EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Electronics => Power/Renewable Energy/EV's => Topic started by: boffin on August 02, 2018, 08:07:10 pm
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I'm starting this off as a new topic for those interested in discussions around the viability of owning and operating electric vehicles.
Experiences such as range, charging solutions, real-world economics, idiosyncrasies of your vehcile and more
For myself, I drive a new VW eGolf, and it's been great so far (other than a flat tire). Economy is amazing, about 14kWh/100k out of the battery, call it 16kWh when you consider charging efficiency.
Anyone else want to add their experiences with their electric (or PHEV) ?
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I've had a Zero FXS electric motorbike for the last year. I absolutely love it. It's not a motorway mile cruncher or suited to touring, but it's great fun and ideal for commuting.
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4 years ago I purchased a Chevy Volt. I never thought I'd purchase a compact American car but after reading so many positive reviews....
I understood the technical advantages of moving a vehicle with an electric motor vs an ICE and I knew I would be saving money on gasoline but what I did not appreciate was just how nice it is not having to go to the gasoline station once a week. My current lifetime average is 208 mpg. I rarely need to use any gasoline - only for the occasional long car trip. I only put gas in it about twice a year.
The experience has been so positive, we just bought my wife a PHEV minivan - the Chrysler Pacifica PHEV.
I also own a Toyota 4WD Tundra pick up truck I use for hauling garbage, recycling and construction materials. It also serves as our emergency vehicle during heavy snow falls when the roads have not yet been plowed. As soon as there is a good 4WD EV truck available, I'll be replacing the Tundra...
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I bought a 2018 Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV a few months ago and so far it has been brilliant, 1200 miles without putting any petrol in it yet.
It is definitely a short trip shopping car with a proposed electric range of 32 miles and I am quite surprised that I am actually getting an easy (summer time) 28 miles range.
Charging while away from home is a non starter, there is either a 4 hour charge time to do another 28 miles, or a fast charge (30 mins) to get another 24 miles which is more expensive than putting a gallon of petrol in the car.
The thing that surprises me most about all this (with the recent kerfuffle about exhaust emissions in mind) is that anybody actually believes the performance figures quoted by the car manufacturers, which are purely aimed at selling the car to the public and not giving them any real idea of the performance they can expect from the car.
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The thing that surprises me most about all this (with the recent kerfuffle about exhaust emissions in mind) is that anybody actually believes the performance figures quoted by the car manufacturers, which are purely aimed at selling the car to the public and not giving them any real idea of the performance they can expect from the car.
I actually think right now that some companies (I'm looking at your VW) are completely paranoid about exactly that. For example my eGolf is quoted 200km/charge, but I routinely get about 225-240
As for actual mileage, I'm seeing about 14kWh/100km, even with charging losses of what appear to be around 10% the numbers are quite stunning
15½ kWh @ C$0.085/kWh = C$1.32/100km whereas the ICE version of the same car uses about 8l of gasoline @$1.46/l, or $11.68
As for AC/heater usage, using the AC seems to add 1-2kW to the draw, not a huge draw, and certainly not enough to scare me about it.
For 90% of the people out there, a BEV is a viable alternative. There's always going to be people who need regular long drives etc, but I probably do 200+km drives in a day about 2/year, and it either takes a little planning, or to simply rent a car when I do need non-EV range.
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Have had a Nissan LEAF as my daily driver for ~44 months now. Overall, it's been great.
Unfortunately, the battery range is a little snug to get me home or work to the airport and back with perfect comfort/reliability. It's pretty reliably able to do it, and was perfectly reliable and then some when the battery was new.
We also have an ICE car, so any long range trips that aren't done by air are done by that car. As the guy who turns the wrenches on all our stuff, I much prefer the electric. :)
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and it either takes a little planning, or to simply rent a car when I do need non-EV range.
You keep saying that but I doubt you ever tried it. I've been down that road a couple of years ago thinking we could do with one car and rent a car if necessary. Well that turned out to be a huge miscalculation. The financial break even point for owning a (second hand) car was less than a year. Note that when renting a car you are also paying for depreciation with a big profit on top.
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and it either takes a little planning, or to simply rent a car when I do need non-EV range.
You keep saying that but I doubt you ever tried it. I've been down that road a couple of years ago thinking we could do with one car and rent a car if necessary. Well that turned out to be a huge miscalculation. The financial break even point for owning a (second hand) car was less than a year. Note that when renting a car you are also paying for depreciation with a big profit on top.
How many days a year of renting do you expect you would have to pay for?
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Rental cars are cheap in the US. $30-40 a day, $200-300 for a week with unlimited miles. Auto insurance alone in most parts of the US will cost you $1000 a year per vehicle for liability coverage alone.
I’ve known non-EV owners who use rental cars for any long trips just because they don’t trust their cheap commuter vehicle.
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Rental cars are cheap in the US. $30-40 a day, $200-300 for a week with unlimited miles. Auto insurance alone in most parts of the US will cost you $1000 a year per vehicle for liability coverage alone.
My car insurance costs way less but due to not claiming anything for many years got me a hefty discount.
Those low rental prices usually are for very small cars. If you want a decent car the price nearly doubles and then there is the extra insurance. But as I wrote before I already tried to 'optimise' cars. My previous car was a sedan. My thinking was: I don't need a station wagon every day and I'll sort things out when I need to transport something large. Well that turned out to be a really bad idea. Fortunately my wife had a relatively large hatch-back so I could use that to transport larger items but it still didn't do the job well. I recall buying a couple of windows but those where too large for the lid to close so I had to drive around to find a shopping mall first to but a piece of rope to tie it shut. Same for a dish-washer and many other items. Buying a car which can't do the 1% you need every now and then just sucks. Nowadays I'm back to the station wagon. I hope this underlines my point when I'm saying that buying a car which can only do 99% (or less) of the use cases is going to be a nuisance because it doesn't deliver when you need it the most.
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No, it's a nuisance for *you*. For many other people it's not a big deal at all. You've been harping on the same ridiculous things post after post after post, and frankly I don't understand your obsession with it. Why can't you just do your thing and let other people do what works for them? You have an almost religious belief regarding this topic, no fact would ever sway your mind, so what is the point?
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No, it's a nuisance for *you*. For many other people it's not a big deal at all. You've been harping on the same ridiculous things post after post after post, and frankly I don't understand your obsession with it. Why can't you just do your thing and let other people do what works for them?
Perhaps you should try to *understand* what I write. I'm just writing down what I've learned during the past decades. There is no need to repeat my mistakes if you care to take notice. But then again: you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
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Rental cars are cheap in the US. $30-40 a day, $200-300 for a week with unlimited miles. Auto insurance alone in most parts of the US will cost you $1000 a year per vehicle for liability coverage alone.
I’ve known non-EV owners who use rental cars for any long trips just because they don’t trust their cheap commuter vehicle.
Just to give you a feeling how it is different in EU, here in Croatia to rent Skoda Octavia (what you in USA would consider smaller sedan) is 80ish € a day. On my car (Toyota RAV4) I pay 350 € insurance a year. My Toyota would be more than 100€ a day rented.
I lived in USA for few years. Many people in USA cannot understand how different USA is than the rest of the world, especially how market is different. Some stuff here is 5x more expensive than in USA, some is 5x less expensive. It's different.
So generalizations that something that works for you in USA ( and I you believe it does ) will work here too is not right. It might work even better, it might not work at all.
Market, infrastructure etc is different. And then there are differences across EU. Poor countries VS rich ones, cultural diffs: French likes this, Germans that, Italian somethin else...
Many things don't work like they do in USA. Electric cars, solar tech... Different economic environment...
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I lived in USA for few years. Many people in USA cannot understand how different USA is than the rest of the world, especially how market is different. Some stuff here is 5x more expensive than in USA, some is 5x less expensive. It's different.
So generalizations that something that works for you in USA ( and I you believe it does ) will work here too is not right. It might work even better, it might not work at all.
Fair enough but I was not generalizing - in fact I specifically noted that I was referring to the US in repsone to a poster who was extrpolating his experience to others. And FWIW, I’ve travelled extensively through Europe, including one 8 month work/travel trip, so i am well aware of the differences between the US/Canada and Europe as well as the variations among European countries.
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I expect one of the places you'll see an explosion of BEV in the next few years are short-distance (city) delivery vehicles. When I was a kid (in the UK), milk was delivered by an electric vehicle; that was the 70s. Surely it would be even more efficient today.
How many km/day does the avg FedEx/UPS/Mail truck drive?
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I expect one of the places you'll see an explosion of BEV in the next few years are short-distance (city) delivery vehicles. When I was a kid (in the UK), milk was delivered by an electric vehicle; that was the 70s. Surely it would be even more efficient today.
How many km/day does the avg FedEx/UPS/Mail truck drive?
In some places those parcel delivery companies are already heavy users of electric delivery vans. They seem to be leading the use of these vehicles. I guess they have more stop start action than most other delivery van activity, and gett the greatest benefit from regen.
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I went to a used equipment dealer here in the UK a couple of years ago and they had just purchased 15 fairly large electric delivery vehicles which had come to the end of a lease agreement. They cleaned them up and resold them for 3 times more than they had paid for them. A large (high 5 or low 6 figure sum) profit for having enough courage to buy them and hope there was a resale market.
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Got a Tesla Model 3 a few weeks back. Always wanted a electric car and the opportunity presented its self so I grabbed it. So far its been great, I need to upgrade my charging circuit at home (240V-20 Amp-Charges at 16A ), but insofar so good.
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Got a Tesla Model 3 a few weeks back.
The best car available today in the price/range.
We are eager to get it in Europe, as the size and range is especially well suited for our roads.
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Anyone else want to add their experiences with their electric (or PHEV) ?
Well, since you included PHEV (which I guess is similar to a PZEV) I have a Honda Civic Hybrid. It has a different engine than regular Civics, with variable intake valve timing and the ability to cut off several cylinders. So, it has no throttle, but reduces engine output by allowing less fuel/air charge into the cylinders. This takes several seconds to do, so would be unnerving without the hybrid motor/generator. With the hybrid system, any time you move the gas pedal, it immediately uses the hybrid motor/battery to supply or extract the required energy until the valve timing is adjusted.
Rather complex stuff, but it seems to work really well, and reliably. They also have a chain-drive continuously variable transmission, with a wet-pack clutch similar to what is on a motorcycle.
Anyway, it all works quite well, and when ** I ALONE ** drive it, I can get over 50 MPG using US gasohol. When my family drives it, they can get the mileage down into the 40's right away. (ugh) The only problem I've had with it is the battery pack blew at 68,000 miles, and is getting ready to do it again. Whoever thought you could put 120 Ni-MH D-cells in series with no cell balancing and hit it will 100 A charge and discharge cycles for years should have been fired (and maybe put in the nut house). It is totally amazing that the battery can take that abuse for several years before slowly going bad.
So, I like it, and may get another hybrid. I'm wondering if the Toyota Prius Prime (plug-in hybrid) might be my next car.
Jon
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Interesting system, but yeah. Why do they use nimh in 2018 in the first place ? Why no lithium tech ?
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I know four people who have bought Tesla model S and X in the last year and disappeared. I don’t think this is a conspiracy or anything. They’re just sitting in them all day with a big smile on :)
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So, it has no throttle, but reduces engine output by allowing less fuel/air charge into the cylinders.
Isn't that exactly how a throttle normally works?
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So, it has no throttle, but reduces engine output by allowing less fuel/air charge into the cylinders.
Isn't that exactly how a throttle normally works?
Effectively, yes. The throttle (on a conventional gasoline engine) controls the amount of air that can enter the intake manifold. This in turn determines the amount of fuel injected into the air immediately prior to entering the cylinder.
Diesel engines on the other hand have no throttle, the power output is controlled by adjusting the amount of fuel injected directly into the combustion chamber.
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I bought a Chevy Bolt 14 months ago, and love it. Its really is fun to drive, quiet, reliable and has enough range for anything but long trips. What's not to like?
The Bolt has an EPA listing of 238 miles, but can approach 260 miles in ideal weather where I live. However, in the Winter, it can dip as low as 150 miles.
So, If you live in a colder climate, make sure you have plenty of excess range. And a 240v charger- a 120v will barely charge the car at all in the cold. Rich Rebuilds has said that his Model S has LOST range in the winter while plugged in to 120v!
32A EVSE is not necessary unless you average over 100 miles a day driving, though. Pretty much any 240v will be plenty.
ESVEs have really been coming down in price and I expect that to continue. I paid $250 for my 16A charger a year ago but the same charger is $175 now. There just isn't much to them.
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Rental cars are cheap in the US. $30-40 a day, $200-300 for a week with unlimited miles. Auto insurance alone in most parts of the US will cost you $1000 a year per vehicle for liability coverage alone.
I’ve known non-EV owners who use rental cars for any long trips just because they don’t trust their cheap commuter vehicle.
Rentals can be as little as £12 a day here if you want a small car, I paid £17 a day with unlimited mileage for a Vauxhall Insignia (which I think is a Buick Regal in the US?) when I went to Scotland for a week.
I don't currently have a car so I'm looking at options and at the moment but an EV is working out to be the more expensive option even if I buy second hand.
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So, it has no throttle, but reduces engine output by allowing less fuel/air charge into the cylinders.
Isn't that exactly how a throttle normally works?
Effectively, yes. The throttle (on a conventional gasoline engine) controls the amount of air that can enter the intake manifold. This in turn determines the amount of fuel injected into the air immediately prior to entering the cylinder.
Diesel engines on the other hand have no throttle, the power output is controlled by adjusting the amount of fuel injected directly into the combustion chamber.
It's still a throttle, it just meters fuel, not fuel+air. Also some modern gasoline engines use gasoline direct injection, rather than pre-mixing air/fuel. (Hydundai have a bunch of GDI engines)
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While the term "throttle" is widely applied to any mechanism of regulating power output, technically the term most accurately describes the butterfly valve or other mechanism used to restrict airflow into the engine. As a verb to throttle is to choke or suffocate.
I'm aware of GDI engines, which is why I specifically mentioned "conventional" gasoline engines. GDI is an interesting technology, I'm somewhat surprised it was not more widespread sooner as it has been around for a long time. Many of the German aircraft engines from WWII were GDI, using mechanical injection pumps similar to older diesel engines.
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While the term "throttle" is widely applied to any mechanism of regulating power output, technically the term most accurately describes the butterfly valve or other mechanism used to restrict airflow into the engine. As a verb to throttle is to choke or suffocate.
I'm aware of GDI engines, which is why I specifically mentioned "conventional" gasoline engines. GDI is an interesting technology, I'm somewhat surprised it was not more widespread sooner as it has been around for a long time. Many of the German aircraft engines from WWII were GDI, using mechanical injection pumps similar to older diesel engines.
In general GDI engines have problems with sooth contamination in combination with exhaust recirculation. Mitsubishi can tell you all about their misfortunes when it comes to their GDI engines from the mid 90's. The primary problem is running the engines at low loads which shouldn't happen with the current downsized tubocharged engines.
See: https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=38913 (https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=38913)
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Interesting system, but yeah. Why do they use nimh in 2018 in the first place ? Why no lithium tech ?
Oh, they DON'T! Mine is a 2009, they went to Li (something) in 2011, I think. My daughter has an old Prius, which always had Li batteries, and hers is still going strong on the original battery.
Jon
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Isn't that exactly how a throttle normally works?
The throttle of an Otto-cycle engine puts a restriction in the intake manifold, and the engine has to work against that restriction to get air into the cylinders. This is called "pumping loss" in the industry, and is a very significant loss of engine efficiency. The Honda scheme allows the intake valve to stay open later, bridging from the intake stroke to the compression stroke, effectively shortening the intake stroke and the charge in the cylinder. There is SOME loss there, as air passes the intake valve twice, but there is never any manifold vacuum, so at mid-throttle conditions, the pumping loss is reduced to a tiny amount. This is a modified Atkinson cycle engine.
They also have a mode where they can shut all 16 valves while running in pure electric mode, and there is zero fuel consumption. Due to the small size of the motor and battery, you can't drive very far like that - like 1/4 mile down a slight hill, maybe.
Jon
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I own two. I drive a Tesla Model-X 90D with all options and my wife has a Tesla Model-S 90D with most of the options.
I use autopilot on a daily basis to go to-from work. We both charge at home or at work.
For long trips : supercharger. We've done roadtrips to LA, Yosemite and other places. Last weekend we were in Lake County. charged the car fully the night before. Ran nonstop for 3 1/2 hours to Ukiah. Hooked it to the supercharger, went grocery shopping for 40 minutes and the battery was completely full again ( 240 miles ). Then we drove to Soda bay for a 4 day weekend. Drove around the area. plugged it in a regular 110 volt outlet during the night. That gives me about 40 miles in 10 hours. More than enough for the sightseeing and compensate for daily usage. On the way we stopped in Petaluma for lunch while hooked at the supercharger there. In 30 minuted the battery was topped off and we arrived home with 110 miles remaining.
I bought my first one almost 5 years ago Model-S 75. After driving that for almost 6 months i figured out : this is the future , and that is a company i want to work for. ( I was at ST Microelectronics at the time ). So i switched.
After my lease term was up i upgraded to a newer version Model-S. Last year i got married so my wife now drives the S and i got a model X.
I am writing this as a driver. Not as employee.
The only adaptation needed : a power outlet in the garage. As for daily driving : the battery is so large it is a non-issue.
For roadtrips : you can drive 3+ hours nonstop at highway speed. Then it is time for pipi and a starbucks anyway. Plug it in, visit restroom and grab a coffee and the thing is full.
Sure you can fill gasoline faster. But it is more fun to stretch the legs for 30 minutes. you arrive less tired at your destination.
Again : full disclosure : i work there , but i bought my first one before that. Am writing this purely as a driver of an EV. And no, there are no employee perks. All you get is free air in the tires.
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Oh, they DON'T! Mine is a 2009, they went to Li (something) in 2011, I think. My daughter has an old Prius, which always had Li batteries, and hers is still going strong on the original battery.
Jon
My partner has a first gen Prius, it's a 2002 which is in every way I can determine, identical to the 2001 it replaced after somebody rear-ended her and totaled it. To my absolute amazement, the original battery is still going strong after 16 years. I replaced the 12V battery after it failed several years ago but never touched the traction battery. It's easily one of the most boring driving experiences I can ever recall but in terms of getting from point A to point B I have been astonished at the dependability. Of course now that I said that it will probably break down.
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They also have a mode where they can shut all 16 valves while running in pure electric mode, and there is zero fuel consumption. Due to the small size of the motor and battery, you can't drive very far like that - like 1/4 mile down a slight hill, maybe.
What is the purpose of closing all the valves? Does the engine not disengage from the transmission in pure EV mode? I'd have thought even with the compression acting like a spring that the friction losses of spinning an engine with all the valves closed would still be huge but I don't really know.
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They also have a mode where they can shut all 16 valves while running in pure electric mode, and there is zero fuel consumption. Due to the small size of the motor and battery, you can't drive very far like that - like 1/4 mile down a slight hill, maybe.
What is the purpose of closing all the valves? Does the engine not disengage from the transmission in pure EV mode? I'd have thought even with the compression acting like a spring that the friction losses of spinning an engine with all the valves closed would still be huge but I don't really know.
All this talk about gas and diesel engines in an EV thread. :=\
Anyway, what's the alternative? If you hold the intake valve open like an unloaded air compressor the piston will hit it at TDC and there's all kinds of losses associated with opening and closing the valve over and over for no reason.
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What is the purpose of closing all the valves? Does the engine not disengage from the transmission in pure EV mode? I'd have thought even with the compression acting like a spring that the friction losses of spinning an engine with all the valves closed would still be huge but I don't really know.
In the Honda Civic Hybrid, the traction motor/generator is built into the flywheel of the IC engine. So, Honda cheaped-out of the drivetrain. (Probably to not infringe on the Toyota Prius drivetrain.)
The motor is permanently connected to the IC engine, if one is spinning, the other is, too. With all valves closed, the friction in the engine is amazingly small.
If you want to check this out, you need an OLD car, pre-computerized drivetrain. Put the transmission in LOW, and accelerate to, maybe 30 MPH. Turn the ignition off and simultaneously floor the accelerator. Let the car coast for a few seconds, then take your foot off the accelerator. The difference is the pumping loss of the engine throttle. You will be amazed at how well the car coasts with the throttle wide open, and how quickly the engine brakes the car when you close the throttle. (Note: Do not turn the ignition back on while the car is moving, or you will likely blow the muffler up!)
So, it seems that they DID know what they were doing, and got quite low friction with all the mechanical works spinning.
The Honda Civic Hybrid does not really have a "pure EV mode", you cannot start from a standstill in pure EV, but you can run for very short distances or down a slight hill as a pure EV, or just coast with NO energy input, when plain inertia and potential energy are sufficient.
Jon
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Well all of my cars qualify as old in that sense, newest I've ever owned is a 1990, every car I've had has a proper manual gearbox. I think I'll take your word for it though rather than actually trying that.
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Still I think it should read 'all valves open' and probably only the exhaust valves as to not damage the throttle and inlet because the inlet is usually made from plastic nowadays. With the valves closed you'll get compression and thus losses in the engine.
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That was my first thought, but most modern engines are of the interference design so if the valves are left open the pistons crash and that's a really ugly situation. It may be that the valves being closed causes the pistons to behave like a reasonably efficient spring, the energy spent compressing the air is returned to the crank on the downstroke since no pumping is taking place.
I don't want to derail the thread more than I already have though.
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That was my first thought, but most modern engines are of the interference design so if the valves are left open the pistons crash and that's a really ugly situation. It may be that the valves being closed causes the pistons to behave like a reasonably efficient spring, the energy spent compressing the air is returned to the crank on the downstroke since no pumping is taking place.
You have a point there but the laws of thermodynamics may not agree with an closed of cylinder being an efficient spring. When a gas is being compressed, it gets hot so there must be more to it than just keeping the valves closed. But yes while interesting, this is off-topic.
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Still I think it should read 'all valves open' and probably only the exhaust valves as to not damage the throttle and inlet because the inlet is usually made from plastic nowadays. With the valves closed you'll get compression and thus losses in the engine.
But, the compression is (almost) exactly balanced by expansion, so the only losses are mechanical friction. Anyway, this whole system actually works quite well, and has been rock-solid reliable, which pretty much amazes me.
Jon
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Yes, but it's pretty much obsolete by today's standards.
