Electric Car Experiences

[Gyro]

Ohh yes I bet it took @boffin hours of waiting to recharge that tiny battery every hundred-something kilometers in that long trip. Yeah. Literally. HOURS.

You just said it was hours, now you are saying three minutes.

You don't know what a battery swap is, do you? Sheesh, you know ~ nothing, it seems.

I really like the concept of (semi?) automated battery swap technology - it seems like the only practical method of getting a full charge of energy into an EV in a realistic 'drive-in, drive out' time and without trashing the battery with ultra mega charge rates (I think there are warranty issues with Tesla if you always use the service station high speed chargers).

The only issue I can see is going in with a brand new battery and coming our with a 10yr old one, but it's probably not beyond the wit of mankind to solve that one, weed out EOL batteries at the swap station for recycling and slowly feeding in new stock from the manufacturer. etc.

Standardisation between manufacturers would be absolutely key however - but hey, they all want the best battery technology so maybe they can (maybe painfully) agree on separating the battery pack manufacturers away from the car manufacturers and each do what they do best.

The idea of having dedicated Tesla chargers at service stations that only support Teslas, for instance, isn't a long term supportable model - what if every car manufacturer wants to demand space for their own dedicated charging bays. 

[DougSpindler]

Google is your friend.

But you have to understand what you have found.  In your case you find false and inaccurate information.  When you do provide a link it is to conspiracy theorists made-up information.

Try getting an education....   It will be your bast friend for a lifetime.

[DougSpindler]

Ohh yes I bet it took @boffin hours of waiting to recharge that tiny battery every hundred-something kilometers in that long trip. Yeah. Literally. HOURS.

You just said it was hours, now you are saying three minutes.

You don't know what a battery swap is, do you? Sheesh, you know ~ nothing, it seems.

I really like the concept of (semi?) automated battery swap technology - it seems like the only practical method of getting a full charge of energy into an EV in a realistic 'drive-in, drive out' time and without trashing the battery with ultra mega charge rates (I think there are warranty issues with Tesla if you always use the service station high speed chargers).

The only issue I can see is going in with a brand new battery and coming our with a 10yr old one, but it's probably not beyond the wit of mankind to solve that one, weed out EOL batteries at the swap station for recycling and slowly feeding in new stock from the manufacturer. etc.

Standardisation between manufacturers would be absolutely key however - but hey, they all want the best battery technology so maybe they can (maybe painfully) agree on separating the battery pack manufacturers away from the car manufacturers and each do what they do best.

The idea of having dedicated Tesla chargers at service stations that only support Teslas, for instance, isn't a long term supportable model - what if every car manufacturer wants to demand space for their own dedicated charging bays. 

Something we a.ready have with iCE vehicles.   Most fueling stations have three grades of gas and diesel.  I have been at charging stations which have Tesla and J1772 charging heads.  One can get adaptors to convert tbetween the charging heads so it is not a problem.

As for battery swaps, we are doing something similar now with propane tanks.  When the tank is empty you take it back to the store and get full one in a tank that might be a week or 5 years old.  What counts is the amount of energy stored in the battery, bot the age of it.  It could easily be monitored and metered.  When you get a battery swap you are paying for the energy not the battery.

[tom66]

Really CCS is pretty close to a uniform standard, at least within Europe.  Any CCS car can charge at any CCS station, including Tesla. Theoretically, non-Tesla EVs could use CCS Tesla superchargers but they are locked out.  Tesla have talked about unlocking this but I think they would have a serious capacity overload.

I think the problem is that with EVs and swapping, battery packs tend to be highly integrated into the chassis and are therefore custom engineered for at least each platform of vehicles.  It's possible to imagine a universal battery pack but it would require some seriously consistent standardisation here, and at least three or four size grades of battery. Then not clear what you specify the packs as - are they all going to support fast charging? All going to support 300kW peak discharge for performance vehicles?  Will they all have similar capacity and degradation profiles? Do you own your battery and have to collect the old one on the way back, or is it leased/rented to you?

I could see battery swapping working for uniform platforms e.g. vans/taxicabs, where vehicles can be easily standardised, but when you can currently buy an EV from the size of the Smart fortwo all the way up to an e-Tron/Model X, you're going to struggle to make a standard platform.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Two standard sizes, big and small. Sorted!

