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Electronics => Power & Renewable Energy => Topic started by: boffin on August 02, 2018, 08:07:10 pm

Title: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: boffin on August 02, 2018, 08:07:10 pm
I'm starting this off as a new topic for those interested in discussions around the viability of owning and operating electric vehicles. 

Experiences such as range, charging solutions, real-world economics, idiosyncrasies of your vehcile and more

For myself, I drive a new VW eGolf, and it's been great so far (other than a flat tire). Economy is amazing, about 14kWh/100k out of the battery, call it 16kWh when you consider charging efficiency.

Anyone else want to add their experiences with their electric (or PHEV) ?



Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: Fred27 on August 02, 2018, 08:39:18 pm
I've had a Zero FXS electric motorbike for the last year. I absolutely love it. It's not a motorway mile cruncher or suited to touring, but it's great fun and ideal for commuting.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: mtdoc on August 04, 2018, 12:23:48 am
4 years ago I purchased a Chevy Volt. I never thought I'd purchase a compact American car but after reading so many positive reviews....

I understood the technical advantages of moving a vehicle with an electric motor vs an ICE and I knew I would be saving money on gasoline but what I did not appreciate was just how nice it is not having to go to the gasoline station once a week.   My current lifetime average is 208 mpg.  I rarely need to use any gasoline - only for the occasional long car trip.  I only put gas in it about twice a year.

The experience has been so positive, we just bought my wife a PHEV minivan - the Chrysler Pacifica PHEV.

I also own a Toyota 4WD Tundra pick up truck I use for hauling garbage, recycling and construction materials.  It also serves as our emergency vehicle during heavy snow falls when the roads have not yet been plowed.  As soon as there is a good 4WD EV truck available, I'll be replacing the Tundra...
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: saike on August 04, 2018, 05:12:24 am
I bought a 2018 Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV a few months ago and so far it has been brilliant, 1200 miles without putting any petrol in it yet.
It is definitely a short trip shopping car with a proposed electric range of 32 miles and I am quite surprised that I am actually  getting an easy (summer time) 28 miles range.

Charging while away from home is a non starter, there is either a 4 hour charge time to do another 28 miles, or a fast charge (30 mins) to get another 24 miles which is more expensive than putting a gallon of petrol in the car.

The thing that surprises me most about all this (with the recent kerfuffle about exhaust emissions in mind) is that anybody actually believes the performance figures quoted by the car manufacturers, which are purely aimed at selling the car to the public and not giving them any real idea of the performance they can expect from the car.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: boffin on August 04, 2018, 05:56:33 pm
The thing that surprises me most about all this (with the recent kerfuffle about exhaust emissions in mind) is that anybody actually believes the performance figures quoted by the car manufacturers, which are purely aimed at selling the car to the public and not giving them any real idea of the performance they can expect from the car.

I actually think right now that some companies (I'm looking at your VW) are completely paranoid about exactly that.  For example my eGolf is quoted 200km/charge, but I routinely get about 225-240

As for actual mileage, I'm seeing about 14kWh/100km, even with charging losses of what appear to be around 10% the numbers are quite stunning
15½ kWh @ C$0.085/kWh = C$1.32/100km whereas the ICE version of the same car uses about 8l of gasoline @$1.46/l, or $11.68

As for AC/heater usage, using the AC seems to add 1-2kW to the draw, not a huge draw, and certainly not enough to scare me about it.

For 90% of the people out there, a BEV is a viable alternative. There's always going to be people who need regular long drives etc, but I probably do 200+km drives in a day about 2/year, and it either takes a little planning, or to simply rent a car when I do need non-EV range. 
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: sokoloff on August 04, 2018, 09:03:15 pm
Have had a Nissan LEAF as my daily driver for ~44 months now. Overall, it's been great.

Unfortunately, the battery range is a little snug to get me home or work to the airport and back with perfect comfort/reliability. It's pretty reliably able to do it, and was perfectly reliable and then some when the battery was new.

We also have an ICE car, so any long range trips that aren't done by air are done by that car. As the guy who turns the wrenches on all our stuff, I much prefer the electric. :)
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: nctnico on August 04, 2018, 09:03:48 pm
and it either takes a little planning, or to simply rent a car when I do need non-EV range.
You keep saying that but I doubt you ever tried it. I've been down that road a couple of years ago thinking we could do with one car and rent a car if necessary. Well that turned out to be a huge miscalculation. The financial break even point for owning a (second hand) car was less than a year. Note that when renting a car you are also paying for depreciation with a big profit on top.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: coppice on August 04, 2018, 09:39:19 pm
and it either takes a little planning, or to simply rent a car when I do need non-EV range.
You keep saying that but I doubt you ever tried it. I've been down that road a couple of years ago thinking we could do with one car and rent a car if necessary. Well that turned out to be a huge miscalculation. The financial break even point for owning a (second hand) car was less than a year. Note that when renting a car you are also paying for depreciation with a big profit on top.
How many days a year of renting do you expect you would have to pay for?
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: mtdoc on August 04, 2018, 09:48:10 pm
Rental cars are cheap in the US. $30-40 a day, $200-300 for a week with unlimited miles. Auto insurance alone in most parts of the US will cost you $1000 a year per vehicle for liability coverage alone.

I’ve known non-EV owners who use rental cars for any long trips just because they don’t trust their cheap commuter vehicle.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: nctnico on August 05, 2018, 04:33:17 pm
Rental cars are cheap in the US. $30-40 a day, $200-300 for a week with unlimited miles. Auto insurance alone in most parts of the US will cost you $1000 a year per vehicle for liability coverage alone.
My car insurance costs way less but due to not claiming anything for many years got me a hefty discount.

Those low rental prices usually are for very small cars. If you want a decent car the price nearly doubles and then there is the extra insurance. But as I wrote before I already tried to 'optimise' cars. My previous car was a sedan. My thinking was: I don't need a station wagon every day and I'll sort things out when I need to transport something large. Well that turned out to be a really bad idea. Fortunately my wife had a relatively large hatch-back so I could use that to transport larger items but it still didn't do the job well. I recall buying a couple of windows but those where too large for the lid to close so I had to drive around to find a shopping mall first to but a piece of rope to tie it shut. Same for a dish-washer and many other items. Buying a car which can't do the 1% you need every now and then just sucks. Nowadays I'm back to the station wagon. I hope this underlines my point when I'm saying that buying a car which can only do 99% (or less) of the use cases is going to be a nuisance because it doesn't deliver when you need it the most.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: james_s on August 05, 2018, 04:41:42 pm
No, it's a nuisance for *you*. For many other people it's not a big deal at all. You've been harping on the same ridiculous things post after post after post, and frankly I don't understand your obsession with it. Why can't you just do your thing and let other people do what works for them? You have an almost religious belief regarding this topic, no fact would ever sway your mind, so what is the point? 
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: nctnico on August 05, 2018, 05:44:17 pm
No, it's a nuisance for *you*. For many other people it's not a big deal at all. You've been harping on the same ridiculous things post after post after post, and frankly I don't understand your obsession with it. Why can't you just do your thing and let other people do what works for them?
Perhaps you should try to *understand* what I write. I'm just writing down what I've learned during the past decades. There is no need to repeat my mistakes if you care to take notice. But then again: you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: 2N3055 on August 05, 2018, 06:13:34 pm
Rental cars are cheap in the US. $30-40 a day, $200-300 for a week with unlimited miles. Auto insurance alone in most parts of the US will cost you $1000 a year per vehicle for liability coverage alone.

I’ve known non-EV owners who use rental cars for any long trips just because they don’t trust their cheap commuter vehicle.

Just to give you a feeling how it is different in EU, here in Croatia to rent Skoda Octavia (what you in USA would consider smaller sedan) is 80ish € a day. On my car (Toyota RAV4) I pay 350 € insurance a year. My Toyota would be more than 100€ a day rented.

I lived in USA for few years. Many people in USA cannot understand how different USA is than the rest of the world, especially how market is different. Some stuff here is 5x more expensive than in USA, some is 5x less expensive. It's different.

So generalizations that something that works for you in USA ( and I you believe it does ) will work here too is not right. It might work even better, it might not work at all.

Market, infrastructure etc is different.  And then there are differences across EU. Poor countries VS rich ones, cultural diffs: French likes this, Germans that, Italian somethin else...

Many things don't work like they do in USA. Electric cars, solar tech... Different economic environment...
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: mtdoc on August 05, 2018, 07:00:22 pm
I lived in USA for few years. Many people in USA cannot understand how different USA is than the rest of the world, especially how market is different. Some stuff here is 5x more expensive than in USA, some is 5x less expensive. It's different.

So generalizations that something that works for you in USA ( and I you believe it does ) will work here too is not right. It might work even better, it might not work at all.

Fair enough but I was not generalizing - in fact I specifically noted that I was referring to the US in repsone to a poster who was extrpolating his experience to others.  And FWIW, I’ve travelled extensively through Europe, including one 8 month work/travel trip, so i am well aware of the differences between the US/Canada and Europe as well as the variations among European countries.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: boffin on August 07, 2018, 10:18:52 pm
I expect one of the places you'll see an explosion of BEV in the next few years are short-distance (city) delivery vehicles.  When I was a kid (in the UK), milk was delivered by an electric vehicle; that was the 70s. Surely it would be even more efficient today.

How many km/day does the avg FedEx/UPS/Mail truck drive?
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: coppice on August 07, 2018, 10:23:32 pm
I expect one of the places you'll see an explosion of BEV in the next few years are short-distance (city) delivery vehicles.  When I was a kid (in the UK), milk was delivered by an electric vehicle; that was the 70s. Surely it would be even more efficient today.

How many km/day does the avg FedEx/UPS/Mail truck drive?
In some places those parcel delivery companies are already heavy users of electric delivery vans. They seem to be leading the use of these vehicles. I guess they have more stop start action than most other delivery van activity, and gett the greatest benefit from regen.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: saike on August 08, 2018, 08:23:07 am
I went to a used equipment dealer here in the UK a couple of years ago and they had just purchased 15 fairly large electric delivery vehicles which had come to the end of a lease agreement. They cleaned them up and resold them for 3 times more than they had paid for them. A  large (high 5 or low 6 figure sum) profit for having enough courage to buy them and hope there was a resale market.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: jordanp123 on August 13, 2018, 09:55:18 pm
Got a Tesla Model 3 a few weeks back. Always wanted a electric car and the opportunity presented its self so I grabbed it. So far its been great, I need to upgrade my charging circuit at home (240V-20 Amp-Charges at 16A ), but insofar so good.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: f4eru on August 13, 2018, 10:34:28 pm
Quote
Got a Tesla Model 3 a few weeks back.
The best car available today in the price/range.
We are eager to get it in Europe, as the size and range is especially well suited for our roads.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: jmelson on August 14, 2018, 08:04:06 pm

Anyone else want to add their experiences with their electric (or PHEV) ?
Well, since you included PHEV (which I guess is similar to a PZEV) I have a Honda Civic Hybrid.  It has a different engine than regular Civics, with variable intake valve timing and the ability to cut off several cylinders.  So, it has no throttle, but reduces engine output by allowing less fuel/air charge into the cylinders.  This takes several seconds to do, so would be unnerving without the hybrid motor/generator.  With the hybrid system, any time you move the gas pedal, it immediately uses the hybrid motor/battery to supply or extract the required energy until the valve timing is adjusted.

Rather complex stuff, but it seems to work really well, and reliably.  They also have a chain-drive continuously variable transmission, with a wet-pack clutch similar to what is on a motorcycle.

Anyway, it all works quite well, and when ** I ALONE ** drive it, I can get over 50 MPG using US gasohol.  When my family drives it, they can get the mileage down into the 40's right away.  (ugh)  The only problem I've had with it is the battery pack blew at 68,000 miles, and is getting ready to do it again.  Whoever thought you could put 120 Ni-MH D-cells in series with no cell balancing and hit it will 100 A charge and discharge cycles for years should have been fired (and maybe put in the nut house).  It is totally amazing that the battery can take that abuse for several years before slowly going bad.

So, I like it, and may get another hybrid.  I'm wondering if the Toyota Prius Prime (plug-in hybrid) might be my next car.

Jon
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: f4eru on August 14, 2018, 08:29:27 pm
Interesting system, but yeah. Why do they use nimh in 2018 in the first place ? Why no lithium tech ?
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: bd139 on August 14, 2018, 08:30:20 pm
I know four people who have bought Tesla model S and X in the last year and disappeared. I don’t think this is a conspiracy or anything. They’re just sitting in them all day with a big smile on :)
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: Fred27 on August 14, 2018, 09:35:19 pm
So, it has no throttle, but reduces engine output by allowing less fuel/air charge into the cylinders.
Isn't that exactly how a throttle normally works?
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: james_s on August 14, 2018, 10:07:26 pm
So, it has no throttle, but reduces engine output by allowing less fuel/air charge into the cylinders.
Isn't that exactly how a throttle normally works?

Effectively, yes. The throttle (on a conventional gasoline engine) controls the amount of air that can enter the intake manifold. This in turn determines the amount of fuel injected into the air immediately prior to entering the cylinder.

Diesel engines on the other hand have no throttle, the power output is controlled by adjusting the amount of fuel injected directly into the combustion chamber.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: Kevman on August 15, 2018, 01:26:48 pm
I bought a Chevy Bolt 14 months ago, and love it. Its really is fun to drive, quiet, reliable and has enough range for anything but long trips. What's not to like?

The Bolt has an EPA listing of 238 miles, but can approach 260 miles in ideal weather where I live. However, in the Winter, it can dip as low as 150 miles.

So, If you live in a colder climate, make sure you have plenty of excess range. And a 240v charger- a 120v will barely charge the car at all in the cold. Rich Rebuilds has said that his Model S has LOST range in the winter while plugged in to 120v!

32A EVSE is not necessary unless you average over 100 miles a day driving, though. Pretty much any 240v will be plenty.

ESVEs have really been coming down in price and I expect that to continue. I paid $250 for my 16A charger a year ago but the same charger is $175 now. There just isn't much to them.

Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: CJay on August 15, 2018, 01:56:38 pm
Rental cars are cheap in the US. $30-40 a day, $200-300 for a week with unlimited miles. Auto insurance alone in most parts of the US will cost you $1000 a year per vehicle for liability coverage alone.

I’ve known non-EV owners who use rental cars for any long trips just because they don’t trust their cheap commuter vehicle.

Rentals can be as little as £12 a day here if you want a small car, I paid £17 a day with unlimited mileage for a Vauxhall Insignia (which I think is a Buick Regal in the US?) when I went to Scotland for a week.

I don't currently have a car so I'm looking at options and at the moment but an EV is working out to be the more expensive option even if I buy second hand.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: boffin on August 15, 2018, 04:05:54 pm
So, it has no throttle, but reduces engine output by allowing less fuel/air charge into the cylinders.
Isn't that exactly how a throttle normally works?

Effectively, yes. The throttle (on a conventional gasoline engine) controls the amount of air that can enter the intake manifold. This in turn determines the amount of fuel injected into the air immediately prior to entering the cylinder.

Diesel engines on the other hand have no throttle, the power output is controlled by adjusting the amount of fuel injected directly into the combustion chamber.

It's still a throttle, it just meters fuel, not fuel+air.  Also some modern gasoline engines use gasoline direct injection, rather than pre-mixing air/fuel.  (Hydundai have a bunch of GDI engines)
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: james_s on August 15, 2018, 04:18:21 pm
While the term "throttle" is widely applied to any mechanism of regulating power output, technically the term most accurately describes the butterfly valve or other mechanism used to restrict airflow into the engine. As a verb to throttle is to choke or suffocate.

I'm aware of GDI engines, which is why I specifically mentioned "conventional" gasoline engines. GDI is an interesting technology, I'm somewhat surprised it was not more widespread sooner as it has been around for a long time. Many of the German aircraft engines from WWII were GDI, using mechanical injection pumps similar to older diesel engines.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: nctnico on August 15, 2018, 06:52:46 pm
While the term "throttle" is widely applied to any mechanism of regulating power output, technically the term most accurately describes the butterfly valve or other mechanism used to restrict airflow into the engine. As a verb to throttle is to choke or suffocate.

I'm aware of GDI engines, which is why I specifically mentioned "conventional" gasoline engines. GDI is an interesting technology, I'm somewhat surprised it was not more widespread sooner as it has been around for a long time. Many of the German aircraft engines from WWII were GDI, using mechanical injection pumps similar to older diesel engines.
In general GDI engines have problems with sooth contamination in combination with exhaust recirculation. Mitsubishi can tell you all about their misfortunes when it comes to their GDI engines from the mid 90's. The primary problem is running the engines at low loads which shouldn't happen with the current downsized tubocharged engines.