Because the entirety of the primary energy is still only gasoline, with it's very bad efficiency in a car engine of about 15%
Today, in state of the art vehicles and systems the primary energy required for moving the same car is reduced by a very huge factor:
- factor 2.5x reduction supposing an unlikely using 100% fossil fuels based electricity feeding a BEV through the grid
- factor 8x reduction supposing wind or hydro energy based electricity feeding a BEV through the grid
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Still I think it should read 'all valves open' and probably only the exhaust valves as to not damage the throttle and inlet because the inlet is usually made from plastic nowadays. With the valves closed you'll get compression and thus losses in the engine.
But, the compression is (almost) exactly balanced by expansion, so the only losses are mechanical friction. Anyway, this whole system actually works quite well, and has been rock-solid reliable, which pretty much amazes me.
Jon
It will be with the exhaust valves open. Compressing air 9:1 generates a lot of heat taking energy out of the system.
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It will be with the exhaust valves open. Compressing air 9:1 generates a lot of heat taking energy out of the system.
Doesn't letting that air expand absorb most of that same heat? Obviously this is not 100% efficient but nothing is. With the valves open there will be pumping losses due to the restrictions, with the valves closed there will be increased friction losses due to the greater mechanical forces on the pistons and crank but some of the energy used compressing the air will be recovered as the air expands.
I'm not an expert on these matters but I'm going to assume the Honda engineers knew what they were doing and performed extensive testing to verify the scheme had a net positive result.
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It will be with the exhaust valves open. Compressing air 9:1 generates a lot of heat taking energy out of the system.
Believe me, I have studied what Honda did with the Civic Hybrid, they close ALL valves during shutdown and coasting. This actually has lower losses than with some valves open, as passing gas past open valves causes fluid friction. If you compressed gas and then let it escape, it sure would cause losses. (That's what big trucks do when using engine braking, they compress intake air and then let it out by opening the exhaust valves early.)
But, with all valves closed and the pistons QUICKLY cycling up and down in a hot engine block, very little energy is lost from the air to the block.
The trick is the heat of compression is almost totally balanced when the cylinder charge expands as the piston goes back down, just milliseconds later.
The Honda scheme does it by using engine oil to push the cam followers sideways so they don't push on the valve tips. Also, engine oil is used to drive the rotary cylinder that alters the intake cam timing. Damn intricate system, but I've never heard of it going wrong.
Jon
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Yay, Model 3 production is running well now :
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-tracker/ (https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-tracker/)
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If you open the exhaust valve of a cilynder that's inactive exhaust gases would try to enter the cylinder because there's a higher pressure in the exhaust than in the cylinder.
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Let's try again to put this into the EV fanboys' heads: to the kWh/km figures you see on the dashboard, you've got to add the charger+battery round trip losses, this guy says the overall efficiency of a Model 3 is ~80%, which means to get the real figure you've got to divide the dashboard numbers by 0.8. For example, if your EV dashboard says 233 Wh/mile the real thing is 233/0.8 = 291 Wh/mile, or 18 kWh/100 km for the europeans.
https://youtu.be/x0MjZOR89Fk
Note that that ~ 80% figure is an average though, the real losses in a supergharger are more than that, JFYI, and charging repeatedly at a supercharger shortens the life of the battery, or, IOW, damages it. Hyundai says it very clearly in the ioniq BEV owners' manual, Tesla, IDK.
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It takes a special kind of EV hater to spend their time looking through youtube videos about EVs just to find one to try and support a lost argument from weeks ago. And then to post it in multiple threads ::)
Get over it George. It doesn’t matter whether round trip charge efficiency is 80%, 85% or 90%. The energy effiiency and cost of ownership of a typical EV will still be far better than a typical ICE only vehicle.
We get it. You are opposed to EVs. This thread was meant to be for people with personal experiences with EVs.
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It takes a special kind of EV hater [...] We get it. You are opposed to EVs. This thread was meant to be for people with personal experiences with EVs.
Look, you're making things up: my twizy is now almost 7 years old. I just want the EV fanboys to learn how to count kWh. Take it easy.
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...my twizy is now almost 7 years old...
What mileage do you get with your twizy?
I'm looking at buying one, is 10Km per KWh a reasonable number to calculate with?
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Rest assured it can do 60..70 km per charge, pedal to the floor, more (closer to 100km) if you drive like a grandma. Driving on ~ flat roads, not uphill.
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It takes a special kind of EV hater to spend their time looking through youtube videos about EVs just to find one to try and support a lost argument from weeks ago. And then to post it in multiple threads ::)
Get over it George. It doesn’t matter whether round trip charge efficiency is 80%, 85% or 90%. The energy effiiency and cost of ownership of a typical EV will still be far better than a typical ICE only vehicle.
We get it. You are opposed to EVs. This thread was meant to be for people with personal experiences with EVs.
Notice the country he is from.
Regardless of whether those efficiency numbers are valid, his costs (and mine too, if I was to buy an EV here in France) would be totally different than yours.
Here a pure EV costs about 50%-75% more than a comparable gasoline car, pushing prices of even small cars to ridiculous levels. You would be very hard pressed to find an EV under 33k-35k euro here (except for Renault Zoe but there you need to add also the monthly "battery rental" fee - yes, Renault is that retarded). For a 35k I can have a much better/larger gasoline (or even diesel) car, e.g. Mercedes C class or some BMW.
Also, if you don't own a house (a lot more people in Europe live in flats than houses vs the situation in your country) then you don't have where to charge it except for public chargers at supermarkets at such. That's extremely impractical as few people live nearby those. So all that wonderful electric fuel economy is worth exactly zero to me if I can't charge the car ...
The price and the fact that most of the current car owners wouldn't be able to have an access to a fast charger (not 15+ hours from a regular outlet, never mind that most parkings don't have even such outlets available) is one of the largest issues preventing faster adoption of EVs in Europe.
Owning a second "backup" car tends to be also very costly here, especially for large city dwellers who have to rent parking places (even in the street!) or a garage. Insurance, mandatory inspections, etc is non-negligible as well, plus insurance in most EU countries is per car, not per driver, so these costs add up very quickly if you own multiple vehicles.
And renting a car for an occasional long trip? Well, in that case it is often cheaper to take a plane than to deal with the rental here. Decent car is ~100 euro/day + gas/mileage from the usual outfits like Europcar or Avis. If I had to rent one to visit my parents 1500km from where I live, as I have done few weeks ago with my Seat Leon, I would pay about 1000 euro for the 10 days rental alone, then about 250 euro gas*. You can fly to the US and back for that and you will still have money left. Renting for such trip is just not a viable option. Been there done that ...
So you need to qualify those generalizations with: "The energy efficiency and cost of ownership of a typical EV will still be far better than a typical ICE only vehicle if you live in the US" (and, ideally, are able to afford a Tesla where you get free/subsidized SuperChargers everywhere), otherwise it is totally meaningless.
I would love to replace my diesel with an EV but it just doesn't make any sense at this point - even though 90% of my driving is just a short commute to/from work and shopping where an EV would have been ideal.
*(and possibly wouldn't be able to rent it at all because many rentals still forbid driving to the former Eastern Bloc countries, EU or not EU ... But that's a different debate)
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Rest assured it can do 60..70 km per charge, pedal to the floor, more (closer to 100km) if you drive like a grandma. Driving on ~ flat roads, not uphill.
I think you are the first person I have heard to even own one of these. I have seen it at a local Renault dealership, but that's more an expensive go-cart than a car :) Do they also charge the battery rental fees for these things (like they do for the Zoe)?
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So you need to qualify those generalizations with: "The energy efficiency and cost of ownership of a typical EV will still be far better than a typical ICE only vehicle if you live in the US".
By cost of ownership I was referring to what you pay to run and maintain a vehicle - not purchase price. Unless someone's cost of electricity is outrageously expensive or they are getting gasonline or diesel for free, the lower cost of ownership in that sense is a universal attribute of EVs.
It's true that if a EVs purchase price is drastically more expensive than the equivalent ICE then over the lifetime, the lower fuel and maintenance price may not allow one to recoup the difference in purchase price.
But of course if the argument is that the only car worth owning is the one with the cheapest overall lifetime cost - then the only cars worth owning would be very inexpensive, used tin cans. Clearly there are other factors which go into people's automobile purchase decisions.
(and, ideally, are able to afford a Tesla where you get free/subsidized SuperChargers everywhere)
At this time, Tesla's are the luxury end of EVs. Most EV owners (PHEV and BEV) cannot afford a Tesla.
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Let's look at costs here in Western Canada (Vancouver)
EV $32k (after $5k grant)
ICE $26k
Here I'm comparing a VW eGolf vs a VW Golf (similarly equipped)
Cost of Operation:
EV: 18kWh/100km (real world experience, about 15kWh/100 before charging losses) @ C$0.085/kWh = C$1.53/100km
ICE: 8.5l/100km (NRC Combined) @ 1.469/l = $12.49/100km
Cost of Maintenance:
The EV will have an advantage, the typical service interval is 2yrs/30,000km. No oil changes every 10k
I'll make up that $6000 difference before 60,000km even without the maintenance savings. In reality it will be faster, because some charging is done at free charging sites, and not at home.
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So you need to qualify those generalizations with: "The energy efficiency and cost of ownership of a typical EV will still be far better than a typical ICE only vehicle if you live in the US".
By cost of ownership I was referring to what you pay to run and maintain a vehicle - not purchase price. Unless someone's cost of electricity is outrageously expensive or they are getting gasonline or diesel for free, the lower cost of ownership in that sense is a universal attribute of EVs.
I do understand your point but the running economy is only part of the equations. If you can't charge the EV then it won't help you much that you have a cheap electricity.
There is also part that is the utility value of the car - if I have to choose between a Twingo-sized electric Zoe that barely seats two adults or e.g. my Leon which is still considered a "compact" car (it would come to +- same price), then I am going to pick the Leon even if it costs more to run it over its lifetime*. The value is much better because I can actually transport people and things with it.
*(Mostly on maintenance. Although with the Zoe you have to pay about 100 euro/month for "battery rental" - a full tank of gas costs less than that even here where the gas is much more expensive than the US ...).
(and, ideally, are able to afford a Tesla where you get free/subsidized SuperChargers everywhere)
At this time, Tesla's are the luxury end of EVs. Most EV owners (PHEV and BEV) cannot afford a Tesla.
Yes, sure. However, why I was mentioning that is that Tesla is the only one who is both subsidizing the fast charging (either totally free for or they are now charging the new owners a steeply discounted price) and actually has a fast charger network built in the US (much less in Europe, though). That is going to skew things a lot. So if you can afford a Tesla, you have a reasonable chance of getting a good utility value out of your car. People who can't do that and have to buy cheaper vehicles don't have such advantage, so that will make the electric or even plug-in hybrid cars much less attractive for them. Especially as many hybrids (whether plug-in or not) are electric only in a very token fashion and after a few kilometers you need to run the gasoline engine anyway.
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Cost of Maintenance:
The EV will have an advantage, the typical service interval is 2yrs/30,000km. No oil changes every 10k
A modern ICE needs an oil change every 25k to 30k km so there is no real difference there when it comes to service intervals. What is more interesting are the costs after driving 100k km and 200k km. People seem to forget there is much more to an EV than a piece of copper wire wound around bits of metal that makes it go. I strongly doubt an EV will be cheaper to run because the overall complexity of the car hasn't been reduced. Think about the drive electronics and battery cooling/heating system for starters. Earlier I posted some links showing the maintenance for an EV was more expensive compared to a similar ICE based car.
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A modern ICE needs an oil change every 25k to 30k km so there is no real difference there when it comes to service intervals.
But an BEV will require no oil change and an PHEV driven mostly in EV mode may only require an oil change every 90k to 100k km (or less often).
An EV will require very rare brake service whereas a typical ICE brake service is a regular high cost.
An EV will not require any transmission or clutch service whereas a typical ICE service theses is very expensive.
Also an ICEs cooling system is much more prone to problems and need of reqular service than an ICEs.
If you actually owned an EV you might realize that there is no comparison in terms of service intervals or maintenence costs. EVs are hands down - much less expensive to maintain.
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And there are no 3rd party parts... so good luck if the inverter blows up, or if one cell of the 7 thousand 18650s dies out of warranty, or even if the dashboard "ipad" goes west.
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Rest assured it can do 60..70 km per charge, pedal to the floor, more (closer to 100km) if you drive like a grandma. Driving on ~ flat roads, not uphill.
Thanks, my longest trips would be max. 30 Km between recharges, so the range I'm not concerned about.
More interested in the economic side, as the Netherlands is one of the few country's where it is not possible to purchase the battery,
instead it most be leased at 65 euro per month (with maximum 10.000 Km per year).
So it is very close to the costs of a "normal" small car and I'm calculating if it will be cost efficient at all.
I don't drive in heavy traffic and it is as flat as a pancake here, is 80 Km per charge (6 KWh) reasonable?
So (80Km/6KWh)*0,85 (charging efficiency) = 11 Km per KWh?
Last but not least, what version do you have 45 or 80 Kmh?
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I've tracked my electricity use since 1978. Attached is my use since the current house.
Can you guess when I purchased a Chevy Spark.
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A modern ICE needs an oil change every 25k to 30k km so there is no real difference there when it comes to service intervals.
But an BEV will require no oil change and an PHEV driven mostly in EV mode may only require an oil change every 90k to 100k km (or less often).
An EV will require very rare brake service whereas a typical ICE brake service is a regular high cost.
An EV will not require any transmission or clutch service whereas a typical ICE service theses is very expensive.
Also an ICEs cooling system is much more prone to problems and need of reqular service than an ICEs.
If you actually owned an EV you might realize that there is no comparison in terms of service intervals or maintenence costs. EVs are hands down - much less expensive to maintain.
I'm starting to wonder if you ever had a good ICE based car and/or get screwed by the dealer you take your cars for service. For example brakes are extremely easy and cheap to service/replace. It shouldn't take more than half an hour to replace the pads. It shouldn't cost more than 60 to 70 euro.
Also I never had any of the problems you listed except on cars which where end-of-life (over 320k km). To give an example: the running costs of my cars has been between 13 and 17 euro cents per km. But then again I carefully select my cars for lowest TCO.
I think you should take off your pink glasses. An EV has a more complicated cooling system which is basically is an airconditioning. An aircondition in a car needs to be serviced about every 4 years due to inherent leakage of the refridgerant. An EV has wheel bearings, a transmission (fixed), drive axles with homokinetic joints, shock absorbers, etc, etc which all need repairs at some point. Due to the higher weight I'd suspect an EV will need more frequent change of tires as well. And not to forget the possible replacement of the battery pack at some point.
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Rest assured it can do 60..70 km per charge, pedal to the floor, more (closer to 100km) if you drive like a grandma. Driving on ~ flat roads, not uphill.
Thanks, my longest trips would be max. 30 Km between recharges, so the range I'm not concerned about.
More interested in the economic side, as the Netherlands is one of the few country's where it is not possible to purchase the battery,
instead it most be leased at 65 euro per month (with maximum 10.000 Km per year).
So it is very close to the costs of a "normal" small car and I'm calculating if it will be cost efficient at all.
Cost efficient? Maybe not, to buy a twizy you have to like it :-) and have to have a garage, and can't leave it alone anywhere in the street because it's got no doors, and no A/C so only can take it when the weather is alright, and...
I don't drive in heavy traffic and it is as flat as a pancake here, is 80 Km per charge (6 KWh) reasonable?
So (80Km/6KWh)*0,85 (charging efficiency) = 11 Km per KWh?
That's about right, if your right foot isn't too heavy.
Last but not least, what version do you have 45 or 80 Kmh?
The 80.
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Fanboys like to repeat ad nauseam, like broken records, that EVs are "less complicated" when in fact they are more complicated, and have more parts than an ICE. A Tesla about seven thousand parts more to begin with.
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I also looked at the Twizy but the lack of doors and needing to lease the battery made me dismiss it. In the NL the period with nice weather is about 5 months. Also the Twizy is too wide to manoeuvre through a traffic jam. It could be a good solution for specific trips if the situation on the road is suitable for such a small vehicle.
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I'm starting to wonder if you ever had a good ICE based car and/or get screwed by the dealer you take your cars for service.
You're just spewing nonsense now.
I've owned approximately 20 ICE vehicles over 40 years. I bought my first car - a used Datsun 510 at age 16. Until about 10 years ago, I did almost all the service myself - oil changes, brake jobs, transmission service. I have rebuilt ICE engines, changed several clutches. I never have rebuilt a transmission.
Even when I was doing my own service, the cost of maintenance of an ICE was not cheap.
I've owned a PHEV (Chevy Volt) for 4 years now. Total cost of maintenance has been $50 for one oil change (The second one, which I just had done. The first oil change was free). Brake pads are still at > 90%. Other than another oil change every 2 years or so, the only regular maintenance cost I anticipate in the next 5 -10 years is a set of new tires and some windshield wiper blades.
My experience is typical. Just look at the Chevy Volt forum or any EV forum. Most of whose members have long experience with ICE vehicles.
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I also looked at the Twizy but the lack of doors and needing to lease the battery made me dismiss it. In the NL the period with nice weather is about 5 months. Also the Twizy is too wide to manoeuvre through a traffic jam. It could be a good solution for specific trips if the situation on the road is suitable for such a small vehicle.
Doors are available as an option, windows are available as well (at least aftermarket).
I've driven one a couple of years ago and I like it, and beats riding a electric bicycle: more shelter, higher top speed, ability to carry a passenger, etc etc.
Yes I do have a beard and like to wear fleece lol.
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JFTR, the transmission of a Volt is orders of magnitude more complicated than that of a normal ICE.
https://gm-volt.com/2009/11/09/engineering-design-of-the-chevy-volts-two-electric-motors/
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JFTR, the transmission of a Volt is orders of magnitude more complicated than that of a normal ICE.
https://gm-volt.com/2009/11/09/engineering-design-of-the-chevy-volts-two-electric-motors/
I've seen no one claim that an EV is less complicated.
More complicated does not necessarily mean less reliable or more expensive to maintain.
Early ICE vehicles were very simple and very expensive to maintain.
Everyone on this forum should understand that a well designed and built modern electronic device is much more reliable and easier to maintain than earlier generation less complicated electronics or, god forbid, mechanical devices.
There are Chevy Volts that have been on the road for 8 or 9 years now - some with 200k miles on them. They have proven to be extremely reliable vehicles.
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Seriously, I don't know what you drove (or whether the American cars are so crappy!) but e.g. my Leon is 9 years old and still on the same brakes (pads and discs) as when I got it in 2012. Granted, I do maybe 15k kilometers a year only. But even then the replacement would be around 300 euro, work included.
What sort of service does your transmission need? Older cars needed oil change every few years, more modern ones don't need that or the intervals are fairly long (60k km and more). That's for stick shift cars or something like the VW DSG (dual clutch) transmissions, though. Automatics are possibly more demanding - didn't own one, so no idea how much that costs.
Clutch? Again, how often do you change that for it to even be a factor? Clutch should last at least 150k kilometers, possibly more if you don't drive like an idiot. Certainly didn't need to change it so far, even though the car has 130k on the odo.
Most of my maintenance costs are annual oil change (+ filters), cleaning the AC, replacing the brake and cooling fluid every two years and occasional small fix like wheel geometry adjustment or AC refill. These things cost about 300-400 euro/year at the dealership and most of them will need to be done regardless of whether you have electric or regular car. Then small stuff like wiper blades, light bulbs, filling up the windshield washer liquid, new battery two years ago, etc.
Out of the larger repairs I had to replace the timing belt & accessories (at 120k km) which was about 800 euro. And then later shocks will need to be changed, which is about the same amount. But that is something you do maybe twice or three times tops during the life of the car.
Maybe I am very lucky that I didn't have to do expensive repairs with this car yet but then I had a Clio before it was pretty much the same story - despite paying premium for having it serviced at the Renault dealership (I had it across the road from where I live).
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There are Chevy Volts that have been on the road for 8 or 9 years now - some with 200k miles on them. They have proven to be extremely reliable vehicles.
This is amusingly ridiculous. You can go on any used car website and find many ICE cars with 200k (or more) miles on them which still drive well and will do so for many miles/kilometer more. I can find nearly 2500 on a used car website targeted at the NL. The days a car was ready for demolition after 100k km are long gone (decades ago).
@Janoc: your 150k km is a bit low. On my previous two cars the clutch failed at 300k km and 340k km. On my current car it is still good at 300k km.
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@Janoc: your 150k km is a bit low. On my previous two cars the clutch failed at 300k km and 340k km. On my current car it is still good at 300k km.
I believe that, I was quoting the manufacturer's ratings which tend to be very conservative. I am sure the real world values are more than that. The clutch in my car is also going strong still.
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There are Chevy Volts that have been on the road for 8 or 9 years now - some with 200k miles on them. They have proven to be extremely reliable vehicles.
This is amusingly ridiculous. You can go on any used car website and find ICE cars with 200k (or more) miles on them which still drive well and will do so for many miles/kilometer more. The days a car was ready for demolition after 100k km are long gone (decades ago).
You are being transparently disingenuous.
I never claimed that modern ICE cars are not also reliable. I was responding to the insinuation by George and your earlier post that because EVs are complicated that that makes them somehow less reliable or more subject to maintenance costs - both of which are demonstrably false.
You seem to have a pattern of going into multiple threads and making multiple posts spewing nonsense about equipment that you don't own and therefore don't like - EVs, Apple products, any Oscilloscope that s not a GW Instek or MicSig, etc, etc. What's up with that? ::)
Since you have no experience with an EV, why are you posting in this thread?
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Let's try again to put this into the EV fanboys' heads: to the kWh/km figures you see on the dashboard, you've got to add the charger+battery round trip losses,"
What charger roundtrip?. You charge AT HOME. Zero roundtrip loss! Unless you have a gasoline pump at home : you can't do that in an ICE ...
The public chargers are there for your convenience and to enable long trips, just like for regular fuel pumps. They are not for daily usage. That is a big misconception.
A charger for an EV is equivalent to a fuel pump for an ICE.
You can't fill up an ICE at home. (unless you own a fuel pump)
You CAN fill up an EV at home. (simply plug in overnight)
You CAN fill up an EV at work. (many companies install chargers for their employees)
You CAN fill up an EV at many shopping malls , public parkings (many shopping malls and public parkings install chargers for EV's)
It's a matter of plugging the thing in when you come home.
