pump, and you can pay at the pump with credit card if you want.
Flow rates are up to 50L/minute, but I see roughly 30-ish around here. My tank in only like 35L so it's under 2 minutes to fill it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_pump

Not in America.  Are your tanks smaller?  (Because they sized in liters and not gallons?) 
It takes us a minute or more to get or credit card authorized at the pump.  Longer if you are paying with cash or have to present the card to the station agent.  Then it takes almost a minute for the pump to start.   Then you've got about 5 minutes to fill the take and keep topping it off until the gas right to the top of the filler tube.  Then you have to put the cap on hand the pump up and get your change if paid with cash or get your card back if it had to be presented. 

And all of this is considering there is no line.  American will line-up to pay $0.10 less per gallon of gas at the station across the street and then pay the credit card surcharge of $0.10 gallon making the cost the same as the station across the street.  Aren't we smart?   

 

[CatalinaWOW]

He is losing business while charging the cars, it takes time.  With an ICE car it only takes a minute or two to refuel.

Only car I know that can be refueled in a minute or two is a FormulaOne or Nascar.  For most it's about 8 to to 15 minutes provided there's no line.  That's only 5 to 10 minutes faster than with a super charger.  Gives one time to go to the bathroom or get something to eat.

Gas pumps in the US provide 5-10 gpm of fuel.  I see no way to make that turn into 8-15 minutes.  More like 3-5.  A thumb on the scale does no good in any discussion.

[DougSpindler]

He is losing business while charging the cars, it takes time.  With an ICE car it only takes a minute or two to refuel.

Only car I know that can be refueled in a minute or two is a FormulaOne or Nascar.  For most it's about 8 to to 15 minutes provided there's no line.  That's only 5 to 10 minutes faster than with a super charger.  Gives one time to go to the bathroom or get something to eat.

Gas pumps in the US provide 5-10 gpm of fuel.  I see no way to make that turn into 8-15 minutes.  More like 3-5.  A thumb on the scale does no good in any discussion.

Okay, I guess you are right.  I can fill my car in 3-5 minutes just as along as I don't have to pay for it.

[fourfathom]

Okay, I guess you are right.  I can fill my car in 3-5 minutes just as along as I don't have to pay for it.

I regularly fill the top half of my car's fuel tank (say 10-12 gallons) in about four minutes.  The stopwatch starts when I step out of the car, and stops when I get back in.  I pay at the pump with a credit card.  Card authorization takes about 15 seconds.

[f4eru]

I regularly fill the top half of my battery in 30 sec.
The stopwatch starts when I step out of the car, and stops when enter my home. (that's 15 sec, the other 15 sec is the reverse, the next morning)