Author Topic: Australia's Biggest Tesla Battery Storage System at Moorabool is on FIRE  (Read 31538 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ian.M

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12753
Direction of wind seems optimal / lucky, saving the too-close adjacent module (seen on the left on the latest photo on this thread). I agree a few extra meters would be insignificant regarding land cost, but oh well, it haven't spread so maybe it's good enough as it is.

They lost the far too close back to back module which it *did* spread to, so turned a ~$1M USD loss into a $2M + USD loss. 
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 26682
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
I *still* reckon making the aisles as narrow as they did and closely clustering the Megapacks in groups of four was penny wise and pound foolish.  They are lucky to have only totally lost two units with casing damage to the units across the aisle from them.

A lot of things will be getting re-engineered for the next installation I bet, I doubt they even considered this a possible failure mode outside a meteor/lightning strike.
First come up with some numbers about the total number of power packs installed versus the number of fires. I'm quite sure they have considered the risk of fire versus the distance between the units.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2021, 06:16:58 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
The following users thanked this post: ahbushnell

Online Marco

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6687
  • Country: nl
I doubt they have had enough installed for long enough to make an economic estimate purely on statistics. If not they can either decide that maybe this was a fluke and wait a bit to be sure. Or assume there are unknown unknowns and be a little more conservative for the next installation.

A lot of things will be getting re-engineered for the next installation I bet.
 

Offline floobydust

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6899
  • Country: ca
First come up with some numbers about the total number of power packs installed versus the number of fires. I'm quite sure they have considered the risk of fire versus the distance between the units.
Based on those numbers, this is "acceptable risk"?  :-DD
The site's not designed at all for fires of this magnitude. The containers packed too close, there are no fire breaks anywhere with ceramic or brick wall in the rows. Mr Fireman ride your bicycle to get in there.
It's not far from a disaster kind of situation and everybody wants to keep it quiet.

It might not be Tesla that dictates pack spacing and site layout, Neoen maybe- but it's a copycat error that's everywhere now. Nobody planned for this kind of event.

Another issue is damage to the AC bus wiring would take out that entire row and everybody grab a shovel to fix that. In the electric utility industry, above ground cable trays are used for good reason- you can easily replace or add cables as needed, they are completely serviceable, transformer fires included.
Here it's underground and cooked due to the fire, not an easy repair. I don't know the intermediate bus voltage they chose.

The crane looks feeble with tiny counterweights so I can't see it moving a loaded powerpack, and the crane likely just there for construction afterwhich it's taken down.
 

Online Siwastaja

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8090
  • Country: fi
Re: Australia's Biggest Tesla Battery Storage System at Moorabool is on FIRE
« Reply #54 on: August 01, 2021, 06:40:50 am »
Physical separation is excellent fire protection.A brick wall allows reducing this distance.

It's all about optimization of land cost vs. cost of building the brick wall. Where land is cheap, just add 10-15 meters of separation to the units and be done with it. At high land value sites, do 2 meters + brick wall + another 2 meters instead.

Instead of brick, it can be like two layers of steel, hollow inside. Not that expensive, not that difficult to make.
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 37626
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: Australia's Biggest Tesla Battery Storage System at Moorabool is on FIRE
« Reply #55 on: August 01, 2021, 06:56:05 am »
The installation of these megapacks seems quite standardised, this is the Moss landing California facility:



 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 37626
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: Australia's Biggest Tesla Battery Storage System at Moorabool is on FIRE
« Reply #56 on: August 01, 2021, 06:58:42 am »
Another issue is damage to the AC bus wiring would take out that entire row and everybody grab a shovel to fix that. In the electric utility industry, above ground cable trays are used for good reason- you can easily replace or add cables as needed, they are completely serviceable, transformer fires included.
Here it's underground and cooked due to the fire, not an easy repair. I don't know the intermediate bus voltage they chose.

The cables would all be underground to allow for the crane to get in and out later to replace packs and transformers etc.
 

