Don't like EVs - Living with Hyundai Kona Electric EV

[DougSpindler]

Is there a rational case for spending the big bucks on a Hyundai Kona Electric? I lived with one for three months to find out - and I'm the country's least-evangelical EV reviewer.  This guy will tell you what's wrong with EVs after having one to review for 3 months.  He makes some very good point.

[tom66]

Good summary.  John has a wise point regarding energy security.  Petroleum has one source, whereas electric vehicles can charge from solar, wind, coal, gas, nuclear and the tides.  Their use of energy overnight, while not 'free' as John seems to believe, is still generally good for the grid as it reduces the difference in demand between the day and night allowing for more consistent base loads (such as nuclear) to be used.

Think he missed a trick on servicing, though he touched briefly on it when discussing the brakes that last ages.  For the Tesla Model 3, the service schedule is a body inspection every 40000 miles or 4 years, then a differential/gearbox oil change every 120000 miles/12 years (first change due at time of first body inspection.)  The car barely needs any work doing to keep it going.

[DougSpindler]

Good summary.  John has a wise point regarding energy security.  Petroleum has one source, whereas electric vehicles can charge from solar, wind, coal, gas, nuclear and the tides.  Their use of energy overnight, while not 'free' as John seems to believe, is still generally good for the grid as it reduces the difference in demand between the day and night allowing for more consistent base loads (such as nuclear) to be used.

Think he missed a trick on servicing, though he touched briefly on it when discussing the brakes that last ages.  For the Tesla Model 3, the service schedule is a body inspection every 40000 miles or 4 years, then a differential/gearbox oil change every 120000 miles/12 years.  The car barely needs any work doing to keep it going.

I tend to like his videos because he has a engineering background and applies that knowledge to his reviews.  As I am a Yank, he can get a bit crude, but then as he says, he's from down there...  I'm sure it's a cultural thing.  His video knocking the stupidity of the Tesla semi EV is very good.  One has to wonder how Elon who has a degree in physics is that "dumb" for thinking an EV-semi would make any sense at all.

[f4eru]

and why should an EV semi make no sense ?
A few very small companies disagree with you, like, for example, Daimler:
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/daimler-first-electric-freightliner-semi-trucks/

[DougSpindler]

Daimler‘S range is only 250 miles.  Tesla’s in 600.  Tesla was taking orders for the truck for 2019 delivery.  The are having issues.  Daimler‘s not in truck is not production either. They just beat Tesla with the delivery or one or a few.

But here’s the real reason Tesla’s 600 mile range is silly, it’s the physics and the math.  The diesel fuel for a semi to travel 600 miles is contained in two fuel tanks on the side of the cab.  After the truck has been drive 500 miles the weight of the truck is less due to less fuel.  Very good cargo to fuel weight ratio.  Even after 500 miles.  With an EV truck after 500 miles your are still hauling around the nearly the same weight in batteries.  The cargo to energy every mile driven gets worse.

Now let’s compare energy volumes for diesel and batteries to haul a semi load of cargo 600 miles.  For diesel it’s a couple of tanks attacked to the cab.  For and EV you would need a semi-trailer full of batteries to travel 600 miles but then you don’t have any room for cargo.  So are you going to haul around a trailer of batteries to haul a trailer of goods?  Not really making much sense.

[ahbushnell]

and why should an EV semi make no sense ?
A few very small companies disagree with you, like, for example, Daimler:
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/daimler-first-electric-freightliner-semi-trucks/

Charging time seems to me to be a problem.  It will require a lot of power and expensive inverters. 

[DougSpindler]

and why should an EV semi make no sense ?
A few very small companies disagree with you, like, for example, Daimler:
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/daimler-first-electric-freightliner-semi-trucks/

Charging time seems to me to be a problem.  It will require a lot of power and expensive inverters.

And you just can't beat the energy density of diesel, (liquid carbon-hydrogen chains).  Or nuclear fuel.  Ford need to bring back the Ford Nucleon.

