Anyone have a wind turbine in a residential area, how well does it work?

[Red Squirrel]

I've been toying with the idea of getting a prebuilt or building a wind turbine, something in the 1-2kw range.  I live in a somewhat dense neighborhood so there are trees and other obstructions and possibly bylaws on how tall something can be.  I see people with radio towers so I think the laws are probably reasonable and I could probably do like 50-100feet which would get me over the roof tops but not all the trees.   Obviously these are all details I'd have to find out.   

Just wondering if anyone has experimented with wind turbines in such environment, and how well did it work?  We don't get a lot of wind here, but we do get some.  We probably get more wind than we get sun.  I'm in Northern Ontario if curious.   There's a small turbine (2kw or so I believe) at the recreation lake here and I see it spinning most of the time even in relatively low winds.   My goal is to eventually go solar and wind, as both combined could potentially be enough to go off grid or at least put a decent dent in the hydro bill.   I imagine the rating of a turbine is also if it's practically a hurricane, so I'd expect to get maybe half or less of it's actual rating.   Also, is VAWT better for a potentially turbulent residential environment or is horizontal still better? 

[tautech]

I can't think of anything else other that repeated shooting or scrambling bike to quickly get you offside with your neighbors.
In a rural setting maybe although one that was 1 km away from me powering a electric stock fence could easily be heard for a few km howling in strong winds.
Local bylaws may prevent wind turbine installation on account of noise whereas antennae make little unless wind is high and their noise is mostly less than the wind noise anyway.
Best advice would be to get noise specs of any turbine you wish to use, pics too and installation proposal details and spend some time at your local authority to check you'll be complying with their bylaws.

[Seekonk]

Those things are death traps.  I'm on a RE site and I've seen many that have lost blades.

[dr.diesel]

How much dirt do you own?  A 100' self supporting tower capable of holding a 2kw turbine would probably cost $30k.  Do you have the room for a guyed tower?

[Red Squirrel]

I don't know the exact dimensions but I don't think I'd have room for guyed tower and it would probably end up just as expensive given the need for strong concrete footings for each cable, as opposed to just one bigger footing.  I'd probably go with a tubular one, basically like the giant ones you see in big cities, except smaller.  I was looking at them real quick and some can be had for about 20k.  If I was to go for building something custom I'd probably look at using something similar to what they'd use for a large parking lot lamp post.  No idea where a civilian would buy something like that though.  I'm just kind of considerating this project, did not get into details yet. May not happen.   I imagine a few grand for the cement footing.  I'd also need the tower to be designed in a way that I can climb it, as I'd need to do maintenance on the turbine. Greasing bearings etc.

Also what kind of noise do they actually produce?  I always figured they'd be pretty quiet as it's moving relatively slow.  I guess the gear box would make some noise as it speeds up for the alternator?

I don't have nowhere near the money saved up for such a project so mostly just something I'd like to do in the far future.  I'd probably go solar first, or do both at same time as part of a bigger project.   Hydro prices are increasing at an alarming rate, so I need to figure something out.  I could even put it on credit.  I'd have to do the math and figure out what's best.  I just know that at some point I won't be able to actually afford to pay for electricity anymore.  It may take 10-15 years but that point will eventually hit.

[CatalinaWOW]

There are wind maps available which will show you the average wind speed in your area, often broken down by month.  You can use these to figure out how much potential wind power there is in your area with a turbine of given diameter.

The power availability calculators/tables out there either assume you are out of the ground turbulence region, or show a huge penalty in recoverable power for low hight mountings.  Ideally you want to be something like twice the hight of the variable objects around you.  (If you are in a field of trees all 100 feet tall you might need to be only 120 feet up, but if you have open ground and trees at all hights between 0 and 100 feet you would want a 200 foot tower.).

Noise is highly dependent on blade and turbine design, but many are very loud and annoying, and just like radio towers you will be blamed for every weird pet death, electronic failure, internet dropout and whatever else you can think of.

[nowlan]

Wind Turbines need smooth wind, so need a clearing away from obstructions such as trees houses etc. Can't find the rule of thumb at the moment, but they are generally crap in residential areas. Height vs surroundings.