Offline sandalcandal

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 641
  • Country: au
  • MOAR POWA!
Re: Australia's Biggest Tesla Battery Storage System at Moorabool is on FIRE
« Reply #57 on: August 01, 2021, 11:53:34 am »
Second pack taken by fire, probably the unit directly behind the one on fire [initially].
Quote from: CFA Incident Controller and District 7 Acting Assistant Chief Fire Officer Ian Beswicke
There was one battery pack on fire to start with, but it did spread to a second pack that was very close to it.
And fire has subsided to within the enclosure. 3:30pm AEST
Quote
Update at 3.30pm on 1 August, 2021: The fire has subsided significantly. Crews are now doing atmospheric monitoring around the cabinet and will check to see how active the fire is internally behind each of the doors.
https://news.cfa.vic.gov.au/firefighters-battle-large-battery-fire-near-geelong


« Last Edit: August 01, 2021, 11:59:15 am by sandalcandal »
Disclosure: Involved in electric vehicle and energy storage system technologies
 

Offline sandalcandal

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 641
  • Country: au
  • MOAR POWA!
Re: Australia's Biggest Tesla Battery Storage System at Moorabool is on FIRE
« Reply #58 on: August 01, 2021, 11:57:32 am »
Instead of brick, it can be like two layers of steel, hollow inside. Not that expensive, not that difficult to make.
It seems like they have a double wall steel structure or at least an air gap venting path directing heat out the top of the enclosure and some front facing vents towards the wider aisles looking at previously posted images and safety brochure
https://www.greenburghny.com/DocumentCenter/View/7245/PB-20-18-Eagle-Energy---Tesla-Safety-Data-Sheet

Evidently insufficient here. Maybe we'll see more back-to-back separation in future installations.
Disclosure: Involved in electric vehicle and energy storage system technologies
 

Offline sandalcandal

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 641
  • Country: au
  • MOAR POWA!
Re: Australia's Biggest Tesla Battery Storage System at Moorabool is on FIRE
« Reply #59 on: August 01, 2021, 12:06:02 pm »
The installation of these megapacks seems quite standardised, this is the Moss landing California facility:

Separation between back-to-back pairs of packs is much larger than the Moorabool facility image you posted earlier it looks like, unless there's 4 units under each covering?

Can also see water being blasted between packs to the left to protect the other packs.

« Last Edit: August 01, 2021, 12:10:12 pm by sandalcandal »
Disclosure: Involved in electric vehicle and energy storage system technologies
 

Online Siwastaja

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8090
  • Country: fi
Re: Australia's Biggest Tesla Battery Storage System at Moorabool is on FIRE
« Reply #60 on: August 01, 2021, 02:17:02 pm »
Instead of brick, it can be like two layers of steel, hollow inside. Not that expensive, not that difficult to make.
It seems like they have a double wall steel structure or at least an air gap venting path directing heat out the top of the enclosure and some front facing vents towards the wider aisles looking at previously posted images and safety brochure
https://www.greenburghny.com/DocumentCenter/View/7245/PB-20-18-Eagle-Energy---Tesla-Safety-Data-Sheet

Evidently insufficient here. Maybe we'll see more back-to-back separation in future installations.

Of course it's insufficient, given very close spacing (some dozen centimeters gap only). Temperatures inside the burning battery pack are well in excess of 1000 degC, and thermal runaway onset of the adjacent pack is mere 150degC or so, painfully close to ambient temperature. Even if fire is directed upwards, the fire itself radiates enough heat to heat surroundings to 150degC for several meters. I see no other option than significant separation, or less separation coupled with another layer of steel wall, high enough to block the fire rising above the units. Of course that secondary wall could be thermally insulated (mineral wool) but it would need to be large enough to contain the fire and hot gases around the burning unit, forming a "chimney". Probably more expensive than just adding a few meters of extra separation.

Seeing these are installed as pairs, at very least, one such pair should be assumed to be consumed during fire so that it's not a surprise to anyone when that happens.
 

Offline Jan Audio

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 820
  • Country: nl
Re: Australia's Biggest Tesla Battery Storage System at Moorabool is on FIRE
« Reply #61 on: August 01, 2021, 04:05:30 pm »
Did it all burn down ?
*disaster tourist i am.

Why not dig them in ?
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 26682
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Australia's Biggest Tesla Battery Storage System at Moorabool is on FIRE
« Reply #62 on: August 01, 2021, 05:23:35 pm »
Instead of brick, it can be like two layers of steel, hollow inside. Not that expensive, not that difficult to make.
It seems like they have a double wall steel structure or at least an air gap venting path directing heat out the top of the enclosure and some front facing vents towards the wider aisles looking at previously posted images and safety brochure
https://www.greenburghny.com/DocumentCenter/View/7245/PB-20-18-Eagle-Energy---Tesla-Safety-Data-Sheet

Evidently insufficient here. Maybe we'll see more back-to-back separation in future installations.

