Author Topic: Actual data proving Tesla EV's are 8 times less costly to operate than ICE  (Read 2153 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Actual data proving Tesla EV's are 8 times less costly to operate than ICE
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2020, 01:05:13 am »
Not in America.  Are your tanks smaller?  (Because they sized in liters and not gallons?) 

I don't know, but I doubt it. A small car like my Toyota Corolla has a small tank, don't think I've ever filled it with more than 35L.
The wife's Nissan Dualis has a much bigger tank, something like 45L to fill up. But still under two minutes.
Every time I'm at the pump I like to guestimate flow rate by counting the seconds. Only very rarely would I encounter an old pump that's slower than 1L per two seconds.

Quote
It takes us a minute or more to get or credit card authorized at the pump.  Longer if you are paying with cash or have to present the card to the station agent.  Then it takes almost a minute for the pump to start.   Then you've got about 5 minutes to fill the take and keep topping it off until the gas right to the top of the filler tube.  Then you have to put the cap on hand the pump up and get your change if paid with cash or get your card back if it had to be presented. 

Them your system sucks. Last time I was in the US you had to go into the station first and give the attendant your credit card or get it authorised or something and then go back outside to fill up. Completely stupid system. Here you just lift the nozzle and fill up, might take 10 seconds for the attendant to reset the pump. Rarely a line in the shop to pay and then it's "tap-n-go".
I can fill up and be out of the petrol station with 500km worth of fuel in well under 5 minutes, including going into the shop to pay for it and getting some snacks.

There is no way for the forseeable future that EV's will even come close to refill time / range of ICE cars. Petrol is just too massively efficient.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2020, 01:10:21 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline maginnovision

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Re: Actual data proving Tesla EV's are 8 times less costly to operate than ICE
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2020, 01:32:17 am »
I think Doug is living somewhere strange up there in Northern California. Maybe humboldt where time often moves slower than the rest of the planet. Here in southern california there is no such "minutes" to use a credit card(unless the pump reader is broken then maybe you have to go inside). A lot of them have tap'n'go on the pump itself and I'm not sure it could be easier.
 

Offline Bud

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Re: Actual data proving Tesla EV's are 8 times less costly to operate than ICE
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2020, 01:37:31 am »
He is losing business while charging the cars, it takes time.  With an ICE car it only takes a minute or two to refuel.

Only car I know that can be refueled in a minute or two is a FormulaOne or Nascar.  For most it's about 8 to to 15 minutes provided there's no line.  That's only 5 to 10 minutes faster than with a super charger.  Gives one time to go to the bathroom or get something to eat.

I do not know what kind of fueling station it should be to take 8 to 15 minutes, this sounds absolutely ridiculous. We have self served pumps here with contactless tap. I cant even remember when was the last time I had to go inside to see the attendant.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Actual data proving Tesla EV's are 8 times less costly to operate than ICE
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2020, 02:35:08 am »
I do not know what kind of fueling station it should be to take 8 to 15 minutes, this sounds absolutely ridiculous. We have self served pumps here with contactless tap. I cant even remember when was the last time I had to go inside to see the attendant.

The ones here you usually have to have a specific card type in order to use it, they want to lock you into their credit card deal. It sucks. Takes barely a minute extra to go inside and tap though.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: Actual data proving Tesla EV's are 8 times less costly to operate than ICE
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2020, 04:10:39 am »
I'm in the San Francisco Bay Area.  No way you can do it under 5 minutes unless you are not paying for the gas.  We are talking from the time you stop and open the car door, until you are back in the car, door closed ready to get back on our California freeways to speed down the highway at 10 mph along with the millions of others doing the same things.

Most of the pumps here do not accept ApplePay/GooglePay or have contactless card readers.  You have to insert the card, wait.  Then enter your zip code, wait.  Next you enter your rewards number (depending on where you are buying your gas).  Wait again.  Select the grade of gas wait, stick the nozzle in the car and fill the tank.  My vehicle tank size is 21 gallons, that's 80 liters for the rest of the world.  Just looked this up, gas pumps in the US are limited to 10 gallons per minute.   So I guess you are right, time to fill just the tank would be just over 2 minutes......