See: https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=38913 (https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=38913)
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: jmelson on August 15, 2018, 07:02:16 pm
Interesting system, but yeah. Why do they use nimh in 2018 in the first place ? Why no lithium tech ?
Oh, they DON'T!  Mine is a 2009, they went to Li (something) in 2011, I think.  My daughter has an old Prius, which always had Li batteries, and hers is still going strong on the original battery.

Jon
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: jmelson on August 15, 2018, 07:09:24 pm
Isn't that exactly how a throttle normally works?
The throttle of an Otto-cycle engine puts a restriction in the intake manifold, and the engine has to work against that restriction to get air into the cylinders.  This is called "pumping loss" in the industry, and is a very significant loss of engine efficiency.  The Honda scheme allows the intake valve to stay open later, bridging from the intake stroke to the compression stroke, effectively shortening the intake stroke and the charge in the cylinder.  There is SOME loss there, as air passes the intake valve twice, but there is never any manifold vacuum, so at mid-throttle conditions, the pumping loss is reduced to a tiny amount.  This is a modified Atkinson cycle engine.

They also have a mode where they can shut all 16 valves while running in pure electric mode, and there is zero fuel consumption.  Due to the small size of the motor and battery, you can't drive very far like that - like 1/4 mile down a slight hill, maybe.

Jon
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: free_electron on August 15, 2018, 07:31:14 pm
I own two. I drive a Tesla Model-X 90D with all options and my wife has a Tesla Model-S 90D with most of the options.
I use autopilot on a daily basis to go to-from work. We both charge at home or at work.

For long trips : supercharger. We've done roadtrips to LA, Yosemite and other places. Last weekend we were in Lake County. charged the car fully the night before. Ran nonstop for 3 1/2 hours to Ukiah. Hooked it to the supercharger, went grocery shopping for 40 minutes and the battery was completely full again ( 240 miles ). Then we drove to Soda bay for a 4 day weekend. Drove around the area. plugged it in a regular 110 volt outlet during the night. That gives me about 40 miles in 10 hours. More than enough for the sightseeing and compensate for daily usage. On the way we stopped in Petaluma for lunch while hooked at the supercharger there. In 30 minuted the battery was topped off and we arrived home with 110 miles remaining.

I bought my first one almost 5 years ago Model-S 75. After driving that for almost 6 months i figured out : this is the future , and that is a company i want to work for. ( I was at ST Microelectronics at the time ). So i switched.
After my lease term was up i upgraded to a newer version Model-S. Last year i got married so my wife now drives the S and i got a model X.

I am writing this as a driver. Not as employee.

The only adaptation needed : a power outlet in the garage. As for daily driving : the battery is so large it is a non-issue.
For roadtrips : you can drive 3+ hours nonstop at highway speed. Then it is time for pipi and a starbucks anyway. Plug it in, visit restroom and grab a coffee and the thing is full.
Sure you can fill gasoline faster. But it is more fun to stretch the legs for 30 minutes. you arrive less tired at your destination.

Again : full disclosure : i work there , but i bought my first one before that. Am writing this purely as a driver of an EV. And no, there are no employee perks. All you get is free air in the tires.



Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: james_s on August 15, 2018, 07:39:33 pm
Oh, they DON'T!  Mine is a 2009, they went to Li (something) in 2011, I think.  My daughter has an old Prius, which always had Li batteries, and hers is still going strong on the original battery.

Jon

My partner has a first gen Prius, it's a 2002 which is in every way I can determine, identical to the 2001 it replaced after somebody rear-ended her and totaled it. To my absolute amazement, the original battery is still going strong after 16 years. I replaced the 12V battery after it failed several years ago but never touched the traction battery. It's easily one of the most boring driving experiences I can ever recall but in terms of getting from point A to point B I have been astonished at the dependability. Of course now that I said that it will probably break down.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: james_s on August 15, 2018, 07:42:57 pm
They also have a mode where they can shut all 16 valves while running in pure electric mode, and there is zero fuel consumption.  Due to the small size of the motor and battery, you can't drive very far like that - like 1/4 mile down a slight hill, maybe.

What is the purpose of closing all the valves? Does the engine not disengage from the transmission in pure EV mode? I'd have thought even with the compression acting like a spring that the friction losses of spinning an engine with all the valves closed would still be huge but I don't really know.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: Kevman on August 15, 2018, 08:22:00 pm
They also have a mode where they can shut all 16 valves while running in pure electric mode, and there is zero fuel consumption.  Due to the small size of the motor and battery, you can't drive very far like that - like 1/4 mile down a slight hill, maybe.

What is the purpose of closing all the valves? Does the engine not disengage from the transmission in pure EV mode? I'd have thought even with the compression acting like a spring that the friction losses of spinning an engine with all the valves closed would still be huge but I don't really know.

All this talk about gas and diesel engines in an EV thread.  :=\

Anyway, what's the alternative? If you hold the intake valve open like an unloaded air compressor the piston will hit it at TDC and there's all kinds of losses associated with opening and closing the valve over and over for no reason.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: jmelson on August 15, 2018, 09:52:24 pm
What is the purpose of closing all the valves? Does the engine not disengage from the transmission in pure EV mode? I'd have thought even with the compression acting like a spring that the friction losses of spinning an engine with all the valves closed would still be huge but I don't really know.
In the Honda Civic Hybrid, the traction motor/generator is built into the flywheel of the IC engine.  So, Honda cheaped-out of the drivetrain.  (Probably to not infringe on the Toyota Prius drivetrain.)

The motor is permanently connected to the IC engine, if one is spinning, the other is, too.  With all valves closed, the friction in the engine is amazingly small.

If you want to check this out, you need an OLD car, pre-computerized drivetrain.  Put the transmission in LOW, and accelerate to, maybe 30 MPH.  Turn the ignition  off and simultaneously floor the accelerator.  Let the car coast for a few seconds, then take your foot off the accelerator.  The difference is the pumping loss of the engine throttle.  You will be amazed at how well the car coasts with the throttle wide open, and how quickly the engine brakes the car when you close the throttle.  (Note:  Do not turn the ignition back on while the car is moving, or you will likely blow the muffler up!)

So, it seems that they DID know what they were doing, and got quite low friction with all the mechanical works spinning.

The Honda Civic Hybrid does not really have a "pure EV mode", you cannot start from a standstill in pure EV, but you can run for very short distances or down a slight hill as a pure EV, or just coast with NO energy input, when plain inertia and potential energy are sufficient.

Jon
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: james_s on August 16, 2018, 01:19:00 am
Well all of my cars qualify as old in that sense, newest I've ever owned is a 1990, every car I've had has a proper manual gearbox. I think I'll take your word for it though rather than actually trying that.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: nctnico on August 16, 2018, 05:54:20 am
Still I think it should read 'all valves open' and probably only the exhaust valves as to not damage the throttle and inlet because the inlet is usually made from plastic nowadays. With the valves closed you'll get compression and thus losses in the engine.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: james_s on August 16, 2018, 06:53:31 am
That was my first thought, but most modern engines are of the interference design so if the valves are left open the pistons crash and that's a really ugly situation. It may be that the valves being closed causes the pistons to behave like a reasonably efficient spring, the energy spent compressing the air is returned to the crank on the downstroke since no pumping is taking place.

I don't want to derail the thread more than I already have though.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: nctnico on August 16, 2018, 11:25:57 am
That was my first thought, but most modern engines are of the interference design so if the valves are left open the pistons crash and that's a really ugly situation. It may be that the valves being closed causes the pistons to behave like a reasonably efficient spring, the energy spent compressing the air is returned to the crank on the downstroke since no pumping is taking place.
You have a point there but the laws of thermodynamics may not agree with an closed of cylinder being an efficient spring. When a gas is being compressed, it gets hot so there must be more to it than just keeping the valves closed. But yes while interesting, this is off-topic.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: jmelson on August 16, 2018, 09:56:30 pm
Still I think it should read 'all valves open' and probably only the exhaust valves as to not damage the throttle and inlet because the inlet is usually made from plastic nowadays. With the valves closed you'll get compression and thus losses in the engine.
But, the compression is (almost) exactly balanced by expansion, so the only losses are mechanical friction.  Anyway, this whole system actually works quite well, and has been rock-solid reliable, which pretty much amazes me.

Jon
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: f4eru on August 17, 2018, 10:08:30 am
Yes, but it's pretty much obsolete by today's standards.
Because the entirety of the primary energy is still only gasoline, with it's very bad efficiency in a car engine of about 15%

Today, in state of the art vehicles and systems the primary energy required for moving the same car is reduced by a very huge factor:
- factor 2.5x reduction supposing an unlikely using 100% fossil fuels based electricity feeding a BEV through the grid
- factor 8x reduction supposing wind or hydro energy based electricity feeding a BEV through the grid
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: boffin on August 17, 2018, 10:20:55 pm
Still I think it should read 'all valves open' and probably only the exhaust valves as to not damage the throttle and inlet because the inlet is usually made from plastic nowadays. With the valves closed you'll get compression and thus losses in the engine.
But, the compression is (almost) exactly balanced by expansion, so the only losses are mechanical friction.  Anyway, this whole system actually works quite well, and has been rock-solid reliable, which pretty much amazes me.

Jon

It will be with the exhaust valves open.  Compressing air 9:1 generates a lot of heat taking energy out of the system.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: james_s on August 17, 2018, 10:25:37 pm
It will be with the exhaust valves open.  Compressing air 9:1 generates a lot of heat taking energy out of the system.

Doesn't letting that air expand absorb most of that same heat? Obviously this is not 100% efficient but nothing is. With the valves open there will be pumping losses due to the restrictions, with the valves closed there will be increased friction losses due to the greater mechanical forces on the pistons and crank but some of the energy used compressing the air will be recovered as the air expands.

I'm not an expert on these matters but I'm going to assume the Honda engineers knew what they were doing and performed extensive testing to verify the scheme had a net positive result.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: jmelson on August 20, 2018, 02:36:48 am
It will be with the exhaust valves open.  Compressing air 9:1 generates a lot of heat taking energy out of the system.
Believe me, I have studied what Honda did with the Civic Hybrid, they close ALL valves during shutdown and coasting.  This actually has lower losses than with some valves open, as passing gas past open valves causes fluid friction.  If you compressed gas and then let it escape, it sure would cause losses.  (That's what big trucks do when using engine braking, they compress intake air and then let it out by opening the exhaust valves early.)
But, with all valves closed and the pistons QUICKLY cycling up and down in a hot engine block, very little energy is lost from the air to the block.
The trick is the heat of compression is almost totally balanced when the cylinder charge expands as the piston goes back down, just milliseconds later.

The Honda scheme does it by using engine oil to push the cam followers sideways so they don't push on the valve tips.  Also, engine oil is used to drive the rotary cylinder that alters the intake cam timing.  Damn intricate system, but I've never heard of it going wrong.

Jon
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: f4eru on August 21, 2018, 04:49:57 pm
Yay, Model 3 production is running well now :
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-tracker/ (https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-tracker/)
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on September 11, 2018, 09:29:04 am
If you open the exhaust valve of a cilynder that's inactive exhaust gases would try to enter the cylinder because there's a higher pressure in the exhaust than in the cylinder.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on September 11, 2018, 09:47:14 am
Let's try again to put this into the EV fanboys' heads: to the kWh/km figures you see on the dashboard, you've got to add the charger+battery round trip losses, this guy says the overall efficiency of a Model 3 is ~80%, which means to get the real figure you've got to divide the dashboard numbers by 0.8. For example, if your EV dashboard says 233 Wh/mile the real thing is 233/0.8 = 291 Wh/mile, or 18 kWh/100 km for the europeans.

https://youtu.be/x0MjZOR89Fk

Note that that ~ 80% figure is an average though, the real losses in a supergharger are more than that, JFYI, and charging repeatedly at a supercharger shortens the life of the battery, or, IOW, damages it. Hyundai says it very clearly in the ioniq BEV owners' manual, Tesla, IDK.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: mtdoc on September 11, 2018, 11:12:22 am
It takes a special kind of EV hater to spend their time looking through youtube videos about EVs just to find one to try and support a lost argument from weeks ago. And then to post it in multiple threads ::)

Get over it George. It doesn’t matter whether round trip charge efficiency is 80%, 85% or 90%.  The energy effiiency and cost of ownership of a typical EV will still be far better than a typical ICE only vehicle.

We get it. You are opposed to EVs. This thread was meant to be for people with personal experiences with EVs.

Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on September 11, 2018, 03:48:32 pm
It takes a special kind of EV hater [...] We get it. You are opposed to EVs. This thread was meant to be for people with personal experiences with EVs.

Look, you're making things up: my twizy is now almost 7 years old. I just want the EV fanboys to learn how to count kWh. Take it easy.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: The Soulman on September 11, 2018, 04:16:00 pm
...my twizy is now almost 7 years old...

What mileage do you get with your twizy?
I'm looking at buying one, is 10Km per KWh a reasonable number to calculate with?
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on September 11, 2018, 04:34:04 pm
Rest assured it can do 60..70 km per charge, pedal to the floor, more (closer to 100km) if you drive like a grandma. Driving on ~ flat roads, not uphill.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: janoc on September 11, 2018, 05:11:10 pm
It takes a special kind of EV hater to spend their time looking through youtube videos about EVs just to find one to try and support a lost argument from weeks ago. And then to post it in multiple threads ::)

Get over it George. It doesn’t matter whether round trip charge efficiency is 80%, 85% or 90%.  The energy effiiency and cost of ownership of a typical EV will still be far better than a typical ICE only vehicle.

We get it. You are opposed to EVs. This thread was meant to be for people with personal experiences with EVs.

Notice the country he is from.

Regardless of whether those efficiency numbers are valid, his costs (and mine too, if I was to buy an EV here in France) would be totally different than yours.

Here a pure EV costs about 50%-75% more than a comparable gasoline car, pushing prices of even small cars to ridiculous levels. You would be very hard pressed to find an EV under 33k-35k euro here (except for Renault Zoe but there you need to add also the monthly "battery rental" fee - yes, Renault is that retarded). For a 35k I can have a much better/larger gasoline (or even diesel) car, e.g. Mercedes C class or some BMW.

Also, if you don't own a house (a lot more people in Europe live in flats than houses vs the situation in your country) then you don't have where to charge it except for public chargers at supermarkets at such. That's extremely impractical as few people live nearby those. So all that wonderful electric fuel economy is worth exactly zero to me if I can't charge the car ...

The price and the fact that most of the current car owners wouldn't be able to have an access to a fast charger (not 15+ hours from a regular outlet, never mind that most parkings don't have even such outlets available) is one of the largest issues preventing faster adoption of EVs in Europe.

Owning a second "backup" car tends to be also very costly here, especially for large city dwellers who have to rent parking places (even in the street!) or a garage. Insurance, mandatory inspections, etc is non-negligible as well, plus insurance in most EU countries is per car, not per driver, so these costs add up very quickly if you own multiple vehicles.

And renting a car for an occasional long trip? Well, in that case it is often cheaper to take a plane than to deal with the rental here. Decent car is ~100 euro/day + gas/mileage from the usual outfits like Europcar or Avis. If I had to rent one to visit my parents 1500km from where I live, as I have done few weeks ago with my Seat Leon, I would pay about 1000 euro for the 10 days rental alone, then about 250 euro gas*. You can fly to the US and back for that and you will still have money left. Renting for such trip is just not a viable option. Been there done that ...

So you need to qualify those generalizations with: "The energy efficiency and cost of ownership of a typical EV will still be far better than a typical ICE only vehicle if you live in the US" (and, ideally, are able to afford a Tesla where you get free/subsidized SuperChargers everywhere), otherwise it is totally meaningless.

I would love to replace my diesel with an EV but it just doesn't make any sense at this point - even though 90% of my driving is just a short commute to/from work and shopping where an EV would have been ideal.

*(and possibly wouldn't be able to rent it at all because many rentals still forbid driving to the former Eastern Bloc countries, EU or not EU ... But that's a different debate)
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: janoc on September 11, 2018, 05:16:13 pm
Rest assured it can do 60..70 km per charge, pedal to the floor, more (closer to 100km) if you drive like a grandma. Driving on ~ flat roads, not uphill.

I think you are the first person I have heard to even own one of these. I have seen it at a local Renault dealership, but that's more an expensive go-cart than a car :) Do they also charge the battery rental fees for these things (like they do for the Zoe)?
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: mtdoc on September 11, 2018, 05:17:42 pm
So you need to qualify those generalizations with: "The energy efficiency and cost of ownership of a typical EV will still be far better than a typical ICE only vehicle if you live in the US".