But, for the same reason that not two cars have the same water pump, oil pump, disk brake rotors, alternator, wheel no. of bores and spacing, etc. etc., I reckon it's not going to happen anytime soon.

[tom66]

Maybe we should all just buy Mercedes AA Class ...

[boffin]

You seem to forget (conveniently) that for every (new) EV more than a hundred (new) ICEs are sold.

Those numbers include hybrids which are ICEs. Look up pure EV numbers my friend. And don't forget to count 2nd hand car sales too.

Why would I include used vehicles, that's not what YOU were talking about.



However, as the thread is about "Electric Car Experiences", can I suggest you stick to the topic

[DougSpindler]

Can we get GeorgeOfTheJungle banned?  He provides fake, false and misleading information.  He promotes conspiracy theories.  Nothing he posts is of any value and he always changing his position on a topic to hijack the thread.

He’s been politely asked to stay on topic, but he doesn’t. He’s always hi-jacking threads in an attempt to make them controversial.  He has ruined many a post and thread for all of us.

Time to get Dave involved to get hime banned.

[tom66]

Easy enough to ignore trolls.  They tend to go away when you do that ...

[f4eru]

Electric car experiences:
news that make you really smile in the morning: Germany had 5,3% of EVs sold in July. Our community is growing explosively !! Many new ffriends on the road.
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/verkehr/elektroauto-neuzulassungen-deutschland-juli-gesamtjahr-2020/
And it's going towards 10% end of the year.

[aheid]

Owned a secondhand 2018 BMW i3 94Ah for a year now, done about 50000km total. Primary used for work commute, but we've taken it on vacation during summer and up in the mountains during winter and -20C without issues.

Range is as expected, and good enough for us. Battery health is quite good, but I guess that's to be expected. Girlfriend especially enjoys charging at home, much less hassle than having to visit gas stations on a regular basis. Also the excellent turn radius is very welcome, makes for much more enjoyable city driving and parking.

Automatic cruise control is good when it works, but has a few annoying limitations causing it to cut off frequently in certain situations, like entering and exiting tunnels.

So far rather happy with it overall, though not having roof rack nor towbar is a bit more restrictive than we expected. No kids, if we get one this will be car #2 pretty quickly I guess, as it has limited space for luggage if you need the back seats. But we knew this so not a surprise. Given the uncertainty of resale value and general shift in market we didn't want to invest a lot in a car right now.

[stryker]

Like @aheid we've been an EV family for coming up to a year, with a Model 3 SR+.  The experience has been simply outstanding.  It was a big risk I thought buying not only without a test drive but also an american car after years of relatively trouble-free Honda ownership, in a family that mostly owns Toyotas.

Longest day trip so far was 760km but planning some longer ones in the school holiday coming up, and looking forward to post-plague times when we can do some more interstate travelling.  It's my daily commuter so it's done everything including hauling bags of soil and office furniture.  Im certainly not missing servicing it and the one-foot driving experience is great fun.

Now we can't stretch to replacing our diesel 2nd car with something new so watching for 2nd hand EVs which aren't terribly common, and choices aren't great just yet.  Even considering a Japanese 2nd hand import.  Either way, we'll not be buying ICE again.

[vk6zgo]

Two standard sizes, big and small. Sorted!

But, for the same reason that not two cars have the same water pump, oil pump, disk brake rotors, alternator, wheel no. of bores and spacing, etc. etc., I reckon it's not going to happen anytime soon.

In fact, a lot of cars do have many of those things.

Not so much as back in the day, though, when many Brit cars had parts which were interchangeable, not only between different brands from the same parent company, but between totally different companies.

The USA were similar, & in Oz, it was hard to tell the difference between starters & alternators used by Holden, Ford, Chrysler, & even Renault.
My "Australianised" Renault R12 also used the same distributor contacts as a Holden------very convenient!

The crankshaft bearing shell kit for my Leyland P76 was marked "GM or similar".

[aheid]

Either way, we'll not be buying ICE again.

Yep, we've been saying the same thing. It's a lot of little things for us, like the significantly reduced noise, one-pedal driving and convenience of being able to charge at home. Of course it helps that our electricity prices are such that home charging is a lot cheaper than gas, but I think even with equal "fuel price" we wouldn't consider an ICE again.