Of course it's insufficient, given very close spacing (some dozen centimeters gap only). Temperatures inside the burning battery pack are well in excess of 1000 degC, and thermal runaway onset of the adjacent pack is mere 150degC or so, painfully close to ambient temperature. Even if fire is directed upwards, the fire itself radiates enough heat to heat surroundings to 150degC for several meters. I see no other option than significant separation, or less separation coupled with another layer of steel wall, high enough to block the fire rising above the units. Of course that secondary wall could be thermally insulated (mineral wool) but it would need to be large enough to contain the fire and hot gases around the burning unit, forming a "chimney". Probably more expensive than just adding a few meters of extra separation.

Seeing these are installed as pairs, at very least, one such pair should be assumed to be consumed during fire so that it's not a surprise to anyone when that happens.
Still, looking at the pictures in the first post it looks like the unit installed right next to it didn't catch fire like the unit with the flames bursting out. To me it seems as if the electronics caught fire but not the batteries themselves. But this is purely speculated based on the pictures posted in the first post.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8951
  • Country: us
  • "Don't turn it on - Take it apart!"
    • Facebook Page
Re: Australia's Biggest Tesla Battery Storage System at Moorabool is on FIRE
« Reply #63 on: August 01, 2021, 08:06:07 pm »
Of course it's insufficient, given very close spacing (some dozen centimeters gap only). Temperatures inside the burning battery pack are well in excess of 1000 degC, and thermal runaway onset of the adjacent pack is mere 150degC or so, painfully close to ambient temperature. Even if fire is directed upwards, the fire itself radiates enough heat to heat surroundings to 150degC for several meters. I see no other option than significant separation, or less separation coupled with another layer of steel wall, high enough to block the fire rising above the units.
Some fire sprinklers will do the trick. And now maybe they figured out that sprinklers on the outside would be an even better idea.

Or just use a safer, more economical energy storage technology? If it's mostly to run air conditioning, making ice is an order of magnitude or two cheaper than batteries (total system cost, the storage medium is even cheaper than that) and I have never heard of a block of ice catching on fire...
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Offline floobydust

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6899
  • Country: ca
Re: Australia's Biggest Tesla Battery Storage System at Moorabool is on FIRE
« Reply #64 on: August 01, 2021, 10:09:17 pm »



quite the impressive site, so much for Cannery Row.

Are there any Megapack sites up and running yet?
Moss Landing at least has them spaced reasonably, 8 packs per transformer and also has a lift for moving the containers.
Moorabool looks like SF6 switchgear and step-up transformer, every 4 packs. Actually the pics show cable trays along the rows and underneath the cabinets.
Many site drawings show no allowance for fire, it's packed in as close as possible.
 

Offline sandalcandal

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 641
  • Country: au
  • MOAR POWA!
Re: Australia's Biggest Tesla Battery Storage System at Moorabool is on FIRE
« Reply #65 on: August 02, 2021, 12:57:11 pm »
Fire was declared under control 3:05pm today (Monday, 2nd August). CFA said the fire started at around 10:30am Friday 30th July (the source analysing NEM data posted earlier corroborates this). That's 76:35 hr:min from incident start to under control.
Quote
Update at 5.00pm on 2 August, 2021:

The Moorabool incident was declared under control at 3.05pm on Monday 2 August.

Firefighters have successfully completed the operation of opening all doors to the container of the battery, with no sign of fire.

A smaller number of firefighters and fire trucks from CFA will remain on scene for the next 24 hours as a precaution in case of reignition. They will continue taking thermal temperature readings two-hourly to monitor damaged units.
https://news.cfa.vic.gov.au/firefighters-bring-large-battery-fire-near-geelong-under-control
Disclosure: Involved in electric vehicle and energy storage system technologies
 

Online tszaboo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7281
  • Country: nl
  • Current job: ATEX product design
Re: Australia's Biggest Tesla Battery Storage System at Moorabool is on FIRE
« Reply #66 on: August 02, 2021, 01:29:12 pm »
I *still* reckon making the aisles as narrow as they did and closely clustering the Megapacks in groups of four was penny wise and pound foolish.  They are lucky to have only totally lost two units with casing damage to the units across the aisle from them.