By cost of ownership I was referring to what you pay to run and maintain a vehicle - not purchase price. Unless someone's cost of electricity is outrageously expensive or they are getting gasonline or diesel for free, the lower cost of ownership in that sense is a universal attribute of EVs. 

It's true that if a EVs purchase price is drastically more expensive than the equivalent ICE then over the lifetime, the lower fuel and maintenance price may not allow one to recoup the difference in purchase price. 

But of course if the argument is that the only car worth owning is the one with the cheapest overall lifetime cost - then the only cars worth owning would be very inexpensive, used tin cans.  Clearly there are other factors which go into people's automobile  purchase decisions.

Quote
(and, ideally, are able to afford a Tesla where you get free/subsidized SuperChargers everywhere)

At this time, Tesla's are the luxury end of EVs.  Most EV owners (PHEV and BEV) cannot afford a Tesla.


Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: boffin on September 11, 2018, 05:35:36 pm
Let's look at costs here in Western Canada (Vancouver)
EV $32k (after $5k grant)
ICE $26k
Here I'm comparing a VW eGolf vs a VW Golf (similarly equipped)

Cost of Operation:
EV: 18kWh/100km (real world experience, about 15kWh/100 before charging losses) @ C$0.085/kWh = C$1.53/100km
ICE: 8.5l/100km (NRC Combined) @ 1.469/l = $12.49/100km

Cost of Maintenance:
The EV will have an advantage, the typical service interval is 2yrs/30,000km. No oil changes every 10k

I'll make up that $6000 difference before 60,000km even without the maintenance savings.  In reality it will be faster, because some charging is done at free charging sites, and not at home.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: janoc on September 11, 2018, 05:37:12 pm
So you need to qualify those generalizations with: "The energy efficiency and cost of ownership of a typical EV will still be far better than a typical ICE only vehicle if you live in the US".

By cost of ownership I was referring to what you pay to run and maintain a vehicle - not purchase price. Unless someone's cost of electricity is outrageously expensive or they are getting gasonline or diesel for free, the lower cost of ownership in that sense is a universal attribute of EVs. 


I do understand your point but the running economy is only part of the equations. If you can't charge the EV then it won't help you much that you have a cheap electricity.

There is also part that is the utility value of the car - if I have to choose between a Twingo-sized electric Zoe that barely seats two adults or e.g. my Leon which is still considered a "compact" car (it would come to +- same price), then I am going to pick the Leon even if it costs more to run it over its lifetime*. The value is much better because I can actually transport people and things with it.

*(Mostly on maintenance. Although with the Zoe you have to pay about 100 euro/month for "battery rental" - a full tank of gas costs less than that even here where the gas is much more expensive than the US ...).

Quote
(and, ideally, are able to afford a Tesla where you get free/subsidized SuperChargers everywhere)
At this time, Tesla's are the luxury end of EVs.  Most EV owners (PHEV and BEV) cannot afford a Tesla.

Yes, sure. However, why I was mentioning that is that Tesla is the only one who is both subsidizing the fast charging (either totally free for or they are now charging the new owners a steeply discounted price) and actually has a fast charger network built in the US (much less in Europe, though). That is going to skew things a lot. So if you can afford a Tesla, you have a reasonable chance of getting a good utility value out of your car. People who can't do that and have to buy cheaper vehicles don't have such advantage, so that will make the electric or even plug-in hybrid cars much less attractive for them. Especially as many hybrids (whether plug-in or not) are electric only in a very token fashion and after a few kilometers you need to run the gasoline engine anyway.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: nctnico on September 11, 2018, 05:46:02 pm
Cost of Maintenance:
The EV will have an advantage, the typical service interval is 2yrs/30,000km. No oil changes every 10k
A modern ICE needs an oil change every 25k to 30k km so there is no real difference there when it comes to service intervals. What is more interesting are the costs after driving 100k km and 200k km. People seem to forget there is much more to an EV than a piece of copper wire wound around bits of metal that makes it go. I strongly doubt an EV will be cheaper to run because the overall complexity of the car hasn't been reduced. Think about the drive electronics and battery cooling/heating system for starters. Earlier I posted some links showing the maintenance for an EV was more expensive compared to a similar ICE based car.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: mtdoc on September 11, 2018, 05:52:24 pm
A modern ICE needs an oil change every 25k to 30k km so there is no real difference there when it comes to service intervals.

But an BEV will require no oil change and an PHEV driven mostly in EV mode may only  require an oil change every 90k to 100k km (or less often).

An EV will require very rare brake service whereas a typical ICE brake service is a regular high cost.

An EV will not require any transmission or clutch service whereas a typical ICE  service theses is very expensive.

Also an ICEs cooling system is much more prone to problems and need of reqular service than an ICEs.

If you actually owned an EV you might realize that there is no comparison in terms of service intervals or maintenence costs. EVs are hands down - much less expensive to maintain.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on September 11, 2018, 05:54:41 pm
And there are no 3rd party parts... so good luck if the inverter blows up, or if one cell of the 7 thousand 18650s dies out of warranty, or even if the dashboard "ipad" goes west.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: The Soulman on September 11, 2018, 05:58:14 pm
Rest assured it can do 60..70 km per charge, pedal to the floor, more (closer to 100km) if you drive like a grandma. Driving on ~ flat roads, not uphill.

Thanks, my longest trips would be max. 30 Km between recharges, so the range I'm not concerned about.
More interested in the economic side, as the Netherlands is one of the few country's where it is not possible to purchase the battery,
instead it most be leased at 65 euro per month (with maximum 10.000 Km per year).
So it is very close to the costs of a "normal" small car and I'm calculating if it will be cost efficient at all.

I don't drive in heavy traffic and it is as flat as a pancake here, is 80 Km per charge (6 KWh) reasonable?
So (80Km/6KWh)*0,85 (charging efficiency) = 11 Km per KWh?

Last but not least, what version do you have 45 or 80 Kmh?
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: bicycleguy on September 11, 2018, 06:08:36 pm
I've tracked my electricity use since 1978.  Attached is my use since the current house.
Can you guess when I purchased a Chevy Spark.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: nctnico on September 11, 2018, 06:09:53 pm
A modern ICE needs an oil change every 25k to 30k km so there is no real difference there when it comes to service intervals.

But an BEV will require no oil change and an PHEV driven mostly in EV mode may only  require an oil change every 90k to 100k km (or less often).

An EV will require very rare brake service whereas a typical ICE brake service is a regular high cost.

An EV will not require any transmission or clutch service whereas a typical ICE  service theses is very expensive.

Also an ICEs cooling system is much more prone to problems and need of reqular service than an ICEs.

If you actually owned an EV you might realize that there is no comparison in terms of service intervals or maintenence costs. EVs are hands down - much less expensive to maintain.
I'm starting to wonder if you ever had a good ICE based car and/or get screwed by the dealer you take your cars for service. For example brakes are extremely easy and cheap to service/replace. It shouldn't take more than half an hour to replace the pads. It shouldn't cost more than 60 to 70 euro.

Also I never had any of the problems you listed except on cars which where end-of-life (over 320k km). To give an example: the running costs of my cars has been between 13  and 17 euro cents per km. But then again I carefully select my cars for lowest TCO.

I think you should take off your pink glasses. An EV has a more complicated cooling system which is basically is an airconditioning. An aircondition in a car needs to be serviced about every 4 years due to inherent leakage of the refridgerant. An EV has wheel bearings, a transmission (fixed), drive axles with homokinetic joints, shock absorbers, etc, etc which all need repairs at some point. Due to the higher weight I'd suspect an EV will need more frequent change of tires as well. And not to forget the possible replacement of the battery pack at some point.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on September 11, 2018, 06:15:27 pm
Rest assured it can do 60..70 km per charge, pedal to the floor, more (closer to 100km) if you drive like a grandma. Driving on ~ flat roads, not uphill.

Thanks, my longest trips would be max. 30 Km between recharges, so the range I'm not concerned about.
More interested in the economic side, as the Netherlands is one of the few country's where it is not possible to purchase the battery,
instead it most be leased at 65 euro per month (with maximum 10.000 Km per year).
So it is very close to the costs of a "normal" small car and I'm calculating if it will be cost efficient at all.

Cost efficient? Maybe not, to buy a twizy you have to like it :-) and have to have a garage, and can't leave it alone anywhere in the street because it's got no doors, and no A/C so only can take it when the weather is alright, and...

Quote
I don't drive in heavy traffic and it is as flat as a pancake here, is 80 Km per charge (6 KWh) reasonable?
So (80Km/6KWh)*0,85 (charging efficiency) = 11 Km per KWh?

That's about right, if your right foot isn't too heavy.

Quote
Last but not least, what version do you have 45 or 80 Kmh?

The 80.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on September 11, 2018, 06:19:17 pm
Fanboys like to repeat ad nauseam, like broken records, that EVs are "less complicated" when in fact they are more complicated, and have more parts than an ICE. A Tesla about seven thousand parts more to begin with.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: nctnico on September 11, 2018, 06:21:28 pm
I also looked at the Twizy but the lack of doors and needing to lease the battery made me dismiss it. In the NL the period with nice weather is about 5 months. Also the Twizy is too wide to manoeuvre through a traffic jam. It could be a good solution for specific trips if the situation on the road is suitable for such a small vehicle.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: mtdoc on September 11, 2018, 06:27:15 pm

I'm starting to wonder if you ever had a good ICE based car and/or get screwed by the dealer you take your cars for service.

You're just spewing nonsense now.

I've owned approximately 20 ICE vehicles over 40 years.  I bought my first car - a used Datsun 510 at age 16.  Until about 10 years ago, I did almost all the service myself - oil changes, brake jobs, transmission service.  I have rebuilt ICE engines, changed several clutches.  I never have rebuilt a transmission.

Even when I was doing my own service, the cost of maintenance of an ICE was not cheap.

I've owned a PHEV (Chevy Volt) for 4 years now. Total cost of maintenance has been $50 for one oil change (The second one, which I just had done. The first oil change was free). Brake pads are still at  > 90%. Other than another oil change every 2 years or so, the only regular maintenance cost I anticipate in the next 5 -10 years is a set of new tires and some windshield wiper blades.

My experience is typical. Just look at the Chevy Volt forum or any EV forum. Most of whose members have long experience with ICE vehicles.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: The Soulman on September 11, 2018, 06:39:30 pm
I also looked at the Twizy but the lack of doors and needing to lease the battery made me dismiss it. In the NL the period with nice weather is about 5 months. Also the Twizy is too wide to manoeuvre through a traffic jam. It could be a good solution for specific trips if the situation on the road is suitable for such a small vehicle.

Doors are available as an option, windows are available as well (at least aftermarket).
I've driven one a couple of years ago and I like it, and beats riding a electric bicycle: more shelter, higher top speed, ability to carry a passenger, etc etc.
Yes I do have a beard and like to wear fleece lol.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: GeorgeOfTheJungle on September 11, 2018, 06:39:53 pm
JFTR, the transmission of a Volt is orders of magnitude more complicated than that of a normal ICE.

https://gm-volt.com/2009/11/09/engineering-design-of-the-chevy-volts-two-electric-motors/
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: mtdoc on September 11, 2018, 06:50:30 pm
JFTR, the transmission of a Volt is orders of magnitude more complicated than that of a normal ICE.

https://gm-volt.com/2009/11/09/engineering-design-of-the-chevy-volts-two-electric-motors/

I've seen no one claim that an EV is less complicated.

More complicated does not necessarily mean less reliable or more expensive to maintain.

Early ICE vehicles were very simple and very expensive to maintain.

Everyone on this forum should understand that a well designed and built modern electronic device is much more reliable and easier to maintain than earlier generation less complicated electronics or, god forbid, mechanical devices.

There are Chevy Volts that have been on the road for 8 or 9 years now - some with 200k miles on them. They have proven to be extremely reliable vehicles.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: janoc on September 11, 2018, 06:57:22 pm
Seriously, I don't know what you drove (or whether the American cars are so crappy!) but e.g. my Leon is 9 years old and still on the same brakes (pads and discs) as when I got it in 2012. Granted, I do maybe 15k kilometers a year only. But even then the replacement would be around 300 euro, work included.

What sort of service does your transmission need? Older cars needed oil change every few years, more modern ones don't need that or the intervals are fairly long (60k km and more). That's for stick shift cars or something like the VW DSG (dual clutch) transmissions, though. Automatics are possibly more demanding - didn't own one, so no idea how much that costs.

Clutch? Again, how often do you change that for it to even be a factor? Clutch should last at least 150k kilometers, possibly more if you don't drive like an idiot. Certainly didn't need to change it so far, even though the car has 130k on the odo.

Most of my maintenance costs are annual oil change (+ filters), cleaning the AC, replacing the brake and cooling fluid every two years and occasional small fix like wheel geometry adjustment or AC refill. These things cost about 300-400 euro/year at the dealership and most of them will need to be done regardless of whether you have electric or regular car. Then small stuff like wiper blades, light bulbs, filling up the windshield washer liquid, new battery two years ago, etc.

Out of the larger repairs I had to replace the timing belt & accessories (at 120k km) which was about 800 euro. And then later shocks will  need to be changed, which is about the same amount. But that is something you do maybe twice or three times tops during the life of the car.

Maybe I am very lucky that I didn't have to do expensive repairs with this car yet but then I had a Clio before it was pretty much the same story - despite paying premium for having it serviced at the Renault dealership (I had it across the road from where I live).
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: nctnico on September 11, 2018, 06:58:32 pm
There are Chevy Volts that have been on the road for 8 or 9 years now - some with 200k miles on them. They have proven to be extremely reliable vehicles.
This is amusingly ridiculous. You can go on any used car website and find many ICE cars with 200k (or more) miles on them which still drive well and will do so for many miles/kilometer more. I can find nearly 2500 on a used car website targeted at the NL. The days a car was ready for demolition after 100k km are long gone (decades ago).

@Janoc: your 150k km is a bit low. On my previous two cars the clutch failed at 300k km and 340k km. On my current car it is still good at 300k km.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: janoc on September 11, 2018, 07:04:48 pm
@Janoc: your 150k km is a bit low. On my previous two cars the clutch failed at 300k km and 340k km. On my current car it is still good at 300k km.

I believe that, I was quoting the manufacturer's ratings which tend to be very conservative. I am sure the real world values are more than that. The clutch in my car is also going strong still.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: mtdoc on September 11, 2018, 07:09:43 pm
There are Chevy Volts that have been on the road for 8 or 9 years now - some with 200k miles on them. They have proven to be extremely reliable vehicles.
This is amusingly ridiculous. You can go on any used car website and find ICE cars with 200k (or more) miles on them which still drive well and will do so for many miles/kilometer more. The days a car was ready for demolition after 100k km are long gone (decades ago).

You are being transparently disingenuous.

 I never claimed that modern ICE cars are not also reliable. I was responding to the insinuation by George and your earlier post that because EVs are complicated that that makes them somehow less reliable or more subject to maintenance costs - both of which are demonstrably false.

You seem to have a pattern of going into multiple threads and making multiple posts spewing nonsense about equipment that you don't own and therefore don't like -  EVs, Apple products, any Oscilloscope that s  not a GW Instek or MicSig, etc, etc.   What's up with that?  ::)

Since you have no experience with an EV, why are you posting in this thread?
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: free_electron on September 11, 2018, 08:58:07 pm
Let's try again to put this into the EV fanboys' heads: to the kWh/km figures you see on the dashboard, you've got to add the charger+battery round trip losses,"
What charger roundtrip?. You charge AT HOME. Zero roundtrip loss! Unless you have a gasoline pump at home : you can't do that in an ICE ...
The public chargers are there for your convenience and to enable long trips, just like for regular fuel pumps. They are not for daily usage. That is a big misconception.

A charger for an EV is equivalent to a fuel pump for an ICE.
You can't fill up an ICE at home. (unless you own a fuel pump)

You CAN fill up an EV at home. (simply plug in overnight)
You CAN fill up an EV at work. (many companies install chargers for their employees)
You CAN fill up an EV at many shopping malls , public parkings (many shopping malls and public parkings install chargers for EV's)

It's a matter of plugging the thing in when you come home.
On a standard 240 volt outlet at 30 ampere , assuming i plug the thing in at 8PM , i get 10 hours of charge by 6AM... That's 60 Kilowatts... More than half my battery pack. Not a problem. If i get an 80 Amp charger i can blast the battery full (100Kw) in less than 6 hours.

