Author Topic: Australia's Biggest Tesla Battery Storage System at Moorabool is on FIRE  (Read 31537 times)

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Offline nctnico

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They're literally filled with water (inside tubes).
Running water has an infinite heat capacity, a watercooling loop does not.
No. At some point steam will form a barrier between the walls and the water causing the cooling capacity of the water to drop to zero.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline schmitt trigger

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My concern here is that the news agencies, looking for a “hot” story to feed to a public fed up with Covid news, will blow up this event way out of proportion.
 

Offline floobydust

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I did see firefighters watering down adjacent banks to stop the fire from spreading, at the end of the 7News clip. It should fizzle out instead of growing...

Physical construction is like that of a data center, except outdoors and with no.... halon. Oops we're all side by side with no barriers.
I agree, it needs larger aisle ways for a robot fire fighter to go in there, and fire breaks.

News and stock market could care less about this.
 

Offline Gregg

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I’m sure Elon has spin experts working on official responses already.  But he could use this incident to show he really wants to be the good guy --- or not.  :popcorn:
 

Offline nctnico

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Hmm.  You'd have thought that they'd have spaced the containers out a bit more to reduce the risk of fire spreading.   Its a green field site so the cost of say 50% more land would probably be a small part of the total budget . . .
It is more likely farm land which is expensive. Remember having these batteries in a desert makes little sense because the consumers are far away and the temperatures are much higher. However, the closer you move to civilisation and land that is useful for farming, the more expensive the land will be. Another thing to factor in is that you'll need to pave and maintain (get rid of weeds) the area the batteries are on; a compact area is cheaper.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Just found out. The installation uses the Megapack which is a different product to the Powerpack used at Hornsdale.
https://cleantechnica.com/2020/10/05/tesla-megapack-powerpack-powerwall-battery-storage-prices/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Megapack

Megapack:


Powerpack:


Yeah, they look like entirely different designs.
Are there any other Megapack installations?
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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I did see firefighters watering down adjacent banks to stop the fire from spreading, at the end of the 7News clip. It should fizzle out instead of growing...

Yeah, I wouldn't expect it to spread any further than the two banks and that thrid one that looked heat damaged.
Although you'd also have to be concerned for the state of the two banks next to it.
And this photo shows the upper half bank which sparked it looks to have burned out, and it's now the lower half bank that's on fire.
There were also strong winds, and luckily they were blowing away from the other two megapacks what looks like only 50cm away.

Have not seen an update yet though, they let it burn throughout the night.

EDIT: One story in the last hour say "Big Battery continues to burn nearly 24 hours after catching alight"
« Last Edit: July 31, 2021, 12:44:32 am by EEVblog »
 
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Offline sandalcandal

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Copying my response from the cesspit that is YouTube comments.

@EEVblog 10:50 "You see in all the news reports that is their main fear [...] it's gonna spread to the other packs. Not is that only a cost impact, don't want the whole place going up." You did say 17:22 "I'm sure they'll save most of it" It wasn't a part of my earlier more visible posts and I get you're talking about potential for spread and doing commensurate safety/site planning for fire safety but half the video was spent talking about the fire spreading and I felt, particularly after reading comments people were treating it as though the place has already got significant fire spread. Maybe not your intention but the resultant effect IMO.

Maybe a cooling system fail maybe is in some ways "worse" than a statistical cell failure but it is what it is [or turns out to be] and someone is gonna face the music. 16:20 "I think it's just one cell inside...completely come a gutsa" is not a great understanding of how these things are design, built AND tested. Spreading that misunderstanding isn't great either...