There was a reason consumers selected liquid petrol power for transportation over that of horses, steam, and electricity over 100 years ago.

[f4eru]

You can't beat the economics of EVs. Logistics is extremely dependent on economics.
The battery density is steadily improving.
The economic sweet spot of the drive cycle/battery size/driver work time for long haul will be found along the way. The charge infrastructure will grow without much problems, as it does with cars.
Today, short local trucks are converted to EVs (starting with packet delivery, garbage collection)
In 3 years, nearly all local trucks will move to electric.
In 5 Years, long haul will also.

[ahbushnell]

You can't beat the economics of EVs. Logistics is extremely dependent on economics.
The battery density is steadily improving.
The economic sweet spot of the drive cycle/battery size/driver work time for long haul will be found along the way. The charge infrastructure will grow without much problems, as it does with cars.
Today, short local trucks are converted to EVs (starting with packet delivery, garbage collection)
In 3 years, nearly all local trucks will move to electric.
In 5 Years, long haul will also.

Putting in charging for multi-megawatt stations is not cheap.  And putting in transmission lines is not cheap out in the county in the western US.  In the city is a different story. 

[f4eru]

so what ?
adding everything up, in the end, it's still 2-5 times cheaper per km than diesel.

[DougSpindler]

so what ?
adding everything up, in the end, it's still 2-5 times cheaper per km than diesel.

I have yet to meet a business owner who is not interested in saving money.  Help me understand if EVs are 2 to 5 times less business owners aren't buying them and saving money?  Makes no sense.

It might be cheaper...  But there's more to it.
An it all depends what you add and how you add it.  Just ask Bernie Madoff, John DeLorean or the thousands of others sent to prison for creative math calculations.

Why over 100 years ago when EVs were more popular than steam or petroleum powered vehicles they fell out of favor and people purchased ICE vehicles?

[DougSpindler]

You can't beat the economics of EVs. Logistics is extremely dependent on economics.
The battery density is steadily improving.
The economic sweet spot of the drive cycle/battery size/driver work time for long haul will be found along the way. The charge infrastructure will grow without much problems, as it does with cars.
Today, short local trucks are converted to EVs (starting with packet delivery, garbage collection)
In 3 years, nearly all local trucks will move to electric.
In 5 Years, long haul will also.

How are you going to do that without violating the law of physics?  EVs trucks/delivery vehicles were popular 100 years ago but lost out to fossil fuel powered vehicles.

It was four years ago Tesla's long haul electric semi was going to be sold in 2019.  That was last year.  The number of years you suggest need to be updated to reflect reality.

[tom66]

Putting in charging for multi-megawatt stations is not cheap.  And putting in transmission lines is not cheap out in the county in the western US.  In the city is a different story.

A brand new filling station costs some $10 million USD to install. I would be shocked (pun not intended) if the install of a DCFC station cost as much, even if it had say a 10MW rating.

[DougSpindler]

Putting in charging for multi-megawatt stations is not cheap.  And putting in transmission lines is not cheap out in the county in the western US.  In the city is a different story.

A brand new filling station costs some $10 million USD to install. I would be shocked (pun not intended) if the install of a DCFC station cost as much, even if it had say a 10MW rating.

Where did you come up with $10 million USD to install a filling station?  It's more along the lines of $250,000 - $500,000.  But why would one build new, where there are existing ones to buy?

[Alti]

adding everything up, in the end, it's still 2-5 times cheaper per km than diesel.

I think you miss the fact that this adding "everything up" and "cheaper" compares products on a subsidized market.
At least in EU and I think it is similar elsewhere, fuels get special tax treatment. Also electric cars have preferences, dedicated parking places where IC cars cannot park, lower insurance. Then IC cars are subjected to CO2 emission regulations, electric cars are not even though electricity still comes from fossile fuels, mostly.
It is cheaper only if there are 1% of electric cars but once everyone drives those, many problems arise. Including how to get the money that were flowing from fuel taxes, where to park EVs and how to substitute the energy flow, that today comes from fossile fuels, with electricity.