Again : the superchargers are there to let you drive long distance. I went to Lake Tahoe last weekend. Left home with a full battery , Stopped in Manteca after a 2 hour drive, topped it off while going pipi and grabbing an icecream. Drove all the way To Stateline, Nevada. Pulled in to Hard Rock casino, plugged in car, went for dinner and my pack was completely full. Drove around Tahoe , went to Reno , topped off at the Gigafactory back to Tahoe. On the way back home we left Tahoe with 170 miles of range. We hit Sacramento with 176 miles of range ! I ended up with more range because Tahoe is at an altitude of 6000ft. Most of the trajectory was downhill so consumption was zilch. Actually regeneration pushed the battery up to over 210 miles of range at one point. In sacramento we did another bathroom stop and grabbed a sandwich from Subway. By the time we were back at the car (we hadn't eaten sandwich yet, just picked up) the counter was at 265 miles. We drove another 3 hours to get home and had 70 miles remaining ...

A couple of weeks ago we spent time in Clear Lake. there is imply plugged in to a regular 110 volts 10 ampere outlet. That gives me roughly 4 miles per hour of charge. Whenever we were at the house i plugged in. Overnight that gave me easily 50+ miles. ( arrive at 7pm , leave next day around 9AM : which is 14 hours of charging). More than enough to compensate the driving around the area.

Large packs is the key.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: boffin on September 11, 2018, 09:05:42 pm
Cost of Maintenance:
The EV will have an advantage, the typical service interval is 2yrs/30,000km. No oil changes every 10k
A modern ICE needs an oil change every 25k to 30k km so there is no real difference there when it comes to service intervals. What is more interesting are the costs after driving 100k km and 200k km. People seem to forget there is much more to an EV than a piece of copper wire wound around bits of metal that makes it go. I strongly doubt an EV will be cheaper to run because the overall complexity of the car hasn't been reduced. Think about the drive electronics and battery cooling/heating system for starters. Earlier I posted some links showing the maintenance for an EV was more expensive compared to a similar ICE based car.

let's not do this again, where I show you a real world value, and you pick the outlying (non-warranty approved in this case) edge case of oil every 25,000km.
Compare Apples to Apples, warranty approved maintenance schedules; per VW Service per https://owners.vwmodels.ca/maintenance/timeline/

All vehicles require 'inspections', but these are the required replacement items

VW Golf service
15k oil, filter & plug
30k oil, filter & plug, pollen filter
45k oil, filter & plug
60k oil, filter & plug, pollen filter, spark plugs
75k oil, filter & plug
90k oil, filter & plug, oil plug gasket, pollen filter, air filter
105k oil, filter & plug
120k oil, filter & plug, pollen filter, spark plugs
135k oil, filter & plug
150k oil, filter & plug, pollen filter
165k oil, filter & plug
180k oil, filter & plug, pollen filter, air filter, spark plugs

VW eGolf service
15k none
30k pollen filter
45k none
60k pollen filter
75k none
90k pollen filter
105k none
120k pollen filter
135k none
150k pollen filter
165k none
180k pollen filter







Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: boffin on September 11, 2018, 09:11:09 pm
... I bought my first car - a used Datsun 510 at age 16.  Until about 10 years ago, I did almost all the service myself - oil changes, brake jobs, transmission service.  I have rebuilt ICE engines, changed several clutches.  I never have rebuilt a transmission.

A fine choice.  My 1st car was a 510 as well. The L engines were completely bulletproof, sadly the body was biodegradable.  Did almost all my service in the driveway as well.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: mtdoc on September 11, 2018, 09:39:49 pm
... I bought my first car - a used Datsun 510 at age 16.  Until about 10 years ago, I did almost all the service myself - oil changes, brake jobs, transmission service.  I have rebuilt ICE engines, changed several clutches.  I never have rebuilt a transmission.

A fine choice.  My 1st car was a 510 as well. The L engines were completely bulletproof, sadly the body was biodegradable.  Did almost all my service in the driveway as well.

I loved that car. It was a sleeper performance car the time - popular with street racers.  I did some performance mods that unfortunately meant it would not pass the California smog inspection at the time. Had to buy the local alcoholic smog inspector a bottle of Seagrams 7 to get him to pass it.  True story.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: julianhigginson on September 12, 2018, 06:19:18 am
you can drive around Australia in an EV for $150 in electricity.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/sep/12/how-much-does-it-cost-to-power-an-electric-car-around-australia-150?CMP=soc_567 (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/sep/12/how-much-does-it-cost-to-power-an-electric-car-around-australia-150?CMP=soc_567)
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: nctnico on September 12, 2018, 08:13:09 pm
Cost of Maintenance:
The EV will have an advantage, the typical service interval is 2yrs/30,000km. No oil changes every 10k
A modern ICE needs an oil change every 25k to 30k km so there is no real difference there when it comes to service intervals. What is more interesting are the costs after driving 100k km and 200k km. People seem to forget there is much more to an EV than a piece of copper wire wound around bits of metal that makes it go. I strongly doubt an EV will be cheaper to run because the overall complexity of the car hasn't been reduced. Think about the drive electronics and battery cooling/heating system for starters. Earlier I posted some links showing the maintenance for an EV was more expensive compared to a similar ICE based car.
let's not do this again, where I show you a real world value, and you pick the outlying (non-warranty approved in this case) edge case of oil every 25,000km.
The only thing you are showing is that an ICE VW Golf is expensive to maintain. My own Ford Focus from 2006 needs an oil change every 20k km according to the manual. And there are cars out there with even longer oil change intervals. Saying that longer intervals are non-warranty approved is just nonsense. If it says 20k km in the manual from the manufacturer then it is warranty approved.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: mtdoc on September 12, 2018, 11:33:14 pm
My own Ford Focus from 2006 needs an oil change every 20k km according to the manual.

Really?  Why does Ford say oil changes should be  every 5000 mi (8000 km) for pre 2008 cars and every 7500 mi (12000 km) for newer cars? (https://owner.ford.com/how-tos/vehicle-features/engine/know-when-to-change-your-engine-oil.html)

In any case you’re flogging a dead horse again with your apples to oranges comparison.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: james_s on September 13, 2018, 03:26:51 am
Either way the endless EV-bashing mental gymnastics are a bit tiresome to say the least. IMHO someone who has never owned or even driven one really has nothing to stand on, it's just a baseless religious argument polluting an otherwise constructive thread.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: CCitizenTO on September 13, 2018, 08:14:38 pm
Rental cars are cheap in the US. $30-40 a day, $200-300 for a week with unlimited miles. Auto insurance alone in most parts of the US will cost you $1000 a year per vehicle for liability coverage alone.
My car insurance costs way less but due to not claiming anything for many years got me a hefty discount.

Those low rental prices usually are for very small cars. If you want a decent car the price nearly doubles and then there is the extra insurance. But as I wrote before I already tried to 'optimise' cars. My previous car was a sedan. My thinking was: I don't need a station wagon every day and I'll sort things out when I need to transport something large. Well that turned out to be a really bad idea. Fortunately my wife had a relatively large hatch-back so I could use that to transport larger items but it still didn't do the job well. I recall buying a couple of windows but those where too large for the lid to close so I had to drive around to find a shopping mall first to but a piece of rope to tie it shut. Same for a dish-washer and many other items. Buying a car which can't do the 1% you need every now and then just sucks. Nowadays I'm back to the station wagon. I hope this underlines my point when I'm saying that buying a car which can only do 99% (or less) of the use cases is going to be a nuisance because it doesn't deliver when you need it the most.

You don't need a cube van every day but if you have to move from one place to another you can always rent one from U-Haul. Pretty much the same thing you're talking about. If you can't fit the dish washer in the car then maybe you need to pay a few bucks and have it delivered rather than renting a car for the purpose.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: sokoloff on September 13, 2018, 08:17:44 pm
I rent a trailer from UHaul probably 1.5 times per year on average. I'm surely not going to pick my daily driver sized for the largest thing I'll ever move and 99.5% of the time be driving around in something that comically large, all to avoid a $25 charge every 8 months or so...
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: boffin on September 13, 2018, 08:33:06 pm
My own Ford Focus from 2006 needs an oil change every 20k km according to the manual.

Really?  Why does Ford say oil changes should be  every 5000 mi (8000 km) for pre 2008 cars and every 7500 mi (12000 km) for newer cars? (https://owner.ford.com/how-tos/vehicle-features/engine/know-when-to-change-your-engine-oil.html)

In any case you’re flogging a dead horse again with your apples to oranges comparison.


He's completely obsessed with Ford, so let's feed him new and 2006 Ford data.

Yeah, here in Canada the documentation says 12,000-16,000km for new cars under 'normal' conditions, it's controlled by how much load the car feels it's been under.
https://www.ford.ca/resources/ford/general/pdf/service/414919_ServiceBrochure_8.5x11_EN.pdf (https://www.ford.ca/resources/ford/general/pdf/service/414919_ServiceBrochure_8.5x11_EN.pdf)

As for older cars, I couldn't find the Canadian reference, but the US 2006 schedule is every 5000mi (8000km)
http://www.fordservicecontent.com/Ford_Content/catalog/owner_guides/06mermg3e.pdf (http://www.fordservicecontent.com/Ford_Content/catalog/owner_guides/06mermg3e.pdf)
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: nctnico on September 14, 2018, 07:33:58 pm
My own Ford Focus from 2006 needs an oil change every 20k km according to the manual.
Really?  Why does Ford say oil changes should be  every 5000 mi (8000 km) for pre 2008 cars and every 7500 mi (12000 km) for newer cars? (https://owner.ford.com/how-tos/vehicle-features/engine/know-when-to-change-your-engine-oil.html)

In any case you’re flogging a dead horse again with your apples to oranges comparison.
He's completely obsessed with Ford, so let's feed him new and 2006 Ford data.

Yeah, here in Canada the documentation says 12,000-16,000km for new cars under 'normal' conditions, it's controlled by how much load the car feels it's been under.
https://www.ford.ca/resources/ford/general/pdf/service/414919_ServiceBrochure_8.5x11_EN.pdf (https://www.ford.ca/resources/ford/general/pdf/service/414919_ServiceBrochure_8.5x11_EN.pdf)
Perhaps the Fords over there are build to different quality standards needing more maintenance than the European versions. BTW I'm not obsessed with Ford. Actually I was brought up to dislike Ford like southern red-necks dislike colored people and Hillary Clinton. I'm just going for the car with the lowest TCO. Previous cars where from Toyota, Mitsubishi and Mazda.

BTW the same seems to be true for your beloved VW. According to this website (in Dutch) most ICE models (before AND after 2014) need servicing every 30k km.
https://www.volkswagen.nl/service/onderhoud/volkswagen-onderhoudsbeurt (https://www.volkswagen.nl/service/onderhoud/volkswagen-onderhoudsbeurt)
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: SeanB on September 15, 2018, 06:52:26 am
The 20k and 30k service intervals are designed to get the car out of warranty with lowest cost to the manufacturer, as they often come with a motorplan that covers all services for a fixed period or a fixed mileage. However this means the engfine has by then built up signifigant sludge and this causes problems further down the line after the motorplan is up with excessive engine wear and bearing failure. Plenty of VW and Ford engines fail after warranty is expired with that service interval, simply because the sludge build up has caused excessive wear on the engine. The 2.0/2.2 TDI engine is very well known for grenading the oil pump and also wearing the valve train from sludge build up, as it has that long service interval.

Almost as if the manufacturers saying you have to buy a new car every 5 years. Worst id the trio of Renault/Citroen/Peugoet with the cars they build having a designed in 7 year lifetime of major components. Expensive to replace engine and gearbox on a 7 year old car just out of warranty when the bearings, gears, sliding surfaces are all worn past repair. Change the oil a lot more regular and they will last.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: nctnico on September 15, 2018, 07:42:48 am
Plenty of VW and Ford engines fail after warranty is expired with that service interval, simply because the sludge build up has caused excessive wear on the engine. The 2.0/2.2 TDI engine is very well known for grenading the oil pump and also wearing the valve train from sludge build up, as it has that long service interval.
If you look across all the cars then you'll see that many brands have problems with the engines. Most notably the engines made by PSA (French). But also Toyota and VW have had series of engines which are subject to excessive wear. In most cases these problems are fixed outside the warranty as well as part of a recall. Either way: do your homework before buying a used car. I also noticed that not every garage knows which oil to put in a particular car so you need to keep an eye on that as well.

edit: my point is in the end car manufacturers are not going to specify maintenance intervals which shorten the useful life of a car because that will reduce the resale value for the first owner. A shorter useful life makes the car more expensive instead of cheaper.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: a59d1 on October 01, 2018, 12:08:13 am
Actually I was brought up to dislike Ford like southern red-necks dislike colored people and Hillary Clinton.

 :wtf:
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: Wan Huang Luo on November 06, 2018, 05:21:25 pm
BMW i3, spent more time in the shop than out of the shop. Literally in and out of the shop two dozen times over a two year period. I drove loaner BMWs from the dealership more than I drove that electric turd. They even replaced the battery. When the lease ended and that lemon went back to their hands I felt a great sense of relief.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: james_s on November 06, 2018, 05:41:35 pm
I wonder if that's typical? What sort of problems did it have? The i3 is one of the few mainstream EVs I have never known anyone who owned one.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: Wan Huang Luo on November 06, 2018, 05:44:32 pm
Not sure if they were typical or not. I might have just been handed a lemon. Most of the issues related to the two-cylinder engine as mine was the range extended variant.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: coppice on November 06, 2018, 05:46:42 pm
Not sure if they were typical or not. I might have just been handed a lemon. Most of the issues related to the two-cylinder engine as mine was the range extended variant.
Interesting. Was it the engine itself, or the way it integrates with the car? I thought they used a proven engine from other applications.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: Wan Huang Luo on November 06, 2018, 07:19:27 pm
The engine oxygen sensors, emissions sensors, fuel filler door sensor, this sensor, that sensor, ...  were repeated points of failure
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: james_s on November 06, 2018, 10:27:48 pm
If I were going to get an EV, I'd get a pure EV. One of the big attractions is not having to deal with any of that ICE related stuff. I don't want to drag around two separate powerplants and all the associated control gear and energy supply for both.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: jh15 on November 07, 2018, 06:00:59 am
I say when talking anout my S, even before seeing it, they don't want a car with gadgets.

I understood when choosing my car, it would have gadgets.

However, buying any ICE car, you still have gadgets, and soon auto crash sensing, dog poop on seat in rear sensor etc.

You are still dragging around a block of engine to crash into your lap, exhaust, transmission, fluid changes, stinky garage when leaving,

Dealer? We ordered ours, factpry to us delivered on a Tesla flatbed. (the guy wished they would get rid of the ICE delivery vehicle.

And like planned appleescence, you can be sure your dealer will either milk you on this or say no longer supported, your engine controller is "vintage". While trying you to upsell o another car on their lot.
Our car keeps getting better without trading in.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: Wan Huang Luo on November 07, 2018, 02:26:51 pm
If I were going to get an EV, I'd get a pure EV. One of the big attractions is not having to deal with any of that ICE related stuff. I don't want to drag around two separate powerplants and all the associated control gear and energy supply for both.
Great point; the "REx" in the BMW is a pathetic kludge that provided only 70 (!!!) miles of extra range with a gas tank that took only about 1.5 gallons to fill up. I did a 900 mile (each way) road trip with that car. It was awful. If I had access to Tesla-style fast charging and 300 miles real range, that would have been a pleasure instead of a nightmare.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: Red Squirrel on November 07, 2018, 04:24:33 pm
I'd love an electric car, I just wish they were more standard and not a niche product.  I can't justify paying the cost of a new car (any car) so I only buy used and since they are so niche the odds of finding a used one is super slim.

My biggest worry as far as viability would be -40 days but I'm thinking it would be fine.  My work is about 5km from my house so a car that has a 100km advertised range would be more than good enough for me.  ex: even if I got a used where the battery is at like half capacity I'd be ok with that. 

If I had a big heated garage to work in I would consider starting a project car where I do an EV conversion of a gas car.  Would be a pretty neat project.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: james_s on November 07, 2018, 04:28:29 pm
No need to buy a new car, most of the people I know who have them bought used. My dad and a friend of mine each bought a Nissan Leaf when a big lot of them came off lease a few years ago, both have been trouble free. Another friend bought a Chevy Bolt a couple years ago, he also has been raving about it non stop, I don't recall what he paid for the Bolt but the Leafs were under $10k. I would never personally buy a brand new car either, I'll gladly let someone else take that big depreciation hit.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: sokoloff on November 07, 2018, 05:06:27 pm
I'd love an electric car, I just wish they were more standard and not a niche product.  I can't justify paying the cost of a new car (any car) so I only buy used and since they are so niche the odds of finding a used one is super slim.