Never mind. 

Maybe I spend the next 5 minutes trying to get the gas cap on.  Sure seems like more than 5 minutes to me when I get gas.

Next time I get gas, I'm going to time it.  From the time I open the door and get out, until the time I get back in the car.

You do realize in Oregon I know it takes longer.....  Anyone know why?
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Actual data proving Tesla EV's are 8 times less costly to operate than ICE
« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2020, 04:54:01 am »
I just filled up with a full tank, 36L.
Timer it with a stopwatch. 3min and 2 seconds from when I pulled up to when I drove off. That included getting the wash can to rinse a bit of overspill, walking inside to pay, no line. Wasn't rushing.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: Actual data proving Tesla EV's are 8 times less costly to operate than ICE
« Reply #31 on: September 08, 2020, 05:45:36 am »
Okay so maybe I was wrong.  Just means a Tesla would take 16 mins and 58 seconds to get to 80% charge.  So is waiting 17 minutes more to fuel reason enough not to buy an EV with fast charge?


 

Offline Bud

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Re: Actual data proving Tesla EV's are 8 times less costly to operate than ICE
« Reply #32 on: September 08, 2020, 06:05:44 am »
I just filled up with a full tank, 36L.
Timer it with a stopwatch. 3min and 2 seconds from when I pulled up to when I drove off. That included getting the wash can to rinse a bit of overspill, walking inside to pay, no line. Wasn't rushing.
Charging a Tesla also incudes pulling up, connecting/disconnecting the source, buying cigarettes and driving off. Only the actual refueling should count.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Actual data proving Tesla EV's are 8 times less costly to operate than ICE
« Reply #33 on: September 08, 2020, 06:07:30 am »
I just filled up with a full tank, 36L.
Timer it with a stopwatch. 3min and 2 seconds from when I pulled up to when I drove off. That included getting the wash can to rinse a bit of overspill, walking inside to pay, no line. Wasn't rushing.
Charging a Tesla also incudes pulling up, connecting/disconnecting the source, buying cigarettes and driving off. Only the actual refueling should count.

In that case I estimate about 1min 30sec for 500km worth of fuel.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Actual data proving Tesla EV's are 8 times less costly to operate than ICE
« Reply #34 on: September 08, 2020, 06:17:07 am »
Okay so maybe I was wrong.  Just means a Tesla would take 16 mins and 58 seconds to get to 80% charge.  So is waiting 17 minutes more to fuel reason enough not to buy an EV with fast charge?

For some people, yes. You also have to factor in availability. Not every location has superchargers, and some share maximum capacity.
Power infrastructure aside, if everyone switched to EV's overnight then it would be chaos to fill up anywhere but home.
Not all EV's are equal on fast charge times either, not by a long shot.
The IONIQ I'm looking at getting takes 40min @50kW to get to 80% for example. 30-40min for the LEAF, once again to 80%.
Tesla quote 30min for 270km for the model 3. I don't know where you get your 17min from.

If you are looking at eating up the miles on a road trip then EV's are very far away from ICE cars.


 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Actual data proving Tesla EV's are 8 times less costly to operate than ICE
« Reply #35 on: September 08, 2020, 07:10:36 am »
Doug, EV are good and arguably a better economic value at this point on time.  Likely to be better over time as EV costs go down and ICE costs go up.  So there is no need to use phony estimates to make ICE look bad or EV to look better.

EV fueling time is attractive when you can charge at home overnight.  It does take a bit of time daily hooking it up and disconnecting it.  My guess would be a little under a minute for able bodies people with a reasonably convenient setup.  A bit less if you push, a bit more for those with their hands full and not yet fully awake.  So around five minutes a week for most commuters.  But that isn't the only use case.