On a standard 240 volt outlet at 30 ampere , assuming i plug the thing in at 8PM , i get 10 hours of charge by 6AM... That's 60 Kilowatts... More than half my battery pack. Not a problem. If i get an 80 Amp charger i can blast the battery full (100Kw) in less than 6 hours.
Again : the superchargers are there to let you drive long distance. I went to Lake Tahoe last weekend. Left home with a full battery , Stopped in Manteca after a 2 hour drive, topped it off while going pipi and grabbing an icecream. Drove all the way To Stateline, Nevada. Pulled in to Hard Rock casino, plugged in car, went for dinner and my pack was completely full. Drove around Tahoe , went to Reno , topped off at the Gigafactory back to Tahoe. On the way back home we left Tahoe with 170 miles of range. We hit Sacramento with 176 miles of range ! I ended up with more range because Tahoe is at an altitude of 6000ft. Most of the trajectory was downhill so consumption was zilch. Actually regeneration pushed the battery up to over 210 miles of range at one point. In sacramento we did another bathroom stop and grabbed a sandwich from Subway. By the time we were back at the car (we hadn't eaten sandwich yet, just picked up) the counter was at 265 miles. We drove another 3 hours to get home and had 70 miles remaining ...
A couple of weeks ago we spent time in Clear Lake. there is imply plugged in to a regular 110 volts 10 ampere outlet. That gives me roughly 4 miles per hour of charge. Whenever we were at the house i plugged in. Overnight that gave me easily 50+ miles. ( arrive at 7pm , leave next day around 9AM : which is 14 hours of charging). More than enough to compensate the driving around the area.
Large packs is the key.
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Cost of Maintenance:
The EV will have an advantage, the typical service interval is 2yrs/30,000km. No oil changes every 10k
A modern ICE needs an oil change every 25k to 30k km so there is no real difference there when it comes to service intervals. What is more interesting are the costs after driving 100k km and 200k km. People seem to forget there is much more to an EV than a piece of copper wire wound around bits of metal that makes it go. I strongly doubt an EV will be cheaper to run because the overall complexity of the car hasn't been reduced. Think about the drive electronics and battery cooling/heating system for starters. Earlier I posted some links showing the maintenance for an EV was more expensive compared to a similar ICE based car.
let's not do this again, where I show you a real world value, and you pick the outlying (non-warranty approved in this case) edge case of oil every 25,000km.
Compare Apples to Apples, warranty approved maintenance schedules; per VW Service per https://owners.vwmodels.ca/maintenance/timeline/
All vehicles require 'inspections', but these are the required replacement items
VW Golf service
15k oil, filter & plug
30k oil, filter & plug, pollen filter
45k oil, filter & plug
60k oil, filter & plug, pollen filter, spark plugs
75k oil, filter & plug
90k oil, filter & plug, oil plug gasket, pollen filter, air filter
105k oil, filter & plug
120k oil, filter & plug, pollen filter, spark plugs
135k oil, filter & plug
150k oil, filter & plug, pollen filter
165k oil, filter & plug
180k oil, filter & plug, pollen filter, air filter, spark plugs
VW eGolf service
15k none
30k pollen filter
45k none
60k pollen filter
75k none
90k pollen filter
105k none
120k pollen filter
135k none
150k pollen filter
165k none
180k pollen filter
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... I bought my first car - a used Datsun 510 at age 16. Until about 10 years ago, I did almost all the service myself - oil changes, brake jobs, transmission service. I have rebuilt ICE engines, changed several clutches. I never have rebuilt a transmission.
A fine choice. My 1st car was a 510 as well. The L engines were completely bulletproof, sadly the body was biodegradable. Did almost all my service in the driveway as well.
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... I bought my first car - a used Datsun 510 at age 16. Until about 10 years ago, I did almost all the service myself - oil changes, brake jobs, transmission service. I have rebuilt ICE engines, changed several clutches. I never have rebuilt a transmission.
A fine choice. My 1st car was a 510 as well. The L engines were completely bulletproof, sadly the body was biodegradable. Did almost all my service in the driveway as well.
I loved that car. It was a sleeper performance car the time - popular with street racers. I did some performance mods that unfortunately meant it would not pass the California smog inspection at the time. Had to buy the local alcoholic smog inspector a bottle of Seagrams 7 to get him to pass it. True story.
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you can drive around Australia in an EV for $150 in electricity.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/sep/12/how-much-does-it-cost-to-power-an-electric-car-around-australia-150?CMP=soc_567 (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/sep/12/how-much-does-it-cost-to-power-an-electric-car-around-australia-150?CMP=soc_567)
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Cost of Maintenance:
The EV will have an advantage, the typical service interval is 2yrs/30,000km. No oil changes every 10k
A modern ICE needs an oil change every 25k to 30k km so there is no real difference there when it comes to service intervals. What is more interesting are the costs after driving 100k km and 200k km. People seem to forget there is much more to an EV than a piece of copper wire wound around bits of metal that makes it go. I strongly doubt an EV will be cheaper to run because the overall complexity of the car hasn't been reduced. Think about the drive electronics and battery cooling/heating system for starters. Earlier I posted some links showing the maintenance for an EV was more expensive compared to a similar ICE based car.
let's not do this again, where I show you a real world value, and you pick the outlying (non-warranty approved in this case) edge case of oil every 25,000km.
The only thing you are showing is that an ICE VW Golf is expensive to maintain. My own Ford Focus from 2006 needs an oil change every 20k km according to the manual. And there are cars out there with even longer oil change intervals. Saying that longer intervals are non-warranty approved is just nonsense. If it says 20k km in the manual from the manufacturer then it is warranty approved.
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My own Ford Focus from 2006 needs an oil change every 20k km according to the manual.
Really? Why does Ford say oil changes should be every 5000 mi (8000 km) for pre 2008 cars and every 7500 mi (12000 km) for newer cars? (https://owner.ford.com/how-tos/vehicle-features/engine/know-when-to-change-your-engine-oil.html)
In any case you’re flogging a dead horse again with your apples to oranges comparison.
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Either way the endless EV-bashing mental gymnastics are a bit tiresome to say the least. IMHO someone who has never owned or even driven one really has nothing to stand on, it's just a baseless religious argument polluting an otherwise constructive thread.
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Rental cars are cheap in the US. $30-40 a day, $200-300 for a week with unlimited miles. Auto insurance alone in most parts of the US will cost you $1000 a year per vehicle for liability coverage alone.
My car insurance costs way less but due to not claiming anything for many years got me a hefty discount.
Those low rental prices usually are for very small cars. If you want a decent car the price nearly doubles and then there is the extra insurance. But as I wrote before I already tried to 'optimise' cars. My previous car was a sedan. My thinking was: I don't need a station wagon every day and I'll sort things out when I need to transport something large. Well that turned out to be a really bad idea. Fortunately my wife had a relatively large hatch-back so I could use that to transport larger items but it still didn't do the job well. I recall buying a couple of windows but those where too large for the lid to close so I had to drive around to find a shopping mall first to but a piece of rope to tie it shut. Same for a dish-washer and many other items. Buying a car which can't do the 1% you need every now and then just sucks. Nowadays I'm back to the station wagon. I hope this underlines my point when I'm saying that buying a car which can only do 99% (or less) of the use cases is going to be a nuisance because it doesn't deliver when you need it the most.
You don't need a cube van every day but if you have to move from one place to another you can always rent one from U-Haul. Pretty much the same thing you're talking about. If you can't fit the dish washer in the car then maybe you need to pay a few bucks and have it delivered rather than renting a car for the purpose.
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I rent a trailer from UHaul probably 1.5 times per year on average. I'm surely not going to pick my daily driver sized for the largest thing I'll ever move and 99.5% of the time be driving around in something that comically large, all to avoid a $25 charge every 8 months or so...
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My own Ford Focus from 2006 needs an oil change every 20k km according to the manual.
Really? Why does Ford say oil changes should be every 5000 mi (8000 km) for pre 2008 cars and every 7500 mi (12000 km) for newer cars? (https://owner.ford.com/how-tos/vehicle-features/engine/know-when-to-change-your-engine-oil.html)
In any case you’re flogging a dead horse again with your apples to oranges comparison.
He's completely obsessed with Ford, so let's feed him new and 2006 Ford data.
Yeah, here in Canada the documentation says 12,000-16,000km for new cars under 'normal' conditions, it's controlled by how much load the car feels it's been under.
https://www.ford.ca/resources/ford/general/pdf/service/414919_ServiceBrochure_8.5x11_EN.pdf (https://www.ford.ca/resources/ford/general/pdf/service/414919_ServiceBrochure_8.5x11_EN.pdf)
As for older cars, I couldn't find the Canadian reference, but the US 2006 schedule is every 5000mi (8000km)
http://www.fordservicecontent.com/Ford_Content/catalog/owner_guides/06mermg3e.pdf (http://www.fordservicecontent.com/Ford_Content/catalog/owner_guides/06mermg3e.pdf)
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My own Ford Focus from 2006 needs an oil change every 20k km according to the manual.
Really? Why does Ford say oil changes should be every 5000 mi (8000 km) for pre 2008 cars and every 7500 mi (12000 km) for newer cars? (https://owner.ford.com/how-tos/vehicle-features/engine/know-when-to-change-your-engine-oil.html)
In any case you’re flogging a dead horse again with your apples to oranges comparison.
He's completely obsessed with Ford, so let's feed him new and 2006 Ford data.
Yeah, here in Canada the documentation says 12,000-16,000km for new cars under 'normal' conditions, it's controlled by how much load the car feels it's been under.
https://www.ford.ca/resources/ford/general/pdf/service/414919_ServiceBrochure_8.5x11_EN.pdf (https://www.ford.ca/resources/ford/general/pdf/service/414919_ServiceBrochure_8.5x11_EN.pdf)
Perhaps the Fords over there are build to different quality standards needing more maintenance than the European versions. BTW I'm not obsessed with Ford. Actually I was brought up to dislike Ford like southern red-necks dislike colored people and Hillary Clinton. I'm just going for the car with the lowest TCO. Previous cars where from Toyota, Mitsubishi and Mazda.
BTW the same seems to be true for your beloved VW. According to this website (in Dutch) most ICE models (before AND after 2014) need servicing every 30k km.
https://www.volkswagen.nl/service/onderhoud/volkswagen-onderhoudsbeurt (https://www.volkswagen.nl/service/onderhoud/volkswagen-onderhoudsbeurt)
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The 20k and 30k service intervals are designed to get the car out of warranty with lowest cost to the manufacturer, as they often come with a motorplan that covers all services for a fixed period or a fixed mileage. However this means the engfine has by then built up signifigant sludge and this causes problems further down the line after the motorplan is up with excessive engine wear and bearing failure. Plenty of VW and Ford engines fail after warranty is expired with that service interval, simply because the sludge build up has caused excessive wear on the engine. The 2.0/2.2 TDI engine is very well known for grenading the oil pump and also wearing the valve train from sludge build up, as it has that long service interval.
Almost as if the manufacturers saying you have to buy a new car every 5 years. Worst id the trio of Renault/Citroen/Peugoet with the cars they build having a designed in 7 year lifetime of major components. Expensive to replace engine and gearbox on a 7 year old car just out of warranty when the bearings, gears, sliding surfaces are all worn past repair. Change the oil a lot more regular and they will last.
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Plenty of VW and Ford engines fail after warranty is expired with that service interval, simply because the sludge build up has caused excessive wear on the engine. The 2.0/2.2 TDI engine is very well known for grenading the oil pump and also wearing the valve train from sludge build up, as it has that long service interval.
If you look across all the cars then you'll see that many brands have problems with the engines. Most notably the engines made by PSA (French). But also Toyota and VW have had series of engines which are subject to excessive wear. In most cases these problems are fixed outside the warranty as well as part of a recall. Either way: do your homework before buying a used car. I also noticed that not every garage knows which oil to put in a particular car so you need to keep an eye on that as well.
edit: my point is in the end car manufacturers are not going to specify maintenance intervals which shorten the useful life of a car because that will reduce the resale value for the first owner. A shorter useful life makes the car more expensive instead of cheaper.
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Actually I was brought up to dislike Ford like southern red-necks dislike colored people and Hillary Clinton.
:wtf:
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BMW i3, spent more time in the shop than out of the shop. Literally in and out of the shop two dozen times over a two year period. I drove loaner BMWs from the dealership more than I drove that electric turd. They even replaced the battery. When the lease ended and that lemon went back to their hands I felt a great sense of relief.
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I wonder if that's typical? What sort of problems did it have? The i3 is one of the few mainstream EVs I have never known anyone who owned one.
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Not sure if they were typical or not. I might have just been handed a lemon. Most of the issues related to the two-cylinder engine as mine was the range extended variant.
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Not sure if they were typical or not. I might have just been handed a lemon. Most of the issues related to the two-cylinder engine as mine was the range extended variant.
Interesting. Was it the engine itself, or the way it integrates with the car? I thought they used a proven engine from other applications.
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The engine oxygen sensors, emissions sensors, fuel filler door sensor, this sensor, that sensor, ... were repeated points of failure
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If I were going to get an EV, I'd get a pure EV. One of the big attractions is not having to deal with any of that ICE related stuff. I don't want to drag around two separate powerplants and all the associated control gear and energy supply for both.
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I say when talking anout my S, even before seeing it, they don't want a car with gadgets.
I understood when choosing my car, it would have gadgets.
However, buying any ICE car, you still have gadgets, and soon auto crash sensing, dog poop on seat in rear sensor etc.
You are still dragging around a block of engine to crash into your lap, exhaust, transmission, fluid changes, stinky garage when leaving,
Dealer? We ordered ours, factpry to us delivered on a Tesla flatbed. (the guy wished they would get rid of the ICE delivery vehicle.
And like planned appleescence, you can be sure your dealer will either milk you on this or say no longer supported, your engine controller is "vintage". While trying you to upsell o another car on their lot.
Our car keeps getting better without trading in.
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If I were going to get an EV, I'd get a pure EV. One of the big attractions is not having to deal with any of that ICE related stuff. I don't want to drag around two separate powerplants and all the associated control gear and energy supply for both.
Great point; the "REx" in the BMW is a pathetic kludge that provided only 70 (!!!) miles of extra range with a gas tank that took only about 1.5 gallons to fill up. I did a 900 mile (each way) road trip with that car. It was awful. If I had access to Tesla-style fast charging and 300 miles real range, that would have been a pleasure instead of a nightmare.
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I'd love an electric car, I just wish they were more standard and not a niche product. I can't justify paying the cost of a new car (any car) so I only buy used and since they are so niche the odds of finding a used one is super slim.
My biggest worry as far as viability would be -40 days but I'm thinking it would be fine. My work is about 5km from my house so a car that has a 100km advertised range would be more than good enough for me. ex: even if I got a used where the battery is at like half capacity I'd be ok with that.
If I had a big heated garage to work in I would consider starting a project car where I do an EV conversion of a gas car. Would be a pretty neat project.
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No need to buy a new car, most of the people I know who have them bought used. My dad and a friend of mine each bought a Nissan Leaf when a big lot of them came off lease a few years ago, both have been trouble free. Another friend bought a Chevy Bolt a couple years ago, he also has been raving about it non stop, I don't recall what he paid for the Bolt but the Leafs were under $10k. I would never personally buy a brand new car either, I'll gladly let someone else take that big depreciation hit.
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I'd love an electric car, I just wish they were more standard and not a niche product. I can't justify paying the cost of a new car (any car) so I only buy used and since they are so niche the odds of finding a used one is super slim.
My biggest worry as far as viability would be -40 days but I'm thinking it would be fine. My work is about 5km from my house so a car that has a 100km advertised range would be more than good enough for me. ex: even if I got a used where the battery is at like half capacity I'd be ok with that.
If I had a big heated garage to work in I would consider starting a project car where I do an EV conversion of a gas car. Would be a pretty neat project.
4 years used is likely to have a 80-90% battery on a LEAF, probably on the higher end of that. In -40° weather, the range will be even worse, but multiple 5km round trips should still be easily, easily doable. Battery heating is the issue. There is an on-board heater that runs (IIRC) when the car is charged above 30% and the battery is below -20°C (-4°F) until the battery is above -10°C (14°F). This heater obviously takes power from the traction pack and cuts into your range (unless you can keep the car plugged in, in which case the heater usage is replenished). Even wit the heating, the range is reduced as cold batteries store less energy than warm batteries. Again, your commute is almost ideal for this.
Buying them used is no problem; the market is thick with them.
On doing a conversion, that was my plan 8+ years ago. Now, the production cars are readily available and have a production car level of fit and finish, so if you want to own an electric, just buy one. If you want to build one, build one, but if the owning and driving is the point, just buy one... :)
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I hardly even see any NEW ones so I can't see how there would be a lot on the used market, unless I'd want to start shopping down south. Though I guess that would be an option once I'm in the market for another car I could just look at down south classifieds instead of local. Can always fly down and then drive it back.
As for battery heater, does it run even when car is just parked? I would have figured it would only run when you first go to start the car. Basically use the battery at reduced capacity for a bit, to warm itself up, then the capacity would increase a bit. I guess there would be a sweet spot there as to how much capacity you really want to use to warm it up so that it makes up for capacity loss if it's cold.
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It runs while parked (and under those conditions). I think they all have battery heaters as you can’t really only preheat the battery while running the car and no one wants to turn the car on an hour ahead of time.
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Not all cars implement active thermal management, a notable one is the Nissan Leaf. They do offer a cold weather package with a heater, but no liquid thermal management system.
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They come in waves as the leases run out, those are typically several years long and then there will be a pile of them for sale. Another wave should be coming up within the next couple of years. They may not be nearly as common in some areas as others but it's not that big of a deal to buy cars from other regions, there are even services out there to locate and transport them. I see new ones all over the place out here, EVs have proven very popular with the tech industry crowd.
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They come in waves as the leases run out, those are typically several years long and then there will be a pile of them for sale. Another wave should be coming up within the next couple of years. They may not be nearly as common in some areas as others but it's not that big of a deal to buy cars from other regions, there are even services out there to locate and transport them. I see new ones all over the place out here, EVs have proven very popular with the tech industry crowd.
Why would leases run out in waves? Surely a steady stream of leases expire month by month.
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I don't know, it's just what I've observed, maybe it's the first production run, or maybe people update to the latest model, or maybe people buy cars more certain times of the year. I wouldn't really know, I've always bought old cars from private sellers.
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My wife and I private lease a Kia Niro PHEV in Umeå Sweden. It does not have battery heating as far as I know, but the fully EV one (just released) does.
Some good points:
1. Battery charge in very cold weather (-20oC so far) is AOK, charges fine and range seems to be the same
2. 55km is stated electric only range, our commute is 54km and when leaving the car states it has between 54 and 57km each day
3. Charging is adjustable - we have awful electricity supply at home, so we charge at 4-5A for 7-8 hours to recharge each night
4. This can be adjusted up to 16A on the home charger they give you (standard swedish 2 pin plug)
5. The car can also be set to charge at a different rate on commercial chargers (again from 4-5A up to 16A) - so we never have to adjust the car
Some less good points:
1. The heating is provided by a small petrol engine that helps the car along when accelerating hard or low on power
2. This is clearly not set up well for swedish winters - as the car will sit in HEV (hybrid or petrol mode) for ages (40 mins ish) and switch to El only for 2-4 mins and back to HEV for 10-15... rinse and repeat
Even though the car has plenty of heat in the radiator. You cant stop this from happening unless you turn off the heating in the car (within 1 minute you have frost on the windscreen inside).... so - not great
3. European drivers do not have access to the remote app for the car like yanks do - so there is no preheat in the cabin etc... We can get a fan heater installed, but this is less than optimal.
But - on spring, summer and autumn days, we reduce our commute costs by over 90%. Winter days, warmer than -12oC, the same, colder, it costs us about 50% what our A4 B6 1.8T avant did. So - it will be ok for the 3 years, but we are going fully BEV electric once the lease is complete.
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My (wife's) model S makes some noises when parked. On really hot or cold days when randomly walked by. The hvac system keeps the battery in range. It is usually plugged in all the time at home, but when lrft unplugged, probably a couple miles/day is sapped out.
The battery thermal management is what gives long life. The Nissan Leaf had poor thermal management and southern hot climate owners were getting battery problems.
On the "Now You Know" podcast the son said he had lost 10% battery range on his I think 2 year old Leaf. I expect a couple or 3 thousand miles on my S battery. No noticeable change in the almodt 2 years now.
I will complain about things, not a sheep.
Ask me anything. Wish I didn't have to keep hands on wheel due to a couple fools early on.
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The battery thermal management is what gives long life. The Nissan Leaf had poor thermal management and southern hot climate owners were getting battery problems.
On the "Now You Know" podcast the son said he had lost 10% battery range on his I think 2 year old Leaf. I expect a couple or 3 thousand miles on my S battery. No noticeable change in the almodt 2 years now.
LEAF owner here. The lack of active thermal management on the LEAF is a poor decision I think. I've lost about 7% over 4 years, which isn't too bad. (Daily driven 5 days a week, but only about 16K total miles.)
I expect a couple or 3 thousand miles on my S battery. No noticeable change in the almodt 2 years now.
I think you missed a factor of 1000 there. If you only got 3 thousand miles on the battery, I bet you'd be super-pissed... ;) ;D
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I expect a couple or 3 thousand miles on my S battery. No noticeable change in the almodt 2 years now.
I think you missed a factor of 1000 there. If you only got 3 thousand miles on the battery, I bet you'd be super-pissed... ;) ;D
Actually the OP missed by a factor of 100, and you missed by a factor of 10. I'm pretty sure he meant 300,000
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:palm:
Yup. Good catch!
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My wife and I private lease a Kia Niro PHEV in Umeå Sweden. It does not have battery heating as far as I know, but the fully EV one (just released) does.
Thanks for the insights, it's an interesting read, and addresses some interesting points.
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Yeah, I missed puttin in a "k" there. expecting a couple hundred k miles.
If wife doesn't run it dry all the time. Only once she didn't supercharge on a long trip for 10 minutes because "I always thought gas guages had a reserve below the empty reading". Made it home on electron fumes.