My biggest worry as far as viability would be -40 days but I'm thinking it would be fine.  My work is about 5km from my house so a car that has a 100km advertised range would be more than good enough for me.  ex: even if I got a used where the battery is at like half capacity I'd be ok with that. 

If I had a big heated garage to work in I would consider starting a project car where I do an EV conversion of a gas car.  Would be a pretty neat project.
4 years used is likely to have a 80-90% battery on a LEAF, probably on the higher end of that. In -40° weather, the range will be even worse, but multiple 5km round trips should still be easily, easily doable. Battery heating is the issue. There is an on-board heater that runs (IIRC) when the car is charged above 30% and the battery is below -20°C (-4°F) until the battery is above -10°C (14°F). This heater obviously takes power from the traction pack and cuts into your range (unless you can keep the car plugged in, in which case the heater usage is replenished). Even wit the heating, the range is reduced as cold batteries store less energy than warm batteries. Again, your commute is almost ideal for this.

Buying them used is no problem; the market is thick with them.

On doing a conversion, that was my plan 8+ years ago. Now, the production cars are readily available and have a production car level of fit and finish, so if you want to own an electric, just buy one. If you want to build one, build one, but if the owning and driving is the point, just buy one... :)
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: Red Squirrel on November 08, 2018, 12:56:46 am
I hardly even see any NEW ones so I can't see how there would be a lot on the used market, unless I'd want to start shopping down south.  Though I guess that would be an option once I'm in the market for another car I could just look at down south classifieds instead of local. Can always fly down and then drive it back.

As for battery heater, does it run even when car is just parked?  I would have figured it would only run when you first go to start the car.  Basically use the battery at reduced capacity for a bit, to warm itself up, then the capacity would increase a bit.  I guess there would be a sweet spot there as to how much capacity you really want to use to warm it up so that it makes up for capacity loss if it's cold.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: sokoloff on November 08, 2018, 01:05:05 am
It runs while parked (and under those conditions). I think they all have battery heaters as you can’t really only preheat the battery while running the car and no one wants to turn the car on an hour ahead of time.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: radar_macgyver on November 08, 2018, 01:13:48 am
Not all cars implement active thermal management, a notable one is the Nissan Leaf. They do offer a cold weather package with a heater, but no liquid thermal management system.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: james_s on November 08, 2018, 06:01:17 am
They come in waves as the leases run out, those are typically several years long and then there will be a pile of them for sale. Another wave should be coming up within the next couple of years. They may not be nearly as common in some areas as others but it's not that big of a deal to buy cars from other regions, there are even services out there to locate and transport them. I see new ones all over the place out here, EVs have proven very popular with the tech industry crowd.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: coppice on November 08, 2018, 03:00:16 pm
They come in waves as the leases run out, those are typically several years long and then there will be a pile of them for sale. Another wave should be coming up within the next couple of years. They may not be nearly as common in some areas as others but it's not that big of a deal to buy cars from other regions, there are even services out there to locate and transport them. I see new ones all over the place out here, EVs have proven very popular with the tech industry crowd.
Why would leases run out in waves? Surely a steady stream of leases expire month by month.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: james_s on November 08, 2018, 04:44:15 pm
I don't know, it's just what I've observed, maybe it's the first production run, or maybe people update to the latest model, or maybe people buy cars more certain times of the year. I wouldn't really know, I've always bought old cars from private sellers.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: timgiles on December 14, 2018, 09:44:00 pm
My wife and I private lease a Kia Niro PHEV in Umeå Sweden. It does not have battery heating as far as I know, but the fully EV one (just released) does.

Some good points:

1. Battery charge in very cold weather (-20oC so far) is AOK, charges fine and range seems to be the same
2. 55km is stated electric only range, our commute is 54km and when leaving the car states it has between 54 and 57km each day
3. Charging is adjustable - we have awful electricity supply at home, so we charge at 4-5A for 7-8 hours to recharge each night
4. This can be adjusted up to 16A on the home charger they give you (standard swedish 2 pin plug)
5. The car can also be set to charge at a different rate on commercial chargers (again from 4-5A up to 16A) - so we never have to adjust the car

Some less good points:

1. The heating is provided by a small petrol engine that helps the car along when accelerating hard or low on power
2. This is clearly not set up well for swedish winters - as the car will sit in HEV (hybrid or petrol mode) for ages (40 mins ish) and switch to El only for 2-4 mins and back to HEV for 10-15... rinse and repeat
 Even though the car has plenty of heat in the radiator. You cant stop this from happening unless you turn off the heating in the car (within 1 minute you have frost on the windscreen inside).... so - not great
3. European drivers do not have access to the remote app for the car like yanks do - so there is no preheat in the cabin etc... We can get a fan heater installed, but this is less than optimal.

But - on spring, summer and autumn days, we reduce our commute costs by over 90%. Winter days, warmer than -12oC, the same, colder, it costs us about 50% what our A4 B6 1.8T avant did. So - it will be ok for the 3 years, but we are going fully BEV electric once the lease is complete.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: jh15 on December 27, 2018, 11:53:05 am
My (wife's) model S makes some noises when parked. On really hot or cold days when randomly walked by. The hvac system keeps the battery in range. It is usually plugged in all the time at home, but when lrft unplugged, probably a couple miles/day is sapped out.

The battery thermal management is what gives long life. The Nissan Leaf had poor thermal management and southern hot climate owners were getting battery problems.

On the "Now You Know" podcast the son said he had lost 10% battery range on his I think 2 year old Leaf. I expect a couple or 3 thousand miles on my S battery. No noticeable change in the almodt 2 years now.

I will complain about things, not a sheep.
Ask me anything. Wish I didn't have to keep hands on wheel due to a couple fools early on.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: sokoloff on December 27, 2018, 02:38:44 pm
The battery thermal management is what gives long life. The Nissan Leaf had poor thermal management and southern hot climate owners were getting battery problems.

On the "Now You Know" podcast the son said he had lost 10% battery range on his I think 2 year old Leaf. I expect a couple or 3 thousand miles on my S battery. No noticeable change in the almodt 2 years now.
LEAF owner here. The lack of active thermal management on the LEAF is a poor decision I think. I've lost about 7% over 4 years, which isn't too bad. (Daily driven 5 days a week, but only about 16K total miles.)

I expect a couple or 3 thousand miles on my S battery. No noticeable change in the almodt 2 years now.
I think you missed a factor of 1000 there. If you only got 3 thousand miles on the battery, I bet you'd be super-pissed...  ;)  ;D
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: boffin on December 27, 2018, 04:26:31 pm
I expect a couple or 3 thousand miles on my S battery. No noticeable change in the almodt 2 years now.
I think you missed a factor of 1000 there. If you only got 3 thousand miles on the battery, I bet you'd be super-pissed...  ;)  ;D

Actually the OP missed by a factor of 100, and you missed by a factor of 10.  I'm pretty sure he meant 300,000
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: sokoloff on December 27, 2018, 04:33:54 pm
 :palm:

Yup. Good catch!
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: boffin on December 27, 2018, 04:57:33 pm
My wife and I private lease a Kia Niro PHEV in Umeå Sweden. It does not have battery heating as far as I know, but the fully EV one (just released) does.

Thanks for the insights, it's an interesting read, and addresses some interesting points.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: jh15 on December 31, 2018, 05:05:10 am
Yeah, I missed puttin in a "k" there. expecting a couple hundred k miles.

If wife doesn't run it dry all the time. Only once she didn't supercharge on a long trip for 10 minutes because "I always thought gas guages had a reserve below the empty reading". Made it home on electron fumes.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: boffin on May 24, 2019, 04:14:58 am
It's been about a year since I got my BEV; so I thought I'd pass along some numbers

distance travelled:  11,700km
Power used:
 home (openEVSE metered): 1,095
 work+other (Chargepoint): 650
 others (guess): 150
 TOTAL: 1895kWh

Consumption (and this would include battery charging losses): 16.2kWh/100km
or in the local rates, about C$1.62/100km

Considering the gasoline version of the same car uses 7l/100km, and gasoline is about $1.68/l here, that means I'm doing slightly better than 7:1 in costs vs the gasoline version; and that's not including the fact that I don't pay for about 40% of all my charging (work + public chargers).





Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: fourtytwo42 on May 24, 2019, 06:38:54 am
BUT you show no calculations that account for the hugely different capital costs! and BTW whats your battery life compared to an IC engine  :-\
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: Jeroen3 on May 24, 2019, 07:02:06 am
What's yearly mainenance like?
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: wilfred on May 24, 2019, 08:42:14 am
They come in waves as the leases run out, those are typically several years long and then there will be a pile of them for sale. Another wave should be coming up within the next couple of years. They may not be nearly as common in some areas as others but it's not that big of a deal to buy cars from other regions, there are even services out there to locate and transport them. I see new ones all over the place out here, EVs have proven very popular with the tech industry crowd.
Why would leases run out in waves? Surely a steady stream of leases expire month by month.

Financial year end. Maybe tax reasons. just a couple of guesses.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: wilfred on May 24, 2019, 09:17:28 am
you can drive around Australia in an EV for $150 in electricity.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/sep/12/how-much-does-it-cost-to-power-an-electric-car-around-australia-150?CMP=soc_567 (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/sep/12/how-much-does-it-cost-to-power-an-electric-car-around-australia-150?CMP=soc_567)

Fast chargers would be few and far between on the Nullabor. https://goo.gl/maps/TMcMVrVqbLwLckZK7 (https://goo.gl/maps/TMcMVrVqbLwLckZK7)

Note the lack of power poles. Those crosses by the road are what remains of those who died waiting for their cars to charge.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: boffin on May 24, 2019, 03:41:48 pm
BUT you show no calculations that account for the hugely different capital costs! and BTW whats your battery life compared to an IC engine  :-\
Let's compare VW vs VW

BEV eGolf is C$36,700 -- less $10k in incentives (5k when I bought);
similarly equipped ICE Golf is about C$26,000
Which "Hugely different capital cost" were you talking about ?  The $700 ?

Almost no maintenance costs (no oil changes).  I did have a flat tire once, but that's hardly a cost associated only with an EV

I don't expect battery life to be significantly different than engine/transmission life of an ICE car.  As with the Prius, by the time it does start being an issue, there will be a lot of 3rd party options for refresh.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: bicycleguy on May 24, 2019, 03:50:48 pm
@boffin
Thanks for your first hand information.  Unfortunately, many contributors to this thread haven't read the title.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: nctnico on May 24, 2019, 04:03:45 pm
BUT you show no calculations that account for the hugely different capital costs! and BTW whats your battery life compared to an IC engine  :-\
Let's compare VW vs VW

BEV eGolf is C$36,700 -- less $10k in incentives (5k when I bought);
similarly equipped ICE Golf is about C$26,000
Which "Hugely different capital cost" were you talking about ?  The $700 ?

Almost no maintenance costs (no oil changes).  I did have a flat tire once, but that's hardly a cost associated only with an EV

I don't expect battery life to be significantly different than engine/transmission life of an ICE car.  As with the Prius, by the time it does start being an issue, there will be a lot of 3rd party options for refresh.
Still comparing apples with oranges. Those $5k you got and the free charging is paid by other people. In the end there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. And what happens in 10 years from now when EVs turned out to be a failed experiment and the public charging infrastructure gets decomissioned (because nobody wants to pay more for public charging compared to buying gas)? You'd be stuck with a dud you can only charge at home. At that time you realise you got a lot of freebies for taking a risk with your hard earned money.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: Bud on May 24, 2019, 04:16:17 pm
BEV eGolf is C$36,700 -- less $10k in incentives (5k when I bought);
similarly equipped ICE Golf is about C$26,000
Which "Hugely different capital cost" were you talking about ?  The $700 ?

Is my guess correct that you have to report the incentive amount to the tax man who will then yank a good $1000 out of it?
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: sokoloff on May 24, 2019, 06:18:10 pm
Still comparing apples with oranges. Those $5k you got and the free charging is paid by other people. In the end there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. And what happens in 10 years from now when EVs turned out to be a failed experiment and the public charging infrastructure gets decomissioned (because nobody wants to pay more for public charging compared to buying gas)? You'd be stuck with a dud you can only charge at home. At that time you realise you got a lot of freebies for taking a risk with your hard earned money.
If that happens, I'll have driven a $21K (after incentives) LEAF for 14 years total and will have likely saved $5000 in energy costs and about the same in service costs plus 21 trips to the dealer over a comparable $21K ICE car. If it turns into a pumpkin 10 years from now, I'm still OK.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: boffin on May 24, 2019, 06:24:07 pm
Quote
Still comparing apples with oranges. Those $5k you got and the free charging is paid by other people. In the end there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. And what happens in 10 years from now when EVs turned out to be a failed experiment and the public charging infrastructure gets decomissioned (because nobody wants to pay more for public charging compared to buying gas)? You'd be stuck with a dud you can only charge at home. At that time you realise you got a lot of freebies for taking a risk with your hard earned money.

1) My costing assumed I did all my charging at home (apparently you didn't bother reading my message)
2) Public (fee) charging infrastructure is rapidly expanding.  I'm more than happy to pay for it at reasonable rates; and it's more and more common.  Even the large gasoline companies are getting into the business
3) the 5k is sort of paid by other people. However, the province and federal government are costing it in that an electric car has a lower impact on the city (noise, pollution etc) to create a better environment for everyone.  It's not really dissimilar to the city paying to build a public park.  Also the environmental impact of refineries and oil transport is much higher than the impact of electric transmission lines; especially considering that most home EV charging is done at off-peak times.  The grants will disappear, but by then the battery costs will have dropped



Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: boffin on May 24, 2019, 06:25:22 pm
BEV eGolf is C$36,700 -- less $10k in incentives (5k when I bought);
similarly equipped ICE Golf is about C$26,000
Which "Hugely different capital cost" were you talking about ?  The $700 ?

Is my guess correct that you have to report the incentive amount to the tax man who will then yank a good $1000 out of it?

Nope.  Right off the cost of the vehicle; no tax implication.


Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: jh15 on July 18, 2019, 01:35:31 am
been away from forum... yes expect that from battery possibly, and the car for several 100k miles. dead by then anyways. Ive kept vehicles running for 20 and 25 years.
I charge at 13 amps. 240 volts for 2 years. have 50 amp parts ready when we upgrade other stuff in house.
     
Worst diy stuff was exhaust, sensors, and rust here in salt Maine and NH seacoast that did them in.
not expecting the nightmare of diagnosing and replacing IACV on the Maxima stuff ever again.

We retired, and wife wanted a new non snob luxury ish car. she loved her 2001 Maxima, handed down to me.

By sheer chance, her family visits and takes kids to some venue in Boston. noticed a Tesla showroom  She sits in the leather (non-vegetarian) seats and felt like Maxima.

Appointed a test drive and now have one.  It was not my idea!

Finally a car I don't have to work on, aluminum body, non corroding components. Only rust-able wear stuff like struts brakes are all premium, but replaceable like any Ferrari, Maserati. And I have the service book with all parts and numbers.

     Someone broke the right passenger side heated and lcd dimming mirror.

Cost 125.00 and got in a couple days. Last time mirror on her Altima cost 700.00

Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: tautech on July 18, 2019, 02:46:30 am
Which model jh ?
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: jh15 on July 31, 2019, 01:23:31 am
Model s facelift. May 2017 Dropped off at house. I sorta liked the nosecone original.

Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: NiHaoMike on August 07, 2019, 01:04:00 am
https://reneweconomy.com.au/tesla-ev-charged-with-diesel-generator-still-cleaner-than-conventional-car-61942/
Interesting how the EV charged from a diesel generator used less fuel than a very efficient diesel car. Apparently, there's more loss of efficiency from running an engine out of its optimum efficiency range than is lost in charging an EV.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: coppice on August 07, 2019, 01:32:47 am
https://reneweconomy.com.au/tesla-ev-charged-with-diesel-generator-still-cleaner-than-conventional-car-61942/
Interesting how the EV charged from a diesel generator used less fuel than a very efficient diesel car. Apparently, there's more loss of efficiency from running an engine out of its optimum efficiency range than is lost in charging an EV.
This shouldn't be too surprising. Look how much better the fuel consumption of a decent hybrid can be, due to regeneration, and operating the engine at more efficient points in its operating envelope..
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: wilfred on August 07, 2019, 01:40:33 am
In the article reported the engineer (retired) that constructed the device 

 "He stresses that the point is not to offer a diesel-powered EV charger as the final solution, but as a reliable stop gap until installation of batteries and renewable-powered EV chargers become financially viable."