For all day drivers (Uber, DealDash and cross country types) fueling time should include time off route to get to fueling facility which is longer for EV at the moment because of lower charge station density.  I wouldn't try to assign a value, it depends heavily on route and location, but I am sure of the sign.

I don't yet own an EV so don't know if every charging station has a fast internet connection so that billing is rapid.  I know that this process varies greatly at gas stations, from perhaps fifteen seconds at stations which have upgraded to chip readers and have fast internet, up to times like you mention for remote locations with ancient pumps and 56kbaud connection speed.

Pumping the gas takes a few minutes, a time I spend removing bugs from the windows everyplace but Oregon where I live.  If you spend minutes topping off the tank it is a personal problem and you are ignoring the admonitions of the state of California who ask you not to do that to minimize vapor emissions and spills.   (EVs also have a need for bug removal, and plenty of time to do it, though charging stations I have seen hide the wash bucket and squeegee pretty well).

The only times I have had fifteen to twenty minute stops for fuel have been at Costco in big cities where there are often lines at the pumps.  Fortunately I don't live there, so that isn't my use case either.
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Actual data proving Tesla EV's are 8 times less costly to operate than ICE
« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2020, 10:25:00 am »
I just filled up with a full tank, 36L.
Timer it with a stopwatch. 3min and 2 seconds from when I pulled up to when I drove off. That included getting the wash can to rinse a bit of overspill, walking inside to pay, no line. Wasn't rushing.
Charging a Tesla also incudes pulling up, connecting/disconnecting the source, buying cigarettes and driving off. Only the actual refueling should count.

I'm surprised nobody has picked up on that one yet - The ability to safely smoke a cigarette while 'refuelling' your Tesla!  :-DD
« Last Edit: September 08, 2020, 10:49:01 am by Gyro »
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Actual data proving Tesla EV's are 8 times less costly to operate than ICE
« Reply #37 on: September 08, 2020, 02:20:46 pm »
He is losing business while charging the cars, it takes time.  With an ICE car it only takes a minute or two to refuel.
Only car I know that can be refueled in a minute or two is a FormulaOne or Nascar.  For most it's about 8 to to 15 minutes provided there's no line.

My Toyota Corolla with it's small tank would only take a few minutes tops, even on a slow pump, and you can pay at the pump with credit card if you want.
Flow rates are up to 50L/minute, but I see roughly 30-ish around here. My tank in only like 35L so it's under 2 minutes to fill it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_pump

Not in America.  Are your tanks smaller?  (Because they sized in liters and not gallons?) 
It takes us a minute or more to get or credit card authorized at the pump.  Longer if you are paying with cash or have to present the card to the station agent.  Then it takes almost a minute for the pump to start.   Then you've got about 5 minutes to fill the take and keep topping it off until the gas right to the top of the filler tube.  Then you have to put the cap on hand the pump up and get your change if paid with cash or get your card back if it had to be presented. 

And all of this is considering there is no line.  American will line-up to pay $0.10 less per gallon of gas at the station across the street and then pay the credit card surcharge of $0.10 gallon making the cost the same as the station across the street.  Aren't we smart?

I haven't timed it with a stop watch, but my experience in America is that it takes around 5 - 7 minutes to do a "pit stop" at my favourite gas station, usually 10 - 12 gallons.  I use a gas station own-brand card at the pump, which gives me the cash price. 

Regarding the original post:  The use case where fuel costs are the main part of the business is the best possible case for an EV.   However, consider that most people don't drive their cars quite that much. 

Mathematically, if you are a low annual miles driver (or, if you own more than one car, so each car gets relatively less miles on it), the original cost of the vehicle matters much more than the fuel economy, since you simply don't use enough fuel for the savings of an EV to matter much in the overall picture.

 
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Offline fourfathom

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Re: Actual data proving Tesla EV's are 8 times less costly to operate than ICE
« Reply #38 on: September 08, 2020, 02:21:03 pm »
I'm surprised nobody has picked up on that one yet - The ability to safely smoke a cigarette while 'refuelling' your Tesla!  :-DD

Actual data proving that EVs increase your chance of getting lung cancer.
 