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It's been about a year since I got my BEV; so I thought I'd pass along some numbers
distance travelled: 11,700km
Power used:
home (openEVSE metered): 1,095
work+other (Chargepoint): 650
others (guess): 150
TOTAL: 1895kWh
Consumption (and this would include battery charging losses): 16.2kWh/100km
or in the local rates, about C$1.62/100km
Considering the gasoline version of the same car uses 7l/100km, and gasoline is about $1.68/l here, that means I'm doing slightly better than 7:1 in costs vs the gasoline version; and that's not including the fact that I don't pay for about 40% of all my charging (work + public chargers).
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BUT you show no calculations that account for the hugely different capital costs! and BTW whats your battery life compared to an IC engine :-\
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What's yearly mainenance like?
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They come in waves as the leases run out, those are typically several years long and then there will be a pile of them for sale. Another wave should be coming up within the next couple of years. They may not be nearly as common in some areas as others but it's not that big of a deal to buy cars from other regions, there are even services out there to locate and transport them. I see new ones all over the place out here, EVs have proven very popular with the tech industry crowd.
Why would leases run out in waves? Surely a steady stream of leases expire month by month.
Financial year end. Maybe tax reasons. just a couple of guesses.
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you can drive around Australia in an EV for $150 in electricity.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/sep/12/how-much-does-it-cost-to-power-an-electric-car-around-australia-150?CMP=soc_567 (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/sep/12/how-much-does-it-cost-to-power-an-electric-car-around-australia-150?CMP=soc_567)
Fast chargers would be few and far between on the Nullabor. https://goo.gl/maps/TMcMVrVqbLwLckZK7 (https://goo.gl/maps/TMcMVrVqbLwLckZK7)
Note the lack of power poles. Those crosses by the road are what remains of those who died waiting for their cars to charge.
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BUT you show no calculations that account for the hugely different capital costs! and BTW whats your battery life compared to an IC engine :-\
Let's compare VW vs VW
BEV eGolf is C$36,700 -- less $10k in incentives (5k when I bought);
similarly equipped ICE Golf is about C$26,000
Which "Hugely different capital cost" were you talking about ? The $700 ?
Almost no maintenance costs (no oil changes). I did have a flat tire once, but that's hardly a cost associated only with an EV
I don't expect battery life to be significantly different than engine/transmission life of an ICE car. As with the Prius, by the time it does start being an issue, there will be a lot of 3rd party options for refresh.
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@boffin
Thanks for your first hand information. Unfortunately, many contributors to this thread haven't read the title.
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BUT you show no calculations that account for the hugely different capital costs! and BTW whats your battery life compared to an IC engine :-\
Let's compare VW vs VW
BEV eGolf is C$36,700 -- less $10k in incentives (5k when I bought);
similarly equipped ICE Golf is about C$26,000
Which "Hugely different capital cost" were you talking about ? The $700 ?
Almost no maintenance costs (no oil changes). I did have a flat tire once, but that's hardly a cost associated only with an EV
I don't expect battery life to be significantly different than engine/transmission life of an ICE car. As with the Prius, by the time it does start being an issue, there will be a lot of 3rd party options for refresh.
Still comparing apples with oranges. Those $5k you got and the free charging is paid by other people. In the end there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. And what happens in 10 years from now when EVs turned out to be a failed experiment and the public charging infrastructure gets decomissioned (because nobody wants to pay more for public charging compared to buying gas)? You'd be stuck with a dud you can only charge at home. At that time you realise you got a lot of freebies for taking a risk with your hard earned money.
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BEV eGolf is C$36,700 -- less $10k in incentives (5k when I bought);
similarly equipped ICE Golf is about C$26,000
Which "Hugely different capital cost" were you talking about ? The $700 ?
Is my guess correct that you have to report the incentive amount to the tax man who will then yank a good $1000 out of it?
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Still comparing apples with oranges. Those $5k you got and the free charging is paid by other people. In the end there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. And what happens in 10 years from now when EVs turned out to be a failed experiment and the public charging infrastructure gets decomissioned (because nobody wants to pay more for public charging compared to buying gas)? You'd be stuck with a dud you can only charge at home. At that time you realise you got a lot of freebies for taking a risk with your hard earned money.
If that happens, I'll have driven a $21K (after incentives) LEAF for 14 years total and will have likely saved $5000 in energy costs and about the same in service costs plus 21 trips to the dealer over a comparable $21K ICE car. If it turns into a pumpkin 10 years from now, I'm still OK.
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Still comparing apples with oranges. Those $5k you got and the free charging is paid by other people. In the end there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. And what happens in 10 years from now when EVs turned out to be a failed experiment and the public charging infrastructure gets decomissioned (because nobody wants to pay more for public charging compared to buying gas)? You'd be stuck with a dud you can only charge at home. At that time you realise you got a lot of freebies for taking a risk with your hard earned money.
1) My costing assumed I did all my charging at home (apparently you didn't bother reading my message)
2) Public (fee) charging infrastructure is rapidly expanding. I'm more than happy to pay for it at reasonable rates; and it's more and more common. Even the large gasoline companies are getting into the business
3) the 5k is sort of paid by other people. However, the province and federal government are costing it in that an electric car has a lower impact on the city (noise, pollution etc) to create a better environment for everyone. It's not really dissimilar to the city paying to build a public park. Also the environmental impact of refineries and oil transport is much higher than the impact of electric transmission lines; especially considering that most home EV charging is done at off-peak times. The grants will disappear, but by then the battery costs will have dropped
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BEV eGolf is C$36,700 -- less $10k in incentives (5k when I bought);
similarly equipped ICE Golf is about C$26,000
Which "Hugely different capital cost" were you talking about ? The $700 ?
Is my guess correct that you have to report the incentive amount to the tax man who will then yank a good $1000 out of it?
Nope. Right off the cost of the vehicle; no tax implication.
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been away from forum... yes expect that from battery possibly, and the car for several 100k miles. dead by then anyways. Ive kept vehicles running for 20 and 25 years.
I charge at 13 amps. 240 volts for 2 years. have 50 amp parts ready when we upgrade other stuff in house.
Worst diy stuff was exhaust, sensors, and rust here in salt Maine and NH seacoast that did them in.
not expecting the nightmare of diagnosing and replacing IACV on the Maxima stuff ever again.
We retired, and wife wanted a new non snob luxury ish car. she loved her 2001 Maxima, handed down to me.
By sheer chance, her family visits and takes kids to some venue in Boston. noticed a Tesla showroom She sits in the leather (non-vegetarian) seats and felt like Maxima.
Appointed a test drive and now have one. It was not my idea!
Finally a car I don't have to work on, aluminum body, non corroding components. Only rust-able wear stuff like struts brakes are all premium, but replaceable like any Ferrari, Maserati. And I have the service book with all parts and numbers.
Someone broke the right passenger side heated and lcd dimming mirror.
Cost 125.00 and got in a couple days. Last time mirror on her Altima cost 700.00
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Which model jh ?
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Model s facelift. May 2017 Dropped off at house. I sorta liked the nosecone original.
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https://reneweconomy.com.au/tesla-ev-charged-with-diesel-generator-still-cleaner-than-conventional-car-61942/
Interesting how the EV charged from a diesel generator used less fuel than a very efficient diesel car. Apparently, there's more loss of efficiency from running an engine out of its optimum efficiency range than is lost in charging an EV.
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https://reneweconomy.com.au/tesla-ev-charged-with-diesel-generator-still-cleaner-than-conventional-car-61942/
Interesting how the EV charged from a diesel generator used less fuel than a very efficient diesel car. Apparently, there's more loss of efficiency from running an engine out of its optimum efficiency range than is lost in charging an EV.
This shouldn't be too surprising. Look how much better the fuel consumption of a decent hybrid can be, due to regeneration, and operating the engine at more efficient points in its operating envelope..
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In the article reported the engineer (retired) that constructed the device
"He stresses that the point is not to offer a diesel-powered EV charger as the final solution, but as a reliable stop gap until installation of batteries and renewable-powered EV chargers become financially viable."
Which given the sign "Nullabor" on it suggests he is thinking of the longest loneliest most isolated from charging infrastructure road in Australia.
If it is true that almost all car journeys in Australia are easily within the range of an electric vehicle then any stop-gap solution to the difficulty of meeting long journey charging is welcome.
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If I did the unit conversions right, the Tesla charged from the diesel generator got about 55 MPG, about on par with a new Prius. Even I'm surprised a cobbled together setup can perform as efficiently as one of the most efficient hybrids in existence.
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If I did the unit conversions right, the Tesla charged from the diesel generator got about 55 MPG, about on par with a new Prius. Even I'm surprised a cobbled together setup can perform as efficiently as one of the most efficient hybrids in existence.
Not sure a 30kVA diesel generator is anything "cobbled together", they are huge trailer units designed for long term and low cost operation.
The comparison has many issues expanded on in their comments, but also the generator is not bound to emissions limits. The emissions limits have strong justification from the human health impacts in populated areas, but meeting them has come at the cost of fuel economy. Many, many, engineering tradeoffs involved.
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If I did the unit conversions right, the Tesla charged from the diesel generator got about 55 MPG, about on par with a new Prius. Even I'm surprised a cobbled together setup can perform as efficiently as one of the most efficient hybrids in existence.
Not sure a 30kVA diesel generator is anything "cobbled together", they are huge trailer units designed for long term and low cost operation.
The comparison has many issues expanded on in their comments, but also the generator is not bound to emissions limits. The emissions limits have strong justification from the human health impacts in populated areas, but meeting them has come at the cost of fuel economy. Many, many, engineering tradeoffs involved.
And you have to derate a generator for EV charging application due to high harmonic losses. In Formula E racing they double it, and add resistive loadbanks to stabilize the power output with a base load.
Charging EV's with an generator is not always plug&play.
And no, you don't get adblue in rental generators yet.
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If I did the unit conversions right, the Tesla charged from the diesel generator got about 55 MPG, about on par with a new Prius. Even I'm surprised a cobbled together setup can perform as efficiently as one of the most efficient hybrids in existence.
The Prius is gasoline powered. A diesel hybrid should be 20% to 30% more efficient per litre of fuel.
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Model 3 SR+ for me.
5000km in 6 weeks, charging mostly on a schucko at home 230V/13A, occasionally charging for free on supermarket parkings, on long trips with blazingly fast 105kW at the supercharger(750 km/h). And it lifts off like a rocket, even if there's only a single motor (RWD). Drooling Tesla smile ;D every single morning at arival at the workplace ;D
And the best thing is : after just a few years it will beat hands down even a VW golf in TCO.
The TM3 is simply the best car available today. By far.
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@f4eru: yes you have to justify spending your money so the TM3 has to be good in your view. In the real world Tesla has ended up at the bottom of every list where it comes to reliable car brands. Not so long ago I read a review from a Tesla owner. He had lots of problems which are not getting solved and due to the absence of a dealer nearby he lost quite a few vacations days to bring his Tesla back and pick it up unfixed.
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Yeah. Sure. it's reeeeaaallly baaad.
Don't buy one :-DD
Or don't buy the FUD.
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Unfortunately for you the 'least reliable car brand lists' are compiled using experiences from actual owners. IOW they are the cold hard numbers.
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More FUD. No numbers.
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Model 3 SR+ for me. [...]
charging [...] with blazingly fast 105kW at the supercharger(750 km/h).
Wow, that's within two orders of magnitude of my old clunker, which I refill at a rate of 750km per minute.
Yes, the gasoline smell during that process can be mildly annoying. 8)
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sure. but that's only 2 times/year, when going more than 400km apiece.
the other 363 times/year, it takes litterally 20 sec at home for 250km (10 sec to plug in the evening, 10 sec to unplug in the morning.)
And that costs ca. 5x less per km than my old obsolete diesel.
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People who are using the fuel argument are not even the slightest open to EV's at all. They'll to all in their power to make fun of the people who are. It's called trolling I guess.
Stop trying to convince them, it's not going to happen. You have to rip their diesel car out of their cold dead hands.
Or just make it economically unfeasible, that also works.
Meanwhile, can you charge the wrong electricity (https://www.wiesbadener-kurier.de/lokales/rhein-main/autofahrerin-will-tank-mit-staubsauger-auspumpen-brand-an-tankstelle_20344308#)?
The TM3 is simply the best car available today. By far.
Would you still say this without any warranty period from Tesla? Say, second hand bought?
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People who are using the fuel argument are not even the slightest open to EV's at all. They'll to all in their power to make fun of the people who are. It's called trolling I guess.
Stop trying to convince them, it's not going to happen. You have to rip their diesel car out of their cold dead hands.
I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding on the part of EV advocates. People know how ICE cars work; they may need an education on how EVs work.
It's not trolling when someone genuinely wonders how they're going to do their typical road trip if they have an EV that doesn't have the range and can only charge at 24 miles per hour of charge. In many cases, the only suitable answer is "use your other diesel or gas car". That's my answer (I daily a LEAF) and my parents answer (they each drive electric Smart cars), so we're obviously "open to EVs".
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can only charge at 24 miles per hour of charge.
At 4 miles per kWh that's about 6 kW delivered to the battery so presumably you're thinking of 7 kW chargers. Genuinely curious, are there many models where that is the maximum charge rate? Or places where that is the typical power output of a charger intended for short stops? I know the Twizy is limited to ~2.5 kW charging but it's barely a car in many respects.
In the UK, shopping centres and car parks where people typically spend a few hours are usually 7 kW but motorway services, etc. are usually >40 kW. My understanding is that in much of Europe there is a preference for 11 kW (3 phase @ 16 A) rather than 7 kW (single phase at 32 A) for the slow chargers and similar provision of the high power ones.
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I think most ChargePoints are 6.6kW max. ChargePoint is the largest US public charging network (I think by a very wide margin).
My LEAF has a 6.6kW Level 2 charger and a CHAdeMO connector. It has literally only ever been CHAdeMO charged once in its life and that was before delivery. (I have an app that can read the battery stats and am the only owner.)
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That's interesting, I'd not considered that the USA was so lacking in fast-charging infrastructure.
Part of that might be because the USA has adopted the type 1 connector for AC charging which is inherently single-phase, so the fastest AC charging options aren't available without jumping to DC systems like CHAdeMO, though apparently up to 19 kW is still supported on type 1. Over here the installation costs of a 22 kW chargepoint (3 phases at 32 A) aren't hugely higher than that of a 7 kW charge point (at least in commercial installations) as it's essentially the same thing with a few more poles on the contactor. Nearly all the motorway ones are combination chargers that do CHAdeMO, CCS and 43 kW AC.
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That's interesting, I'd not considered that the USA was so lacking in fast-charging infrastructure.
Its not really lacking. It has a lot of Tesla fast chargers, and Teslas are a substantial proportion of the electric cars in the US. What the US lacks, like every other market, is a solid line up of competing electric cars to stimulate a bigger non-Tesla fast charger network.
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My understanding is that in much of Europe there is a preference for 11 kW (3 phase @ 16 A) rather than 7 kW (single phase at 32 A) for the slow chargers and similar provision of the high power ones.
Perhaps that is due to residential capacities.
In the netherlands you have 3x25A (17 kW) and 1x40A (9 kW). Also 3x35A (24 kW), but that is €700 per year more expensive.
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My understanding is that in much of Europe there is a preference for 11 kW (3 phase @ 16 A) rather than 7 kW (single phase at 32 A)
Yes, it's a difficult to solve equation for any EV manufacturer.
- In Europe in general, at public or private AC chargers, you neraly almost always get 3-phase 11 or 22 or sometimes 43 kW
- in The US, you get 120 or 240V single phase at home
- In countries like Germany, you always get 3-phase in residential -> 16A/3phase is the standard charging at home once you install an EVSE.
- In countries like France, 1phase is the overwhelming standard residential (3 phase connection is expensive here), so 32A/1ph charging is the standard at home.
Some EV manuf. like BMW or renault build in only 1 phase chargers on the base model, so charging at a 16A/3ph is limited to 16A/1 phase -> 3kW, that's boringly slow,esp. at germany's time based paid public chargers(and that's because of anti-EV regulations)
For the Tesla M3, it supports 16A/3ph or 32A/1ph, which is really great for all home configurations, with 2 slight disadvantages :
- The 32A/1ph adapter for the included EVSE has to be purchased separately (cheap, but difficult to get)
- The EVSE that Tesla includes in the car cannot charge 3-phase, making 3-phase home charging a separate expense for an EVSE (recommended anyway)
I suppose that Tesla was clever and switches 2 of the 3 single phase 16A chargers in parallel to provide the 32A/1phase with the same Hardware.
For now, I charge at 13A/1phase at home, it's slow but enough for all I do including getting to 100% before long trips.
Looking forward to get the 32A/1ph adapter.
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Yes, it's a difficult to solve equation for any EV manufacturer.
I see that there are costs in making it flexible but it's not that difficult. The Renault Zoe for example just takes the three phase input to a three phase bridge and converts directly to DC, then has a contactor that shorts N to L3 if there's no voltage on the DC output but there is voltage L1-N in order to enable single-phase charging. The contactor is a little odd when they could have just added two more diodes to the bridge and had a permanent neutral connection. The 22 kW and 43 kW models both work the same just with 32 and 63 A maximum phase current (and it seems like 63 A single-phase charging would work in principle on the 43 kW model, as would things like a charge point that only supplied L1 and L2 without N or L3).
The extra cost for supporting 3 phase is a couple of extra diodes in the input stage (trivial), extra current transformers, etc. (moderate?) and a higher voltage rating for many of the components (probably the significant one). US model cars with type 1 connectors just can't have 3 phase because it's inherently a single-phase standard and doesn't have the required number of pins.
Some EV manuf. like BMW or renault build in only 1 phase chargers on the base model, so charging at a 16A/3ph is limited to 16A/1 phase -> 3kW
Of course if the charger were single phase but could work with higher voltages it would be able to charge between phases and give sqrt(3) faster charging, but it's likely the component voltage rating that is the restriction. I am somewhat surprised European manufacturers are skimping on the charger to that extent given that 16A 3 phase is such a common charger in Europe.
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The extra cost for supporting 3 phase is a couple of extra diodes in the input stage (trivial), extra current transformers, etc. (moderate?) and a higher voltage rating for many of the components (probably the significant one).
Unfortunately not.
You can't do that with diodes. The power factor would be extrelmely bad, and that's not allowed by regulation.
You'll need a multi-kW isolated SMPS per phase with a continuous rating, a high immunity to surges, not too heavy, and acting as a PFC. That has quite some cost.
The Renault Zoe for example just takes the three phase
anyone has the specs for 1ph and 3ph charging of the zoe ?
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You can do active PFC on the secondary side of a 3 phase bridge reasonably well so long as there is no capacitance before the converter. It's not perfect because you can't draw current from the lowest voltage phase but you can achieve pretty good conduction angles. Certainly much better than you can achieve on a bridge which is capacitively loaded.
I have seen a diagram for the input structure of the Zoe where the first thing it hits is a three phase bridge, with a L3-N contactor. Of course this wasn't official Renault documentation so maybe it's incorrect or an over-simplification. What is well-documented is that it reused the motor driver and the motor windings as the 43 kW AC charger, I imagine there are plenty of patents describing this if one wanted to go digging.
A 5 minute search found this: https://www.pes-publications.ee.ethz.ch/uploads/tx_ethpublications/__IPEMC_2012_Seminar_3ph_PFC_Rectifiers_FINAL_as_sent_310512.pdf (https://www.pes-publications.ee.ethz.ch/uploads/tx_ethpublications/__IPEMC_2012_Seminar_3ph_PFC_Rectifiers_FINAL_as_sent_310512.pdf) which describes a large number of different three-phase PFC topologies, quite a few with a simple bridge input. I had assumed that the Zoe was something like p29, bridge followed by current-mode switcher giving ~square wave input current with 1/3 dead time. This sounds pretty ugly but the power factor of this is claimed to be 0.952. There are also approaches like on p10 where it is a simple bridge but 3rd harmonic is artificially injected back into the inputs.
(did some digging, it looks like what I read before was an over simplification and the Zoe uses a controlled rectifier as per this patent: https://patents.google.com/patent/US20120286740/en (https://patents.google.com/patent/US20120286740/en))
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OK, Interesting PFC topologies :)
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And a bit more on-topic...
I've been driving the Zoe about 13 months and 10,000 miles now. It basically just works. Most charging is at home overnight with occasional top-ups at other times, e.g. after work if we're going out again. Some use of public chargers with the main problem there being the fragmented ownership of them in the UK - there are dozens of different "charging networks" and for each one you have to sign up, often install an app, and pre-load an account with £10 or so. I just want to be able to show up, pay and charge, charge points with contactless payments would be good there.
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And a bit more on-topic...
I've been driving the Zoe about 13 months and 10,000 miles now. It basically just works. Most charging is at home overnight with occasional top-ups at other times, e.g. after work if we're going out again. Some use of public chargers with the main problem there being the fragmented ownership of them in the UK - there are dozens of different "charging networks" and for each one you have to sign up, often install an app, and pre-load an account with £10 or so. I just want to be able to show up, pay and charge, charge points with contactless payments would be good there.
Have you had much trouble turning up at a charger and finding its dead? There seem to be a lot of dead ones around, and as a casual observer the various apps don't seem to be very thorough in showing them.
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Have you had much trouble turning up at a charger and finding its dead? There seem to be a lot of dead ones around, and as a casual observer the various apps don't seem to be very thorough in showing them.
It's not happened yet. I have though actively avoided ones marked as dead in ZapMap. One petrol station near my got a rapid charger and then proceeded to only switch it on when people went in and asked for it, but they stopped that sillyness after a few weeks. ICE cars parking in the way seems to be more of a problem. Supermarkets in particular seem to have the problem of putting the chargers near the building (probably because that's where the power is) but then the spaces end up being desirable, in close to the entrance with the disabled and parent & child bays, so people just park in them and the only parking enforcement they do is time-of-stay.
I've not yet been unable to charge anywhere that was marked as working, but having multiple bays and chargers in most locations helps there.
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Have you had much trouble turning up at a charger and finding its dead? There seem to be a lot of dead ones around, and as a casual observer the various apps don't seem to be very thorough in showing them.
It's not happened yet. I have though actively avoided ones marked as dead in ZapMap. One petrol station near my got a rapid charger and then proceeded to only switch it on when people went in and asked for it, but they stopped that sillyness after a few weeks. ICE cars parking in the way seems to be more of a problem. Supermarkets in particular seem to have the problem of putting the chargers near the building (probably because that's where the power is) but then the spaces end up being desirable, in close to the entrance with the disabled and parent & child bays, so people just park in them and the only parking enforcement they do is time-of-stay.