Which given the sign "Nullabor" on it suggests he is thinking of the longest loneliest most isolated from charging infrastructure road in Australia. 
If it is true that almost all car journeys in Australia are easily within the range of an electric vehicle then any stop-gap solution to the difficulty of meeting long journey charging is welcome.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: NiHaoMike on August 07, 2019, 02:22:45 am
If I did the unit conversions right, the Tesla charged from the diesel generator got about 55 MPG, about on par with a new Prius. Even I'm surprised a cobbled together setup can perform as efficiently as one of the most efficient hybrids in existence.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: Someone on August 07, 2019, 04:34:01 am
If I did the unit conversions right, the Tesla charged from the diesel generator got about 55 MPG, about on par with a new Prius. Even I'm surprised a cobbled together setup can perform as efficiently as one of the most efficient hybrids in existence.
Not sure a 30kVA diesel generator is anything "cobbled together", they are huge trailer units designed for long term and low cost operation.

The comparison has many issues expanded on in their comments, but also the generator is not bound to emissions limits. The emissions limits have strong justification from the human health impacts in populated areas, but meeting them has come at the cost of fuel economy. Many, many, engineering tradeoffs involved.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: Jeroen3 on August 07, 2019, 11:05:35 am
If I did the unit conversions right, the Tesla charged from the diesel generator got about 55 MPG, about on par with a new Prius. Even I'm surprised a cobbled together setup can perform as efficiently as one of the most efficient hybrids in existence.
Not sure a 30kVA diesel generator is anything "cobbled together", they are huge trailer units designed for long term and low cost operation.

The comparison has many issues expanded on in their comments, but also the generator is not bound to emissions limits. The emissions limits have strong justification from the human health impacts in populated areas, but meeting them has come at the cost of fuel economy. Many, many, engineering tradeoffs involved.
And you have to derate a generator for EV charging application due to high harmonic losses. In Formula E racing they double it, and add resistive loadbanks to stabilize the power output with a base load.
Charging EV's with an generator is not always plug&play.

And no, you don't get adblue in rental generators yet.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: coppice on August 07, 2019, 11:36:13 am
If I did the unit conversions right, the Tesla charged from the diesel generator got about 55 MPG, about on par with a new Prius. Even I'm surprised a cobbled together setup can perform as efficiently as one of the most efficient hybrids in existence.
The Prius is gasoline powered. A diesel hybrid should be 20% to 30% more efficient per litre of fuel.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: f4eru on August 08, 2019, 06:49:38 pm
Model 3 SR+ for me.

5000km in 6 weeks, charging mostly on a schucko at home 230V/13A, occasionally charging for free on supermarket parkings, on long trips with blazingly fast 105kW at the supercharger(750 km/h). And it lifts off like a rocket, even if there's only a single motor (RWD). Drooling Tesla smile  ;D every single morning at arival at the workplace ;D

And the best thing is : after just a few years it will beat hands down even a VW golf in TCO.

The TM3 is simply the best car available today. By far.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: nctnico on August 08, 2019, 08:53:10 pm
@f4eru: yes you have to justify spending your money so the TM3 has to be good in your view. In the real world Tesla has ended up at the bottom of every list where it comes to reliable car brands. Not so long ago I read a review from a Tesla owner. He had lots of problems which are not getting solved and due to the absence of a dealer nearby he lost quite a few vacations days to bring his Tesla back and pick it up unfixed.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: f4eru on August 08, 2019, 08:57:49 pm
Yeah. Sure. it's reeeeaaallly baaad.
Don't buy one  :-DD
Or don't buy the FUD.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: nctnico on August 09, 2019, 07:54:54 pm
Unfortunately for you the 'least reliable car brand lists' are compiled using experiences from actual owners. IOW they are the cold hard numbers.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: f4eru on August 09, 2019, 09:00:43 pm
More FUD. No numbers.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: ebastler on August 09, 2019, 09:01:46 pm
Model 3 SR+ for me. [...]
charging [...] with blazingly fast 105kW at the supercharger(750 km/h).

Wow, that's within two orders of magnitude of my old clunker, which I refill at a rate of 750km per minute.
Yes, the gasoline smell during that process can be mildly annoying.  8)
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: f4eru on August 09, 2019, 09:24:09 pm
sure. but that's only 2 times/year, when going more than 400km apiece.
the other 363 times/year, it takes litterally 20 sec at home for 250km (10 sec to plug in the evening, 10 sec to unplug in the morning.)
And that costs ca. 5x less per km than my old obsolete diesel.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: Jeroen3 on August 12, 2019, 08:49:58 am
People who are using the fuel argument are not even the slightest open to EV's at all. They'll to all in their power to make fun of the people who are. It's called trolling I guess.
Stop trying to convince them, it's not going to happen. You have to rip their diesel car out of their cold dead hands.
Or just make it economically unfeasible, that also works.

Meanwhile, can you charge the wrong electricity (https://www.wiesbadener-kurier.de/lokales/rhein-main/autofahrerin-will-tank-mit-staubsauger-auspumpen-brand-an-tankstelle_20344308#)?

The TM3 is simply the best car available today. By far.
Would you still say this without any warranty period from Tesla? Say, second hand bought?
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: sokoloff on August 12, 2019, 09:24:48 am
People who are using the fuel argument are not even the slightest open to EV's at all. They'll to all in their power to make fun of the people who are. It's called trolling I guess.
Stop trying to convince them, it's not going to happen. You have to rip their diesel car out of their cold dead hands.
I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding on the part of EV advocates. People know how ICE cars work; they may need an education on how EVs work.

It's not trolling when someone genuinely wonders how they're going to do their typical road trip if they have an EV that doesn't have the range and can only charge at 24 miles per hour of charge. In many cases, the only suitable answer is "use your other diesel or gas car". That's my answer (I daily a LEAF) and my parents answer (they each drive electric Smart cars), so we're obviously "open to EVs".
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: richard.cs on August 12, 2019, 12:14:08 pm
can only charge at 24 miles per hour of charge.

At 4 miles per kWh that's about 6 kW delivered to the battery so presumably you're thinking of 7 kW chargers. Genuinely curious, are there many models where that is the maximum charge rate? Or places where that is the typical power output of a charger intended for short stops? I know the Twizy is limited to ~2.5 kW charging but it's barely a car in many respects.

In the UK, shopping centres and car parks where people typically spend a few hours are usually 7 kW but motorway services, etc. are usually >40 kW. My understanding is that in much of Europe there is a preference for 11 kW (3 phase @ 16 A) rather than 7 kW (single phase at 32 A) for the slow chargers and similar provision of the high power ones.

Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: sokoloff on August 12, 2019, 12:43:36 pm
I think most ChargePoints are 6.6kW max. ChargePoint is the largest US public charging network (I think by a very wide margin).

My LEAF has a 6.6kW Level 2 charger and a CHAdeMO connector. It has literally only ever been CHAdeMO charged once in its life and that was before delivery. (I have an app that can read the battery stats and am the only owner.)
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: richard.cs on August 12, 2019, 02:30:38 pm
That's interesting, I'd not considered that the USA was so lacking in fast-charging infrastructure.

Part of that might be because the USA has adopted the type 1 connector for AC charging which is inherently single-phase, so the fastest AC charging options aren't available without jumping to DC systems like CHAdeMO, though apparently up to 19 kW is still supported on type 1. Over here the installation costs of a 22 kW chargepoint (3 phases at 32 A) aren't hugely higher than that of a 7 kW charge point (at least in commercial installations) as it's essentially the same thing with a few more poles on the contactor. Nearly all the motorway ones are combination chargers that do CHAdeMO, CCS and 43 kW AC.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: coppice on August 12, 2019, 02:45:13 pm
That's interesting, I'd not considered that the USA was so lacking in fast-charging infrastructure.
Its not really lacking. It has a lot of Tesla fast chargers, and Teslas are a substantial proportion of the electric cars in the US. What the US lacks, like every other market, is a solid line up of competing electric cars to stimulate a bigger non-Tesla fast charger network.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: Jeroen3 on August 13, 2019, 06:07:35 am
My understanding is that in much of Europe there is a preference for 11 kW (3 phase @ 16 A) rather than 7 kW (single phase at 32 A) for the slow chargers and similar provision of the high power ones.
Perhaps that is due to residential capacities.
In the netherlands you have 3x25A (17 kW) and 1x40A (9 kW). Also 3x35A (24 kW), but that is €700 per year more expensive.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: f4eru on August 13, 2019, 09:41:47 am
Quote
My understanding is that in much of Europe there is a preference for 11 kW (3 phase @ 16 A) rather than 7 kW (single phase at 32 A)
Yes, it's a difficult to solve equation for any EV manufacturer.
- In Europe in general, at public or private AC chargers, you neraly almost always get 3-phase 11 or 22 or sometimes 43 kW
- in The US, you get 120 or 240V single phase at home
- In countries like Germany, you always get 3-phase in residential -> 16A/3phase is the standard charging at home once you install an EVSE.
- In countries like France, 1phase is the overwhelming standard residential (3 phase connection is expensive here), so 32A/1ph charging is the standard at home.

Some EV manuf. like BMW or renault build in only 1 phase chargers on the base model, so charging at a 16A/3ph is limited to 16A/1 phase -> 3kW, that's boringly slow,esp. at germany's time based paid public chargers(and that's because of anti-EV regulations)

For the Tesla M3, it supports 16A/3ph or 32A/1ph, which is really great for all home configurations, with 2 slight disadvantages :
- The 32A/1ph adapter for the included EVSE has to be purchased separately (cheap, but difficult to get)
- The EVSE that Tesla includes in the car cannot charge 3-phase, making 3-phase home charging a separate expense for an EVSE (recommended anyway)

I suppose that Tesla was clever and switches 2 of the 3 single phase 16A chargers in parallel to provide the 32A/1phase with the same Hardware.

For now, I charge at 13A/1phase at home, it's slow but enough for all I do including getting to 100% before long trips.
Looking forward to get the 32A/1ph adapter.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: richard.cs on August 13, 2019, 11:09:36 am
Yes, it's a difficult to solve equation for any EV manufacturer.
I see that there are costs in making it flexible but it's not that difficult. The Renault Zoe for example just takes the three phase input to a three phase bridge and converts directly to DC, then has a contactor that shorts N to L3 if there's no voltage on the DC output but there is voltage L1-N in order to enable single-phase charging. The contactor is a little odd when they could have just added two more diodes to the bridge and had a permanent neutral connection. The 22 kW and 43 kW models both work the same just with 32 and 63 A maximum phase current (and it seems like 63 A single-phase charging would work in principle on the 43 kW model, as would things like a charge point that only supplied L1 and L2 without N or L3).

The extra cost for supporting 3 phase is a couple of extra diodes in the input stage (trivial), extra current transformers, etc. (moderate?) and a higher voltage rating for many of the components (probably the significant one). US model cars with type 1 connectors just can't have 3 phase because it's inherently a single-phase standard and doesn't have the required number of pins.

Some EV manuf. like BMW or renault build in only 1 phase chargers on the base model, so charging at a 16A/3ph is limited to 16A/1 phase -> 3kW
Of course if the charger were single phase but could work with higher voltages it would be able to charge between phases and give sqrt(3) faster charging, but it's likely the component voltage rating that is the restriction. I am somewhat surprised European manufacturers are skimping on the charger to that extent given that 16A 3 phase is such a common charger in Europe.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: f4eru on August 13, 2019, 11:21:11 am
The extra cost for supporting 3 phase is a couple of extra diodes in the input stage (trivial), extra current transformers, etc. (moderate?) and a higher voltage rating for many of the components (probably the significant one).
Unfortunately not.
You can't do that with diodes. The power factor would be extrelmely bad, and that's not allowed by regulation.
You'll need a multi-kW isolated SMPS per phase with a continuous rating, a high immunity to surges, not too heavy, and acting as a PFC. That has quite some cost.

Quote
The Renault Zoe for example just takes the three phase
anyone has the specs for 1ph and 3ph charging of the zoe ?
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: richard.cs on August 13, 2019, 12:27:02 pm
You can do active PFC on the secondary side of a 3 phase bridge reasonably well so long as there is no capacitance before the converter. It's not perfect because you can't draw current from the lowest voltage phase but you can achieve pretty good conduction angles. Certainly much better than you can achieve on a bridge which is capacitively loaded.

I have seen a diagram for the input structure of the Zoe where the first thing it hits is a three phase bridge, with a L3-N contactor. Of course this wasn't official Renault documentation so maybe it's incorrect or an over-simplification. What is well-documented is that it reused the motor driver and the motor windings as the 43 kW AC charger, I imagine there are plenty of patents describing this if one wanted to go digging.

A 5 minute search found this: https://www.pes-publications.ee.ethz.ch/uploads/tx_ethpublications/__IPEMC_2012_Seminar_3ph_PFC_Rectifiers_FINAL_as_sent_310512.pdf (https://www.pes-publications.ee.ethz.ch/uploads/tx_ethpublications/__IPEMC_2012_Seminar_3ph_PFC_Rectifiers_FINAL_as_sent_310512.pdf) which describes a large number of different three-phase PFC topologies, quite a few with a simple bridge input. I had assumed that the Zoe was something like p29, bridge followed by current-mode switcher giving ~square wave input current with 1/3 dead time. This sounds pretty ugly but the power factor of this is claimed to be 0.952. There are also approaches like on p10 where it is a simple bridge but 3rd harmonic is artificially injected back into the inputs.

(did some digging, it looks like what I read before was an over simplification and the Zoe uses a controlled rectifier as per this patent: https://patents.google.com/patent/US20120286740/en (https://patents.google.com/patent/US20120286740/en))
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: f4eru on August 13, 2019, 12:58:53 pm
OK, Interesting PFC topologies :)
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: richard.cs on August 14, 2019, 09:02:58 am
And a bit more on-topic...

I've been driving the Zoe about 13 months and 10,000 miles now. It basically just works. Most charging is at home overnight with occasional top-ups at other times, e.g. after work if we're going out again. Some use of public chargers with the main problem there being the fragmented ownership of them in the UK - there are dozens of different "charging networks" and for each one you have to sign up, often install an app, and pre-load an account with £10 or so. I just want to be able to show up, pay and charge, charge points with contactless payments would be good there.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: coppice on August 14, 2019, 11:40:40 am
And a bit more on-topic...

I've been driving the Zoe about 13 months and 10,000 miles now. It basically just works. Most charging is at home overnight with occasional top-ups at other times, e.g. after work if we're going out again. Some use of public chargers with the main problem there being the fragmented ownership of them in the UK - there are dozens of different "charging networks" and for each one you have to sign up, often install an app, and pre-load an account with £10 or so. I just want to be able to show up, pay and charge, charge points with contactless payments would be good there.
Have you had much trouble turning up at a charger and finding its dead? There seem to be a lot of dead ones around, and as a casual observer the various apps don't seem to be very thorough in showing them.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: richard.cs on August 14, 2019, 11:51:32 am
Have you had much trouble turning up at a charger and finding its dead? There seem to be a lot of dead ones around, and as a casual observer the various apps don't seem to be very thorough in showing them.

It's not happened yet. I have though actively avoided ones marked as dead in ZapMap. One petrol station near my got a rapid charger and then proceeded to only switch it on when people went in and asked for it, but they stopped that sillyness after a few weeks. ICE cars parking in the way seems to be more of a problem. Supermarkets in particular seem to have the problem of putting the chargers near the building (probably because that's where the power is) but then the spaces end up being desirable, in close to the entrance with the disabled and parent & child bays, so people just park in them and the only parking enforcement they do is time-of-stay.

 I've not yet been unable to charge anywhere that was marked as working, but having multiple bays and chargers in most locations helps there.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: coppice on August 14, 2019, 12:08:59 pm
Have you had much trouble turning up at a charger and finding its dead? There seem to be a lot of dead ones around, and as a casual observer the various apps don't seem to be very thorough in showing them.

It's not happened yet. I have though actively avoided ones marked as dead in ZapMap. One petrol station near my got a rapid charger and then proceeded to only switch it on when people went in and asked for it, but they stopped that sillyness after a few weeks. ICE cars parking in the way seems to be more of a problem. Supermarkets in particular seem to have the problem of putting the chargers near the building (probably because that's where the power is) but then the spaces end up being desirable, in close to the entrance with the disabled and parent & child bays, so people just park in them and the only parking enforcement they do is time-of-stay.

 I've not yet been unable to charge anywhere that was marked as working, but having multiple bays and chargers in most locations helps there.
I think the placement of charging stations near the building is partly for convenient wiring, but there are other factors. They'd need at least one space near the building as a disabled space, or people would complain they aren't supporting disabled people properly. However, the disabled sticker situation in the UK is insane. Supermarket car parks have at least 10% of their spaces set out as disabled spaces. There used to be just 2 or 3, and they were not always in use.