You would be better off spending money on an anemometer to do a site survey, and see how much wind, and how regular it is throughout the year, before committing to buying anything. Ideally something that logs, so you can monitor for a few months and analyze.

[Kleinstein]

Wind turbines are somewhat noisy, so the neighbors and the regulations may not like them in residential areas. Also wind is only producing power for something like 50% of the time - so you need a backup / storage too.

Usually larger turbines get a little more cost efficient. The large ones are just competitive when they can use all there power. So a small 2 KW turbine only used when electricity is needed can not compete with the electricity price in a area where the grid is already there, unless you have a very windy place, like on a mountain top or at the coast.

[Red Squirrel]

50% is better than the ~10% I'd get with solar. (our winters are very long and days are very short during that time)  Though I would definitely need to take some kind of wind assessment and find out about bylaws and all that stuff.  We barely get any sun here and our days are very short in winter.   I could probably do solar and just have a really big battery bank.  Maybe it makes more sense to take the 20-30k it would probably cost to put in a turbine, and put it in solar and batteries.    Solar has gotten pretty cheap, so it's definitely something I should start saving up on, it would still work well in summer, just not that great in winter.  Would also need to figure out an automated system to push snow off.  But I could always just get in the habit of doing it each morning.

[CatalinaWOW]

Maybe the best answer is that I have seen residential wind turbines in many rural places in my travels in North America.  I have seen a total of two in urban/suburban situations, and both were defunct.  A wind turbine sticks out like a sore thumb so I suspect if they were there I would have seen them.   I knew the owner of one of the two.  It was defunct when he purchased the property, and he was never sufficiently motivated to perform required repairs on the blades.  He had spoken to neighbors who were glad he wasn't restoring it.  Apparently that one was pretty noisy.  I don't know the story on the other.  I suspect there is a message in these observations.

[zapta]

Anyone have a wind turbine in a residential area, how well does it work?

Check this https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0077QPPGO

Not fun.

[Silveruser]

Here is a start on some regs, it's a few years old.  I'd start with local bylaws these might limit size, I'm pretty sure there are limits here (NS) that only permit small turbines for residential use.

http://www.csagroup.org/documents/codes-and-standards/standards/energy/CSAGuidetoCanadianWindTurbineCodes.pdf

George

[mtdoc]

From what I've learned from those who live off grid with wind (usually combined with PV) power - small scale wind can be viable but the locations were it is are limited.

1. You need regular sustained winds - not just occasional gusty conditions.

2. Your turbine needs to be located well above any surrounding structures or trees. Generally not true in residential areas. How high a tower can you build?

3. Wind turbines are mechanical beasts that require regular maintenance - i.e. the tower has to be climbed and the turbine regularly taken down for routine maintenance.

Bottom line -for residential areas - rooftop PV is the only RE that generally makes any sense.

[CJay]

Seem to remember seeing a report that claimed wind turbines in urban areas were a waste of time for a good variety of reasons.

It would have related to a European definition of urban which may not be the same as a Canadian definition and the turbines they were talking about were at the bottom end of your range but the results were pretty damning.

Basically the turbines had to work at peak efficiency for a significantly greater percentage of time than was ever possible due to the effects of the urban environment making the available wind 'dirty'.

Personally, I think Solar would be the way to go unless you have space for *lots* of turbine.

[fourtytwo]

If your in the UK like me your probably in trouble straight away due to the strict rules governing height vs distance from boundaries. I had a so called 500W unit up about 8 metres but it was nowhere near high enough to get into clean air, given it was only about 10M from the house I realized it didnt have a chance, spent most of its time turning around its axis confused as to where the wind was coming from and never generated more than 50W (in gusts), I would say urban is a nono unless you have a LOT of land!
Roger

PS try solar

[Red Squirrel]

Yeah more I read on it seems it would not be worth while.  Though would a VAWT work better in a residential setting?  They are generally way less efficient though.  I do want to look at solar too but problem with that is it would only really work well for a few months of the year, after that, we just don't get enough sun and days are too short, and it would be lot of work to clear snow off every winter morning.  Though I could try to automate that with some kind of mechanical plow system that pushes the snow off. I imagine it will slide off decently as long as it's not wet snow. That stuff is a beast.  Freezing rain would also be a write off for the rest of the winter, good luck trying to take that off without damaging them.   I also don't have much room, I'd have to measure my roof but there's only like one section that would be viable due to no shadows, and I don't think I have room for more than 1-2kw worth.   I MAY be able to put some on the west facing wall though, but in winter I think the shadow of the neighbor's house would hit that.  In summer it does not though. I was outside the other day and realized thta a whole section had full sunlight for a while.