I've not yet been unable to charge anywhere that was marked as working, but having multiple bays and chargers in most locations helps there.
I think the placement of charging stations near the building is partly for convenient wiring, but there are other factors. They'd need at least one space near the building as a disabled space, or people would complain they aren't supporting disabled people properly. However, the disabled sticker situation in the UK is insane. Supermarket car parks have at least 10% of their spaces set out as disabled spaces. There used to be just 2 or 3, and they were not always in use.
Companies putting chargers in their staff car parks generally place them in a very desirable (i.e. short walk) part of the car park. I think its considered a perk of driving an electric car.
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Supermarket car parks have at least 10% of their spaces set out as disabled spaces. There used to be just 2 or 3, and they were not always in use.
Not in the Southampton area they don't, 10 spaces out of perhaps 300 seems normal around here, with perhaps a further 20 for parent and child.
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Do quite like my VW Golf GTE PHEV.
For short journeys, which represent 90% of my mileage, it's fantastic. Long term fuel economy is >200mpg (<1.2L/100km)
Electric economy is around 17kWh/100km but if I drive sensibly in summer weather with just the fan/air con on low it gets around 14.5kWh/100km or better.
Likes:
- The regen braking, the instant torque, and smoothness of drivetrain
- The hybrid petrol-electric combination for acceleration (210 hp is enough to make a dent when trying to overtake)
- Adaptive cruise and auto hold are so smooth and well put together
- Cost of running on electric is dirt cheap
- Petrol engine is surprisingly efficient (~50 mpg is possible if driven sensibly with summer tyres)
Dislikes:
- DSG gearbox can be a bit clunky (shifts are a little jerky), especially when cold (think it's related to the DSG clutches and the oil)
- DSG gearbox isn't great at going from high gear to low gear quickly (e.g. 20 mph approach onto a roundabout and rapid acceleration) but this can be reduced by paddle shifting down before. Yes, the car uses the gearbox in e-mode, which is odd!
- HV battery has had recall already which resulted in replacement due to poorly fitted weather seal (93C3 recall action) but bonus was new HV batt at 51,000 miles
- Adaptive cruise sometimes doesn't get the braking right in traffic on hills which results in a tiny bit of rollback when setting off but nothing serious
- Range in winter is quite a bit poorer with only the resistive heating and poor cabin insulation
- Overall range of the car is quite poor, which is fine for my uses but means waiting for a charge to use e-mode again (e.g. pop home and stop for 1.5 hours to wait for charge before going on a journey, or finding a shopping centre with charging.) The car has a petrol engine, but I like to minimise the use of that!
- Service schedule is same as regular Golf despite low engine use; ultimately cost of annual maintenance is similar, although fully synthetic oil recommended which is extra.
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Do quite like my VW Golf GTE PHEV.
For short journeys, which represent 90% of my mileage, it's fantastic. Long term fuel economy is >200mpg (<1.2L/100km)
Thanks for the info. The PHEV Golf was never available in North America, I'd love to see one. I drive the full-on EV Golf, and even the 135hp (100kW) motor is pretty zippy for city driving.
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Do quite like my VW Golf GTE PHEV.
For short journeys, which represent 90% of my mileage, it's fantastic. Long term fuel economy is >200mpg (<1.2L/100km)
Thanks for the info. The PHEV Golf was never available in North America, I'd love to see one. I drive the full-on EV Golf, and even the 135hp (100kW) motor is pretty zippy for city driving.
You electric car guys are all torque, and that matters a lot more than maximum power for city driving. The old rubber band driven gas powered DAFs used to be able to move off the line faster than a Ferrari, because they could get quite a high gearing ratio from the transmission, and apply enormous torque for their initial burst of motion.
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Do quite like my VW Golf GTE PHEV.
For short journeys, which represent 90% of my mileage, it's fantastic. Long term fuel economy is >200mpg (<1.2L/100km)
Thanks for the info. The PHEV Golf was never available in North America, I'd love to see one. I drive the full-on EV Golf, and even the 135hp (100kW) motor is pretty zippy for city driving.
You electric car guys are all torque, and that matters a lot more than maximum power for city driving. The old rubber band driven gas powered DAFs used to be able to move off the line faster than a Ferrari, because they could get quite a high gearing ratio from the transmission, and apply enormous torque for their initial burst of motion.
Yep, dad's old 66 Marathon was pretty quick off the line. It had a tiny 1300cc renault engine (maybe 60hp), but was really quick off the line; although I always put reason for that on the bright yellow paint job w/ black racing stripe.
A car unknown outside of Europe.
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The GTE has ~400Nm of torque from standstill; more than the GTI (the GTI has to hit ~3500rpm before it can deliver that torque.)
One other thing that is rarely talked of is that without a clutch engagement, there is no need to slip that to set off quickly. That is after all the point of launch control and like systems; with the GTE, simply press the pedal hard. Even in the sporty GTE hybrid mode, the car sets off in electric, then switches the engine on as the e-motor begins to ramp off in torque. So, the initial launch is pretty good, though, not as crazy as the Model S, which I test drove. That really surprised me, and caught me out once on the test drive.
I find the pure electric torque to be *more* than sufficient for the majority of my driving. The car is so quick off the line, great for nipping in gaps when you need. It's like having an ICE car that's permanently in the powerband, has full torque available until about 40 mph, which as coppice says, is basically all you ever need for a city.
For my work commute, I drive there and back on EV, and in the summer months I've been getting rated mileage so I could do the 50km or so that the car says you have in the tank. There are chargers at work, which I need to use to make the return journey possible. But this is no issue at all, as I am usually there for 9 hours a day. Plenty of time to charge.
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Do quite like my VW Golf GTE PHEV.
For short journeys, which represent 90% of my mileage, it's fantastic. Long term fuel economy is >200mpg (<1.2L/100km)
Thanks for the info. The PHEV Golf was never available in North America, I'd love to see one. I drive the full-on EV Golf, and even the 135hp (100kW) motor is pretty zippy for city driving.
You electric car guys are all torque, and that matters a lot more than maximum power for city driving. The old rubber band driven gas powered DAFs used to be able to move off the line faster than a Ferrari, because they could get quite a high gearing ratio from the transmission, and apply enormous torque for their initial burst of motion.
I have a Honda CVT Hybrid, which is exactly that plus electric motor. It's quickly away, but soon overtaken. Total power to weight is miserable with only a 70 kW VTEC motor and 15 kW electric.
Would never go back to full ICE though. The immediate response on throttle and single pedal highway driving is amazing.
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You electric car guys are all torque, and that matters a lot more than maximum power for city driving. The old rubber band driven gas powered DAFs used to be able to move off the line faster than a Ferrari, because they could get quite a high gearing ratio from the transmission, and apply enormous torque for their initial burst of motion.
You should brush up your physics. Only power gets you moving because power delivers energy. Look at formulas and think about that long and hard before replying. Saying torque gets you going is like saying voltage is flowing through a light bulb.
But let me rephrase your comment: an EV can develop a lot of power at low revs so can get away quickly.
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You electric car guys are all torque, and that matters a lot more than maximum power for city driving. The old rubber band driven gas powered DAFs used to be able to move off the line faster than a Ferrari, because they could get quite a high gearing ratio from the transmission, and apply enormous torque for their initial burst of motion.
You should brush up your physics. Only power gets you moving because power delivers energy. Look at formulas and think about that long and hard before replying. Saying torque gets you going is like saying voltage is flowing through a light bulb.
But let me rephrase your comment: an EV can develop a lot of power at low revs so can get away quickly.
I think you need to brush up your physics or your reading skills. Only the power you can actually deliver to the wheels gets you moving. Most cars cannot deliver much power from rest, because they are torque limited. They lack the extreme gearing needed to achieve the kind of torque that would allow them to deliver a high percentage of their power capacity.
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You electric car guys are all torque, and that matters a lot more than maximum power for city driving. The old rubber band driven gas powered DAFs used to be able to move off the line faster than a Ferrari, because they could get quite a high gearing ratio from the transmission, and apply enormous torque for their initial burst of motion.
You should brush up your physics. Only power gets you moving because power delivers energy. Look at formulas and think about that long and hard before replying. Saying torque gets you going is like saying voltage is flowing through a light bulb.
But let me rephrase your comment: an EV can develop a lot of power at low revs so can get away quickly.
I think you need to brush up your physics or your reading skills. Only the power you can actually deliver to the wheels gets you moving. Most cars cannot deliver much power from rest, because they are torque limited. They lack the extreme gearing needed to achieve the kind of torque that would allow them to deliver a high percentage of their power capacity.
Let's talk physics.
For rotion the power on a shaft is:
P=omega * torque
Omega the angular velocity in rad/sec.
torque is in N-m.
So at zero speed there is no power.
As the shaft begins to rotate then power comes into play.
Cars can't deliver power from rest because the speed is low or zero.
The rate of angular acceleration is:
d(omega)/dt=I * torque
I is the inertia.
This ignores friction losses.
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But in the end it is the amount of power the motor can output which determines how fast it can accellerate. Torque is only interesting for dimensioning the gears. A gearbox is just like a impedance adaption transformer. It maximises the power transfer. Also if you have a motor with a constant power output then the torque will decrease with increasing RPM. That is very counter intuitive because more is usually better.
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But in the end it is the amount of power the motor can output which determines how fast it can accellerate. Torque is only interesting for dimensioning the gears. A gearbox is just like a impedance adaption transformer. It maximises the power transfer. Also if you have a motor with a constant power output then the torque will decrease with increasing RPM. That is very counter intuitive because more is usually better.
Read what ahbushnell wrote. When the car is moving slowly it takes a huge amount of torque for even a small amount of power to be applied to accelerating the car. Any real world motor has a maximum torque that it can produce, and this limits the power it can apply to accelerating the car, and therefore limits the acceleration. As the car speeds up, the amount of power needed to sustain maximum torque rises, until the engine becomes limited by the amount of power it can produce. From that point it is the power capacity of the motor which limits acceleration.
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Does the LEAF have a 240V 10A EVSE these days?
IIRC is never used to?
If I got a LEAF I'd picture myself charging from a normal 240V 10A outlet quite a lot.
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Yes, in the UK at least the Leaf comes with a standard "granny lead" as well as a type2 lead (the Leaf itself either has a type1 socket for older models, or type2 for newer.)
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But in the end it is the amount of power the motor can output which determines how fast it can accellerate. Torque is only interesting for dimensioning the gears. A gearbox is just like a impedance adaption transformer. It maximises the power transfer. Also if you have a motor with a constant power output then the torque will decrease with increasing RPM. That is very counter intuitive because more is usually better.
The point isn't that EV's have more torque, the e-Golf has approximately the same torque figure as a 2.0L petrol TSI engine.
The point is that an EV can deliver the full torque to the motor shaft from zero rpm, without a clutch or torque-converter slipping to regulate speed, and without having to be at a high-rpm. Most petrol engines deliver peak torque around 3000 rpm, which means that for first gear in a regular car, you need to be around 15 mph before the vehicle is maximising its torque capability.
One side effect of this if is you have ever tried to park a car with an automatic gearbox. It is a lot harder in my car to park (torque control is worse so creeping into my short driveway is hard) when the EV battery is "flat" and the car is using the engine exclusively for drive functions. When in the electric mode, I can creep forward less than 1cm at a time because the clutches are fully engaged and there is no need to slip anything.
Climbing up a hill is also interesting, at low speeds. The "power meter" in the GTE will go to about 30%, which would indicate that the car is pulling 25kW or so, but the actual power consumption is around 3-4kW. (At low speeds the power meter seems to map to torque instead, perhaps to give a consistent appearance.) Most ICE vehicles to climb a hill need to run the engine quite aggressively in a low gear to get the torque required, but my car will climb almost anything in 4th or 5th gear in E-mode, and burns relatively few electrons doing this.
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Does the LEAF have a 240V 10A EVSE these days?
IIRC is never used to?
If I got a LEAF I'd picture myself charging from a normal 240V 10A outlet quite a lot.
In North America, the couple of friends that I know that have them got 120V/12A charging cables with theirs. Whether that was the dealer that threw it in or not, I'm not sure, but a 240/10A is pretty inexpensive (Check out Mike's recent teardown of a couple).
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But in the end it is the amount of power the motor can output which determines how fast it can accellerate. Torque is only interesting for dimensioning the gears. A gearbox is just like a impedance adaption transformer. It maximises the power transfer. Also if you have a motor with a constant power output then the torque will decrease with increasing RPM. That is very counter intuitive because more is usually better.
The point isn't that EV's have more torque, the e-Golf has approximately the same torque figure as a 2.0L petrol TSI engine.
The point is that an EV can deliver the full torque to the motor shaft from zero rpm, without a clutch or torque-converter slipping to regulate speed, and without having to be at a high-rpm. Most petrol engines deliver peak torque around 3000 rpm, which means that for first gear in a regular car, you need to be around 15 mph before the vehicle is maximising its torque capability.
One side effect of this if is you have ever tried to park a car with an automatic gearbox. It is a lot harder in my car to park (torque control is worse so creeping into my short driveway is hard) when the EV battery is "flat" and the car is using the engine exclusively for drive functions. When in the electric mode, I can creep forward less than 1cm at a time because the clutches are fully engaged and there is no need to slip anything.
Climbing up a hill is also interesting, at low speeds. The "power meter" in the GTE will go to about 30%, which would indicate that the car is pulling 25kW or so, but the actual power consumption is around 3-4kW. (At low speeds the power meter seems to map to torque instead, perhaps to give a consistent appearance.) Most ICE vehicles to climb a hill need to run the engine quite aggressively in a low gear to get the torque required, but my car will climb almost anything in 4th or 5th gear in E-mode, and burns relatively few electrons doing this.
Sorry but this is utter nonsense from a physics point of view. It doesn't make any sense at all.
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But in the end it is the amount of power the motor can output which determines how fast it can accellerate. Torque is only interesting for dimensioning the gears. A gearbox is just like a impedance adaption transformer. It maximises the power transfer. Also if you have a motor with a constant power output then the torque will decrease with increasing RPM. That is very counter intuitive because more is usually better.
Read what ahbushnell wrote. When the car is moving slowly it takes a huge amount of torque for even a small amount of power to be applied to accelerating the car. Any real world motor has a maximum torque that it can produce, and this limits the power it can apply to accelerating the car, and therefore limits the acceleration.
No. Taking off is a limit situation which is bridged by the clutch or torque converter. Once the clutch or torque converter are fully engaged it is all about power. If you keep talking about torque then you are severely fooling yourself. Look at the formulas and imagine an engine with a constant power output (my previous car had a flat spot in the rpm/power curve where the torque becomes lower with increasing RPM). I can prove mathematically that the accelleration is faster when staying in the maximum power output range rather than switching gears to get back into the maximum torque area.
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No. Taking off is a limit situation which is bridged by the clutch or torque converter. Once the clutch or torque converter are fully engaged it is all about power. If you keep talking about torque then you are severely fooling yourself. Look at the formulas and imagine an engine with a constant power output (my previous car had a flat spot in the rpm/power curve where the torque becomes lower with increasing RPM). I can prove mathematically that the accelleration is faster when staying in the maximum power output range rather than switching gears to get back into the maximum torque area.
Well, duh. Of course it is faster if an engine produces a fixed 100 hp.
But the reality is for the *vast majority* of internal combustion engine cars, it is not possible to get fixed power output at any given vehicular speed because the gearbox will never be able to keep the engine there. The exception is a CVT gearbox, which can probably most closely replicate the performance of an EV with an ICE. CVTs are unusual, though Honda and Nissan do make some, and the Prius has an e-CVT planetary drive set which replicates the performance of a CVT but uses two electric motors instead of a belt and cone drive.
In most EVs, the torque available from near zero rpm is full, limited only by the traction control system and the gearbox. So, say from 2mph upwards, the car can output full torque.
At the point of maximum power (when RPM * Torque = Pmax) the torque begins to ramp off. Attached graph shows this behaviour. Depending on the EV this is somewhere between 30 and 50 mph. For the Model S RWD85 it is around 45 mph. I believe for the P100D it is a bit lower because the vehicle is limited to 1300A from the battery. The power then remains constant until the Vmax of the motor is reached, typically this is due to commutation limits or sometimes just software.
(https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-aaff63afaeec9c298acde71b9435fbe6.webp)
Compared to an ICE vehicle, you would need to be at an RPM of ~2500-3500rpm to obtain maximum torque. So if you want to gain maximum torque on launch, you need a system like launch control, which holds the clutch just at bite point for longer so the engine does not stall as the car launches. This is of course terrible for the longevity of the clutch packs and in many owners manuals the vehicle manufacturer recommends avoiding frequent launches. But, the option is there.
EVs have this same launch characteristic (minus the slightly lower power output typically) without risking shredding the clutch plates. BUT, ultimately, it does not matter. Until you hit the peak power rpm of an engine, you don't get that peak power. So the initial launch is always torque limited, and therefore most EVs will do better than most ICE vehicles on launch.
My GTE has a "psuedo-launch-control" system. Pressing both the brake and accelerator when stopped when in the sport-GTE mode will start the engine and run it for 30sec. The car will still launch with just the e-motor, then at sufficient speed clutch in the engine, around 2000rpm and combine the power output of the two systems. The net effect is that the total system power of the car (~220 hp) is approximately fixed until 100 mph. The electric motor applies an opposing power curve to compensate for the engine's varying power output across the rev range.
Ultimately, torque is what moves you. That is the force in F=ma. Power is a necessary expenditure because you are moving a heavy car up to some speed, with air resistance and friction.
I do ask ... how many EVs have you driven? I have driven probably about 10 models, and ALL of them launch better than any ICE vehicle I have driven.
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But in the end it is the amount of power the motor can output which determines how fast it can accellerate. Torque is only interesting for dimensioning the gears. A gearbox is just like a impedance adaption transformer. It maximises the power transfer. Also if you have a motor with a constant power output then the torque will decrease with increasing RPM. That is very counter intuitive because more is usually better.
The point isn't that EV's have more torque, the e-Golf has approximately the same torque figure as a 2.0L petrol TSI engine.
The point is that an EV can deliver the full torque to the motor shaft from zero rpm, without a clutch or torque-converter slipping to regulate speed, and without having to be at a high-rpm. Most petrol engines deliver peak torque around 3000 rpm, which means that for first gear in a regular car, you need to be around 15 mph before the vehicle is maximising its torque capability.
One side effect of this if is you have ever tried to park a car with an automatic gearbox. It is a lot harder in my car to park (torque control is worse so creeping into my short driveway is hard) when the EV battery is "flat" and the car is using the engine exclusively for drive functions. When in the electric mode, I can creep forward less than 1cm at a time because the clutches are fully engaged and there is no need to slip anything.
Climbing up a hill is also interesting, at low speeds. The "power meter" in the GTE will go to about 30%, which would indicate that the car is pulling 25kW or so, but the actual power consumption is around 3-4kW. (At low speeds the power meter seems to map to torque instead, perhaps to give a consistent appearance.) Most ICE vehicles to climb a hill need to run the engine quite aggressively in a low gear to get the torque required, but my car will climb almost anything in 4th or 5th gear in E-mode, and burns relatively few electrons doing this.
Sorry but this is utter nonsense from a physics point of view. It doesn't make any sense at all.
A permanent magnet motor can generate it's full torque at zero speed. Not so a combustion engine.
That's a well known fact. Look it up on a book on electric motors.
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Is it too much to ask that people who have never even driven an EV refrain from posting in an "Electric Car Experiences" thread? I mean if you don't have any direct experiences, then what exactly can you contribute?
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and ALL of them launch better than any ICE vehicle I have driven.
Because they have more power at low RPM but that doesn't really matter. In order to move a mass you need to supply energy. Power is energy per time unit. Sure you can derive torque but your graph shows precisely why speaking about torque is so bad. Usually more is better but at a certain point the torque starts to drop and suddenly less gets better?? How does that match climbing uphill needing more torque when you are in the area where the torque is declining? Even worse, you can fit a different motor with half the torque and the same power rating and still get exactly the same accelleration. Only this motor will run at double the RPM and the gear ratio needs to be changed as well.
And there is more to it. At the research institute where I used to work they did tests to determine how people perceive accelleration of a car. Interestingly the fastest accelleration isn't perceived as fast at all. A constant torque (and thus increasing power) is perceived as a faster accelleration than using constant (maximum) power. That is why most car motors/engines are controlled to have a constant torque (the graph you posted is a nice example). You can try it yourself if the engine in your car has such a characteristic. When the maximum power is reached it will feel like a dud when you want to accellerate further. In an ICE (usually with a turbo-charged engine) this effect will tempt you to change gears but in reality you are making things worse.
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Is it too much to ask that people who have never even driven an EV refrain from posting in an "Electric Car Experiences" thread? I mean if you don't have any direct experiences, then what exactly can you contribute?
As the OP of this thread, I would ask people to try and stay on topic.
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Is it too much to ask that people who have never even driven an EV refrain from posting in an "Electric Car Experiences" thread? I mean if you don't have any direct experiences, then what exactly can you contribute?
Though I daily drive a LEAF, I think there are people who've never driven an electric who can contribute their own relevant points of view in reaction to range anxiety, TCO, purchase price reaction, etc.
It's extraordinarily rare that an internet forum thread stays singularly focused and narrowly scoped to the subject line of the thread.
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I'm not saying a topic can't wander, I mean I'm certainly guilty of that myself. I just find the constant posts ripping on EVs with baseless arguments, previously debunked myths, deflect, deflect, move the goalpost, wash, rinse, repeat from a person or persons who have never even driven one to be rather tiresome and predictable.
And on the topic of experiences, while I haven't owned an EV, I have driven a Meyers NMG, Nissan Leaf, Chevy Spark and a Kia Soul EV. The NMG did not impress me greatly but it was novel at the time as one of the first highway capable EVs. The Leaf felt remarkably like any other modern compact car I've driven. The Spark is crazy fast, at least off the line is feels quicker than the BMW M3 I drove a few times years ago. The Soul is similar to the Leaf in feel, not exciting to drive but smooth and quiet and a lot quicker and more responsive than a Prius. With exception of the NMG, the friends and family members with the other EVs are still driving them after several years and still rave about them. All are used for commuting and driving around town, picking up groceries, dropping off and picking up kids, etc. I can only roll my eyes when someone starts listing reasons EVs don't work when so many people are somehow able to manage with them just fine.