Companies putting chargers in their staff car parks generally place them in a very desirable (i.e. short walk) part of the car park. I think its considered a perk of driving an electric car.

Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: richard.cs on August 14, 2019, 12:28:24 pm
Supermarket car parks have at least 10% of their spaces set out as disabled spaces. There used to be just 2 or 3, and they were not always in use.

Not in the Southampton area they don't, 10 spaces out of perhaps 300 seems normal around here, with perhaps a further 20 for parent and child.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: tom66 on August 19, 2019, 03:47:00 pm
Do quite like my VW Golf GTE PHEV.

For short journeys, which represent 90% of my mileage, it's fantastic.  Long term fuel economy is >200mpg (<1.2L/100km)

Electric economy is around 17kWh/100km but if I drive sensibly in summer weather with just the fan/air con on low it gets around 14.5kWh/100km or better.

Likes:
- The regen braking, the instant torque, and smoothness of drivetrain
- The hybrid petrol-electric combination for acceleration (210 hp is enough to make a dent when trying to overtake)
- Adaptive cruise and auto hold are so smooth and well put together
- Cost of running on electric is dirt cheap
- Petrol engine is surprisingly efficient (~50 mpg is possible if driven sensibly with summer tyres)

Dislikes:
- DSG gearbox can be a bit clunky (shifts are a little jerky), especially when cold (think it's related to the DSG clutches and the oil) 
- DSG gearbox isn't great at going from high gear to low gear quickly (e.g. 20 mph approach onto a roundabout and rapid acceleration) but this can be reduced by paddle shifting down before.  Yes, the car uses the gearbox in e-mode, which is odd!
- HV battery has had recall already which resulted in replacement due to poorly fitted weather seal (93C3 recall action) but bonus was new HV batt at 51,000 miles
- Adaptive cruise sometimes doesn't get the braking right in traffic on hills which results in a tiny bit of rollback when setting off but nothing serious
- Range in winter is quite a bit poorer with only the resistive heating and poor cabin insulation
- Overall range of the car is quite poor, which is fine for my uses but means waiting for a charge to use e-mode again (e.g. pop home and stop for 1.5 hours to wait for charge before going on a journey, or finding a shopping centre with charging.) The car has a petrol engine, but I like to minimise the use of that!
- Service schedule is same as regular Golf despite low engine use; ultimately cost of annual maintenance is similar, although fully synthetic oil recommended which is extra.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: boffin on August 19, 2019, 05:18:57 pm
Do quite like my VW Golf GTE PHEV.

For short journeys, which represent 90% of my mileage, it's fantastic.  Long term fuel economy is >200mpg (<1.2L/100km)

Thanks for the info.  The PHEV Golf was never available in North America, I'd love to see one.   I drive the full-on EV Golf, and even the 135hp (100kW) motor is pretty zippy for city driving. 

Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: coppice on August 19, 2019, 05:29:00 pm
Do quite like my VW Golf GTE PHEV.

For short journeys, which represent 90% of my mileage, it's fantastic.  Long term fuel economy is >200mpg (<1.2L/100km)

Thanks for the info.  The PHEV Golf was never available in North America, I'd love to see one.   I drive the full-on EV Golf, and even the 135hp (100kW) motor is pretty zippy for city driving.
You electric car guys are all torque, and that matters a lot more than maximum power for city driving. The old rubber band driven gas powered DAFs used to be able to move off the line faster than a Ferrari, because they could get quite a high gearing ratio from the transmission, and apply enormous torque for their initial burst of motion.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: boffin on August 19, 2019, 05:44:59 pm
Do quite like my VW Golf GTE PHEV.

For short journeys, which represent 90% of my mileage, it's fantastic.  Long term fuel economy is >200mpg (<1.2L/100km)

Thanks for the info.  The PHEV Golf was never available in North America, I'd love to see one.   I drive the full-on EV Golf, and even the 135hp (100kW) motor is pretty zippy for city driving.
You electric car guys are all torque, and that matters a lot more than maximum power for city driving. The old rubber band driven gas powered DAFs used to be able to move off the line faster than a Ferrari, because they could get quite a high gearing ratio from the transmission, and apply enormous torque for their initial burst of motion.

Yep, dad's old 66 Marathon was pretty quick off the line.  It had a tiny 1300cc renault engine (maybe 60hp), but was really quick off the line; although I always put reason for that on the bright yellow paint job w/ black racing stripe.

A car unknown outside of Europe.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: tom66 on August 19, 2019, 05:58:41 pm
The GTE has ~400Nm of torque from standstill; more than the GTI (the GTI has to hit ~3500rpm before it can deliver that torque.)

One other thing that is rarely talked of is that without a clutch engagement, there is no need to slip that to set off quickly.  That is after all the point of launch control and like systems; with the GTE, simply press the pedal hard. Even in the sporty GTE hybrid mode, the car sets off in electric, then switches the engine on as the e-motor begins to ramp off in torque.  So, the initial launch is pretty good, though, not as crazy as the Model S, which I test drove. That really surprised me, and caught me out once on the test drive.

I find the pure electric torque to be *more* than sufficient for the majority of my driving.  The car is so quick off the line, great for nipping in gaps when you need. It's like having an ICE car that's permanently in the powerband, has full torque available until about 40 mph, which as coppice says, is basically all you ever need for a city.

For my work commute, I drive there and back on EV, and in the summer months I've been getting rated mileage so I could do the 50km or so that the car says you have in the tank.  There are chargers at work, which I need to use to make the return journey possible. But this is no issue at all, as I am usually there for 9 hours a day. Plenty of time to charge.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: Jeroen3 on August 19, 2019, 07:31:47 pm
Do quite like my VW Golf GTE PHEV.

For short journeys, which represent 90% of my mileage, it's fantastic.  Long term fuel economy is >200mpg (<1.2L/100km)

Thanks for the info.  The PHEV Golf was never available in North America, I'd love to see one.   I drive the full-on EV Golf, and even the 135hp (100kW) motor is pretty zippy for city driving.
You electric car guys are all torque, and that matters a lot more than maximum power for city driving. The old rubber band driven gas powered DAFs used to be able to move off the line faster than a Ferrari, because they could get quite a high gearing ratio from the transmission, and apply enormous torque for their initial burst of motion.
I have a Honda CVT Hybrid, which is exactly that plus electric motor. It's quickly away, but soon overtaken. Total power to weight is miserable with only a 70 kW VTEC motor and 15 kW electric.
Would never go back to full ICE though. The immediate response on throttle and single pedal highway driving is amazing.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: nctnico on August 19, 2019, 07:48:21 pm
You electric car guys are all torque, and that matters a lot more than maximum power for city driving. The old rubber band driven gas powered DAFs used to be able to move off the line faster than a Ferrari, because they could get quite a high gearing ratio from the transmission, and apply enormous torque for their initial burst of motion.
You should brush up your physics. Only power gets you moving because power delivers energy. Look at formulas and think about that long and hard before replying. Saying torque gets you going is like saying voltage is flowing through a light bulb.

But let me rephrase your comment: an EV can develop a lot of power at low revs so can get away quickly.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: coppice on August 19, 2019, 08:44:43 pm
You electric car guys are all torque, and that matters a lot more than maximum power for city driving. The old rubber band driven gas powered DAFs used to be able to move off the line faster than a Ferrari, because they could get quite a high gearing ratio from the transmission, and apply enormous torque for their initial burst of motion.
You should brush up your physics. Only power gets you moving because power delivers energy. Look at formulas and think about that long and hard before replying. Saying torque gets you going is like saying voltage is flowing through a light bulb.

But let me rephrase your comment: an EV can develop a lot of power at low revs so can get away quickly.
I think you need to brush up your physics or your reading skills. Only the power you can actually deliver to the wheels gets you moving. Most cars cannot deliver much power from rest, because they are torque limited. They lack the extreme gearing needed to achieve the kind of torque that would allow them to deliver a high percentage of their power capacity.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: ahbushnell on August 19, 2019, 11:29:03 pm
You electric car guys are all torque, and that matters a lot more than maximum power for city driving. The old rubber band driven gas powered DAFs used to be able to move off the line faster than a Ferrari, because they could get quite a high gearing ratio from the transmission, and apply enormous torque for their initial burst of motion.
You should brush up your physics. Only power gets you moving because power delivers energy. Look at formulas and think about that long and hard before replying. Saying torque gets you going is like saying voltage is flowing through a light bulb.

But let me rephrase your comment: an EV can develop a lot of power at low revs so can get away quickly.
I think you need to brush up your physics or your reading skills. Only the power you can actually deliver to the wheels gets you moving. Most cars cannot deliver much power from rest, because they are torque limited. They lack the extreme gearing needed to achieve the kind of torque that would allow them to deliver a high percentage of their power capacity.

Let's talk physics.

For rotion the power on a shaft is:

P=omega * torque
Omega the angular velocity in rad/sec. 
torque is in N-m. 
So at zero speed there is no power. 
As the shaft begins to rotate then power comes into play.

Cars can't deliver power from rest because the speed is low or zero. 

The rate of angular acceleration is:
 
d(omega)/dt=I * torque
I is the inertia. 

This ignores friction losses. 


 
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: nctnico on August 20, 2019, 12:10:23 am
But in the end it is the amount of power the motor can output which determines how fast it can accellerate. Torque is only interesting for dimensioning the gears. A gearbox is just like a impedance adaption transformer. It maximises the power transfer. Also if you have a motor with a constant power output then the torque will decrease with increasing RPM. That is very counter intuitive because more is usually better.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: coppice on August 20, 2019, 12:50:31 am
But in the end it is the amount of power the motor can output which determines how fast it can accellerate. Torque is only interesting for dimensioning the gears. A gearbox is just like a impedance adaption transformer. It maximises the power transfer. Also if you have a motor with a constant power output then the torque will decrease with increasing RPM. That is very counter intuitive because more is usually better.
Read what ahbushnell wrote. When the car is moving slowly it takes a huge amount of torque for even a small amount of power to be applied to accelerating the car. Any real world motor has a maximum torque that it can produce, and this limits the power it can apply to accelerating the car, and therefore limits the acceleration. As the car speeds up, the amount of power needed to sustain maximum torque rises, until the engine becomes limited by the amount of power it can produce. From that point it is the power capacity of the motor which limits acceleration.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: EEVblog on August 20, 2019, 01:23:03 am
Does the LEAF have a 240V 10A EVSE these days?
IIRC is never used to?
If I got a LEAF I'd picture myself charging from a normal 240V 10A outlet quite a lot.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: tom66 on August 20, 2019, 06:21:07 am
Yes, in the UK at least the Leaf comes with a standard "granny lead" as well as a type2 lead (the Leaf itself either has a type1 socket for older models, or type2 for newer.)
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: tom66 on August 20, 2019, 06:25:23 am
But in the end it is the amount of power the motor can output which determines how fast it can accellerate. Torque is only interesting for dimensioning the gears. A gearbox is just like a impedance adaption transformer. It maximises the power transfer. Also if you have a motor with a constant power output then the torque will decrease with increasing RPM. That is very counter intuitive because more is usually better.

The point isn't that EV's have more torque, the e-Golf has approximately the same torque figure as a 2.0L petrol TSI engine.

The point is that an EV can deliver the full torque to the motor shaft from zero rpm, without a clutch or torque-converter slipping to regulate speed, and without having to be at a high-rpm.  Most petrol engines deliver peak torque around 3000 rpm, which means that for first gear in a regular car, you need to be around 15 mph before the vehicle is maximising its torque capability.

One side effect of this if is you have ever tried to park a car with an automatic gearbox.  It is a lot harder in my car to park (torque control is worse so creeping into my short driveway is hard) when the EV battery is "flat" and the car is using the engine exclusively for drive functions. When in the electric mode, I can creep forward less than 1cm at a time because the clutches are fully engaged and there is no need to slip anything.

Climbing up a hill is also interesting, at low speeds.  The "power meter" in the GTE will go to about 30%, which would indicate that the car is pulling 25kW or so, but the actual power consumption is around 3-4kW. (At low speeds the power meter seems to map to torque instead, perhaps to give a consistent appearance.) Most ICE vehicles to climb a hill need to run the engine quite aggressively in a low gear to get the torque required, but my car will climb almost anything in 4th or 5th gear in E-mode, and burns relatively few electrons doing this.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: boffin on August 20, 2019, 03:17:31 pm
Does the LEAF have a 240V 10A EVSE these days?
IIRC is never used to?
If I got a LEAF I'd picture myself charging from a normal 240V 10A outlet quite a lot.
In North America, the couple of friends that I know that have them got 120V/12A charging cables with theirs. Whether that was the dealer that threw it in or not, I'm not sure, but a 240/10A is pretty inexpensive (Check out Mike's recent teardown of a couple).
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: nctnico on August 20, 2019, 05:36:40 pm
But in the end it is the amount of power the motor can output which determines how fast it can accellerate. Torque is only interesting for dimensioning the gears. A gearbox is just like a impedance adaption transformer. It maximises the power transfer. Also if you have a motor with a constant power output then the torque will decrease with increasing RPM. That is very counter intuitive because more is usually better.

The point isn't that EV's have more torque, the e-Golf has approximately the same torque figure as a 2.0L petrol TSI engine.

The point is that an EV can deliver the full torque to the motor shaft from zero rpm, without a clutch or torque-converter slipping to regulate speed, and without having to be at a high-rpm.  Most petrol engines deliver peak torque around 3000 rpm, which means that for first gear in a regular car, you need to be around 15 mph before the vehicle is maximising its torque capability.

One side effect of this if is you have ever tried to park a car with an automatic gearbox.  It is a lot harder in my car to park (torque control is worse so creeping into my short driveway is hard) when the EV battery is "flat" and the car is using the engine exclusively for drive functions. When in the electric mode, I can creep forward less than 1cm at a time because the clutches are fully engaged and there is no need to slip anything.

Climbing up a hill is also interesting, at low speeds.  The "power meter" in the GTE will go to about 30%, which would indicate that the car is pulling 25kW or so, but the actual power consumption is around 3-4kW. (At low speeds the power meter seems to map to torque instead, perhaps to give a consistent appearance.) Most ICE vehicles to climb a hill need to run the engine quite aggressively in a low gear to get the torque required, but my car will climb almost anything in 4th or 5th gear in E-mode, and burns relatively few electrons doing this.
Sorry but this is utter nonsense from a physics point of view. It doesn't make any sense at all.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: nctnico on August 20, 2019, 05:39:27 pm
But in the end it is the amount of power the motor can output which determines how fast it can accellerate. Torque is only interesting for dimensioning the gears. A gearbox is just like a impedance adaption transformer. It maximises the power transfer. Also if you have a motor with a constant power output then the torque will decrease with increasing RPM. That is very counter intuitive because more is usually better.
Read what ahbushnell wrote. When the car is moving slowly it takes a huge amount of torque for even a small amount of power to be applied to accelerating the car. Any real world motor has a maximum torque that it can produce, and this limits the power it can apply to accelerating the car, and therefore limits the acceleration.
No. Taking off is a limit situation which is bridged by the clutch or torque converter. Once the clutch or torque converter are fully engaged it is all about power. If you keep talking about torque then you are severely fooling yourself. Look at the formulas and imagine an engine with a constant power output (my previous car had a flat spot in the rpm/power curve where the torque becomes lower with increasing RPM). I can prove mathematically that the accelleration is faster when staying in the maximum power output range rather than switching gears to get back into the maximum torque area.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: tom66 on August 20, 2019, 05:54:10 pm
No. Taking off is a limit situation which is bridged by the clutch or torque converter. Once the clutch or torque converter are fully engaged it is all about power. If you keep talking about torque then you are severely fooling yourself. Look at the formulas and imagine an engine with a constant power output (my previous car had a flat spot in the rpm/power curve where the torque becomes lower with increasing RPM). I can prove mathematically that the accelleration is faster when staying in the maximum power output range rather than switching gears to get back into the maximum torque area.

Well, duh. Of course it is faster if an engine produces a fixed 100 hp. 

But the reality is for the *vast majority* of internal combustion engine cars, it is not possible to get fixed power output at any given vehicular speed because the gearbox will never be able to keep the engine there.  The exception is a CVT gearbox, which can probably most closely replicate the performance of an EV with an ICE.  CVTs are unusual, though Honda and Nissan do make some, and the Prius has an e-CVT planetary drive set which replicates the performance of a CVT but uses two electric motors instead of a belt and cone drive.

In most EVs, the torque available from near zero rpm is full, limited only by the traction control system and the gearbox.  So, say from 2mph upwards, the car can output full torque.

