Car battery - died because of Corona - how take care of a new one

[IanB]

I'm out.

Before you go, any comments on my question above?

[Monkeh]

Yes, I'm working with the assumption he's got a good condition, brand new battery. It's a reasonable one, stop overthinking this.

My point is that most of the batteries you buy from an auto parts store are NOT IN GOOD CONDITION as sold!   

Edit: Authorized Interstate Batteries dealer...

And I'd like to point out you're coming from a very different country and culture. Yes, there are of course bad shops everywhere but I'm not operating under the assumption he got a bad one off the bat - my experience has been otherwise here.

.. cause and effect. There was no problem until the state of that connection was actively altered, it's extremely unlikely the problem is unrelated to that fact.

What are you talking about? 

The OP replaced what would have probably still been a perfectly serviceable battery due to a grounding issue not charging it properly.  Sure it was getting older but if it had been treated right it should have still had plenty of life left!

And where is the proof of this? The battery was deep discharged due to sparse vehicle use over lockdown (see first post). Yes, it may have had a bad ground contributing to that, but the one we've been discussing was bad after it was reconnected - the original state is no longer relevant and cannot be determined. A lot of otherwise good batteries have been knackered in the last six months over here by disuse. Modern cars often have relatively high idle draw and very different charging behaviour to older designs, and they are suffering.

Without knowing how the charging system in this vehicle is intended to work, I don't see how either of us can say what may be or was wrong.

[drussell]

And I'd like to point out you're coming from a very different country and culture. Yes, there are of course bad shops everywhere but I'm not operating under the assumption he got a bad one off the bat - my experience has been otherwise here.

I didn't say it was "bad", just that I highly doubt it was ever properly charged at activation!!

And where is the proof of this? The battery was deep discharged due to sparse vehicle use over lockdown (see first post). Yes, it may have had a bad ground contributing to that, but the one we've been discussing was bad after it was reconnected - the original state is no longer relevant and cannot be determined. A lot of otherwise good batteries have been knackered in the last six months over here by disuse. Modern cars often have relatively high idle draw and very different charging behaviour to older designs, and they are suffering.

ONE deep discharge of a battery designed for cranking duty will NOT destroy it!
(If it doesn't freeze or something!)

A cranking battery can withstand a hundred or more cycles of deep discharge before the plates physically disintegrate.  I use banks of cheap starting batteries all the time in large UPS system duty in the big 24 and 48v configurations because they only ever see a few cycles when the relatively reliable power goes actually out.  Regular car "starting" batteries are able to take a few deep cycles with no problem.

You obviously could not use the same ones in repetitive use on an off-grid system!

Deep cycle batteries are designed with fewer, thicker plates to take the repetitive abuse from a thousand charge/discharge cycles without enough wear to make things short out, unlike the typical many-thin-plate high-CCA starting battery.

Hang on, let me quote Chrysler, I'll go get the '98 Dakota Service Manual...

[Monkeh]

And I'd like to point out you're coming from a very different country and culture. Yes, there are of course bad shops everywhere but I'm not operating under the assumption he got a bad one off the bat - my experience has been otherwise here.

I didn't say it was "bad", just that I highly doubt it was ever properly charged at activation!!

14.4V but not properly floated - stopped at 600mA. So perhaps not fully, but close. Close enough with a conventional alternator, but I do not know how the charging system in this Focus behaves.

ONE deep discharge of a battery designed for cranking duty will NOT destroy it!

But sitting at that discharge state will. If the oh-so-smart charging system which was never engineered with the thought of a vehicle sitting around for a month or two doesn't charge properly after such an event, the battery will quite rapidly be a lost cause. Sat long enough, there's no hope of recovery (I just replaced one which sat for six months after the owner passed.. probably would survive two, not six).

[HendriXML]

.. cause and effect. There was no problem until the state of that connection was actively altered, it's extremely unlikely the problem is unrelated to that fact.

What are you talking about? 

The OP replaced what would have probably still been a perfectly serviceable battery due to a grounding issue not charging it properly.  Sure it was getting older but if it had been treated right it should have still had plenty of life left!

 

I'm out.