Concluding: this "X is cheaper than Y" is not shaped by free market and physics but by regulations, when you subsidize X or put a tax on Y.

[EEVblog]

Is there a rational case for spending the big bucks on a Hyundai Kona Electric? I lived with one for three months to find out - and I'm the country's least-evangelical EV reviewer.  This guy will tell you what's wrong with EVs after having one to review for 3 months.  He makes some very good point.

TLDR; you can just jump to his summary at 19:00
Basically, he likes it, met all his needs, won't miss filling up at the petrol station, and you should buy one if you have the extra cash and want to make a statement to the politicians and have skin in the energy game.

[EEVblog]

FYI, I'm THIS close to getting a new EV as a business vehicle, my accountant gave the thumbs up.
It's just a choice of LEAF or Hyundai IONIQ. The Kona is bigger bucks, although Mrs EEVblog has her eye on that.

[ahbushnell]

FYI, I'm THIS close to getting a new EV as a business vehicle, my accountant gave the thumbs up.
It's just a choice of LEAF or Hyundai IONIQ. The Kona is bigger bucks, although Mrs EEVblog has her eye on that.

Dave are you planning to take long trips in your new EV or do you have a second ICE car for that?  I have a PHEV so I get both in one. 

[sokoloff]

I have a 2015 LEAF, bought new, and been generally happy with it.
It did need a ($0, fully covered under warranty including a loaner car) warranty repair on the battery when a cell went "half bad". Car was still drivable but with poor range. They disassembled the pack, replaced the 2-cell module, and the car is back to normal now.


If it was our only car: no way.
If I had to drive 50 miles on a typical day: no way. (It can easily do 70-75 miles, even at 5.5 years old, but if I needed 50 miles as a baseline, that doesn't give me enough slack. My typical commute [pre-COVID] was 15 miles, which was perfect.)
If it didn't come with $10K in government money in the trunk: no way for me. (I'd have bought something else used, rather than buying any new car.)

Since I do all the (non-warranty, non-tires) work on all our cars, the LEAF has been a dream. I've had to add washer fluid 3-4 times and changed the wiper blades once. It's been a real maintenance nightmare in that regard. 

No data/info on the Kona, so I can't easily compare/contrast, but I've been happy with the LEAF. If I were the type to spend more money on cars, I'm sure I'd like a Tesla Model 3 or S better, but even used I can't see paying that amount of money for a car I drive 5K miles a year.

[EEVblog]

I have a 2015 LEAF, bought new, and been generally happy with it.
It did need a ($0, fully covered under warranty including a loaner car) warranty repair on the battery when a cell went "half bad". Car was still drivable but with poor range. They disassembled the pack, replaced the 2-cell module, and the car is back to normal now.

If it was our only car: no way.
If I had to drive 50 miles on a typical day: no way. (It can easily do 70-75 miles, even at 5.5 years old, but if I needed 50 miles as a baseline, that doesn't give me enough slack. My typical commute [pre-COVID] was 15 miles, which was perfect.)
If it didn't come with $10K in government money in the trunk: no way for me. (I'd have bought something else used, rather than buying any new car.)

Yes, the old school LEAF's would not even meet my basic need of getting up the mountains here, that's why I given up on the 2nd hand LEAF thing I've been considering, even took one for a test drive.
Better to spend the coin and get a new model with the range and 7 years battery life warranty (Hyundia, not sure about LEAF warranty).
You can save a bit on an almost new ex-demonstator LEAF or IONIQ, but with the Hyundai they changed the battery capacity and other good stuff from the 2019 to 2020 model, so better to just pony up a bit more and get the new model with bigger pack.