A lot of things will be getting re-engineered for the next installation I bet, I doubt they even considered this a possible failure mode outside a meteor/lightning strike.
First come up with some numbers about the total number of power packs installed versus the number of fires. I'm quite sure they have considered the risk of fire versus the distance between the units.

Yeah, I'm sure a company made by Elon made all the necessary calculations, and left enough time for all the engineers to finish their work with due diligence. And they didn't rush some half finished product that was cobbled together from leftover parts from other companies. Didn't rush, because there was no chance in hell, that the company wasn't profitable so "I dont care how it is we have to ship it, otherwise we run out of investors money". Not a chance. I mean they dont have a track record of this at all.*

*This entire post was sponsored by Sarcasm Inc.
 
The following users thanked this post: The Soulman

Offline floobydust

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6899
  • Country: ca
Re: Australia's Biggest Tesla Battery Storage System at Moorabool is on FIRE
« Reply #67 on: August 02, 2021, 08:06:55 pm »
The only tool here was spraying water on adjacent cabinets. This is literally stone age.
"If we try and cool them down it just prolongs the process," the CFA's Assistant Chief Fire Officer Ian Beswicke said."  :o

IMHO the cabinets could not have been spaced any closer together and lithium battery fires happen as we see in the models X and S along with the F/W change (and recent class action lawsuit) over temporarily reducing maximum voltage (capacity).

Why not include site allowances for increased spacing? Because using more real estate costs money. Or it's an error between Tesla and Neoen over who dictates the Megapack spacings.
Maybe create firewall technology or something to put out the fire instead of letting it burn and spew toxic fumes for 3 days.

"more than 30 fire trucks and 150 firefighters" it's literally $1M in labour costs to let it burn down. Is everything sensationalized nowadays, or is this guys working in shifts getting overtime $$$$  8)
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21611
  • Country: us
Re: Australia's Biggest Tesla Battery Storage System at Moorabool is on FIRE
« Reply #68 on: August 02, 2021, 08:15:45 pm »
Or just use a safer, more economical energy storage technology? If it's mostly to run air conditioning, making ice is an order of magnitude or two cheaper than batteries (total system cost, the storage medium is even cheaper than that) and I have never heard of a block of ice catching on fire...

But how do you distribute that ice based air conditioning among the thousands of individual buildings and houses? Drive around and deliver blocks of ice like back in the old days? What do you do with the ice then? Have a separate ice-based air conditioning unit to supplement the electrical one? If the goal is to provide air conditioning for a single large building or complex then ice may make sense.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8951
  • Country: us
  • "Don't turn it on - Take it apart!"
    • Facebook Page
Re: Australia's Biggest Tesla Battery Storage System at Moorabool is on FIRE
« Reply #69 on: August 03, 2021, 12:09:27 am »
But how do you distribute that ice based air conditioning among the thousands of individual buildings and houses? Drive around and deliver blocks of ice like back in the old days? What do you do with the ice then? Have a separate ice-based air conditioning unit to supplement the electrical one? If the goal is to provide air conditioning for a single large building or complex then ice may make sense.
One unit per house, it's trivial to scale as needed.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Online Ed.Kloonk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4000
  • Country: au
  • Cat video aficionado
Re: Australia's Biggest Tesla Battery Storage System at Moorabool is on FIRE
« Reply #70 on: August 03, 2021, 01:34:01 am »
Did it all burn down ?
*disaster tourist i am.

Why not dig them in ?

The media here is either ignoring it or the ones who are running the story have to go full retard.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/02/tesla-big-battery-fire-in-victoria-burns-into-day-three

Quote
A large blaze at Victoria’s “big battery” project has been brought under control by firefighters after burning for more than three days, allowing investigators to begin examining the site.

A Tesla battery bank caught fire while it was being set up in Moorabool on Friday morning, and then spread to a second battery.

The fire burned throughout the weekend and into a fourth day, before it was declared under control just after 3pm on Monday.

Fire crews will remain at the site for the next 24 hours “as a precaution in case of reignition” and will take temperature readings every two hours, the Country Fire Authority said.
iratus parum formica
 

Online trobbins

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 751
  • Country: au
Re: Australia's Biggest Tesla Battery Storage System at Moorabool is on FIRE
« Reply #71 on: August 03, 2021, 04:09:14 am »
There is no technical information to support more news, and I'd anticipate no new photos from initial site inspections (unless they are leaked), so all we are left with is 60+ posts here with most trying to vent their opinions and speculate what could have been done better.