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Offline maginnovision

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Re: Actual data proving Tesla EV's are 8 times less costly to operate than ICE
« Reply #39 on: September 08, 2020, 03:36:24 pm »
Haha, I took up smoking because I just didn't know what to do with all my free time! Or as I read on all the tesla sites... I gained 50 lbs because I always stop and get snacks. On another note... Does everyone actually eat in their cars? I've never done this so not sure why I'd start with such an expensive car.
 

Offline fourfathom

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Re: Actual data proving Tesla EV's are 8 times less costly to operate than ICE
« Reply #40 on: September 08, 2020, 04:48:07 pm »
Haha, I took up smoking because I just didn't know what to do with all my free time! Or as I read on all the tesla sites... I gained 50 lbs because I always stop and get snacks. On another note... Does everyone actually eat in their cars? I've never done this so not sure why I'd start with such an expensive car.

I make a round trip drive about once a month -- 900 miles south, then back north again -- sometimes twice a month.  Often I will drive non-stop (except for gas and food), and get from one end to the other in about 17 hours.  I definitely eat in my car, usually packing a small cooler but sometimes making a *quick* stop at a drive-through.

This 900-mile drive, mostly up and down US Interstate #5, is probably the main reason that I don't seriously consider getting an EV.  I don't want to have to find a fast-charge station, and I really don't want to wait an extra half-hour to charge the battery.
 
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Offline DougSpindler

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Re: Actual data proving Tesla EV's are 8 times less costly to operate than ICE
« Reply #41 on: September 08, 2020, 05:03:14 pm »
He is losing business while charging the cars, it takes time.  With an ICE car it only takes a minute or two to refuel.
Only car I know that can be refueled in a minute or two is a FormulaOne or Nascar.  For most it's about 8 to to 15 minutes provided there's no line.

My Toyota Corolla with it's small tank would only take a few minutes tops, even on a slow pump, and you can pay at the pump with credit card if you want.
Flow rates are up to 50L/minute, but I see roughly 30-ish around here. My tank in only like 35L so it's under 2 minutes to fill it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_pump

Not in America.  Are your tanks smaller?  (Because they sized in liters and not gallons?) 
It takes us a minute or more to get or credit card authorized at the pump.  Longer if you are paying with cash or have to present the card to the station agent.  Then it takes almost a minute for the pump to start.   Then you've got about 5 minutes to fill the take and keep topping it off until the gas right to the top of the filler tube.  Then you have to put the cap on hand the pump up and get your change if paid with cash or get your card back if it had to be presented. 

And all of this is considering there is no line.  American will line-up to pay $0.10 less per gallon of gas at the station across the street and then pay the credit card surcharge of $0.10 gallon making the cost the same as the station across the street.  Aren't we smart?

I haven't timed it with a stop watch, but my experience in America is that it takes around 5 - 7 minutes to do a "pit stop" at my favourite gas station, usually 10 - 12 gallons.  I use a gas station own-brand card at the pump, which gives me the cash price. 

Regarding the original post:  The use case where fuel costs are the main part of the business is the best possible case for an EV.   However, consider that most people don't drive their cars quite that much. 

Mathematically, if you are a low annual miles driver (or, if you own more than one car, so each car gets relatively less miles on it), the original cost of the vehicle matters much more than the fuel economy, since you simply don't use enough fuel for the savings of an EV to matter much in the overall picture.


Thanks for providing a data point closer to my claim.

Looks like I'm mistaken on the fill-up/charge time with a Tesla super charger.  I was repeating the 20 minute time someone in the forums posted a while back.  Just looked up the times and it's 20 minutes for 50% charge and 45 mins for 80%.  That sucks.

There was a Tesla owner saying he could drive from San Francisco to LA and it took him only 20 mins to get super charged.  I guess he left out the fact he was only getting a 50% charge.

Having to wait 40 mins to get an 80% charge just doesn't compare to 5 minutes to fill a tank with 100% liquid hydro-carbon fuel.