The toxic smoke thing also felt like repeating misreports too.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2021, 04:59:48 am by sandalcandal »
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Offline sandalcandal

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Just found out. The installation uses the Megapack which is a different product to the Powerpack used at Hornsdale.
https://cleantechnica.com/2020/10/05/tesla-megapack-powerpack-powerwall-battery-storage-prices/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Megapack

Megapack:
[img]

Powerpack:
[img]

Yeah, they look like entirely different designs.
Are there any other Megapack installations?
The Megapack picture is from this article here https://huddle.today/building-the-utility-of-the-future-with-the-tesla-megapack/ about an installation by Saint John Energy in Saint John, Canada.

Had a quick squiz because I was interested myself too.


Holes Bay in the South of England, up and running since mid-2020 apparently

Also same people doing another one in West Sussex, southern England. [ https://www.energy-storage.news/news/construction-begins-on-fotowatios-second-uk-project-using-tesla-megapack-ba ]

Also doing a first party install in Texas apparently?
https://electrek.co/2021/03/08/tesla-secretive-big-battery-project-texas/
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-03-08/tesla-is-plugging-a-secret-mega-battery-into-the-texas-grid?sref=DWzi38c2

PG&E electric substation in Moss Landing, California. This is the biggest one apparently
https://www.tesmanian.com/blogs/tesmanian-blog/tesla-pg-e-megapack-182-5-mw-battery-storage-installation-makes-stunning-progress

Ventura County, California
https://electrek.co/2021/06/30/tesla-megapacks-power-on-battery-replacing-gas-peaker-plant-california/

Probably a few more. Electrek keeps some decent tabs on Megapack here: https://electrek.co/guides/tesla-megapack/
« Last Edit: July 31, 2021, 02:58:25 am by sandalcandal »
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Naturally you would use mechanical means, probably using pre-layed steel cables. The infrastructure for putting the barriers on the appropriate rails and locating them would be on the periphery of the array. You're talking probably a portable crane and a few winches.
Dave was making it sound like the whole place was going up in flames

Bullshit I was. Anyone who thought that watching and listenting to the video is an utter moron.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Maybe a cooling system fail maybe is in some ways "worse" than a statistical cell failure but it is what it is [or turns out to be] and someone is gonna face the music. 16:20 "I think it's just one cell inside...completely come a gutsa" is not a great understanding of how these things are design, built AND tested. Spreading that misunderstanding isn't great either...

Dude get over it. You seen to have a hard on for proving every minute thing I say wrong.

Quote
The toxic smoke thing also felt like repeating misreports too.

That was the damn report at the time the video was made. And it IS potentially toxic, it's why they issued the alert which they later downgraded, and why they have expert air monitoring person on site. You are demonstrably wrong, the toxic report was an official alert issued by the fire department:
https://news.cfa.vic.gov.au/firefighters-battle-large-battery-fire-near-geelong

Quote
A Watch & Act Warning was issued at 12.53pm for toxic smoke for Batesford, Bell Post Hill, Lovely Banks, Moorabool residents, who were advised to close windows and doors, turn off heating and cooling systems, and bring pets indoors.

It is expected to be downgraded to an Advice message this evening.

FRV initially led the response to the incident, with CFA taking control of the incident at 3.30pm. The two agencies worked in support of one another throughout the incident, and were also supported by Victoria Police, Ambulance Victoria and the EPA.

A scientific officer was on scene conducting atmospheric monitoring, while FRV’s specialist RPAS (drones) unit was also deployed.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5577247/#:~:text=Lithium%2Dion%20battery%20fires%20generate,amounts%20of%20gas%20and%20smoke.&text=Fluoride%20gas%20emission%20can%20pose,large%20Li%2Dion%20battery%20packs.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2021, 04:25:16 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline sandalcandal

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Dude get over it. You seen to have a hard on for proving every minute thing I say wrong.
I'm not trying to rile you up here. I treat other forum members the same way when they post misinformation (A, B, C, D, E, F, there are more many). Don't go thinking you're special and I've got some sort of affixation for you and are holding you in unreasonably high account; this is just the kind of person I am. Call me a nut bag for caring too much about having correct information I guess. I do contribute actual engineering discussion too: 1kW Resonant Converter - Analysis, Design, Build and Validation, Picking a DSP MCU for Power Conversion - Experiences?