[jonovid]

Two standard sizes, big and small. Sorted!

But, for the same reason that not two cars have the same water pump, oil pump, disk brake rotors, alternator, wheel no. of bores and spacing, etc. etc., I reckon it's not going to happen anytime soon.

In fact, a lot of cars do have many of those things.

Not so much as back in the day, though, when many Brit cars had parts which were interchangeable, not only between different brands from the same parent company, but between totally different companies.

The USA were similar, & in Oz, it was hard to tell the difference between starters & alternators used by Holden, Ford, Chrysler, & even Renault.
My "Australianised" Renault R12 also used the same distributor contacts as a Holden------very convenient!

The crankshaft bearing shell kit for my Leyland P76 was marked "GM or similar".

a cheap EV battery swap design could work like this.
 designed to fit under a front wheel drive electric vehicle between the rear wheels. the rear bumper bar would swing up in theory, for access.
like a flat filing cabinet drawer,  allowing complete battery drawer access by way of a type of modified pallet jack.
no raised level platform needed,  different battery capacitys could be used on the same EV.
so in theory it be possible to battery swap at home.  a raised level automated platform can do the same job.
as a manual battery swap. you have a choice with this EV design.   
here is what I think about how a pallet jack battery swap EV design would look like.  see abstract image

small auxiliary battery remains in the EV to run the automatic coupler from the vehicle side.
plug in the battery without touching high voltage connectors. 
see how electric bus line automatic couplers are used on railways. 

do you think this will work? or is a better battery swap design.

[aheid]

Unless we get a significant increase in battery capacity (like 2x) I don't think a quick-swap battery system like that will be feasible. It'll waste too much space and restrict car design significantly to be competitive with non-swappable cars. Especially now that we got 150A chargers and such.

[DougSpindler]

Had this same conversation last week with a friend of mine.  This will not work.  You are not considering several key pieces of engineering.
 
1 - How do you ensure the safety of the people when changing the high voltage leads?
2 - What about the coolant lines and levels?  How are you quickly going to be able to disconnect and reconnect without leaking and without losing coolant every time there is A battery swap?
3 - The framing for the battery housing is part of the frame for the car.  Making it removable means you have just eliminated part of the car’s frame.  You would need to add non-removable framing which adds weight to the car and would weaken the overall design of the car.

Lastly, how are you going to do all of this in less time than a supper charger can recharge the batteries?

Take a look at the Sandy Murano videos on EV batteries and EV car frame design and you will get an idea of just how impractical this would be.  And the great lengths EV manufactures go through to reduce weight.

His videos on the design and engineering of EV cars is very interesting.  Take a look to get an appreciation for challenges EV car manufactures faced and the brilliant solutions they came up with.  It’s very impressive.   

[Neilm]

Points in order
1 - Careful connector design and someway of ensuring that there is no current flow when disconnecting.
2 - there are connectors that will automatically seal when disconnected so there would be no leak
3 - Ensure the car will not fall apart with the pack removed.

Tesla did demo a battery swap station for the Model S. I believe it was actually deployed but it was not used enough. This is why the later cars have the battery more integrated into the car. See https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/videos/battery-swap-event for the demo.

I can understand why it was not popular. As I own the battery in my car I know I am taking care of it - swapping out batteries would not be sure how well maintained the replacement battery had been. If I rented the battery I would be more open swapping.

[DougSpindler]

So if Elon was demoting the technology 7 years ago what happened?  Why was it abandoned?

My guess is for the reasons I gave and several more.  After seeing how the battery swap was done I think there is an added costs which would make it much too costly.

The Sandy Murano videos where he tears apart Tesla is interesting to watch is see the engineering that has gone into a Tesla and how they are constantly making changes to reduce cost and weight to make a better less costly vehicle.

If you watch the videos take a look at the high voltage connector design.  Sandy shows one of the issues Tesla had and how they changed the design.  I just don’t think it’s as easy as you think.  Sandy talks about the issues Tesla had with the HV connectors which would have problems and Tesla owners on the side of the road mid-trip.  These were not isolated indents.

I would think they would have similar issues with the coolant connectors.