[EEVblog]

FYI, I'm THIS close to getting a new EV as a business vehicle, my accountant gave the thumbs up.
It's just a choice of LEAF or Hyundai IONIQ. The Kona is bigger bucks, although Mrs EEVblog has her eye on that.

Dave are you planning to take long trips in your new EV or do you have a second ICE car for that?  I have a PHEV so I get both in one.

We do occasional long trips.
The Kona fully electric has the range to do those long trips, they only problem I think is boot space (or lack of).
We looked at the PHEV, but didn't really seem worth when you can go the full EV hog with the Kona.

[DougSpindler]

FYI, I'm THIS close to getting a new EV as a business vehicle, my accountant gave the thumbs up.
It's just a choice of LEAF or Hyundai IONIQ. The Kona is bigger bucks, although Mrs EEVblog has her eye on that.

We have a Volt.  It's our second one.  Would defiantly buy another one, but they stopped making them.  I would watch these videos to help you decide.  While I cringe at some of his Aussie sayings, he's an engineer and I think giving an "honest" unbiased opinion.  These videos are from last year.  And do you get a $10,000 in tax credits and rebates for buying EV?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RDQj276EhI&feature=youtu.be&ab_channel=AutoExpertJohnCadogan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUyECsOuPuk&feature=youtu.be&ab_channel=AutoExpertJohnCadogan

[vk6zgo]

Putting in charging for multi-megawatt stations is not cheap.  And putting in transmission lines is not cheap out in the county in the western US.  In the city is a different story.

A brand new filling station costs some $10 million USD to install. I would be shocked (pun not intended) if the install of a DCFC station cost as much, even if it had say a 10MW rating.

A filling station, "in the middle of nowhere" in Oz needs just enough electrical power to operate the pumps, lighting, airconditioning, cooking facilities, etc.

"Off the grid", as is very common in remote areas, this power may be provided by a diesel generator, or as most often these days, by a relatively modest solar set up.

As there will be a mix of EV & diesel trucks for years, a "stand alone" EV station would be uneconomic in such places.

A "filling/charging station" catering for long distance trucks of both types would need power to provide all the things listed above, plus supply all the energy to recharge EV batteries.

It would be silly to provide that using a diesel generator, so the only viable option would be a much larger solar installation, or maybe hydrogen "down the track", if its problems are ever ironed out.

[EEVblog]

And do you get a $10,000 in tax credits and rebates for buying EV?

There is not tax credits or government subsidy on EV's
Although there is a small reduction in luxury car import tax and registration, but that doesn't really amount to anything.
So you pay a massive premium for an EV here, you can't buy a new fully EV for under AUD$50k. That's a pretty pricey car, with the same size ICE car costing a good $25k less.

[DougSpindler]

And do you get a $10,000 in tax credits and rebates for buying EV?

There is not tax credits or government subsidy on EV's
Although there is a small reduction in luxury car import tax and registration, but that doesn't really amount to anything.
So you pay a massive premium for an EV here, you can't buy a new fully EV for under AUD$50k. That's a pretty pricey car, with the same size ICE car costing a good $25k less.

You need to come to America.  We will give you $7,500 in tax credits.  Plus another $2,500 cash rebate from the state of California.  Then the power company will give you another $2,500 as a way of saying thank you for buying an electric vehicle.  But wait, there's more.....  Because you purchased in EV your electric rates for the next 5 years are lowered by 40%.  AND if that's not enough, you don't have to pay road taxes because you are not buying gas.  AND wait, there's even more....   The state just loves it that you purchased an EV so they allow you to drive in the HOV lanes with only one person in the car for free AND when it comes to crossing out state's bridges you get a discount on the toll.  Not enough you say?  Well you are right.  Many cities, stores and businesses give you FREE charging.

The only drawback if to get all of this you would have to live in America/California.

What am I thinking....  There's even more...  If you install solar on your home your fellow tax payers will pay 30% of the cost.

There are times when "It's good to be the king" and you get to follow the golden rule....  Those who have the gold, make the rules.