IMO Your whole idea of how such systems fail is far from "minutely" off.

FRV initially led the response to the incident, with CFA taking control of the incident at 3.30pm. The two agencies worked in support of one another throughout the incident, and were also supported by Victoria Police, Ambulance Victoria and the EPA.
Point taken, I still feel like action should be taken to correct the initial erroneous reports.
https://www.meaa.org/meaa-media/code-of-ethics/
https://ethics.journalists.org/topics/corrections/
https://www.niemanlab.org/2019/03/can-our-corrections-catch-up-to-our-mistakes-as-they-spread-across-social-media/

Anyway, this is clearly getting more emotional than rational. Even if you don't want to I'm taking break from this conversation.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2021, 05:16:54 am by sandalcandal »
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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FRV initially led the response to the incident, with CFA taking control of the incident at 3.30pm. The two agencies worked in support of one another throughout the incident, and were also supported by Victoria Police, Ambulance Victoria and the EPA.
Point taken, I still feel like action should be taken to correct the initial erroneous reports.

:palm:
Oh FFS, it was NEVER an "erroneous report", it was an OFFICAL warning issued by the fire department, and rightfully picked and disseminated by the local media.
It was later downgraded, presuably after the atmospheric testing they were doing on site.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Don't go thinking you're special and I've got some sort of affixation for you

Ditto.
And I LOL'd at your "Dave pinned my comment because he knows who I am" comment.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2021, 05:06:16 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline sandalcandal

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Don't go thinking you're special and I've got some sort of affixation for you

Ditto.
And I LOL'd at your "Dave pinned my comment because he knows who I am" comment.
Easiest (most directly apparent) way to try cut through the crap in youtube comments. Pretty cringe in retrospect.  :palm:
« Last Edit: July 31, 2021, 05:12:11 am by sandalcandal »
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Offline floobydust

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I also noticed the new containers arriving on site and then thought how the hell are they going to get in there to install them?
It really looks like no room for a vehicle, crane or lift to grab and move a container  :palm:  that's engineering
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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I also noticed the new containers arriving on site and then thought how the hell are they going to get in there to install them?
It really looks like no room for a vehicle, crane or lift to grab and move a container  :palm:  that's engineering

They have a large crane onsite that looks like it can reach acros the entire four columns.
So they build four columns at once and then move the crane, and then another four etc.
So the entire layout would be dictacted by the crane reach and access.
Would also be why the cables are underground, so the crane can get around later through the matrix and replace modules.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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According to this, Neoen was awarded cheap finance for this from the Victorian government, so kinda-sorta some government money involved here.

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/fire-breaks-out-tesla-australia-mega-battery-during-testing-2021-07-30/
 

Offline wilfred

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Hmm.  You'd have thought that they'd have spaced the containers out a bit more to reduce the risk of fire spreading.   Its a green field site so the cost of say 50% more land would probably be a small part of the total budget . . .
It is more likely farm land which is expensive. Remember having these batteries in a desert makes little sense because the consumers are far away and the temperatures are much higher. However, the closer you move to civilisation and land that is useful for farming, the more expensive the land will be. Another thing to factor in is that you'll need to pave and maintain (get rid of weeds) the area the batteries are on; a compact area is cheaper.

There are farms out there but not much. It is pretty close to being outer suburban Geelong but it isn't there yet. There are High Voltage transmission lines running through which is obviously why they built it there.

https://www.google.com/maps/@-38.0373953,144.2996623,1733m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en-US

And for the movie trivia buffs Anakie Rd is a filming location for the original Mad Max film. Only they showed a sign (1:45 in the link) showing roads to Anarchy and Bedlam.