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Because they have more power at low RPM but that doesn't really matter.
I think you may misunderstand something here, an electric motor generally has very high torque at low RPM but power is determined by the torque and speed of the motor, so power output at low RPM is low by definition.
? How does that match climbing uphill needing more torque when you are in the area where the torque is declining?
If you are accelerating up hill in a car that is in the power-limited region you will find your acceleration is limited by the need to put more energy in to climb the hill. Power rating is the most meaningful figure as for most intents and purposes at speed you will be above the constant torque region and in the constant power region. Therefore more power means more acceleration, for the same given weight.
In my car I can use the full 85kW to climb a steep hill at 70 mph. The battery depletes rapidly and the power limit starts kicking in. It is enough to get to the end (4 miles) without any problem but I expend over 4kWh doing that. But that is fine - the car was always designed as a short range PHEV so you will never really be able to overheat the car for any meaningful climb (I have tried it on a very long climb, once the power limit gets to 50%, the engine starts automatically.) A more efficient vehicle with a higher power motor and a larger battery will have no problem accelerating up hills, nobody complains about a Tesla overheating when driving up steep 3000ft highway climbs at 70 mph. Of course the range is poor, but an internal combustion engine will have similar drop in fuel economy. At least the EV going down hill will get good economy because the e-motor can act as a generator.
I took a different route home today and used the motorway. I sat in the slow lane at 60 mph with the adaptive cruise on, and still achieved 15kWh/100km, with the car regening nicely down the steep hills and putting a bit of power out up the hill. I managed to achieve the rated mileage of the car, and with adaptive cruise, felt almost no stress compared to trying to weave in and out of lanes at 70-80 mph. But, perhaps the electric car "economy bug" is getting to me. I keep trying to achieve better than that figure. I suspect in winter, with winter tyres on,thicker & colder air, and the heating running, I will struggle to get as good as I do in summer, but it will be interesting to watch. I want a really cold winter this year so I can test that.
Even worse, you can fit a different motor with half the torque and the same power rating and still get exactly the same accelleration. Only this motor will run at double the RPM and the gear ratio needs to be changed as well.
I'm not sure what your point is here. If you change the gear ratio, you change the torque. All torque figures are given after any gearbox effects. Unless I am misunderstanding you?
And there is more to it. At the research institute where I used to work they did tests to determine how people perceive accelleration of a car. Interestingly the fastest accelleration isn't perceived as fast at all. A constant torque (and thus increasing power) is perceived as a faster accelleration than using constant (maximum) power. That is why most car motors/engines are controlled to have a constant torque (the graph you posted is a nice example). You can try it yourself if the engine in your car has such a characteristic. When the maximum power is reached it will feel like a dud when you want to accellerate further. In an ICE (usually with a turbo-charged engine) this effect will tempt you to change gears but in reality you are making things worse.
An ICE will have low torque at low RPM. Almost by definition it cannot have a constant torque region. Most ICE vehicles with auto gearboxes (in acceleration or sport profile) are keeping the engine in a high power region, where power fluctuates about 10-20% over the RPM range between each gear. The GTE compensates for this fluctuation by having the e-motor provide less assistance at higher engine RPMs; this means the output power is roughly constant over the RPM range, 2000-6200rpm. But the GTE is unusual in this design, most ICE hybrids are not designed for performance, and most ICE vehicles are not hybrids...
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I'm not sure what your point is here. If you change the gear ratio, you change the torque. All torque figures are given after any gearbox effects. Unless I am misunderstanding you?
It is my understanding that with cars in general the torque figure is that of the motor/engine and not of what gets on the wheels. Or at least any torque/power graph I've seen so far shows the torque of the motor/engine and not what ends up on the wheels. I think your graph also shows engine torque and not torque on the wheel. A long time ago I calculated what kind of torque you can produce on the wheels in 1st gear. I ended up with a crazy number like 1000Nm or something like that for a relatively small ICE engine. So around 400Nm seems a low-ish number to me to drive the wheels. If I assume the graph is for a Model S with wheels with a 25" diameter then I get to a power output of about 100kW at 50mph (2400 RPM) based on the torque so it seems the graph shows the engine torque and not the torque on the wheels. Again, you can make the motor/engine torque anything you want. As long as the power output stays the same, the accelleration will be the same.
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It is my understanding that with cars in general the torque figure is that of the motor/engine and not of what gets on the wheels.
In the US anyhow, this is correct, all power figures are at the flywheel, not wheels.
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The power figures are at the flywheel, but obviously what you feel is the power at the wheels. I'm not sure what difference this makes though, ultimately specs only tell you part of the story anyway, to get the rest you have to evaluate the car as a whole.
To me the EVs I've driven certainly feel quicker and more responsive than comparable ICE cars. That instant response and tremendous low end torque makes them really leap from a stop.
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The power figures are at the flywheel, but obviously what you feel is the power at the wheels. I'm not sure what difference this makes though, ultimately specs only tell you part of the story anyway, to get the rest you have to evaluate the car as a whole.
To me the EVs I've driven certainly feel quicker and more responsive than comparable ICE cars. That instant response and tremendous low end torque makes them really leap from a stop.
My EV is torque-limited or torque-reduced up to 10-15MPH and then it takes off. I have 3 rather ordinary cars, and of the 3 the EV definitely feels the quickest, but by the numbers it is the slowest. It seems to be programmed so that if you put your foot down 1/4 of the way it feels strong, but if you go further there's nothing else left.
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Your discussion is going straight past each other saying the same things.
Yes an EV is limited by torque. But only because the motor is limited by current, or because the drivetrain/tires can't take the torque.
Torque is force without work. If you add work before speed the motor burns, so you limit torque current.
In an ICE you have to wait for explosions to get torque. Torque is a derivative of the explosion. Yet only many explosions support lots of work. If you add work before speed you stall it. Same problem.
An EV doesn't need to wait until enough explosions are happening to do work. Thus it's faster and better.
It seems to be programmed so that if you put your foot down 1/4 of the way it feels strong, but if you go further there's nothing else left.
It's probably limited for safety. Otherwise you'd be going 80 kmh/50 mph before the end of the intersection. You should enable "ludicrous" mode if you have it. :P
My hybrid is extremely laggy when the battery is low. It needs 5000 rpm just to drive off.
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The power figures are at the flywheel, but obviously what you feel is the power at the wheels. I'm not sure what difference this makes though, ultimately specs only tell you part of the story anyway, to get the rest you have to evaluate the car as a whole.
To me the EVs I've driven certainly feel quicker and more responsive than comparable ICE cars. That instant response and tremendous low end torque makes them really leap from a stop.
Either way be aware that motors/engines in a car are setup to fool your senses.
Still I think that an electric motor has another advantage over an ICE engine. On an electric motor it is easier to control the traction. IMHO this also helps to get a car quicker from it's place. I recall reading about diesel locomotives in which the diesel engine is not driving the wheels directly but a generator which in turn drives an electric motor because an electric motor has easier/better control over traction.
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Still I think that an electric motor has another advantage over an ICE engine. On an electric motor it is easier to control the traction. IMHO this also helps to get a car quicker from it's place. I recall reading about diesel locomotives in which the diesel engine is not driving the wheels directly but a generator which in turn drives an electric motor because an electric motor has easier/better control over traction.
The traction control response is much better in EVs. Depending on the vehicle of course.
Most ICE vehicles traction control just interrupts spark/fuel or otherwise tells the ECU to not supply power for that revolution. So the power is "choppy". Some newer cars can modulate the power better but are limited to the response rate of the engine.
The GTE does not have spectacularly great traction control (can judder on a start), but the Model 3 is fantastic.
Diesel locomotives have been using the setup you describe for quite some time. Braking is often rheostatic, and different speeds are utilised by selecting taps on either the motor or generator. Some vehicles are hybrid, using the 25kV overhead line and a diesel generator to supplement this (or running the diesel engine on sections without overhead lines or between points.)
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The traction control response is much better in EVs. [...]
Even under manual control, I have found electric traction motors (on a hybrid in my case) are much better for driving in snow - it is just so much easier to get the force "just right" to move the car without spinning the wheels. Even if you do manage to get stuck, electric is far easier to control to get you out of the hole - you can do the "rocking" trick starting with just a few mm movement and eventually get out. This can be done with an ICE too, of course, but it is not as easy to control "just so" as with electric drive.
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Yeah, 100% agreed there. The electric mode on my car can creep at very low speeds precisely. I can creep up a 1 in 3 hill at less than 1 mph and the car feels perfectly controllable, try doing that in a manual or automatic ICE and it is nearly impossible.
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I drive a BMW i3, love it. perfect metro commuter car. simple tweaks like wheel spacers dramatically improve handing over stock.
And I also convert old gas motorcycles to electric, which is crazy fun. You can see more
here: http://nightshiftbikes.com (http://nightshiftbikes.com)
and
here https://www.instagram.com/nightshiftbikes/ (https://www.instagram.com/nightshiftbikes/)
Happy to answer any questions. Much to learn....
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Another Zoe ownership update, I've been driving it about 17 months now.
Average mileage over the last 50 weeks (near enough a whole year) has been 4.09 miles per kWh. The mid-winter (southern UK) mileage was closer to 3.6 mpkWh. Not resetting the trip meter for a whole year has revealed a software bug whereby once the accumulated miles exceeds around 6000 (probably it's 10,000 km) the displayed mpkWh figure starts to fall, it seems to display total miles and total energy correctly and you get sensible numbers if you divide them manually but the internal calculation seems to use a capped mileage figure.
Highest predicted miles I've seen on a full charge has been 111, lowest in the depths of winter was 76 I think. This is the older 22 kWh model.
I have had one incident where I turned up at a rapid charger and couldn't get it to work. There were other nearby chargers but they were slow (7 kW) and on a network I hadn't used before, so I just drove slowly and gently and got home with a reasonable amount of margin. Generally though most charging has been at home overnight.
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[...] I also convert old gas motorcycles to electric, which is crazy fun. [...]
That looks interesting. Is the electric motor in the hub, with the battery where the ICE used to be?
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I've got the e-Golf I leased via my work place two weeks ago - and I'm quite enjoying it.
It's the 35 kWh version, and I seem to be getting around 200 km (125 mi) out of a charge, at an energy consumption of around 13-15 kWh / 100 km.
I mostly charge at work, but have build quite a portfolio of charging point access card - there's a lot of different networks in Germany, each with their own stations, cards, and cooperations between each other. Unfortunately, the prices also differ quite a bit - from 30 ct / kWh, over costs like 20 ct / min, or "per session" charges of around 6-8 €.
I think the car would do well with a few more technical tips and tricks for the driver - much of the different driving modes enable wasteful regenerative braking, which diminishes range when you could've just glided. Some less involved sources even recommend to use B mode for increased range, which is just plain wrong.
The only things holding back the car itself, in my opinion, are:
The antiquated FWD layout. It's clearly a remnant of the MQB platform, which made it impossible to package the drive train where it belongs. As a result, it's very easy to get the (very responsive) traction control system to engage.
The rather slow AC charging speeds. Because of models like Renault's Zoe, many charging stations support far greater AC currents than the maximum 7.2 kW the e-Golf can accept. This strikes me as particularly odd, since there's a lot of empty room in the front compartment where the battery charger is located.
I can't wait to get to drive the I.D.3 - more capacity, more charging power, more powerful motor which is driving the correct set of wheels - very promising.
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Hi. Someone in our town needed new batteries in his Prius and didn't like the price, took the car to the scrap metal yard. When the recyclers looked into what to do with the old battery, they found lots of restrictive laws, no depot in the country equipped/authorized to recycle them, so there it sits! They can't dispose of the battery.
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Old Priii have NiCd batteries, Cadmium is highly toxic, and nobody builds new batteries out of cadmium any more, so it becomes an economic and environmental problem at this point.
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Old Priii have NiCd batteries, Cadmium is highly toxic, and nobody builds new batteries out of cadmium any more, so it becomes an economic and environmental problem at this point.
Old Priii have NiMH batteries. There is no cadmium in them.
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Hi. Someone in our town needed new batteries in his Prius and didn't like the price, took the car to the scrap metal yard. When the recyclers looked into what to do with the old battery, they found lots of restrictive laws, no depot in the country equipped/authorized to recycle them, so there it sits! They can't dispose of the battery.
They should just auction it off, plenty of DIYers would like to get one for dirt cheap. Some other DIYers would be interested in the rest of the car to build a plug in hybrid out of.
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Not that easy to build a good PHEV out of a prius, unfortunately, because when reaching 50-60km/h the ICE must unfortunately turn because MG1 needs to deliver power.
One option would perhaps be to rip out the ICE and build a full EV. Not sure if it has been done :)
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.. This discussion it seams will be endless. I have few words to say.. On the political/people point of view.
I have worked on 'electro-car' fork lifters and little pickup trucks like used inside factories for more then a decade now. They all are with Lead-acid style battery packs and seems to do good job .. Around 5 years of life and can be recycled .. All day use, all night in the charging station ~ 250 work days per year.. But after 5 years that is 3k€ for a new pack.. A lithium based pack will be at least 3-4 times more in price.. As that said we come to my original idea to write in this topic - In not so developed counties like mine is crazy expensive to get an EV, there is no charging stations, most of the people live in big blocks of apartments with no garages .. And most of them have 2nd hand 20+ years old ICE cars.. I they will use them util total failure happens with absolutely no thoughts for the nature and how bad the emissions are. When i ask some of them about that responses are something like: I don't care; people after me must think about that; are you crazy ?; why do you care? etc.. etc.. And they still use coal vastly for heating in the winter. Coal power plants have ways of reducing sulfur by combining it with another stuffs and get gypsum in the end. Using few stages of burning and get away will "most" of that bad stuff in the Coal. That way you can use that somewhat more clean way to get electrical power and used for heating and EVs .. And the nuclear energy is mostly clean, water energy is clean too. People don't want to save, they want everything cheap and in the moment, no matter that they will have nothing tomorrow ... And that is everywhere in the world but is more true for more poorer counties .. If you have EV and charge it with wind turbine in your house - that will be the perfect thing to do.. Nothing more then EVs for a personal transport will economy be viable .. ever.
Let's hope that solid state batteries are coming soon.
On the oil side of things - The asphalt in the roads is the last and heaviest product leftover from the oil refineries, the tires are mostly from similar products, the plastics too, the paints.. The manufacturing energy and the materials are mostly fossil fuels or they use mostly fossil fuels to make them .. It is too big to covered it all.
Don't hate me please.. :blah:
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Not that easy to build a good PHEV out of a prius, unfortunately, because when reaching 50-60km/h the ICE must unfortunately turn because MG1 needs to deliver power.
One option would perhaps be to rip out the ICE and build a full EV. Not sure if it has been done :)
Plug-in Prius does 72mph on electric?
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The newest prius PHEV can go faster on electric but is not available used for cheap because it's new,
so not a good candidate either for a full EV conversion.
In a few years, when the ICE in it will be hopeless, and the price down, maybe
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The newest prius PHEV can go faster on electric but is not available used for cheap because it's new,
so not a good candidate either for a full EV conversion.
In a few years, when the ICE in it will be hopeless, and the price down, maybe
When waiting for a Toyota HSD ICE engine to die, it’s advised to bring a lot of patience. That system has proven extremely reliable, low maintenance, and long-lived.
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The newest prius PHEV can go faster on electric but is not available used for cheap because it's new,
so not a good candidate either for a full EV conversion.
In a few years, when the ICE in it will be hopeless, and the price down, maybe
When waiting for a Toyota HSD ICE engine to die, it’s advised to bring a lot of patience. That system has proven extremely reliable, low maintenance, and long-lived.
The Prius has the lowest maintenance costs of all comparable cars, according to an article I read recently... It is truly a remarkable vehicle.
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Hi. Someone in our town needed new batteries in his Prius and didn't like the price, took the car to the scrap metal yard. When the recyclers looked into what to do with the old battery, they found lots of restrictive laws, no depot in the country equipped/authorized to recycle them, so there it sits! They can't dispose of the battery.
It's about a 20 minute job to remove the small NiMH battery pack from a Prius, at which point it would appear like any other car to a recycler.
Here's a video on a full replacement, done in the driveway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3RCdrh666w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3RCdrh666w)
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are you crazy ?; why do you care? etc.. etc.. And they still use coal vastly for heating in the winter. Coal power plants have ways of reducing sulfur by combining it with another stuffs and get gypsum in the end.
Uuhmmm... no. In the EU fuel is free of sulfur (since 2015) but coal power plants are still emitting SO2 (*). So in the end an EV will emit way more SO2 compared to an ICE car. Ofcourse this will vary per country depening on how much coal is used. Keep in mind lots of electricity is generated locally using coal but the CO2 emissions are compensated through emission trade. The same goes for NOx emissions. In the Netherlands the average EV is barely meeting the Euro6 standard when it comes to NOx emissions and more strict emission regulations are coming up for ICEs. SO2 and NOx are the emissions that make people sick and EVs put out more of these in areas where a significant portion of electricity is generated by coal. Currently the best option if you buy a new car is to get a hybrid. Low CO2 and toxic gas emissions.
* If coal power plants have to filter out all the SO2 then electricity would become way more expensive. The same for NOx.
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With an EV, you can reduce its emissions by installing your own solar power. Also, it would be interesting to find out what emissions the refinery puts out in the making of gasoline or diesel.
* If coal power plants have to filter out all the SO2 then electricity would become way more expensive. The same for NOx.
So then do that and the emissions of all the EVs will drop. Of course, that would also make them less competitive compared to hybrids.
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With an EV, you can reduce its emissions by installing your own solar power. Also, it would be interesting to find out what emissions the refinery puts out in the making of gasoline or diesel.
* If coal power plants have to filter out all the SO2 then electricity would become way more expensive. The same for NOx.
So then do that and the emissions of all the EVs will drop. Of course, that would also make them less competitive compared to hybrids.
Not quite because an EV needs a lot more materials to build which need to be mined and processed. This usually happens in countries with little or no regulations with great effect on the people's health over there. EVs are simply not the solution if you look at the big picture. Way too many downsides both from an environmental and logistics (material availability, infrastructure, costs, etc) point of view. China and Germany (where EV sales are next to zero) seem to have noticed these downsides and are currently giving hydrogen a huge boost. I estimate the chance that pure EVs will dissapear again in the next 10 years at 80% due to hydrogen and bio-fuels being better alternatives if you look at the big picture.
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are you crazy ?; why do you care? etc.. etc.. And they still use coal vastly for heating in the winter. Coal power plants have ways of reducing sulfur by combining it with another stuffs and get gypsum in the end.
Uuhmmm... no. In the EU fuel is free of sulfur (since 2015) but coal power plants are still emitting SO2 (*).
Citation?
I see that the EU mandated Euro-V/ULSD (limit of 10 parts per million sulfur, down from 50 ppm in Euro-IV standard) in 2009, but can't find any more recent 0 ppm reference.
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are you crazy ?; why do you care? etc.. etc.. And they still use coal vastly for heating in the winter. Coal power plants have ways of reducing sulfur by combining it with another stuffs and get gypsum in the end.
Uuhmmm... no. In the EU fuel is free of sulfur (since 2015) but coal power plants are still emitting SO2 (*).
Citation?
I see that the EU mandated Euro-V/ULSD (limit of 10 parts per million sulfur, down from 50 ppm in Euro-IV standard) in 2009, but can't find any more recent 0 ppm reference.
Quick Google: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-low-sulfur_diesel#European_Union (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-low-sulfur_diesel#European_Union) This says single digit ppm already in place before 2015.
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Right. So not zero. Therefore, a claim that coal-based electricity definitely has more sulfur emissions requires math to check the validity of.
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Not quite because an EV needs a lot more materials to build which need to be mined and processed. This usually happens in countries with little or no regulations with great effect on the people's health over there. EVs are simply not the solution if you look at the big picture. Way too many downsides both from an environmental and logistics (material availability, infrastructure, costs, etc) point of view. China and Germany (where EV sales are next to zero) seem to have noticed these downsides and are currently giving hydrogen a huge boost. I estimate the chance that pure EVs will dissapear again in the next 10 years at 80% due to hydrogen and bio-fuels being better alternatives if you look at the big picture.
I'm under the impression that making hydrogen is a lot less efficient than charging batteries, or have things changed? Also, fuel cells are still really expensive thanks to the exotic materials needed.
Biofuels would be a good idea if implemented well. In particular, biofuels from ocean algae would solve the water and land use problems.
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I've been struggling to find some hard numbers for sulphur dioxide emissions from UK electricity generation, accounting for our actual fuel mix. The numbers don't seem easily available but could be worked out from the known fuel mix and typical numbers for different generation types. Nor is it helpful that the office for national statistics lumps generation from pumped storage into an "oil and other fuels" category so it's hard to see how much, if any, heavy fuel oil is actually still burned (I suspect very little). If however we take a stab at it and say UK electricity SO2 is entirely dominated by the 5% of generation from coal, and that the coal used is 1% sulphur (the upper limit allowable in the UK for power generation), and that the scrubbers remove 90% which seems to be fairly typical for modern designs. One tonne of coal is about 24 GJ, at a typical 37% efficiency that's 8.9 GJ /2.47 MWh of electricity generated, with 10 kg of sulphur burned to 20 kg SO2, of which 90% is removed leaving 2 kg SO2.
My annual average in the Zoe is about 4 miles per kWh, so that tonne of coal and 2 kg SO2 would get me about 9900 miles. The UK grid is actually about 5% coal with the remainder largely negligible sulphur, so that 9900 miles would come closer to 100g SO2. If I drove that same distance in a diesel car at 50 mpg, that would be 900 litres / 765 kg of ultra low sulphur diesel. At 10 ppm sulphur (by weight?) that's about 15 grams of SO2. So, SO2 emissions for a diesel car burning 10ppm sulphur diesel *are* lower than for an EV charged from the UK grid, by a factor of around six (though please check my maths). That's not entirely surprising because modern diesel is very low sulphur, there is an open question as to what the public health implications are of a lesser amount being emitted on city streets versus a greater amount from a tall chimney.
I guess I should do the same calculation for nitrous oxides. Coal power station exhaust seems to be 1-5 ppm NOx which compares very favourably with 50-1000 ppm for diesel exhaust (I'm not sure why, perhaps the lower combustion pressure?) I am struggling to find a source for per-unit-energy numbers. I have seen a US paper claiming coal plants come in at 0.04 to 0.07 lb per million BTU, I guess that's BTU thermal not electrical. Can't see any numbers for natural gas (which will dominate UK electrical NOx emissions).