Nobody yet knows what the root cause was, or whether mitigating processes had a fault, or whether product or module or part changes could result that would avoid this in the future, or .....
 
The following users thanked this post: sandalcandal

Online Berni

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4911
  • Country: si
Re: Australia's Biggest Tesla Battery Storage System at Moorabool is on FIRE
« Reply #72 on: August 03, 2021, 05:11:52 am »
But how do you distribute that ice based air conditioning among the thousands of individual buildings and houses? Drive around and deliver blocks of ice like back in the old days? What do you do with the ice then? Have a separate ice-based air conditioning unit to supplement the electrical one? If the goal is to provide air conditioning for a single large building or complex then ice may make sense.

Yep you use an air conditioner to cool a block of ice somewhere in your basement. Have the air conditioner run on command from the grid when there is cheep excess power available. Then when the peak of the day heat comes you pump antifreeze from coils inside the ice into a regular air conditioner wall unit.

This is effectively the same thing as if you had a battery that charged up at night and then powered the air conditioner during the day. But imagine how big of a pile of lithium batteries it would take to make that happen. Now imagine how big of a battery it would take to do this for 10 000 homes, the result is something like these giant battery storage systems. Except that blocks of ice don't catch fire even if you try to set one on fire.

Sure you might be hard pressed to sell this system in Norway. But some of the well populated hot places like Texas, California, Florida....etc that run air conditioners for most of the year could really benefit from it. But the power companies need to get on board and pass a good chunk of the savings down to the costumer so that such a system is a sensible way of saving you money to pay for the extra trouble and cost of installing this thing.

EDIT: And i know this is missing the benefit of a giant battery storage system of being able to pump huge peak powers back into the grid on the drop of a hat. So there is still reason to have these things, but much fewer and smaller installations would do the job if it was helped out by other storage.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2021, 05:15:00 am by Berni »
 

Offline floobydust

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6899
  • Country: ca
Re: Australia's Biggest Tesla Battery Storage System at Moorabool is on FIRE
« Reply #73 on: August 03, 2021, 05:17:05 am »
In the utility industry here, 240kV up substations and equipment it is mandated to have GPS-sync'd timestamps on all SCADA alarms. This is so you can backtrack major outages and grid collapses, across the continent if need be, at msec resolution to determine the sequence of events.

All they can do here is go through the historian/log file, assuming these battery packs are on CANBUS which is recorded by a central HMI, and see what the sequence of events was.
I would think a danger is Tesla taking an automotive battery pack doing a few mods and throwing it into a different, unfamiliar environment. You can't record events inside the  battery pack that's now ashes...

It looks like there's a gag order right now.  As long as they have a logfile to analyze.
 

Online trobbins

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 751
  • Country: au
Re: Australia's Biggest Tesla Battery Storage System at Moorabool is on FIRE
« Reply #74 on: August 03, 2021, 06:34:51 am »
The event was during initial commissioning.  They had utility approval to connect to grid (so had passed all documentation and inspections and comms connections for both HV and LV equipment and disconnects and monitoring/commands, and energisation of grid-connect Txs).  Event appears to have occurred part way through charging, but who knows whether that was just on a subsection of battery and its associated grid-connect TX, or they had multiple sections going.  They obviously would have confirmed all emergency facilities prior to testing and confirmed scada and status monitoring.  I would be amazed if local module logging was only logged within the PLC in the module, given a site scada.

External time sync would only be a concern imho if an external event initiated the fault.  It sounds like the export/connection was dropped appropriately, including a site-wide trip.  They may have localised/grouped battery backed comms/PLC facilities which could have failed at some time and left the site scada blind.

As I understand it, the grid product battery packs are not aligned to Tesla vehicle battery use - there certainly may be initial similarities, but the manufacturing plant and what is embedded in a pack could be significantly different.  I recall seeing a Megapack patent a few years ago, which was certainly different in the way battery shelves were modularised, wired and deployed (but I can't quickly find the patent).
« Last Edit: August 03, 2021, 06:36:22 am by trobbins »
 
The following users thanked this post: sandalcandal


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf