Electric Car Experiences

[The Soulman]

...my twizy is now almost 7 years old...

What mileage do you get with your twizy?
I'm looking at buying one, is 10Km per KWh a reasonable number to calculate with?

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Rest assured it can do 60..70 km per charge, pedal to the floor, more (closer to 100km) if you drive like a grandma. Driving on ~ flat roads, not uphill.

[janoc]

It takes a special kind of EV hater to spend their time looking through youtube videos about EVs just to find one to try and support a lost argument from weeks ago. And then to post it in multiple threads

Get over it George. It doesn’t matter whether round trip charge efficiency is 80%, 85% or 90%.  The energy effiiency and cost of ownership of a typical EV will still be far better than a typical ICE only vehicle.

We get it. You are opposed to EVs. This thread was meant to be for people with personal experiences with EVs.

Notice the country he is from.

Regardless of whether those efficiency numbers are valid, his costs (and mine too, if I was to buy an EV here in France) would be totally different than yours.

Here a pure EV costs about 50%-75% more than a comparable gasoline car, pushing prices of even small cars to ridiculous levels. You would be very hard pressed to find an EV under 33k-35k euro here (except for Renault Zoe but there you need to add also the monthly "battery rental" fee - yes, Renault is that retarded). For a 35k I can have a much better/larger gasoline (or even diesel) car, e.g. Mercedes C class or some BMW.

Also, if you don't own a house (a lot more people in Europe live in flats than houses vs the situation in your country) then you don't have where to charge it except for public chargers at supermarkets at such. That's extremely impractical as few people live nearby those. So all that wonderful electric fuel economy is worth exactly zero to me if I can't charge the car ...

The price and the fact that most of the current car owners wouldn't be able to have an access to a fast charger (not 15+ hours from a regular outlet, never mind that most parkings don't have even such outlets available) is one of the largest issues preventing faster adoption of EVs in Europe.

Owning a second "backup" car tends to be also very costly here, especially for large city dwellers who have to rent parking places (even in the street!) or a garage. Insurance, mandatory inspections, etc is non-negligible as well, plus insurance in most EU countries is per car, not per driver, so these costs add up very quickly if you own multiple vehicles.

And renting a car for an occasional long trip? Well, in that case it is often cheaper to take a plane than to deal with the rental here. Decent car is ~100 euro/day + gas/mileage from the usual outfits like Europcar or Avis. If I had to rent one to visit my parents 1500km from where I live, as I have done few weeks ago with my Seat Leon, I would pay about 1000 euro for the 10 days rental alone, then about 250 euro gas*. You can fly to the US and back for that and you will still have money left. Renting for such trip is just not a viable option. Been there done that ...

So you need to qualify those generalizations with: "The energy efficiency and cost of ownership of a typical EV will still be far better than a typical ICE only vehicle if you live in the US" (and, ideally, are able to afford a Tesla where you get free/subsidized SuperChargers everywhere), otherwise it is totally meaningless.

I would love to replace my diesel with an EV but it just doesn't make any sense at this point - even though 90% of my driving is just a short commute to/from work and shopping where an EV would have been ideal.

*(and possibly wouldn't be able to rent it at all because many rentals still forbid driving to the former Eastern Bloc countries, EU or not EU ... But that's a different debate)

[janoc]

Rest assured it can do 60..70 km per charge, pedal to the floor, more (closer to 100km) if you drive like a grandma. Driving on ~ flat roads, not uphill.

I think you are the first person I have heard to even own one of these. I have seen it at a local Renault dealership, but that's more an expensive go-cart than a car Do they also charge the battery rental fees for these things (like they do for the Zoe)?

[mtdoc]

So you need to qualify those generalizations with: "The energy efficiency and cost of ownership of a typical EV will still be far better than a typical ICE only vehicle if you live in the US".

By cost of ownership I was referring to what you pay to run and maintain a vehicle - not purchase price. Unless someone's cost of electricity is outrageously expensive or they are getting gasonline or diesel for free, the lower cost of ownership in that sense is a universal attribute of EVs. 

It's true that if a EVs purchase price is drastically more expensive than the equivalent ICE then over the lifetime, the lower fuel and maintenance price may not allow one to recoup the difference in purchase price. 

But of course if the argument is that the only car worth owning is the one with the cheapest overall lifetime cost - then the only cars worth owning would be very inexpensive, used tin cans.  Clearly there are other factors which go into people's automobile  purchase decisions.

(and, ideally, are able to afford a Tesla where you get free/subsidized SuperChargers everywhere)

At this time, Tesla's are the luxury end of EVs.  Most EV owners (PHEV and BEV) cannot afford a Tesla.

[boffin]

Let's look at costs here in Western Canada (Vancouver)
EV $32k (after $5k grant)
ICE $26k
Here I'm comparing a VW eGolf vs a VW Golf (similarly equipped)

Cost of Operation:
EV: 18kWh/100km (real world experience, about 15kWh/100 before charging losses) @ C$0.085/kWh = C$1.53/100km
ICE: 8.5l/100km (NRC Combined) @ 1.469/l = $12.49/100km

Cost of Maintenance:
The EV will have an advantage, the typical service interval is 2yrs/30,000km. No oil changes every 10k

I'll make up that $6000 difference before 60,000km even without the maintenance savings.  In reality it will be faster, because some charging is done at free charging sites, and not at home.

[janoc]

So you need to qualify those generalizations with: "The energy efficiency and cost of ownership of a typical EV will still be far better than a typical ICE only vehicle if you live in the US".

By cost of ownership I was referring to what you pay to run and maintain a vehicle - not purchase price. Unless someone's cost of electricity is outrageously expensive or they are getting gasonline or diesel for free, the lower cost of ownership in that sense is a universal attribute of EVs. 

I do understand your point but the running economy is only part of the equations. If you can't charge the EV then it won't help you much that you have a cheap electricity.

There is also part that is the utility value of the car - if I have to choose between a Twingo-sized electric Zoe that barely seats two adults or e.g. my Leon which is still considered a "compact" car (it would come to +- same price), then I am going to pick the Leon even if it costs more to run it over its lifetime*. The value is much better because I can actually transport people and things with it.

*(Mostly on maintenance. Although with the Zoe you have to pay about 100 euro/month for "battery rental" - a full tank of gas costs less than that even here where the gas is much more expensive than the US ...).

(and, ideally, are able to afford a Tesla where you get free/subsidized SuperChargers everywhere)

At this time, Tesla's are the luxury end of EVs.  Most EV owners (PHEV and BEV) cannot afford a Tesla.

Yes, sure. However, why I was mentioning that is that Tesla is the only one who is both subsidizing the fast charging (either totally free for or they are now charging the new owners a steeply discounted price) and actually has a fast charger network built in the US (much less in Europe, though). That is going to skew things a lot. So if you can afford a Tesla, you have a reasonable chance of getting a good utility value out of your car. People who can't do that and have to buy cheaper vehicles don't have such advantage, so that will make the electric or even plug-in hybrid cars much less attractive for them. Especially as many hybrids (whether plug-in or not) are electric only in a very token fashion and after a few kilometers you need to run the gasoline engine anyway.

[nctnico]

Cost of Maintenance:
The EV will have an advantage, the typical service interval is 2yrs/30,000km. No oil changes every 10k

A modern ICE needs an oil change every 25k to 30k km so there is no real difference there when it comes to service intervals. What is more interesting are the costs after driving 100k km and 200k km. People seem to forget there is much more to an EV than a piece of copper wire wound around bits of metal that makes it go. I strongly doubt an EV will be cheaper to run because the overall complexity of the car hasn't been reduced. Think about the drive electronics and battery cooling/heating system for starters. Earlier I posted some links showing the maintenance for an EV was more expensive compared to a similar ICE based car.

[mtdoc]

A modern ICE needs an oil change every 25k to 30k km so there is no real difference there when it comes to service intervals.

But an BEV will require no oil change and an PHEV driven mostly in EV mode may only  require an oil change every 90k to 100k km (or less often).

An EV will require very rare brake service whereas a typical ICE brake service is a regular high cost.

An EV will not require any transmission or clutch service whereas a typical ICE  service theses is very expensive.

Also an ICEs cooling system is much more prone to problems and need of reqular service than an ICEs.

If you actually owned an EV you might realize that there is no comparison in terms of service intervals or maintenence costs. EVs are hands down - much less expensive to maintain.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

And there are no 3rd party parts... so good luck if the inverter blows up, or if one cell of the 7 thousand 18650s dies out of warranty, or even if the dashboard "ipad" goes west.

[The Soulman]

Rest assured it can do 60..70 km per charge, pedal to the floor, more (closer to 100km) if you drive like a grandma. Driving on ~ flat roads, not uphill.

Thanks, my longest trips would be max. 30 Km between recharges, so the range I'm not concerned about.
More interested in the economic side, as the Netherlands is one of the few country's where it is not possible to purchase the battery,
instead it most be leased at 65 euro per month (with maximum 10.000 Km per year).
So it is very close to the costs of a "normal" small car and I'm calculating if it will be cost efficient at all.

I don't drive in heavy traffic and it is as flat as a pancake here, is 80 Km per charge (6 KWh) reasonable?
So (80Km/6KWh)*0,85 (charging efficiency) = 11 Km per KWh?

Last but not least, what version do you have 45 or 80 Kmh?

[bicycleguy]

I've tracked my electricity use since 1978.  Attached is my use since the current house.
Can you guess when I purchased a Chevy Spark.

[nctnico]

A modern ICE needs an oil change every 25k to 30k km so there is no real difference there when it comes to service intervals.

But an BEV will require no oil change and an PHEV driven mostly in EV mode may only  require an oil change every 90k to 100k km (or less often).

An EV will require very rare brake service whereas a typical ICE brake service is a regular high cost.

An EV will not require any transmission or clutch service whereas a typical ICE  service theses is very expensive.

Also an ICEs cooling system is much more prone to problems and need of reqular service than an ICEs.

If you actually owned an EV you might realize that there is no comparison in terms of service intervals or maintenence costs. EVs are hands down - much less expensive to maintain.

I'm starting to wonder if you ever had a good ICE based car and/or get screwed by the dealer you take your cars for service. For example brakes are extremely easy and cheap to service/replace. It shouldn't take more than half an hour to replace the pads. It shouldn't cost more than 60 to 70 euro.

Also I never had any of the problems you listed except on cars which where end-of-life (over 320k km). To give an example: the running costs of my cars has been between 13  and 17 euro cents per km. But then again I carefully select my cars for lowest TCO.

I think you should take off your pink glasses. An EV has a more complicated cooling system which is basically is an airconditioning. An aircondition in a car needs to be serviced about every 4 years due to inherent leakage of the refridgerant. An EV has wheel bearings, a transmission (fixed), drive axles with homokinetic joints, shock absorbers, etc, etc which all need repairs at some point. Due to the higher weight I'd suspect an EV will need more frequent change of tires as well. And not to forget the possible replacement of the battery pack at some point.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Rest assured it can do 60..70 km per charge, pedal to the floor, more (closer to 100km) if you drive like a grandma. Driving on ~ flat roads, not uphill.

Thanks, my longest trips would be max. 30 Km between recharges, so the range I'm not concerned about.
More interested in the economic side, as the Netherlands is one of the few country's where it is not possible to purchase the battery,
instead it most be leased at 65 euro per month (with maximum 10.000 Km per year).
So it is very close to the costs of a "normal" small car and I'm calculating if it will be cost efficient at all.

Cost efficient? Maybe not, to buy a twizy you have to like it :-) and have to have a garage, and can't leave it alone anywhere in the street because it's got no doors, and no A/C so only can take it when the weather is alright, and...

I don't drive in heavy traffic and it is as flat as a pancake here, is 80 Km per charge (6 KWh) reasonable?
So (80Km/6KWh)*0,85 (charging efficiency) = 11 Km per KWh?

That's about right, if your right foot isn't too heavy.

Last but not least, what version do you have 45 or 80 Kmh?

The 80.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Fanboys like to repeat ad nauseam, like broken records, that EVs are "less complicated" when in fact they are more complicated, and have more parts than an ICE. A Tesla about seven thousand parts more to begin with.

[nctnico]

I also looked at the Twizy but the lack of doors and needing to lease the battery made me dismiss it. In the NL the period with nice weather is about 5 months. Also the Twizy is too wide to manoeuvre through a traffic jam. It could be a good solution for specific trips if the situation on the road is suitable for such a small vehicle.

[mtdoc]

I'm starting to wonder if you ever had a good ICE based car and/or get screwed by the dealer you take your cars for service.

You're just spewing nonsense now.

I've owned approximately 20 ICE vehicles over 40 years.  I bought my first car - a used Datsun 510 at age 16.  Until about 10 years ago, I did almost all the service myself - oil changes, brake jobs, transmission service.  I have rebuilt ICE engines, changed several clutches.  I never have rebuilt a transmission.

Even when I was doing my own service, the cost of maintenance of an ICE was not cheap.

I've owned a PHEV (Chevy Volt) for 4 years now. Total cost of maintenance has been $50 for one oil change (The second one, which I just had done. The first oil change was free). Brake pads are still at  > 90%. Other than another oil change every 2 years or so, the only regular maintenance cost I anticipate in the next 5 -10 years is a set of new tires and some windshield wiper blades.

My experience is typical. Just look at the Chevy Volt forum or any EV forum. Most of whose members have long experience with ICE vehicles.

[The Soulman]

I also looked at the Twizy but the lack of doors and needing to lease the battery made me dismiss it. In the NL the period with nice weather is about 5 months. Also the Twizy is too wide to manoeuvre through a traffic jam. It could be a good solution for specific trips if the situation on the road is suitable for such a small vehicle.

Doors are available as an option, windows are available as well (at least aftermarket).
I've driven one a couple of years ago and I like it, and beats riding a electric bicycle: more shelter, higher top speed, ability to carry a passenger, etc etc.
Yes I do have a beard and like to wear fleece lol.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

JFTR, the transmission of a Volt is orders of magnitude more complicated than that of a normal ICE.

https://gm-volt.com/2009/11/09/engineering-design-of-the-chevy-volts-two-electric-motors/

[mtdoc]

JFTR, the transmission of a Volt is orders of magnitude more complicated than that of a normal ICE.

https://gm-volt.com/2009/11/09/engineering-design-of-the-chevy-volts-two-electric-motors/

I've seen no one claim that an EV is less complicated.

More complicated does not necessarily mean less reliable or more expensive to maintain.

Early ICE vehicles were very simple and very expensive to maintain.

Everyone on this forum should understand that a well designed and built modern electronic device is much more reliable and easier to maintain than earlier generation less complicated electronics or, god forbid, mechanical devices.

There are Chevy Volts that have been on the road for 8 or 9 years now - some with 200k miles on them. They have proven to be extremely reliable vehicles.

[janoc]

Seriously, I don't know what you drove (or whether the American cars are so crappy!) but e.g. my Leon is 9 years old and still on the same brakes (pads and discs) as when I got it in 2012. Granted, I do maybe 15k kilometers a year only. But even then the replacement would be around 300 euro, work included.

What sort of service does your transmission need? Older cars needed oil change every few years, more modern ones don't need that or the intervals are fairly long (60k km and more). That's for stick shift cars or something like the VW DSG (dual clutch) transmissions, though. Automatics are possibly more demanding - didn't own one, so no idea how much that costs.

Clutch? Again, how often do you change that for it to even be a factor? Clutch should last at least 150k kilometers, possibly more if you don't drive like an idiot. Certainly didn't need to change it so far, even though the car has 130k on the odo.

Most of my maintenance costs are annual oil change (+ filters), cleaning the AC, replacing the brake and cooling fluid every two years and occasional small fix like wheel geometry adjustment or AC refill. These things cost about 300-400 euro/year at the dealership and most of them will need to be done regardless of whether you have electric or regular car. Then small stuff like wiper blades, light bulbs, filling up the windshield washer liquid, new battery two years ago, etc.

Out of the larger repairs I had to replace the timing belt & accessories (at 120k km) which was about 800 euro. And then later shocks will  need to be changed, which is about the same amount. But that is something you do maybe twice or three times tops during the life of the car.

Maybe I am very lucky that I didn't have to do expensive repairs with this car yet but then I had a Clio before it was pretty much the same story - despite paying premium for having it serviced at the Renault dealership (I had it across the road from where I live).