But all of this would add cost and weight to the vehicle which is something Tesla is trying to avoid.

I wonder why Tesla gave up?  I think another reason is they are constantly changing the battery case design and the number of fasteners which would just add to the complexity of the equipment needed to remove and reinstall the batteries.

Those are my thoughts.

But don’t you think Tesla should be using the self-charging, green NDB batteries Dave recently reviewed?  The batteries would never need to be swapped and are self charging. 

[EEVblog]

Unless we get a significant increase in battery capacity (like 2x) I don't think a quick-swap battery system like that will be feasible. It'll waste too much space and restrict car design significantly to be competitive with non-swappable cars. Especially now that we got 150A chargers and such.

Just seems like an obviously fundamentally flawed idea.
The idea of physically swapping a several hundred kg large battery pack that needs automated handling and storage and bulk rack automated charging infrastructure etc just seems completely for all but the most niche applications (e.g. electric racing or something). No wonder it went nowhere.
And it needs to be automated because Joe Average EV owner isn't going to be able to operate such a system manually themselves, and we aren't going to go back to service station attendants that run over to your car and swap your pack and clean your windscreen for you.

[EEVblog]

Unless we get a significant increase in battery capacity (like 2x) I don't think a quick-swap battery system like that will be feasible. It'll waste too much space and restrict car design significantly to be competitive with non-swappable cars. Especially now that we got 150A chargers and such.

Just seems like an obviously fundamentally flawed idea.
The idea of physically swapping a several hundred kg large battery pack that needs automated handling and storage and bulk rack automated charging infrastructure etc just seems completely for all but the most niche applications (e.g. electric racing or something). No wonder it went nowhere.
And it needs to be automated because Joe Average EV owner isn't going to be able to operate such a system manually themselves, and we aren't going to go back to service station attendants that run over to your car and swap your pack and clean your windscreen for you.

Seems to actually be a thing in China?
https://electrek.co/2020/01/17/ev-battery-swapping-is-dead-in-us-but-china-wants-to-make-it-happen/

[tautech]

Wireless EV charging might yet to be a thing.
Chap I've sold a bit of gear to is getting 10KW over 200mm. 

[BrianHG]

I say we need a small robust emergency fuel cell which can convert gasoline directly into enough electricity with enough kick that a tiny 5 liter gas tank will at least give you an emergency 60km/h for a good ~50km.  Though, if you never need end up using it, I wonder if the gas would go rotten after a year or two.

At least with gasoline, under the absolute worst set of circumstances, you can still hop from gas station to gas station ~50km apart, or at least reach one and charge up.

Also, 5 liters of gas and the fuel cell would still take up space, but not much in weight.  So it would be an option for those who might need it.

And yes, just like with clean fuel cell tech which directly convert hydrogen into electricity with water exhaust, fuel cells which convert gasoline directly into electricity with a carbon-dioxide exhaust are also possible.

[DougSpindler]

Unless we get a significant increase in battery capacity (like 2x) I don't think a quick-swap battery system like that will be feasible. It'll waste too much space and restrict car design significantly to be competitive with non-swappable cars. Especially now that we got 150A chargers and such.

Just seems like an obviously fundamentally flawed idea.
The idea of physically swapping a several hundred kg large battery pack that needs automated handling and storage and bulk rack automated charging infrastructure etc just seems completely for all but the most niche applications (e.g. electric racing or something). No wonder it went nowhere.
And it needs to be automated because Joe Average EV owner isn't going to be able to operate such a system manually themselves, and we aren't going to go back to service station attendants that run over to your car and swap your pack and clean your windscreen for you.

Seems to actually be a thing in China?
https://electrek.co/2020/01/17/ev-battery-swapping-is-dead-in-us-but-china-wants-to-make-it-happen/

I just saw that article too.  Appears Tesla dumped the idea because they were going bankrupt at the time. 

What China is doing is something that would probably never occur in capitalistic world is to create an industry standard.  I'm sure it's government controlled.  When you have a dictator things get done.  When you have a democracy people argue over it for years and spend a lot of money on research and get little accomplished.     

[BravoV]

... people argue over it for years and spend a lot of money on research and get little accomplished.   

Its called NATO ... (No Action, Talks Only)