My ultimate goal is to try to go fully off grid, but I don't think it will happen on this property.  Not enough room or resources.   Hydro prices are just getting ridiculous, they have like 5 price hikes planned in the next few months, it's gotten completely out of hand.  The only way to actually save is to go off grid completely as it's the fixed fees where they get you.  Sadly I would not be surprised if it's illegal to go off grid... they know how to get you.  I guess you can just not pay and get disconnected for non payment. You technically still have the service.

[uncle_bob]

Yeah more I read on it seems it would not be worth while.  Though would a VAWT work better in a residential setting?  They are generally way less efficient though.  I do want to look at solar too but problem with that is it would only really work well for a few months of the year, after that, we just don't get enough sun and days are too short, and it would be lot of work to clear snow off every winter morning.  Though I could try to automate that with some kind of mechanical plow system that pushes the snow off. I imagine it will slide off decently as long as it's not wet snow. That stuff is a beast.  Freezing rain would also be a write off for the rest of the winter, good luck trying to take that off without damaging them.   I also don't have much room, I'd have to measure my roof but there's only like one section that would be viable due to no shadows, and I don't think I have room for more than 1-2kw worth.   I MAY be able to put some on the west facing wall though, but in winter I think the shadow of the neighbor's house would hit that.  In summer it does not though. I was outside the other day and realized thta a whole section had full sunlight for a while.

My ultimate goal is to try to go fully off grid, but I don't think it will happen on this property.  Not enough room or resources.   Hydro prices are just getting ridiculous, they have like 5 price hikes planned in the next few months, it's gotten completely out of hand.  The only way to actually save is to go off grid completely as it's the fixed fees where they get you.  Sadly I would not be surprised if it's illegal to go off grid... they know how to get you.  I guess you can just not pay and get disconnected for non payment. You technically still have the service.

Hi

Just about anywhere in the world, the regs will "encourage" you to only erect a tower like structure that is short enough to fall within the boundaries of your lot. That's not just for turbines, but it does apply to them. In this case I'd bet they look at the tip of the blade as the "height" not the supporting tower.

Most urban / suburban areas already have housing on the lots that (effectively) violates this height rule. The assumption is that the house isn't going to tip over. The gotcha is that getting "well above" that clutter aerodynamically ... not so much.

Rules on this stuff generally fall into multiple categories. Municipalities have building codes, so do states / provinces. In some cases the national government gets into the act (think airport approaches). On top of that some places (like the house I am now in) have covenants placed on them that restrict this sort of thing.

Turbines are far from quiet, even more so if they are doing anything useful. They also are not very pretty. The two make it likely the neighbors *will* complain. What ever obscure rules there are, will be dug up. That's all *after* you have invested in the deal. Not a good thing at all.

At least around here, a 50% number for "full output" is a bit optimistic. If I was on the top of a ridge, maybe not. Down where I live, it is well under 30%. That's looking at the amount of time I get full output *plus* the useful output I get when below full output.

I agree with your decision to look at other alternatives.

Bob

[CJay]

50% is better than the ~10% I'd get with solar. (our winters are very long and days are very short during that time)  Though I would definitely need to take some kind of wind assessment and find out about bylaws and all that stuff.  We barely get any sun here and our days are very short in winter.   I could probably do solar and just have a really big battery bank.  Maybe it makes more sense to take the 20-30k it would probably cost to put in a turbine, and put it in solar and batteries.    Solar has gotten pretty cheap, so it's definitely something I should start saving up on, it would still work well in summer, just not that great in winter.  Would also need to figure out an automated system to push snow off.  But I could always just get in the habit of doing it each morning.

Solar doesn't just work in sunlight, it works during daylight hours, albeit at lower power so if there's daylight it will generate electricity.