 

Offline nctnico

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Hmm.  You'd have thought that they'd have spaced the containers out a bit more to reduce the risk of fire spreading.   Its a green field site so the cost of say 50% more land would probably be a small part of the total budget . . .
It is more likely farm land which is expensive. Remember having these batteries in a desert makes little sense because the consumers are far away and the temperatures are much higher. However, the closer you move to civilisation and land that is useful for farming, the more expensive the land will be. Another thing to factor in is that you'll need to pave and maintain (get rid of weeds) the area the batteries are on; a compact area is cheaper.

There are farms out there but not much. It is pretty close to being outer suburban Geelong but it isn't there yet. There are High Voltage transmission lines running through which is obviously why they built it there.
Looking at Google maps the rectangles in the landscape are a dead giveaway that this is farm land. The number of farms doesn't matter; a single farm can work on a huge piece of land.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Ian.M

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Apparently the battery covers about five hectares of land.    Tesla Megapacks have a unit price in larger installations of approx. 1M USD per pack (so approx. 1.3M AUD).  The recent record price for farmland in Victoria:
Quote from: ABC News
In March, a 179-hectare (442-acre) block of land in western Victoria sold for $23,588 a hectare ($9,550 an acre), Ararat Elders agent Gary Todd said people were "gobsmacked".
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-02/soaring-market-for-australian-farms/100106246

That's pretty clear that the land the whole battery sits on is at least an order of magnitude cheaper than a single Megapack unit, so is negligible compared to the value of what's sitting on it

I *still* reckon making the aisles as narrow as they did and closely clustering the Megapacks in groups of four was penny wise and pound foolish.  They are lucky to have only totally lost two units with casing damage to the units across the aisle from them.

Edit: currency conversion!
« Last Edit: July 31, 2021, 02:55:31 pm by Ian.M »
 

Online Siwastaja

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Direction of wind seems optimal / lucky, saving the too-close adjacent module (seen on the left on the latest photo on this thread). I agree a few extra meters would be insignificant regarding land cost, but oh well, it haven't spread so maybe it's good enough as it is.

Regarding toxicity of smoke, remember, "normal" smoke is rather toxic. Even when just burning wood or fuels that are supposed to be burned, even in optimal burning conditions, exposure to smoke must be still very limited. Burn plastics at temperatures too low, and it's already orders of magnitude worse. Likely the contribution of the electrolyte is small because the amount of electrolyte is small compared to everything else burning.

Any large fire causes people to be evacuated down wind.
 
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Some technical data on the Tesla Victoria Big Battery fire. It was charging just before the incident.

https://t.co/Bfqdg5dbNh?amp=1
https://t.co/mgeRH2ep53?amp=1
https://t.co/zsnxtci9wo?amp=1
 
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Offline Marco

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I *still* reckon making the aisles as narrow as they did and closely clustering the Megapacks in groups of four was penny wise and pound foolish.  They are lucky to have only totally lost two units with casing damage to the units across the aisle from them.

A lot of things will be getting re-engineered for the next installation I bet, I doubt they even considered this a possible failure mode outside a meteor/lightning strike.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2021, 02:23:11 pm by Marco »
 

Offline sandalcandal

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Regarding toxicity of smoke, remember, "normal" smoke is rather toxic.  [...]
Any large fire causes people to be evacuated down wind.
100% agreed, any smoke is a health hazard but there is a significant difference between a lithium ion battery fire and a PCB (polychlorinated biphenyl) storage facility fire in terms of risk to public health, that's the point I was trying to make in terms of "toxic smoke".

Some technical data on the Tesla Victoria Big Battery fire. It was charging just before the incident.

https://t.co/Bfqdg5dbNh?amp=1
https://t.co/mgeRH2ep53?amp=1
https://t.co/zsnxtci9wo?amp=1
Really nice info, thanks for sharing. Clever investigation of the incident timeline using analysis of NEM data.

« Last Edit: July 31, 2021, 02:57:17 pm by sandalcandal »
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