If any of you would like proper battery replacement or other electrical diagnosis in Calgary, AB or anywhere in the valley down there between Christina Lake and Grand Forks, BC, maybe over to Greenwood or Midway, hit me up... otherwise I'm just 

I'll jump in for a moment.
Please read the title, I know I didn't took great care of the battery. But instead of bringing it back to life I bought a new one for 125 euros. Thats like 25 euro's per year. With my means to take optimal care for a battery regarding access to the car and a power socket at the same location that kind of money is not be worth the hassle.
I don't think at this moment it has or had a charging issue. I didn't drive enough with it for too long and it was getting too old for such suboptimal care.
However I'm still charging the old one in batches, and I'm not convinced yet it will return in good state. But I've read that EFB's are quite forgiving about deep discharge so I will continue charging it for some more.
The bottomline is doing something suboptimal doesn't necessarily means doing it stupid, there may be practical constraints. (Like access or time)

[drussell]

For example, the Dak' service manual (3" thick BIBLE) goes into detail about deeply discharged batteries in the Battery chapter, 8A (I'm quoting from pages 8A-13 and 8A-14 from the '98 service manual,) and they are totally correct:

CHARGING A COMPLETELY DISCHARGED BATTERY

The following procedure should be used to recharge a completely discharged battery.  Unless this procedure is properly followed, a good battery may be needlessly replaced.

• Measure the voltage at the battery posts with a voltmeter accurate to 1/10 (0.10) volt (fig 14).  If the reading is below ten volts, the charge current will be low.  It could take some time before the battery accepts a current greater than a few milliamperes.  Such low current may not be detectable on the ammeters built into many chargers.
• Disconnect and isolate the battery negative cable.  Connect the battery charger leads.  Some battery chargers are equipped with polarity-sensing circuitry.  This circuitry protects the charger and/or the battery from being damaged if they are improperly connected.  If the battery state-of-charge is too low for the polarity-sensing circuitry to detect, the charger will not operate.  This makes it appear that the battery will not accept charging current.  Refer to the instructions provided with the battery charger to bypass the polarity-sensing circuitry.
• Battery chargers vary in the amount of voltage and current they provide.  The amount of time required for a battery to accept measurable charger current at various voltages is shown in the Charge Rate chart.  If the charge current is still not measurable at the end of the charging time, the battery is faulty and must be replaced.  If the charge current is measurable during the charging time, the battery may be good and charging should be completed in the normal manner.

Charge Rate
Voltage	Hours
16.0 volts maximum	up to 4 hours
14.0 to 15.9 volts	up to 8 hours
13.9 volts or less	up to 16 hours

CHARGING TIME REQUIRED

The time required to charge a battery will vary, depending upon the following factors:

• Battery Capacity - A completely discharged heavy-duty battery will require twice the charging time of a small capacity battery
• Temperature - A longer time will be needed to charge a battery at -18° C (0° F) than at 27° C (80° F).  When a fast charger is connected to a cold battery, the current accepted by the battery will be very low at first.  As the battery warms, it will accept a higher charging rate (amperage).
• Charger Capacity - A charger that supplies only five amperes will require a longer charging time.  A charger that supplies twenty amperes or more will require a shorter charging time.
• State-Of-Charge - A completely discharged battery requires more charging time than a partially discharged battery.  Electrolyte is nearly pure water in a completely discharged battery.  At first, the charging current (amperage) will be low.  As the battery charges, the specific gravity of the electrolyte will gradually rise.

WARNING: Never exceed twenty amperes when charging a cold (-1° C / 30° F) battery.
The battery may arc internally and explode.
Personal injury and/or vehicle damage may result.

Etc., etc...

A starting battery is intended to be topped right back up after a brief (but typically high-current) load, and will usually look that way if you data-log it.  As soon as you get partially discharged, it won't accept the expected rate of charge nice and quickly like it's supposed to, down all the way to almost drawing no current if it's really low, where it can take days to resurrect the cells.  They often are actually recoverable though, unless they're physically shorted or something...

That doesn't necessarily mean you can't bring them back!

You just have to know what you're doing!

(and, yeah, sometimes I've brought some back from the dead by prodding them with like 24+ volts...  They can even still have very decent capacity left, even though they were deep-discharged once or twice or something....)

[drussell]

I don't think at this moment it has or had a charging issue. I didn't drive enough with it for too long and it was getting too old for such suboptimal care.

Even with a few mA constant draw, you should be able to let a car battery sit for months without issue.  Yes, they get higher self-discharge as they age, but it should still have most of the capacity left after a matter of covid-weeks... 

I'd be willing to bet your old one was never being fully recharged, but I've run out of speculative feelings for this thread... 

[HendriXML]

Oh no.. my old battery is acting much better. I could charge it with 6 A right away. (I Think, didn't save the logging of the first batch). At this moment it accepted a total of 48 Ah. But at 42 Ah, the voltage was still below 12 V (11.8 if I remember correctly).