I believe it's domestic heating which is most energy intensive so it may be worth looking into ground source (which will require power to work) and solar water heating which could also gather useful amounts of heat even in non sunny daylight and you could reduce your reliance on grid power which may make other electricity generation technologies viable.

Of course, it's far better to not lose the heat in the first place so investigate ultra high efficiency insulation as well. There are houses here in the UK that have zero heating costs because they're so well insulated.

This may well not be possible where you are (I',m guessing near or in Arctic circle from your long winter, short days comment) but it's worth spending some time to find out. 

[uncle_bob]

Hi

One basic issue is that if you are under 6 feet of snow 6 months of the year (yes that's a joke) ... you also have a pretty massive energy need for heating. Simply pulling the electricity off of that process may be the easy answer. Exactly how you best do that depends a *lot* on how your heating system works. Oil, gas, and wood each have their own issues when you do this. I'm guessing you don't heat with electricity if you are only looking for 2 KW to go off grid.

Bob

[Kleinstein]

A 50% time fraction for full output would be very optimistic - maybe somewhere on an island or high montain. Inland it's more like 50% of the time to get some power, but 25% of the nominal power on average. With solar it's more like 10% of nominal on average and mayby 20% of the time some useful power.  In both cases less / no power at night - which may be a good thing as there is usually low demand.

The populated part of Canada is not that far north - the UK is not better in that respect, they just have less snow. When it comes to use solar power to work in winter as well, and not just for highest overall output over the year, one needs to mount the panels rather steep, like an 50-60 deg angle. So snow will not accumulate there most of the time.

Anyway as the renewables are not competitive on a large scale, I will not be in a small scale unless you have high costs to build the line to your house, like in a very remote place. Even with high taxes it's hard to impossible to beat the grid if it's already there. So it might be better to reduce the demand.

[Red Squirrel]

50% is better than the ~10% I'd get with solar. (our winters are very long and days are very short during that time)  Though I would definitely need to take some kind of wind assessment and find out about bylaws and all that stuff.  We barely get any sun here and our days are very short in winter.   I could probably do solar and just have a really big battery bank.  Maybe it makes more sense to take the 20-30k it would probably cost to put in a turbine, and put it in solar and batteries.    Solar has gotten pretty cheap, so it's definitely something I should start saving up on, it would still work well in summer, just not that great in winter.  Would also need to figure out an automated system to push snow off.  But I could always just get in the habit of doing it each morning.

Solar doesn't just work in sunlight, it works during daylight hours, albeit at lower power so if there's daylight it will generate electricity.

I believe it's domestic heating which is most energy intensive so it may be worth looking into ground source (which will require power to work) and solar water heating which could also gather useful amounts of heat even in non sunny daylight and you could reduce your reliance on grid power which may make other electricity generation technologies viable.

Of course, it's far better to not lose the heat in the first place so investigate ultra high efficiency insulation as well. There are houses here in the UK that have zero heating costs because they're so well insulated.

This may well not be possible where you are (I',m guessing near or in Arctic circle from your long winter, short days comment) but it's worth spending some time to find out.

Insulation, well vapor barrier to be exact is the main issue with this house, it's old, and any places that I've taken outside wall apart I saw the terrible vapor barrier taping job they did.  So this house leaks a lot.    I'm in Northern Ontario, so in winter the days are super short, so there would not be enough time to charge a decent size battery bank with the 1-2kw that I have room for (MAY be able to squeeze 3). I would also need a very large bank to handle the non sun hours, as idealy I'd want to try to not discharge past 80%.   Though a lot of things could be done to reduce power usage, like removing phantom loads.  Heck, even GFCIs use a half decent amount of power and I could just keep those off, I have not measured one but I noticed they get decently warm, so I'd guess like 5 watts. It all adds up.

I heat with gas, but they want to ban that by 2030, which is completely insane as people who do heat with hydro are spending $400+ per month. I don't think it's going to happen though but the fact that it's on the table kinda has me thinking I need to be prepared.   I really want to look into wood as supplementary heat, but that may have it's own issues legally too.  Would be super cheap though, you can legally cut trees here (until they stop that too...) I think you just need a license that's like $50.  Think they want to ban wood stoves as well though.  Basically our provincial leader sold off the hydro company and her/her buddies owns most of the stocks in it and is doing everything to force people to pay more so they can't be independent, so it's a big political mess.