My suspicion is that piston engines generally and diesels in particular end up better than EVs on SO2 but much worse on NOx (and last time I did the calculation better but not hugely so on CO2). Just need to find some references for CCGT power station emissions to back that up.
Of course this was supposed to be the EV experiences thread where drivers discuss stuff related to EV use and ownership rather than the wider "EVs are good/bad/whatever" thread that we've already had so many of.
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Well, since pollution came up... In the NL NOx is a big thing at the moment. I looked up the number of NOx per kWh electricity builders have to use (IIRC around 275mg) to determine the NOx footprint of a project. From there it is quite easy to calculate the amount of NOx per km from an EV which shows an EV is at the euro6 limit. And ofcourse you shouldn't compare diesel. Diesel is dead anyway; all car manufacturers are abandoning diesel. However a modern hybrid on petrol like the Toyota Prius emits only several tens of mg of NOx per km. So it definitely is better to drive a modern hybrid than an EV in the Netherlands.
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Very complex problem with many things to consider. I am on the opinion that the air is shared and if one country tries to go more clean and yet in few hundred km away in another country is pure anarchy and that takes away from the idea.
The bio fuels are crap .. In industrialized world every step in manufacturing of that fuel is already fossil fuel in it and the land needed for that mass scale will be huge.. There will be no forest left.
About the diesel .. Is the same as above .. Another country - still going strong for decades. The winds can blow in any direction .. Remember Chernobyl
Edit: The mass of the people dictates the trends and the same people are with not very conscientious
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The bio fuels are crap .. In industrialized world every step in manufacturing of that fuel is already fossil fuel in it and the land needed for that mass scale will be huge.. There will be no forest left.
Not quite. There are several companies making 3rd generation bio-fuels from agricultural leftovers. There are several factories running to do this on an industrial scale using leftovers from corn in the US for about 2 years already. Instead of needing extra land more of the plants grown for food can be used so in the end the land is used more efficiently. The EPA (the US government's energy department) expects to be able to double the ethanol production in the US while using no extra land at all. It is not there yet because more factories need to be build but the potential is huge. Most of the plants we eat grow in a single year so the CO2 cycle time is very short and since everyone has to eat anyway there is large supply of feedstock to make bio-fuel from. Currently most of the agricultural leftovers are left to rot which is a waste.
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I do not fully explain what i have in mind. To all fuel to go bio, all cars, buses, trucks, etc .. No just few % as is now.
Rotting is good, it is restocking the soil . Too much artificial staff in huge scale like that will collapse everything like house of cards . And for what - to drive cars
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I do not fully explain what i have in mind. To all fuel to go bio, all cars, buses, trucks, etc .. No just few % as is now.
Use of bio-fuel has been increasing steadily over the past decades. At this point there needs to be a change to more sustainable bio-fuels. The EU is going to ban (or already banning) bio-fuels from palm oil for starters. Such a ban needs to be planned because the downside is that a lot of palm-oil farmers in poor countries will be put out of business. But there will also be a need to use cars with a lowel fuel consumption. Which is something the EU already demands from the car manufacturers.
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The EU is going to ban (or already banning) bio-fuels from palm oil for starters. Such a ban needs to be planned because the downside is that a lot of palm-oil farmers in poor countries will be put out of business.
Putting them out of business IS the plan.
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The EU is going to ban (or already banning) bio-fuels from palm oil for starters. Such a ban needs to be planned because the downside is that a lot of palm-oil farmers in poor countries will be put out of business.
Putting them out of business IS the plan.
In a sense that is true but AFAIK the idea is to have these farmers transition towards other crops which takes time. Ofcourse there will be farmers who are too set in their ways, don't make the change and then complain loudly about how they are being put out of business.
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Can we please try and keep this thread on topic "ELECTRIC CAR EXPERIENCES"
Arguing about hypotheticals, and not having any experience, is most certainly off-topic.
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To go back on topic :
I recently upgraded my EV charging at home from 12A Schucko to 32A/1phase/230V CEE blue single, with the Tesla EVSE.
I found out that, while it´s nice to charge faster, I also have more copper losses, due to long cables in my house.
(0.44 Ohm total source impedance at the car integrated charger input for a 32A load)
-> now I reduced the charging setting to 16A for 95% of the nights -> 24 km/h, which gives me 240km range for a 10-hour night.
And of course, if ever I arrive home very low, and really need the full range the next day, I can still temporarily set 32A charging.
[attachimg=1]
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Long distance trip in a Tesla Model 3:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD8EHxzy820 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD8EHxzy820)
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I am on my second Chevy Volt. It's the perfect car to transition from ICE to EV. In the summer I get 75 miles on battery which is more than enough for regular trips.
I have a friend who was looking for an ICE car 6 months ago. No interest in EV. Told him to look at a Volt and he bought one.
I will NEVER buy an ICE vehicle again.
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We continue the conversations here?
To check it out, I bought me an EV, and when the time came to renew the family fleet I bought two brand new turbo diesel SUVs, because deep in my heart I'm a greenie.
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We continue the conversations here?
To check it out, I bought me an EV, and when the time came to renew the family fleet, I bought two brand new turbo diesel SUVs, because deep in my heart I'm a greenie.
Oh no, now you are in the thread spreading lies? We can't believe anything you say. In the other thread all you did was promote you anti-science agenda. And now you are doing it here as well?
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Oh no, now you are in the thread spreading lies?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/renewable-energy/electric-car-experiences/msg1815995/#msg1815995 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/renewable-energy/electric-car-experiences/msg1815995/#msg1815995)
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Oh no, now you are in the thread spreading lies?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/renewable-energy/electric-car-experiences/msg1815995/#msg1815995 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/renewable-energy/electric-car-experiences/msg1815995/#msg1815995)
Yes, look at the link you provided. It's to a guy that uses 2 fake names who is says that the Earth is flat, 5G is being used to spread covid and the Chinese created corona-19 virus to control the population of the world.
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Yes, look at the link you provided. It's to a guy that uses 2 fake names who is says that the Earth is flat, 5G is being used to spread covid and the Chinese created corona-19 virus to control the population of the world.
Get well soon.
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Can we keep this thread to the original topic please guys. EV users experiences not wider debates about EVs, global warming, hydrogen fuels, etc. which we've had endlessly on other threads - that's been done to death.
:)
I'm starting this off as a new topic for those interested in discussions around the viability of owning and operating electric vehicles.
Experiences such as range, charging solutions, real-world economics, idiosyncrasies of your vehcile and more
For myself, I drive a new VW eGolf, and it's been great so far (other than a flat tire). Economy is amazing, about 14kWh/100k out of the battery, call it 16kWh when you consider charging efficiency.
Anyone else want to add their experiences with their electric (or PHEV) ?
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This morning's good news is that plugshare is coming out with Android Auto support
However, to update; We just did a longish trip in the EV (700km ea way), and it all went well. Certainly charging every 200km is a little annoying, but our country/province has good infrastructure, and it's certainly doable. As the battery heats up, the battery management slows down the charge rate, so that last charge on the way home seemed to take forever.
Was it as fast as doing it in an ICE car? No
Was it cheaper than doing it in an ICE car? Yes
Given the EV is mostly used for in-city, and short (<200km) trips, it's still a great car for us.
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How long were your charging stops?
Did you have to wait for any chargers?
What kind of car was it?
Thanks
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This morning's good news is that plugshare is coming out with Android Auto support
However, to update; We just did a longish trip in the EV (700km ea way), and it all went well. Certainly charging every 200km is a little annoying, but our country/province has good infrastructure, and it's certainly doable. As the battery heats up, the battery management slows down the charge rate, so that last charge on the way home seemed to take forever.
Was it as fast as doing it in an ICE car? No
Was it cheaper than doing it in an ICE car? Yes
Given the EV is mostly used for in-city, and short (<200km) trips, it's still a great car for us.
...and how much fun was it? You could see doing the trip in a supercharged musclecar at 20 miles per gallon, and still feeling it was worth it!
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This morning's good news is that plugshare is coming out with Android Auto support
However, to update; We just did a longish trip in the EV (700km ea way), and it all went well. Certainly charging every 200km is a little annoying, but our country/province has good infrastructure, and it's certainly doable. As the battery heats up, the battery management slows down the charge rate, so that last charge on the way home seemed to take forever.
Was it as fast as doing it in an ICE car? No
Was it cheaper than doing it in an ICE car? Yes
Given the EV is mostly used for in-city, and short (<200km) trips, it's still a great car for us.
...and how much fun was it? You could see doing the trip in a supercharged musclecar at 20 miles per gallon, and still feeling it was worth it!
I don't think so. EVs are so much more fun to drive then musclecars. (And I've owned a musclecars.) It's a lot of fun to take on a musclecar. EVs make very little noise. And when the light turns green, you can beat a muscle car every time. I always laugh at musclecar owners. Depending on the engine a stock musclecar can burn through a gallon of gas in 45 seconds. That's almost $4.50 in California. It's costs me about $0.50, and I typically win.
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This morning's good news is that plugshare is coming out with Android Auto support
However, to update; We just did a longish trip in the EV (700km ea way), and it all went well. Certainly charging every 200km is a little annoying, but our country/province has good infrastructure, and it's certainly doable. As the battery heats up, the battery management slows down the charge rate, so that last charge on the way home seemed to take forever.
Was it as fast as doing it in an ICE car? No
Was it cheaper than doing it in an ICE car? Yes
Given the EV is mostly used for in-city, and short (<200km) trips, it's still a great car for us.
...and how much fun was it? You could see doing the trip in a supercharged musclecar at 20 miles per gallon, and still feeling it was worth it!
As Doug pointed out, even a low powered EV like mine (100kW / 136hp) is pretty damn nippy off the line, and can gobble up unsuspecting ICE cars.
However, the comfort of it makes it all worth while. The last muscle car I drove (VW eGolf was getting a ding taken out of the hood from a falling branch) was a rental, a 2019 Dodge Charger turbo V6, it got 14l/100km on my highway commute, and was HORRIBLY loud, rumbly and rough. How people drive them day in and day out is beyond me.
1400km @ 14l / 100km = 196 litres @ C$1.25/litre
No thanks, I'm good with the EV thank you.
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However, to update; We just did a longish trip in the EV (700km ea way), and it all went well. Certainly charging every 200km is a little annoying, but our country/province has good infrastructure, and it's certainly doable. As the battery heats up, the battery management slows down the charge rate, so that last charge on the way home seemed to take forever.
IOW a pain in the ass :-)
How many km and kWh in total ?
And how many hours total wasted watching it recharge?
a 2019 Dodge Charger turbo V6, it got 14l/100km
In that sense american cars have always been a joke. Any turbo diesel would have done it with 5.x l/100km, and the A/C in MAX.
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However, to update; We just did a longish trip in the EV (700km ea way), and it all went well. Certainly charging every 200km is a little annoying, but our country/province has good infrastructure, and it's certainly doable. As the battery heats up, the battery management slows down the charge rate, so that last charge on the way home seemed to take forever.
IOW a pain in the ass :-)
How many km and kWh in total ?
And how many hours total wasted watching it recharge?
a 2019 Dodge Charger turbo V6, it got 14l/100km
In that sense american cars have always been a joke. Any turbo diesel would have done it with 5.x l/100km, and the A/C in MAX.
Dude you are trolling without understanding what’s already been stated. There’s a reason they don’t use diesel in muscle cares. It was already stated charging was a minor inconvience.
So why are you trolling and making shit up again?
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Dude you are trolling without understanding what’s already been stated. There’s a reason they don’t use diesel in muscle cares. It was already stated charging was a minor inconvience.
So why are you trolling and making shit up again?
Mussel cares are a joke. A diesel does almost 200 km on reserve :-)
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Cars have different purposes and special skills.
E.g. one could own a muscle car (maybe an older one, saved from the bone yard so you are being green) as well as a modern EV. Or a motorcycle and an EV. etc
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Mussel cares are a joke. A diesel does almost 200 km on reserve :-)
I guess mussel cars are just made for shellfish people who don't care about the environment.
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Mussel cares are a joke. A diesel does almost 200 km on reserve :-)
I guess mussel cars are just made for shellfish people who don't care about the environment.
And I think a nice round of fish slapping would be in order for them... :-DD
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E.g. one could own a muscle car (maybe an older one, saved from the bone yard so you are being green)
I'm sure no Musk-eteer would agree. Deep in my heart I'm a greenie ( hence the V8 in my garage ).
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Mussel cares are a joke. A diesel does almost 200 km on reserve :-)
I guess mussel cars are just made for shellfish people who don't care about the environment.
Mussel cares are for shellfish people.
Now I know you are a troll.
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This is an EV I like. With swappable batteries!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=809QHX_Brus (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=809QHX_Brus)
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This is an EV I like. With swappable batteries!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=809QHX_Brus (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=809QHX_Brus)
I thought you like mussel diesel cars.
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Even my 100 hp Golf GTE in pure electric mode, destroys most ICE cars off the line. It is so much fun to drive around just on electric. Sadly the reliability of the GTE has been less than stellar.
Seriously considering the quirky Kia Soul EV as my next car, but not so cool is that it is a CUV/SUV.
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Even my 100 hp Golf GTE in pure electric mode, destroys most ICE cars off the line. It is so much fun to drive around just on electric. Sadly the reliability of the GTE has been less than stellar.
Seriously considering the quirky Kia Soul EV as my next car, but not so cool is that it is a CUV/SUV.
In the US VWs was on of the most popular brands of cars. I a VW loyalist. But then the quality of VW really started to decline. Had two duds. They Dieselgate hit, don't think I would ever buy a VW ever again. I just don't trust them.
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In the US VWs was on of the most popular brands of cars. I a VW loyalist. But then the quality of VW really started to decline. Had two duds. They Dieselgate hit, don't think I would ever buy a VW ever again. I just don't trust them.
Right now VW are clearly eager to get the ID3 out the door, and try to move on from dieselgate, but the whole thing seems to be turning into a farce of endless delays.
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In the US VWs was on of the most popular brands of cars. I a VW loyalist. But then the quality of VW really started to decline. Had two duds. They Dieselgate hit, don't think I would ever buy a VW ever again. I just don't trust them.
Right now VW are clearly eager to get the ID3 out the door, and try to move on from dieselgate, but the whole thing seems to be turning into a farce of endless delays.
I seem to recall VW saying around the time of Dieselgate that they wanted to be the world's biggest car company. (Not sure where they stand now.)
And then last year the new pres of Ford said Ford wanted to be known as a technology company like Tesla. The plan was to have VW make all of Ford's cars with the exception of the Mustang and their trucks. That was then, wonder if that's still the plan.
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Right now VW are clearly eager to get the ID3 out the door, and try to move on from dieselgate, but the whole thing seems to be turning into a farce of endless delays.
People want a car that's better not worse, ergo people don't want EVs.
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Right now VW are clearly eager to get the ID3 out the door, and try to move on from dieselgate, but the whole thing seems to be turning into a farce of endless delays.
People want a car that's better not worse, ergo people don't want EVs.
A plug-in hybrid is a viable option, in my view, even if you're worried about long distance performance, or performance far away from grid power.
And of course Tesla has already demonstrated that you can have insane performance from an EV, enough to destroy most (but not all!) muscle cars.
Hard to beat the sound of a V8 with a supercharger putting its heart into it, though...
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Right now VW are clearly eager to get the ID3 out the door, and try to move on from dieselgate, but the whole thing seems to be turning into a farce of endless delays.
People want a car that's better not worse, ergo people don't want EVs.
Kanka, you are such a troll. Just a few posts ago you were telling us which electric car you wanted. They you posted you have a mussel diesel car. I eat mussels in my EV car.
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The ID3 looks pretty good as a technology package. But:
- It's pretty ugly. The Golf Mk7 is a good looking car and Mk7.5 subtlety improved on top of this. ID3 and Golf Mk8 look like they've been involved in a front end collision. :palm:
- Bad idea to cap the charging rate with model. 48kWh only has 50kW charge rate but 58kWh has 100kW, arguably the 48kWh would benefit *more* from the 100kW charge rate. The charge rate is also seriously lagging behind the competition with Model 3 at 250kW and the £22,000 MG ZS EV offers 90kW. And e-Golf offers 45kW so basic ID3 is barely any better there.
- Steering wheel has capacitive controls. The purpose of steering wheel controls is so that you can use them -without- looking. Making them fully capacitive completely defeats the tactile feel here. Big mistake IMO. Also, you can no longer program a cruise control speed +/-1mph or +/-1km/h using the SET/RES buttons -- no idea why they deleted this!
Why did they not just offer an improved e-Golf? People don't want a silly electric car with obnoxious "I'm electric!" styling - they just want a good car that *happens* to be electric. That's why Model 3 and Model S sold well, and Hyundai Kona/Kia e-Niro is one of the best selling non-Tesla EVs ... they look like *regular* cars!
One of the things I really like about my GTE is that it is very understated. It doesn't look like it has 200 hp ...
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People want a car that's better not worse, ergo people don't want EVs.
A plug-in hybrid is a viable option, in my view, even if you're worried about long distance performance, or performance far away from grid power.
And of course Tesla has already demonstrated that you can have insane performance from an EV, enough to destroy most (but not all!) muscle cars.
Hard to beat the sound of a V8 with a supercharger putting its heart into it, though...
People don't like the price, don't like the limited range, and don't want to wait hours to recharge. They like the torque of course. I do too!
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Just a few posts ago you were telling us which electric car you wanted.
Have you seen the vidjeo? Don't you like that SUV? True leather not the synthetic rubbish. Half the price of a model X. And don't you like the swap-able battery? Fully charged in 3 minutes !!!
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People want a car that's better not worse, ergo people don't want EVs.
A plug-in hybrid is a viable option, in my view, even if you're worried about long distance performance, or performance far away from grid power.
And of course Tesla has already demonstrated that you can have insane performance from an EV, enough to destroy most (but not all!) muscle cars.
Hard to beat the sound of a V8 with a supercharger putting its heart into it, though...
People don't like the price, don't like the limited range, and don't want to wait hours to recharge. They like the torque of course. I do too!
Trolling again. Get your facts straight. Apparently people do like the prices and the product, that's why Tesla is not out of business. You could also look at Tesla's stock prices and compare that to Ford, GM, VW. People have to like something if Tesla's stock is valued as much as it is.
And here you go again with your conspiracy theories and fake facts. It doesn't take HOURS as you say to charge a Tesla.
Please stop with the fake and false information.
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Just a few posts ago you were telling us which electric car you wanted.
Have you seen the vidjeo? Don't you like that SUV? True leather not the synthetic rubbish. Half the price of a model X. And don't you like the swap-able battery? Fully charged in 3 minutes !!!
You just said it was hours, now you are saying three minutes. Kanka, you are saçma. Stop the trolling, you are ruin the posts for everyone else.
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Ohh yes I bet it took @boffin hours of waiting to recharge that tiny battery every hundred-something kilometers in that long trip. Yeah. Literally. HOURS.
You just said it was hours, now you are saying three minutes.
You don't know what a battery swap is, do you? Sheesh, you know ~ nothing, it seems.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTsrDpsYHrw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTsrDpsYHrw)
Apparently people do like the prices and the product, that's why Tesla is not out of business. You could also look at Tesla's stock prices and compare that to Ford, GM, VW. People have to like something if Tesla's stock is valued as much as it is.
You seem to forget (conveniently) that for every (new) EV more than a hundred (new) ICEs are sold. Thousands if you count the 2nd hand sales too. IOW, maybe 0.5% of the people prefer an EV. LOL.
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Right now VW are clearly eager to get the ID3 out the door, and try to move on from dieselgate, but the whole thing seems to be turning into a farce of endless delays.
People want a car that's better not worse, ergo people don't want EVs.
A plug-in hybrid is a viable option, in my view, even if you're worried about long distance performance, or performance far away from grid power.
And of course Tesla has already demonstrated that you can have insane performance from an EV, enough to destroy most (but not all!) muscle cars.
Hard to beat the sound of a V8 with a supercharger putting its heart into it, though...
I like my PHEV. Most of the time I use electric but cross country gas.
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Fun fact, after the original Roadster was launched Elon did talk about Tesla launching a PHEV as their first car.
Fisker beat them to it with the Karma (whom Tesla had contracted initially to design a PHEV), and Chevy/GM talked about making one too (which would later become the Volt) ... so Elon decided that a full BEV would be a good idea.
And that was the right decision. PHEVs are great for what they are but unless you fit into their narrow band of usage, they aren't a long term solution. But in the short term for reducing fuel consumption they represent a good vehicle. I would personally like to see more PHEVs with a 50 mile real world range. The existing PHEVs are around 20-25 miles, which means that they can usually only fit a short commute in.
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Trolling again. Get your facts straight. Apparently people do like the prices and the product, that's why Tesla is not out of business.
I wouldn't read too much into Tesla's sales right now. Many people are buying a Tesla as more of a status symbol than a means of transport, but that doesn't scale beyond a certain point. For comparison, in the early 90s, when the original Lexus was launched it wouldn't sell in Hong Kong. Public transport in HK is excellent, and even very high income people use it. The car market in Hong Kong is basically split in 2 - economical Japanese cars for the people who really need personal transport, and luxury European cars as status symbols. The Lexus was just too cheap to sell against the Europeans, and struggled until they put the price up. Status symbol markets can be weird.
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Fun fact, after the original Roadster was launched Elon did talk about Tesla launching a PHEV as their first car.
Fisker beat them to it with the Karma (whom Tesla had contracted initially to design a PHEV), and Chevy/GM talked about making one too (which would later become the Volt) ... so Elon decided that a full BEV would be a good idea.
And that was the right decision. PHEVs are great for what they are but unless you fit into their narrow band of usage, they aren't a long term solution. But in the short term for reducing fuel consumption they represent a good vehicle. I would personally like to see more PHEVs with a 50 mile real world range. The existing PHEVs are around 20-25 miles, which means that they can usually only fit a short commute in.
Agree, a 50-100 mile range PHEV would be a winner. But, just to get to 20-25 miles, we need a 3.3KW charger running overnight... which is already more than e.g. a standard US wall outlet can provide.
So, the 20-25 mile range models is the "lowest cost realistic option" and does buy you something significant.
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Trolling again. Get your facts straight. Apparently people do like the prices and the product, that's why Tesla is not out of business.