[drussell]

@drussell, do you have any comments on maintaining the modern type of sealed, "maintenance free" batteries? If you give the battery a long, strong charge up to 15 V or so it will generate a lot of gas, which will deplete the water in the electrolyte. With a regular flooded battery you would just top it back up with distilled water. With a maintenance-free battery, can you do the same? Is there a practical way to open the cell covers and top them up?

On the early "maintenance free" ones you could often relatively easily open the cells but many are now totally sealed once they fill them at the factory and then you're SOL.

Take great pains to not overcharge them, as that's probably the main cause of failure long-term.  If deeply discharged, you still want to blast them a bit but try to limit your duration of gassing and keep it slow.  Once or twice in their life a quick run up to 15 won't kill them, but don't leave it on a 1940s selenium-based trickle charger for a day or two like I do with the open-able ones..    haha

Basically, just try to never buy one of those garbage-style batteries if you want to actually have reasonable life.  They're essentially just absolute junk puffed up with marketing wankery.

[drussell]

Oh no.. my old battery is acting much better. I could charge it with 6 A right away. (I Think, didn't save the logging of the first batch). At this moment it accepted a total of 48 Ah. But at 42 Ah, the voltage was still below 12 V (11.8 if I remember correctly).

I pretty much guarantee your "old" battery is just fine, it just needed a good, long, slow proper trickle charge, which should take several days.  Depending on the manufacturer, it might still perform just as well as your new Varta... haha

Also, remember that on a trickle charge a reasonable chunk of your incoming Ah is going directly to heat, so take that measurement with a grain of salt...

[HendriXML]

I'd be willing to bet your old one was never being fully recharged, but I've run out of speculative feelings for this thread... 

It wasn't recharged at all, don't know wether that means your speculation is right or wrong.

I bought a new one because replacing is a hassle. And if the old one could be revived I would have a nice backup, or extra power source for experimenting. Yes I would have loved to recharge the battery in the car, but I couldn't leave my gear unattended and didn't want to buy a charger which would cost half of the battery. Which I then had to babysit as well. For days!! 

[HendriXML]

Oh no.. my old battery is acting much better. I could charge it with 6 A right away. (I Think, didn't save the logging of the first batch). At this moment it accepted a total of 48 Ah. But at 42 Ah, the voltage was still below 12 V (11.8 if I remember correctly).

I pretty much guarantee your "old" battery is just fine, it just needed a good, long, slow proper trickle charge, which should take several days.  Depending on the manufacturer, it might still perform just as well as your new Varta... haha

Also, remember that on a trickle charge a reasonable chunk of your incoming Ah is going directly to heat, so take that measurement with a grain of salt...

I think the old one performs like an old Varta 
Original Ford = Varta
But that's not a fair statement because we know the new one is not in great shape yet!

[SilverSolder]

Once a battery has been accidentally discharged to zero a couple of times, I have never been able to get them back up to full performance again - it seems they can be permanently damaged.

Mind you, I never tried the 15V - 16V brutal treatment, maybe that does something.

[HendriXML]

I think mine went as low as 7 V. Not enough to start. But not totally drained I guess.

[SilverSolder]

I think mine went as low as 7 V. Not enough to start. But not totally drained I guess.

If it was sitting at that kind of voltage for days and weeks, it may have sulfated the plates badly.

[HendriXML]

Found an interesting document on "smart charging":
[url]https://www.motor.com/magazinepdfs/042010_09.pdf/url]

I think I'll investigate next which obd2 reader can give some more insight.

[HendriXML]

https://www.focusfanatics.com/threads/smart-charge-low-battery-voltage.776210/page-2
This forum also gives an interesting read.

[Alti]

Even with a few mA constant draw, you should be able to let a car battery sit for months without issue.

OP has a car with battery management.
This means that such design has alternator excitation under software control.
It can push out 50A at 20V if it wishes to do so. It can even ramp up idle speed if needed.
If I were an engineer responsible for designing such a car, I would have cut BOM cost by removing any low power standby electronics and added some lines of code into battery management to compensate for this cheapness. How could a user distinguish 100mA draw + some lines of code, from a low power design that draws 10mA?

IMHO you cannot expect low discharge current from a car with battery management. Low power design is more expensive w.r.t BOM and testing, than a bog standard with LDO or zener+resistor. Concluding, if you compare old-fashioned constant voltage charging design and battery management charging design, under same and typical usage scenario (lets say 1h drive once a week, minimum) the second design can live with vastly higher standby current because it can copensate that draw in a sustainable manner. Of course covid is not a typical scenario a car is designed for but that is not manufacturer's problem.