 







 

Offline f4eru

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Re: Actual data proving Tesla EV's are 8 times less costly to operate than ICE
« Reply #42 on: September 08, 2020, 05:09:46 pm »
Quote
Tesla quote 30min for 270km for the model 3. I don't know where you get your 17min from.

From my experience, if not going to eat close by, my supercharging sessions are 15-25 min (SR+ on CCS V2 superchargers), because it often makes more sense to stop at 60-70% than to wait for 80 or 90%. At least with the parameters we have in Europe (lots of superchargers, colder temperatures)

I also regularly arrive with 5% charge at a supercharger. No risk of arriving to 0, you can always slow down on the last kilometers if needed ( or stay behind a truck :)
« Last Edit: September 08, 2020, 05:15:58 pm by f4eru »
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: Actual data proving Tesla EV's are 8 times less costly to operate than ICE
« Reply #43 on: September 08, 2020, 05:15:02 pm »
Quote
Tesla quote 30min for 270km for the model 3. I don't know where you get your 17min from.

From my experience, if not going to eat close by, my supercharging sessions are 15-25 min (SR+ on CCS V2 superchargers), because it makes more sense to stop at 60-70% than to wait for 80 or 90%. At least with the parameters we have in Europe (lots of superchargers, colder temperatures)

I'm confused.  You have a Tesla, correct?  When you need a charge doesn't it take 20 mins to get to 50% charge, and 40 mins to get to 80%?   That's what I just found by Googling.
 

Offline f4eru

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Re: Actual data proving Tesla EV's are 8 times less costly to operate than ICE
« Reply #44 on: September 08, 2020, 05:17:01 pm »
superchargers are getting faster those days.
The SR+ can accept up to 150kW, for a 50 kW battery -> 20 min to charge full if there was no dropping off, so approx 10 min to 50% (but it's not yet that good in practice)

Also, please note : SR+ was locked to 100kW until end of 2019 or so, so many curves yyou google are obsolete.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2020, 05:26:37 pm by f4eru »
 
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Offline f4eru

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Re: Actual data proving Tesla EV's are 8 times less costly to operate than ICE
« Reply #45 on: September 08, 2020, 05:32:15 pm »
Today's figures for the SR+:


5 -> 70 %: 18 min 48 s
<- this is why I often stop at 70% if that fits my trip.
5 ->  80 %: 24 min 42 s




« Last Edit: September 08, 2020, 05:36:03 pm by f4eru »
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Actual data proving Tesla EV's are 8 times less costly to operate than ICE
« Reply #46 on: September 08, 2020, 05:55:17 pm »
He is losing business while charging the cars, it takes time.  With an ICE car it only takes a minute or two to refuel.
Only car I know that can be refueled in a minute or two is a FormulaOne or Nascar.  For most it's about 8 to to 15 minutes provided there's no line.

My Toyota Corolla with it's small tank would only take a few minutes tops, even on a slow pump, and you can pay at the pump with credit card if you want.
Flow rates are up to 50L/minute, but I see roughly 30-ish around here. My tank in only like 35L so it's under 2 minutes to fill it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_pump

Not in America.  Are your tanks smaller?  (Because they sized in liters and not gallons?) 
It takes us a minute or more to get or credit card authorized at the pump.  Longer if you are paying with cash or have to present the card to the station agent.  Then it takes almost a minute for the pump to start.   Then you've got about 5 minutes to fill the take and keep topping it off until the gas right to the top of the filler tube.  Then you have to put the cap on hand the pump up and get your change if paid with cash or get your card back if it had to be presented. 

And all of this is considering there is no line.  American will line-up to pay $0.10 less per gallon of gas at the station across the street and then pay the credit card surcharge of $0.10 gallon making the cost the same as the station across the street.  Aren't we smart?

I haven't timed it with a stop watch, but my experience in America is that it takes around 5 - 7 minutes to do a "pit stop" at my favourite gas station, usually 10 - 12 gallons.  I use a gas station own-brand card at the pump, which gives me the cash price. 