I think really the only thing I can expect from this house/property is to go partial solar.  It could probably at least bring me into a near zero usage state where I'm only paying the fixed fees on the bill and maybe the occasional night time usage, where the rates are not as high.   I could also use AC in summer for practically free, as solar would work very well in summer as the days are very long.  I'd probably get like 12 hours of actual solar hitting sun, if more. 

[uncle_bob]

Hi

There is another option: Move.

Bob

[mtdoc]

With solar it's more like 10% of nominal on average and mayby 20% of the time some useful power. 

I guess it depends on what you're averaging..

In full sun at "normal" temps - say between 15 and 35 degrees C,  you'll get in the neighborhood of 80% output of STC nominal panel wattage.  Wire run losses, CC, battery losses, inverter losses and you might be at 70% at your loads. 

The populated part of Canada is not that far north - the UK is not better in that respect, they just have less snow. When it comes to use solar power to work in winter as well, and not just for highest overall output over the year, one needs to mount the panels rather steep, like an 50-60 deg angle. So snow will not accumulate there most of the time.

Lots of Canadians living off grid with primarily solar PV as a power source.  Winter means cold temps and higher panel output in full sun (when it's shining) - but shorter days (very short or none depending on latitude - mean much lower power overall.

At northern latitudes, panels can be mounted vertical - for full snow shedding and increased output on sunny days with sunlight reflected off of snow.

[uncle_bob]

With solar it's more like 10% of nominal on average and mayby 20% of the time some useful power. 

I guess it depends on what you're averaging..

In full sun at "normal" temps - say between 15 and 35 degrees C,  you'll get in the neighborhood of 80% output of STC nominal panel wattage.  Wire run losses, CC, battery losses, inverter losses and you might be at 70% at your loads. 

The populated part of Canada is not that far north - the UK is not better in that respect, they just have less snow. When it comes to use solar power to work in winter as well, and not just for highest overall output over the year, one needs to mount the panels rather steep, like an 50-60 deg angle. So snow will not accumulate there most of the time.

Lots of Canadians living off grid with primarily solar PV as a power source.  Winter means cold temps and higher panel output in full sun (when it's shining) - but shorter days (very short or none depending on latitude - mean much lower power overall.

At northern latitudes, panels can be mounted vertical - for full snow shedding and increased output on sunny days with sunlight reflected off of snow.

Hi

If a 2 KW system that at best puts out power part of the time is ok, that is something in the 10 to 20 KWH range. That comes out to a monthly bill of 300 to 600 KWH. If load shifting is used, Ontario Hydro will sell you power for 8.7 cents a KWH. That is a monthly bill (just for the power) of $26 to $43. On peak with no load shifting will take that up about 1.5X. The same load shifting gear that you would need for a solar or wind system effectively will save you $10 or so a month. The inevitable taxes add about 20% to the total plus whatever the connect charges are based on your location. Net result, it's tough to see how more than about $80 is being spent a month. If more is being spent, then either the connection charges are unusually high or more power is being used. If more power it being used then the connect charge does not go away. You need power to keep going. The *only* savings in that case will be the raw power plus taxes on that power.

You will be lucky to put a 2KW turbine up on a 100' rigid tower for under $5K. There are fun things like permits, excavation, (maybe) crane rental, and concrete that add into the basic costs.  At a savings of $26 a month, that will pay back (without interest) in 16 years. If you are very lucky, the system might last 15 to 20 years. You will re-battery the system in significantly less than 20 years.

So what is a reasonable payback? In a business environment anything over 5 years is silly. Some places will not go for 2 years. Two years at $26 a month comes out to $624. Batteries plus an inverter system *might* come in at that price.

Simply put - your grid power in Ontario

http://www.ontario-hydro.com/current-rates

is way to cheap for this to make sense.

Bob

[Red Squirrel]

It's not so much the rates that get you but all the other fees.  So the only way for renewable to be viable is if you can go off grid and disconnect completely.  For example, if you don't use a single kwh in a given month, you will still pay a bit over $100 that month.  Basically they'll just charge more for delivery, debt retirement fee, and all the other crap that gets added.