At the point of maximum power (when RPM * Torque = Pmax) the torque begins to ramp off.  Attached graph shows this behaviour.  Depending on the EV this is somewhere between 30 and 50 mph.  For the Model S RWD85 it is around 45 mph. I believe for the P100D it is a bit lower because the vehicle is limited to 1300A from the battery. The power then remains constant until the Vmax of the motor is reached, typically this is due to commutation limits or sometimes just software.
 
(https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-aaff63afaeec9c298acde71b9435fbe6.webp)

Compared to an ICE vehicle, you would need to be at an RPM of ~2500-3500rpm to obtain maximum torque.  So if you want to gain maximum torque on launch, you need a system like launch control, which holds the clutch just at bite point for longer so the engine does not stall as the car launches.  This is of course terrible for the longevity of the clutch packs and in many owners manuals the vehicle manufacturer recommends avoiding frequent launches.  But, the option is there.

EVs have this same launch characteristic (minus the slightly lower power output typically) without risking shredding the clutch plates.  BUT, ultimately, it does not matter. Until you hit the peak power rpm of an engine,  you don't get that peak power. So the initial launch is always torque limited, and therefore most EVs will do better than most ICE vehicles on launch.

My GTE has a "psuedo-launch-control" system.  Pressing both the brake and accelerator when stopped when in the sport-GTE mode will start the engine and run it for 30sec.  The car will still launch with just the e-motor, then at sufficient speed clutch in the engine, around 2000rpm and combine the power output of the two systems. The net effect is that the total system power of the car (~220 hp) is approximately fixed until 100 mph. The electric motor applies an opposing power curve to compensate for the engine's varying power output across the rev range. 

Ultimately, torque is what moves you.  That is the force in F=ma.  Power is a necessary expenditure because you are moving a heavy car up to some speed, with air resistance and friction. 

I do ask ... how many EVs have you driven?  I have driven probably about 10 models, and ALL of them launch better than any ICE vehicle I have driven.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: ahbushnell on August 20, 2019, 06:25:08 pm
But in the end it is the amount of power the motor can output which determines how fast it can accellerate. Torque is only interesting for dimensioning the gears. A gearbox is just like a impedance adaption transformer. It maximises the power transfer. Also if you have a motor with a constant power output then the torque will decrease with increasing RPM. That is very counter intuitive because more is usually better.

The point isn't that EV's have more torque, the e-Golf has approximately the same torque figure as a 2.0L petrol TSI engine.

The point is that an EV can deliver the full torque to the motor shaft from zero rpm, without a clutch or torque-converter slipping to regulate speed, and without having to be at a high-rpm.  Most petrol engines deliver peak torque around 3000 rpm, which means that for first gear in a regular car, you need to be around 15 mph before the vehicle is maximising its torque capability.

One side effect of this if is you have ever tried to park a car with an automatic gearbox.  It is a lot harder in my car to park (torque control is worse so creeping into my short driveway is hard) when the EV battery is "flat" and the car is using the engine exclusively for drive functions. When in the electric mode, I can creep forward less than 1cm at a time because the clutches are fully engaged and there is no need to slip anything.

Climbing up a hill is also interesting, at low speeds.  The "power meter" in the GTE will go to about 30%, which would indicate that the car is pulling 25kW or so, but the actual power consumption is around 3-4kW. (At low speeds the power meter seems to map to torque instead, perhaps to give a consistent appearance.) Most ICE vehicles to climb a hill need to run the engine quite aggressively in a low gear to get the torque required, but my car will climb almost anything in 4th or 5th gear in E-mode, and burns relatively few electrons doing this.
Sorry but this is utter nonsense from a physics point of view. It doesn't make any sense at all.
A permanent magnet motor can generate it's full torque at zero speed.  Not so a combustion engine.

That's a well known fact.  Look it up on a book on electric motors. 
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: james_s on August 20, 2019, 08:22:37 pm
Is it too much to ask that people who have never even driven an EV refrain from posting in an "Electric Car Experiences" thread? I mean if you don't have any direct experiences, then what exactly can you contribute?
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: nctnico on August 20, 2019, 08:23:08 pm
and ALL of them launch better than any ICE vehicle I have driven.
Because they have more power at low RPM but that doesn't really matter. In order to move a mass you need to supply energy. Power is energy per time unit. Sure you can derive torque but your graph shows precisely why speaking about torque is so bad. Usually more is better but at a certain point the torque starts to drop and suddenly less gets better?? How does that match climbing uphill needing more torque when you are in the area where the torque is declining? Even worse, you can fit a different motor with half the torque and the same power rating and still get exactly the same accelleration. Only this motor will run at double the RPM and the gear ratio needs to be changed as well.

And there is more to it. At the research institute where I used to work they did tests to determine how people perceive accelleration of a car. Interestingly the fastest accelleration isn't perceived as fast at all. A constant torque (and thus increasing power) is perceived as a faster accelleration than using constant (maximum) power. That is why most car motors/engines are controlled to have a constant torque (the graph you posted is a nice example). You can try it yourself if the engine in your car has such a characteristic. When the maximum power is reached it will feel like a dud when you want to accellerate further. In an ICE (usually with a turbo-charged engine) this effect will tempt you to change gears but in reality you are making things worse.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: boffin on August 20, 2019, 08:33:32 pm
Is it too much to ask that people who have never even driven an EV refrain from posting in an "Electric Car Experiences" thread? I mean if you don't have any direct experiences, then what exactly can you contribute?

As the OP of this thread, I would ask people to try and stay on topic.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: sokoloff on August 20, 2019, 08:33:54 pm
Is it too much to ask that people who have never even driven an EV refrain from posting in an "Electric Car Experiences" thread? I mean if you don't have any direct experiences, then what exactly can you contribute?
Though I daily drive a LEAF, I think there are people who've never driven an electric who can contribute their own relevant points of view in reaction to range anxiety, TCO, purchase price reaction, etc.

It's extraordinarily rare that an internet forum thread stays singularly focused and narrowly scoped to the subject line of the thread.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: james_s on August 20, 2019, 08:50:05 pm
I'm not saying a topic can't wander, I mean I'm certainly guilty of that myself. I just find the constant posts ripping on EVs with baseless arguments, previously debunked myths, deflect, deflect, move the goalpost, wash, rinse, repeat from a person or persons who have never even driven one to be rather tiresome and predictable. 

And on the topic of experiences, while I haven't owned an EV, I have driven a Meyers NMG, Nissan Leaf, Chevy Spark and a Kia Soul EV. The NMG did not impress me greatly but it was novel at the time as one of the first highway capable EVs. The Leaf felt remarkably like any other modern compact car I've driven. The Spark is crazy fast, at least off the line is feels quicker than the BMW M3 I drove a few times years ago. The Soul is similar to the Leaf in feel, not exciting to drive but smooth and quiet and a lot quicker and more responsive than a Prius. With exception of the NMG, the friends and family members with the other EVs are still driving them after several years and still rave about them. All are used for commuting and driving around town, picking up groceries, dropping off and picking up kids, etc. I can only roll my eyes when someone starts listing reasons EVs don't work when so many people are somehow able to manage with them just fine.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: tom66 on August 20, 2019, 09:20:11 pm
Because they have more power at low RPM but that doesn't really matter.

I think you may misunderstand something here, an electric motor generally has very high torque at low RPM but power is determined by the torque and speed of the motor, so power output at low RPM is low by definition.

? How does that match climbing uphill needing more torque when you are in the area where the torque is declining?

If you are accelerating up hill in a car that is in the power-limited region you will find your acceleration is limited by the need to put more energy in to climb the hill. Power rating is the most meaningful figure as for most intents and purposes at speed you will be above the constant torque region and in the constant power region. Therefore more power means more acceleration, for the same given weight.

In my car I can use the full 85kW to climb a steep hill at 70 mph.  The battery depletes rapidly and the power limit starts kicking in.  It is enough to get to the end (4 miles) without any problem but I expend over 4kWh doing that.  But that is fine - the car was always designed as a short range PHEV so you will never really be able to overheat the car for any meaningful climb (I have tried it on a very long climb, once the power limit gets to 50%, the engine starts automatically.)  A more efficient vehicle with a higher power motor and a larger battery will have no problem accelerating up hills, nobody complains about a Tesla overheating when driving up steep 3000ft highway climbs at 70 mph. Of course the range is poor, but an internal combustion engine will have similar drop in fuel economy.  At least the EV going down hill will get good economy because the e-motor can act as a generator. 

I took a different route home today and used the motorway. I sat in the slow lane at 60 mph with the adaptive cruise on, and still achieved 15kWh/100km, with the car regening nicely down the steep hills and putting a bit of power out up the hill.  I managed to achieve the rated mileage of the car, and with adaptive cruise, felt almost no stress compared to trying to weave in and out of lanes at 70-80 mph. But, perhaps the electric car "economy bug" is getting to me.  I keep trying to achieve better than that figure.  I suspect in winter, with winter tyres on,thicker & colder air, and the heating running, I will struggle to get as good as I do in summer, but it will be interesting to watch.  I want a really cold winter this year so I can test that.

Even worse, you can fit a different motor with half the torque and the same power rating and still get exactly the same accelleration. Only this motor will run at double the RPM and the gear ratio needs to be changed as well.

I'm not sure what your point is here.  If you change the gear ratio, you change the torque. All torque figures are given after any gearbox effects. Unless I am misunderstanding you?

And there is more to it. At the research institute where I used to work they did tests to determine how people perceive accelleration of a car. Interestingly the fastest accelleration isn't perceived as fast at all. A constant torque (and thus increasing power) is perceived as a faster accelleration than using constant (maximum) power. That is why most car motors/engines are controlled to have a constant torque (the graph you posted is a nice example). You can try it yourself if the engine in your car has such a characteristic. When the maximum power is reached it will feel like a dud when you want to accellerate further. In an ICE (usually with a turbo-charged engine) this effect will tempt you to change gears but in reality you are making things worse.

An ICE will have low torque at low RPM.  Almost by definition it cannot have a constant torque region.  Most ICE vehicles with auto gearboxes (in acceleration or sport profile) are keeping the engine in a high power region, where power fluctuates about 10-20% over the RPM range between each gear. The GTE compensates for this fluctuation by having the e-motor provide less assistance at higher engine RPMs; this means the output power is roughly constant over the RPM range, 2000-6200rpm. But the GTE is unusual in this design, most ICE hybrids are not designed for performance, and most ICE vehicles are not hybrids...
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: nctnico on August 20, 2019, 09:40:47 pm
I'm not sure what your point is here.  If you change the gear ratio, you change the torque. All torque figures are given after any gearbox effects. Unless I am misunderstanding you?
It is my understanding that with cars in general the torque figure is that of the motor/engine and not of what gets on the wheels. Or at least any torque/power graph I've seen so far shows the torque of the motor/engine and not what ends up on the wheels. I think your graph also shows engine torque and not torque on the wheel. A long time ago I calculated what kind of torque you can produce on the wheels in 1st gear. I ended up with a crazy number like 1000Nm or something like that for a relatively small ICE engine. So around 400Nm seems a low-ish number to me to drive the wheels. If I assume the graph is for a Model S with wheels with a 25" diameter then I get to a power output of about 100kW at 50mph (2400 RPM) based on the torque so it seems the graph shows the engine torque and not the torque on the wheels. Again, you can make the motor/engine torque anything you want. As long as the power output stays the same, the accelleration will be the same.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: dr.diesel on August 21, 2019, 01:07:26 am
It is my understanding that with cars in general the torque figure is that of the motor/engine and not of what gets on the wheels.

In the US anyhow, this is correct, all power figures are at the flywheel, not wheels.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: james_s on August 21, 2019, 01:38:47 am
The power figures are at the flywheel, but obviously what you feel is the power at the wheels. I'm not sure what difference this makes though, ultimately specs only tell you part of the story anyway, to get the rest you have to evaluate the car as a whole.

To me the EVs I've driven certainly feel quicker and more responsive than comparable ICE cars. That instant response and tremendous low end torque makes them really leap from a stop.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: bdunham7 on August 21, 2019, 04:05:31 am
The power figures are at the flywheel, but obviously what you feel is the power at the wheels. I'm not sure what difference this makes though, ultimately specs only tell you part of the story anyway, to get the rest you have to evaluate the car as a whole.

To me the EVs I've driven certainly feel quicker and more responsive than comparable ICE cars. That instant response and tremendous low end torque makes them really leap from a stop.

My EV is torque-limited or torque-reduced up to 10-15MPH and then it takes off.  I have 3 rather ordinary cars, and of the 3 the EV definitely feels the quickest, but by the numbers it is the slowest.  It seems to be programmed so that if you put your foot down 1/4 of the way it feels strong, but if you go further there's nothing else left.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: Jeroen3 on August 21, 2019, 07:31:36 am
Your discussion is going straight past each other saying the same things.
Yes an EV is limited by torque. But only because the motor is limited by current, or because the drivetrain/tires can't take the torque.
Torque is force without work. If you add work before speed the motor burns, so you limit torque current.

In an ICE you have to wait for explosions to get torque. Torque is a derivative of the explosion. Yet only many explosions support lots of work. If you add work before speed you stall it. Same problem.

An EV doesn't need to wait until enough explosions are happening to do work. Thus it's faster and better.

It seems to be programmed so that if you put your foot down 1/4 of the way it feels strong, but if you go further there's nothing else left.
It's probably limited for safety. Otherwise you'd be going 80 kmh/50 mph before the end of the intersection. You should enable "ludicrous" mode if you have it.  :P

My hybrid is extremely laggy when the battery is low. It needs 5000 rpm just to drive off.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: nctnico on August 21, 2019, 10:31:36 am
The power figures are at the flywheel, but obviously what you feel is the power at the wheels. I'm not sure what difference this makes though, ultimately specs only tell you part of the story anyway, to get the rest you have to evaluate the car as a whole.

To me the EVs I've driven certainly feel quicker and more responsive than comparable ICE cars. That instant response and tremendous low end torque makes them really leap from a stop.
Either way be aware that motors/engines in a car are setup to fool your senses.

Still I think that an electric motor has another advantage over an ICE engine. On an electric motor it is easier to control the traction. IMHO this also helps to get a car quicker from it's place. I recall reading about diesel locomotives in which the diesel engine is not driving the wheels directly but a generator which in turn drives an electric motor because an electric motor has easier/better control over traction.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: tom66 on August 21, 2019, 11:22:23 am
Still I think that an electric motor has another advantage over an ICE engine. On an electric motor it is easier to control the traction. IMHO this also helps to get a car quicker from it's place. I recall reading about diesel locomotives in which the diesel engine is not driving the wheels directly but a generator which in turn drives an electric motor because an electric motor has easier/better control over traction.

The traction control response is much better in EVs. Depending on the vehicle of course.

Most ICE vehicles traction control just interrupts spark/fuel or otherwise tells the ECU to not supply power for that revolution. So the power is "choppy".  Some newer cars can modulate the power better but are limited to the response rate of the engine.

The GTE does not have spectacularly great traction control (can judder on a start), but the Model 3 is fantastic.

Diesel locomotives have been using the setup you describe for quite some time.  Braking is often rheostatic, and different speeds are utilised by selecting taps on either the motor or generator. Some vehicles are hybrid, using the 25kV overhead line and a diesel generator to supplement this (or running the diesel engine on sections without overhead lines or between points.)
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: SilverSolder on August 21, 2019, 11:58:48 am

The traction control response is much better in EVs. [...]


Even under manual control, I have found electric traction motors (on a hybrid in my case) are much better for driving in snow -  it is just so much easier to get the force "just right" to move the car without spinning the wheels.  Even if you do manage to get stuck, electric is far easier to control to get you out of the hole - you can do the "rocking" trick starting with just a few mm movement and eventually get out.  This can be done with an ICE too, of course, but it is not as easy to control "just so" as with electric drive.
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: tom66 on August 21, 2019, 12:16:49 pm
Yeah, 100% agreed there.  The electric mode on my car can creep at very low speeds precisely. I can creep up a 1 in 3 hill at less than 1 mph and the car feels perfectly controllable, try doing that in a manual or automatic ICE and it is nearly impossible. 
Title: Re: Electric Car Experiences
Post by: mcf12 on September 01, 2019, 03:13:26 pm
I drive a BMW i3, love it. perfect metro commuter car. simple tweaks like wheel spacers dramatically improve handing over stock.

And I also convert old gas motorcycles to electric, which is crazy fun. You can see more
here: http://nightshiftbikes.com (http://nightshiftbikes.com)
and
here https://www.instagram.com/nightshiftbikes/ (https://www.instagram.com/nightshiftbikes/)

Happy to answer any questions. Much to learn....