Regarding the original post:  The use case where fuel costs are the main part of the business is the best possible case for an EV.   However, consider that most people don't drive their cars quite that much. 

Mathematically, if you are a low annual miles driver (or, if you own more than one car, so each car gets relatively less miles on it), the original cost of the vehicle matters much more than the fuel economy, since you simply don't use enough fuel for the savings of an EV to matter much in the overall picture.


Thanks for providing a data point closer to my claim.

Looks like I'm mistaken on the fill-up/charge time with a Tesla super charger.  I was repeating the 20 minute time someone in the forums posted a while back.  Just looked up the times and it's 20 minutes for 50% charge and 45 mins for 80%.  That sucks.

There was a Tesla owner saying he could drive from San Francisco to LA and it took him only 20 mins to get super charged.  I guess he left out the fact he was only getting a 50% charge.

Having to wait 40 mins to get an 80% charge just doesn't compare to 5 minutes to fill a tank with 100% liquid hydro-carbon fuel.

Now you've piqued my interest, I'm going to time the next visit!  :D
 

Offline Nusa

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Re: Actual data proving Tesla EV's are 8 times less costly to operate than ICE
« Reply #47 on: September 08, 2020, 07:42:40 pm »
https://insideevs.com/reviews/350883/tesla-model-s-review-450000-miles/

Telsa made a warranty decision for publicity value, namely offering the 8-year infinite battery warranty, which Tesloop took advantage of to get multiple battery replacements as they wore them out in their high-use scenario. Tesla has now corrected that mistake. Newer production Teslas, including X, S, and model 3's, all have 8-year mileage limited warranties, which throws some major avoided expenses back into future cost analysis.
https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-warranty

Road taxes -- yes, it's been a free ride there for EV's, but that is changing with new EV fees collected at registration in some states to replace lost revenue. Expect most of the other states to follow suit eventually. So far they seem to be flat fees, rather than mileage based ones, which could be a disincentive to low-mile drivers.
https://www.foxbusiness.com/money/california-adds-electric-vehicle-fees-up-to-175

That said, EV's are probably excellent choices for a lot of high-use situations, where the cost of fuel becomes an key part of the financial model. For the average consumer, that math doesn't work so well...the difference between the (cost of purchase - resale price) / years of ownership tends to override all other factors, including fuel.

Me personally, I can't justify it. I simply don't do enough driving, even pre-covid, filling up every 4-5 weeks, plus one 1500 mile road trip per year. And during covid...I'm filling up about every 3 months.

Pit stop time is a laughable measure. Highway mileage for a 2017 Dodge Grand Caravan is 28 mpg with a 20 gallon tank, which means about 500 miles (800 km) practical range. If I'm stopping for fuel, I really need a pit stop for bathroom and food as well...the time spent not driving is actually welcome at that point.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2020, 07:47:43 pm by Nusa »
 

Offline ahbushnell

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Re: Actual data proving Tesla EV's are 8 times less costly to operate than ICE
« Reply #48 on: September 08, 2020, 07:59:06 pm »


Them your system sucks. Last time I was in the US you had to go into the station first and give the attendant your credit card or get it authorised or something and then go back outside to fill up. Completely stupid system.

It must have been awhile since  you were here.  I just put in the card to the pump, put in my zip code and start pumping. 
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: Actual data proving Tesla EV's are 8 times less costly to operate than ICE
« Reply #49 on: September 08, 2020, 08:03:27 pm »


Them your system sucks. Last time I was in the US you had to go into the station first and give the attendant your credit card or get it authorised or something and then go back outside to fill up. Completely stupid system.

It must have been awhile since  you were here.  I just put in the card to the pump, put in my zip code and start pumping.

No line?  You must not be at Costco.  No rewards number?  One of the last times I filled up my rewards card reduced the prices from just about $4.00/gal to $0.75.

« Last Edit: September 08, 2020, 08:11:30 pm by DougSpindler »
 


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