[nctnico]

There are Chevy Volts that have been on the road for 8 or 9 years now - some with 200k miles on them. They have proven to be extremely reliable vehicles.

This is amusingly ridiculous. You can go on any used car website and find many ICE cars with 200k (or more) miles on them which still drive well and will do so for many miles/kilometer more. I can find nearly 2500 on a used car website targeted at the NL. The days a car was ready for demolition after 100k km are long gone (decades ago).

@Janoc: your 150k km is a bit low. On my previous two cars the clutch failed at 300k km and 340k km. On my current car it is still good at 300k km.

[janoc]

@Janoc: your 150k km is a bit low. On my previous two cars the clutch failed at 300k km and 340k km. On my current car it is still good at 300k km.

I believe that, I was quoting the manufacturer's ratings which tend to be very conservative. I am sure the real world values are more than that. The clutch in my car is also going strong still.

[mtdoc]

There are Chevy Volts that have been on the road for 8 or 9 years now - some with 200k miles on them. They have proven to be extremely reliable vehicles.

This is amusingly ridiculous. You can go on any used car website and find ICE cars with 200k (or more) miles on them which still drive well and will do so for many miles/kilometer more. The days a car was ready for demolition after 100k km are long gone (decades ago).

You are being transparently disingenuous.

 I never claimed that modern ICE cars are not also reliable. I was responding to the insinuation by George and your earlier post that because EVs are complicated that that makes them somehow less reliable or more subject to maintenance costs - both of which are demonstrably false.

You seem to have a pattern of going into multiple threads and making multiple posts spewing nonsense about equipment that you don't own and therefore don't like -  EVs, Apple products, any Oscilloscope that s  not a GW Instek or MicSig, etc, etc.   What's up with that? 

Since you have no experience with an EV, why are you posting in this thread?

[free_electron]

Let's try again to put this into the EV fanboys' heads: to the kWh/km figures you see on the dashboard, you've got to add the charger+battery round trip losses,"

What charger roundtrip?. You charge AT HOME. Zero roundtrip loss! Unless you have a gasoline pump at home : you can't do that in an ICE ...
The public chargers are there for your convenience and to enable long trips, just like for regular fuel pumps. They are not for daily usage. That is a big misconception.

A charger for an EV is equivalent to a fuel pump for an ICE.
You can't fill up an ICE at home. (unless you own a fuel pump)

You CAN fill up an EV at home. (simply plug in overnight)
You CAN fill up an EV at work. (many companies install chargers for their employees)
You CAN fill up an EV at many shopping malls , public parkings (many shopping malls and public parkings install chargers for EV's)

It's a matter of plugging the thing in when you come home.
On a standard 240 volt outlet at 30 ampere , assuming i plug the thing in at 8PM , i get 10 hours of charge by 6AM... That's 60 Kilowatts... More than half my battery pack. Not a problem. If i get an 80 Amp charger i can blast the battery full (100Kw) in less than 6 hours.

Again : the superchargers are there to let you drive long distance. I went to Lake Tahoe last weekend. Left home with a full battery , Stopped in Manteca after a 2 hour drive, topped it off while going pipi and grabbing an icecream. Drove all the way To Stateline, Nevada. Pulled in to Hard Rock casino, plugged in car, went for dinner and my pack was completely full. Drove around Tahoe , went to Reno , topped off at the Gigafactory back to Tahoe. On the way back home we left Tahoe with 170 miles of range. We hit Sacramento with 176 miles of range ! I ended up with more range because Tahoe is at an altitude of 6000ft. Most of the trajectory was downhill so consumption was zilch. Actually regeneration pushed the battery up to over 210 miles of range at one point. In sacramento we did another bathroom stop and grabbed a sandwich from Subway. By the time we were back at the car (we hadn't eaten sandwich yet, just picked up) the counter was at 265 miles. We drove another 3 hours to get home and had 70 miles remaining ...

A couple of weeks ago we spent time in Clear Lake. there is imply plugged in to a regular 110 volts 10 ampere outlet. That gives me roughly 4 miles per hour of charge. Whenever we were at the house i plugged in. Overnight that gave me easily 50+ miles. ( arrive at 7pm , leave next day around 9AM : which is 14 hours of charging). More than enough to compensate the driving around the area.

Large packs is the key.