That is just my hypothesis, based on the assumption car manufacturer maximizes profit.

[SilverSolder]

Even with a few mA constant draw, you should be able to let a car battery sit for months without issue.

OP has a car with battery management.
This means that such design has alternator excitation under software control.
It can push out 50A at 20V if it wishes to do so. It can even ramp up idle speed if needed.
If I were an engineer responsible for designing such a car, I would have cut BOM cost by removing any low power standby electronics and added some lines of code into battery management to compensate for this cheapness. How could a user distinguish 100mA draw + some lines of code, from a low power design that draws 10mA?

IMHO you cannot expect low discharge current from a car with battery management. Low power design is more expensive w.r.t BOM and testing, than a bog standard with LDO or zener+resistor. Concluding, if you compare old-fashioned constant voltage charging design and battery management charging design, under same and typical usage scenario (lets say 1h drive once a week, minimum) the second design can live with vastly higher standby current because it can copensate that draw in a sustainable manner. Of course covid is not a typical scenario a car is designed for but that is not manufacturer's problem.

That is just my hypothesis, based on the assumption car manufacturer maximizes profit.

It isn't hard to measure the car's total standby current - could be fun if we all had a few minutes to try, and see what is revealed?

[Alti]

Ok, I'll be back in 10 minutes. My car is old-style 20yo with constant voltage charging so this is uncomparable with contemporary cars full of electronics. But still, might be fun to check that.

[Alti]

Standby current is about 12mA, battery capacity is 45Ah, open circuit battery voltage is 12.7V and idling voltage measured on a battery terminals is 14.2V (i think it is constant for whole rpm range). There is no battery management controller in there, just plain excitation controller that feeds constant voltage.

[HendriXML]

The funny thing is ghat I wanted to measure the standby current when installing the battery. But when connecting the terminal to the body it sparked, and I could hear things switch on. So smart me says to me: that might be more than 10 A. A new fuse would cost like 10 Euro. So I didn't measure the current. After screwing te terminal on, I did try to measure the open circuit voltage right away. But why did my probe spark as well.
Smart me had prepared it for measuring currents.. Bye Bye 10 euro

I've read that unlocking the Ford gets it into a state in which it draws 4 amps! This might well be the reason my voltages are measuring low. After 40 min it goes to sleep again (a person wrote). I left my MM in the car doing min/max readings and it measured 12.43 V max.
Will do the same test again because Before these measurements I had it idling and charge it a bit. Which was only a short time at 14.4V after which it went to 12.8 V or near by.

[Monkeh]

Yes, measuring current on cars is difficult. Even if you don't crank it there can be some quite high peak draws, it takes some time for things to go to sleep, and with many modern cars just being nearby with the 'key' causes a decent load.

[HendriXML]

I did a new measurement today, leaving the MM in min, max mode for  about48 min (2,88 ks). Because the it is the second time the average is more close to the max value, than the min. My guess would be that the time it enters sleepmode is much shorter than 40 min. A quick calculation estimates about 8 minutes (460 s).
I think that's much more likely.

Ford Focus calculations
DURATION OF HIGH CURRENT
consumes
Voltage measurements
  voltMin                                 : 12,100 V ± 5 mV
  voltMax                                 : 12,350 V ± 5 mV
  voltAvg                                 : 12,310 V ± 5 mV
  secTotalTime                            : 2,88 ks ± 60 s
provides
  secHighCurrentDuration                  : 460 s ± 80 s

[SilverSolder]

I did a new measurement today, leaving the MM in min, max mode for  about48 min (2,88 ks). Because the it is the second time the average is more close to the max value, than the min. My guess would be that the time it enters sleepmode is much shorter than 40 min. A quick calculation estimates about 8 minutes (460 s).
I think that's much more likely.

Ford Focus calculations
DURATION OF HIGH CURRENT
consumes
Voltage measurements
  voltMin                                 : 12,100 V ± 5 mV
  voltMax                                 : 12,350 V ± 5 mV
  voltAvg                                 : 12,310 V ± 5 mV
  secTotalTime                            : 2,88 ks ± 60 s
provides
  secHighCurrentDuration                  : 460 s ± 80 s

So, "Volt" means "mA" here right?

I measured my Ford Escape, it also has a standby current of about 12mA.

That isn't much!  - but it is still 2Ah per week...    if you add this to the battery's self discharge rate, you can see that you can't just leave the car standing for months and expect a happy ending.