I wouldn't read too much into Tesla's sales right now. Many people are buying a Tesla as more of a status symbol than a means of transport, but that doesn't scale beyond a certain point. For comparison, in the early 90s, when the original Lexus was launched it wouldn't sell in Hong Kong. Public transport in HK is excellent, and even very high income people use it. The car market in Hong Kong is basically split in 2 - economical Japanese cars for the people who really need personal transport, and luxury European cars as status symbols. The Lexus was just too cheap to sell against the Europeans, and struggled until they put the price up. Status symbol markets can be weird.
Known as the 'Veblen effect' in economics, it is used all over the place.
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There is some influence on Tesla sales because they only attract 2% company car tax in the UK (actually 0% and 1% for the first two years, then 2% until 2025). Which makes them very, very cheap to lease. Around £250 per month. Seriously tempted myself to replace the Golf with a Tesla Model 3 ...
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Fun fact, after the original Roadster was launched Elon did talk about Tesla launching a PHEV as their first car.
Fisker beat them to it with the Karma (whom Tesla had contracted initially to design a PHEV), and Chevy/GM talked about making one too (which would later become the Volt) ... so Elon decided that a full BEV would be a good idea.
And that was the right decision. PHEVs are great for what they are but unless you fit into their narrow band of usage, they aren't a long term solution. But in the short term for reducing fuel consumption they represent a good vehicle. I would personally like to see more PHEVs with a 50 mile real world range. The existing PHEVs are around 20-25 miles, which means that they can usually only fit a short commute in.
I am on my second Volt. Very pleased. We get 60-70 mile on electric during the summer and 35-40 in the winter months. PHEV is the way to go right now. Can drive around on battery in town for months without using gas at all. Need to drive for SF to LA or Lake Tahoe, 50 miles electric than the rest is gas. No waiting for battery swaps or charging. Best of both worlds. I plan on buying another Volt.
Agree, a 50-100 mile range PHEV would be a winner. But, just to get to 20-25 miles, we need a 3.3KW charger running overnight... which is already more than e.g. a standard US wall outlet can provide.
So, the 20-25 mile range models is the "lowest cost realistic option" and does buy you something significant.
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Agree, a 50-100 mile range PHEV would be a winner. But, just to get to 20-25 miles, we need a 3.3KW charger running overnight... which is already more than e.g. a standard US wall outlet can provide.
So, the 20-25 mile range models is the "lowest cost realistic option" and does buy you something significant.
Assuming 4 miles per kWh, 24 miles needs 6 kWh, call it 7 kWh with charging losses. I don't see how you get 3.3 kW charging required for that unless your nights are under 3 hours long. Even the crummiest US supply could put 12 kWh (so around 50 miles) or so in overnight, plus of course someone buying a new car can probably afford a more sensible charging arrangement - how many tanks of gas does it take to cover the cost of a charger install?
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Agree, a 50-100 mile range PHEV would be a winner. But, just to get to 20-25 miles, we need a 3.3KW charger running overnight... which is already more than e.g. a standard US wall outlet can provide.
So, the 20-25 mile range models is the "lowest cost realistic option" and does buy you something significant.
Assuming 4 miles per kWh, 24 miles needs 6 kWh, call it 7 kWh with charging losses. I don't see how you get 3.3 kW charging required for that unless your nights are under 3 hours long. Even the crummiest US supply could put 12 kWh (so around 50 miles) or so in overnight, plus of course someone buying a new car can probably afford a more sensible charging arrangement - how many tanks of gas does it take to cover the cost of a charger install?
You are correct, remember that's a based on a standard American 120 vac outlet. Most people in the US who get an EV install a 240 vac outlet. Charge tine for our Volt at 240 is about 3.5 hrs for 65 miles in the summer or 40 in the winter. If we charge at 120 volts we have the choice at charging at 8 amps or 12 amps. At 8 amps we can't get a full charge. At 12 amps it takes 6 - 7 hours.
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Agree, a 50-100 mile range PHEV would be a winner. But, just to get to 20-25 miles, we need a 3.3KW charger running overnight... which is already more than e.g. a standard US wall outlet can provide.
So, the 20-25 mile range models is the "lowest cost realistic option" and does b(1uy you something significant.
Overnight (12 hrs) @ 3.3kw is more than enough to completely fill my 225km range egolf. (that's somewhat more 20-25 miles)
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You seem to forget (conveniently) that for every (new) EV more than a hundred (new) ICEs are sold. Thousands if you count the 2nd hand sales too. IOW, maybe 0.5% of the people prefer an EV. LOL.
Making up numbers again???
Locally:
"In the first nine months of 2019, EV sales have made up 9% of all light-duty vehicle sales in the province"
https://news.gov.bc.ca/releases/2019EMPR0111-002292 (https://news.gov.bc.ca/releases/2019EMPR0111-002292)
Globally:
Electric cars, which accounted for 2.6% of global car sales
https://www.iea.org/reports/global-ev-outlook-2020 (https://www.iea.org/reports/global-ev-outlook-2020)
but when have facts stopped you in the past.
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Those numbers include hybrids which are ICEs. Look up pure EV numbers my friend. And don't forget to count 2nd hand car sales too.
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Those numbers include hybrids which are ICEs. Look up pure EV numbers my friend. And don't forget to count 2nd hand car sales too.
Dude I looked them up as you asked only to find you lied as you commonly do. Why do you lie and present false information?
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Google is your friend.
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Ohh yes I bet it took @boffin hours of waiting to recharge that tiny battery every hundred-something kilometers in that long trip. Yeah. Literally. HOURS.
You just said it was hours, now you are saying three minutes.
You don't know what a battery swap is, do you? Sheesh, you know ~ nothing, it seems.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTsrDpsYHrw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTsrDpsYHrw)
I really like the concept of (semi?) automated battery swap technology - it seems like the only practical method of getting a full charge of energy into an EV in a realistic 'drive-in, drive out' time and without trashing the battery with ultra mega charge rates (I think there are warranty issues with Tesla if you always use the service station high speed chargers).
The only issue I can see is going in with a brand new battery and coming our with a 10yr old one, but it's probably not beyond the wit of mankind to solve that one, weed out EOL batteries at the swap station for recycling and slowly feeding in new stock from the manufacturer. etc.
Standardisation between manufacturers would be absolutely key however - but hey, they all want the best battery technology so maybe they can (maybe painfully) agree on separating the battery pack manufacturers away from the car manufacturers and each do what they do best.
The idea of having dedicated Tesla chargers at service stations that only support Teslas, for instance, isn't a long term supportable model - what if every car manufacturer wants to demand space for their own dedicated charging bays. :-\
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Google is your friend.
But you have to understand what you have found. In your case you find false and inaccurate information. When you do provide a link it is to conspiracy theorists made-up information.
Try getting an education.... It will be your bast friend for a lifetime.
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Ohh yes I bet it took @boffin hours of waiting to recharge that tiny battery every hundred-something kilometers in that long trip. Yeah. Literally. HOURS.
You just said it was hours, now you are saying three minutes.
You don't know what a battery swap is, do you? Sheesh, you know ~ nothing, it seems.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTsrDpsYHrw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTsrDpsYHrw)
I really like the concept of (semi?) automated battery swap technology - it seems like the only practical method of getting a full charge of energy into an EV in a realistic 'drive-in, drive out' time and without trashing the battery with ultra mega charge rates (I think there are warranty issues with Tesla if you always use the service station high speed chargers).
The only issue I can see is going in with a brand new battery and coming our with a 10yr old one, but it's probably not beyond the wit of mankind to solve that one, weed out EOL batteries at the swap station for recycling and slowly feeding in new stock from the manufacturer. etc.
Standardisation between manufacturers would be absolutely key however - but hey, they all want the best battery technology so maybe they can (maybe painfully) agree on separating the battery pack manufacturers away from the car manufacturers and each do what they do best.
The idea of having dedicated Tesla chargers at service stations that only support Teslas, for instance, isn't a long term supportable model - what if every car manufacturer wants to demand space for their own dedicated charging bays. :-\
Something we a.ready have with iCE vehicles. Most fueling stations have three grades of gas and diesel. I have been at charging stations which have Tesla and J1772 charging heads. One can get adaptors to convert tbetween the charging heads so it is not a problem.
As for battery swaps, we are doing something similar now with propane tanks. When the tank is empty you take it back to the store and get full one in a tank that might be a week or 5 years old. What counts is the amount of energy stored in the battery, bot the age of it. It could easily be monitored and metered. When you get a battery swap you are paying for the energy not the battery.
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Really CCS is pretty close to a uniform standard, at least within Europe. Any CCS car can charge at any CCS station, including Tesla. Theoretically, non-Tesla EVs could use CCS Tesla superchargers but they are locked out. Tesla have talked about unlocking this but I think they would have a serious capacity overload.
I think the problem is that with EVs and swapping, battery packs tend to be highly integrated into the chassis and are therefore custom engineered for at least each platform of vehicles. It's possible to imagine a universal battery pack but it would require some seriously consistent standardisation here, and at least three or four size grades of battery. Then not clear what you specify the packs as - are they all going to support fast charging? All going to support 300kW peak discharge for performance vehicles? Will they all have similar capacity and degradation profiles? Do you own your battery and have to collect the old one on the way back, or is it leased/rented to you?
I could see battery swapping working for uniform platforms e.g. vans/taxicabs, where vehicles can be easily standardised, but when you can currently buy an EV from the size of the Smart fortwo all the way up to an e-Tron/Model X, you're going to struggle to make a standard platform.
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Two standard sizes, big and small. Sorted!
But, for the same reason that not two cars have the same water pump, oil pump, disk brake rotors, alternator, wheel no. of bores and spacing, etc. etc., I reckon it's not going to happen anytime soon.
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Maybe we should all just buy Mercedes AA Class ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEjTwsfqHOY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEjTwsfqHOY)
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You seem to forget (conveniently) that for every (new) EV more than a hundred (new) ICEs are sold.
Those numbers include hybrids which are ICEs. Look up pure EV numbers my friend. And don't forget to count 2nd hand car sales too.
Why would I include used vehicles, that's not what YOU were talking about.
However, as the thread is about "Electric Car Experiences", can I suggest you stick to the topic
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Can we get GeorgeOfTheJungle banned? He provides fake, false and misleading information. He promotes conspiracy theories. Nothing he posts is of any value and he always changing his position on a topic to hijack the thread.
He’s been politely asked to stay on topic, but he doesn’t. He’s always hi-jacking threads in an attempt to make them controversial. He has ruined many a post and thread for all of us.
Time to get Dave involved to get hime banned.
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Easy enough to ignore trolls. They tend to go away when you do that ...
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Electric car experiences:
news that make you really smile in the morning: Germany had 5,3% of EVs sold in July. Our community is growing explosively !! Many new ffriends on the road.
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/verkehr/elektroauto-neuzulassungen-deutschland-juli-gesamtjahr-2020/ (https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/verkehr/elektroauto-neuzulassungen-deutschland-juli-gesamtjahr-2020/)
And it's going towards 10% end of the year.
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Owned a secondhand 2018 BMW i3 94Ah for a year now, done about 50000km total. Primary used for work commute, but we've taken it on vacation during summer and up in the mountains during winter and -20C without issues.
Range is as expected, and good enough for us. Battery health is quite good, but I guess that's to be expected. Girlfriend especially enjoys charging at home, much less hassle than having to visit gas stations on a regular basis. Also the excellent turn radius is very welcome, makes for much more enjoyable city driving and parking.
Automatic cruise control is good when it works, but has a few annoying limitations causing it to cut off frequently in certain situations, like entering and exiting tunnels.
So far rather happy with it overall, though not having roof rack nor towbar is a bit more restrictive than we expected. No kids, if we get one this will be car #2 pretty quickly I guess, as it has limited space for luggage if you need the back seats. But we knew this so not a surprise. Given the uncertainty of resale value and general shift in market we didn't want to invest a lot in a car right now.
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Like @aheid we've been an EV family for coming up to a year, with a Model 3 SR+. The experience has been simply outstanding. It was a big risk I thought buying not only without a test drive but also an american car after years of relatively trouble-free Honda ownership, in a family that mostly owns Toyotas.
Longest day trip so far was 760km but planning some longer ones in the school holiday coming up, and looking forward to post-plague times when we can do some more interstate travelling. It's my daily commuter so it's done everything including hauling bags of soil and office furniture. Im certainly not missing servicing it and the one-foot driving experience is great fun.
Now we can't stretch to replacing our diesel 2nd car with something new so watching for 2nd hand EVs which aren't terribly common, and choices aren't great just yet. Even considering a Japanese 2nd hand import. Either way, we'll not be buying ICE again.
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Two standard sizes, big and small. Sorted!
But, for the same reason that not two cars have the same water pump, oil pump, disk brake rotors, alternator, wheel no. of bores and spacing, etc. etc., I reckon it's not going to happen anytime soon.
In fact, a lot of cars do have many of those things.
Not so much as back in the day, though, when many Brit cars had parts which were interchangeable, not only between different brands from the same parent company, but between totally different companies.
The USA were similar, & in Oz, it was hard to tell the difference between starters & alternators used by Holden, Ford, Chrysler, & even Renault.
My "Australianised" Renault R12 also used the same distributor contacts as a Holden------very convenient!
The crankshaft bearing shell kit for my Leyland P76 was marked "GM or similar".
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Either way, we'll not be buying ICE again.
Yep, we've been saying the same thing. It's a lot of little things for us, like the significantly reduced noise, one-pedal driving and convenience of being able to charge at home. Of course it helps that our electricity prices are such that home charging is a lot cheaper than gas, but I think even with equal "fuel price" we wouldn't consider an ICE again.
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Two standard sizes, big and small. Sorted!
But, for the same reason that not two cars have the same water pump, oil pump, disk brake rotors, alternator, wheel no. of bores and spacing, etc. etc., I reckon it's not going to happen anytime soon.
In fact, a lot of cars do have many of those things.
Not so much as back in the day, though, when many Brit cars had parts which were interchangeable, not only between different brands from the same parent company, but between totally different companies.
The USA were similar, & in Oz, it was hard to tell the difference between starters & alternators used by Holden, Ford, Chrysler, & even Renault.
My "Australianised" Renault R12 also used the same distributor contacts as a Holden------very convenient!
The crankshaft bearing shell kit for my Leyland P76 was marked "GM or similar".
a cheap EV battery swap design could work like this.
designed to fit under a front wheel drive electric vehicle between the rear wheels. the rear bumper bar would swing up in theory, for access.
like a flat filing cabinet drawer, allowing complete battery drawer access by way of a type of modified pallet jack.
no raised level platform needed, different battery capacitys could be used on the same EV.
so in theory it be possible to battery swap at home. a raised level automated platform can do the same job.
as a manual battery swap. you have a choice with this EV design.
here is what I think about how a pallet jack battery swap EV design would look like. see abstract image
small auxiliary battery remains in the EV to run the automatic coupler from the vehicle side.
plug in the battery without touching high voltage connectors.
see how electric bus line automatic couplers are used on railways.
do you think this will work? or is a better battery swap design.
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Unless we get a significant increase in battery capacity (like 2x) I don't think a quick-swap battery system like that will be feasible. It'll waste too much space and restrict car design significantly to be competitive with non-swappable cars. Especially now that we got 150A chargers and such.
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Had this same conversation last week with a friend of mine. This will not work. You are not considering several key pieces of engineering.
1 - How do you ensure the safety of the people when changing the high voltage leads?
2 - What about the coolant lines and levels? How are you quickly going to be able to disconnect and reconnect without leaking and without losing coolant every time there is A battery swap?
3 - The framing for the battery housing is part of the frame for the car. Making it removable means you have just eliminated part of the car’s frame. You would need to add non-removable framing which adds weight to the car and would weaken the overall design of the car.
Lastly, how are you going to do all of this in less time than a supper charger can recharge the batteries?
Take a look at the Sandy Murano videos on EV batteries and EV car frame design and you will get an idea of just how impractical this would be. And the great lengths EV manufactures go through to reduce weight.
His videos on the design and engineering of EV cars is very interesting. Take a look to get an appreciation for challenges EV car manufactures faced and the brilliant solutions they came up with. It’s very impressive.
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Points in order
1 - Careful connector design and someway of ensuring that there is no current flow when disconnecting.
2 - there are connectors that will automatically seal when disconnected so there would be no leak
3 - Ensure the car will not fall apart with the pack removed.
Tesla did demo a battery swap station for the Model S. I believe it was actually deployed but it was not used enough. This is why the later cars have the battery more integrated into the car. See https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/videos/battery-swap-event (https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/videos/battery-swap-event) for the demo.
I can understand why it was not popular. As I own the battery in my car I know I am taking care of it - swapping out batteries would not be sure how well maintained the replacement battery had been. If I rented the battery I would be more open swapping.
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So if Elon was demoting the technology 7 years ago what happened? Why was it abandoned?
My guess is for the reasons I gave and several more. After seeing how the battery swap was done I think there is an added costs which would make it much too costly.
The Sandy Murano videos where he tears apart Tesla is interesting to watch is see the engineering that has gone into a Tesla and how they are constantly making changes to reduce cost and weight to make a better less costly vehicle.
If you watch the videos take a look at the high voltage connector design. Sandy shows one of the issues Tesla had and how they changed the design. I just don’t think it’s as easy as you think. Sandy talks about the issues Tesla had with the HV connectors which would have problems and Tesla owners on the side of the road mid-trip. These were not isolated indents.
I would think they would have similar issues with the coolant connectors.
But all of this would add cost and weight to the vehicle which is something Tesla is trying to avoid.
I wonder why Tesla gave up? I think another reason is they are constantly changing the battery case design and the number of fasteners which would just add to the complexity of the equipment needed to remove and reinstall the batteries.
Those are my thoughts.
But don’t you think Tesla should be using the self-charging, green NDB batteries Dave recently reviewed? The batteries would never need to be swapped and are self charging.
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Unless we get a significant increase in battery capacity (like 2x) I don't think a quick-swap battery system like that will be feasible. It'll waste too much space and restrict car design significantly to be competitive with non-swappable cars. Especially now that we got 150A chargers and such.
Just seems like an obviously fundamentally flawed idea.
The idea of physically swapping a several hundred kg large battery pack that needs automated handling and storage and bulk rack automated charging infrastructure etc just seems completely for all but the most niche applications (e.g. electric racing or something). No wonder it went nowhere.
And it needs to be automated because Joe Average EV owner isn't going to be able to operate such a system manually themselves, and we aren't going to go back to service station attendants that run over to your car and swap your pack and clean your windscreen for you.
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Unless we get a significant increase in battery capacity (like 2x) I don't think a quick-swap battery system like that will be feasible. It'll waste too much space and restrict car design significantly to be competitive with non-swappable cars. Especially now that we got 150A chargers and such.
Just seems like an obviously fundamentally flawed idea.
The idea of physically swapping a several hundred kg large battery pack that needs automated handling and storage and bulk rack automated charging infrastructure etc just seems completely for all but the most niche applications (e.g. electric racing or something). No wonder it went nowhere.
And it needs to be automated because Joe Average EV owner isn't going to be able to operate such a system manually themselves, and we aren't going to go back to service station attendants that run over to your car and swap your pack and clean your windscreen for you.
Seems to actually be a thing in China?
https://electrek.co/2020/01/17/ev-battery-swapping-is-dead-in-us-but-china-wants-to-make-it-happen/
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Wireless EV charging might yet to be a thing.
Chap I've sold a bit of gear to is getting 10KW over 200mm. :o
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I say we need a small robust emergency fuel cell which can convert gasoline directly into enough electricity with enough kick that a tiny 5 liter gas tank will at least give you an emergency 60km/h for a good ~50km. Though, if you never need end up using it, I wonder if the gas would go rotten after a year or two.
At least with gasoline, under the absolute worst set of circumstances, you can still hop from gas station to gas station ~50km apart, or at least reach one and charge up.
Also, 5 liters of gas and the fuel cell would still take up space, but not much in weight. So it would be an option for those who might need it.
And yes, just like with clean fuel cell tech which directly convert hydrogen into electricity with water exhaust, fuel cells which convert gasoline directly into electricity with a carbon-dioxide exhaust are also possible.
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Unless we get a significant increase in battery capacity (like 2x) I don't think a quick-swap battery system like that will be feasible. It'll waste too much space and restrict car design significantly to be competitive with non-swappable cars. Especially now that we got 150A chargers and such.
Just seems like an obviously fundamentally flawed idea.
The idea of physically swapping a several hundred kg large battery pack that needs automated handling and storage and bulk rack automated charging infrastructure etc just seems completely for all but the most niche applications (e.g. electric racing or something). No wonder it went nowhere.
And it needs to be automated because Joe Average EV owner isn't going to be able to operate such a system manually themselves, and we aren't going to go back to service station attendants that run over to your car and swap your pack and clean your windscreen for you.
Seems to actually be a thing in China?
https://electrek.co/2020/01/17/ev-battery-swapping-is-dead-in-us-but-china-wants-to-make-it-happen/
I just saw that article too. Appears Tesla dumped the idea because they were going bankrupt at the time.
What China is doing is something that would probably never occur in capitalistic world is to create an industry standard. I'm sure it's government controlled. When you have a dictator things get done. When you have a democracy people argue over it for years and spend a lot of money on research and get little accomplished.
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... people argue over it for years and spend a lot of money on research and get little accomplished.
Its called NATO ... (No Action, Talks Only) :P
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Unless we get a significant increase in battery capacity (like 2x) I don't think a quick-swap battery system like that will be feasible. It'll waste too much space and restrict car design significantly to be competitive with non-swappable cars. Especially now that we got 150A chargers and such.
Just seems like an obviously fundamentally flawed idea.
The idea of physically swapping a several hundred kg large battery pack that needs automated handling and storage and bulk rack automated charging infrastructure etc just seems completely for all but the most niche applications (e.g. electric racing or something). No wonder it went nowhere.
And it needs to be automated because Joe Average EV owner isn't going to be able to operate such a system manually themselves, and we aren't going to go back to service station attendants that run over to your car and swap your pack and clean your windscreen for you.
Seems to actually be a thing in China?
https://electrek.co/2020/01/17/ev-battery-swapping-is-dead-in-us-but-china-wants-to-make-it-happen/
I just saw that article too. Appears Tesla dumped the idea because they were going bankrupt at the time.
What China is doing is something that would probably never occur in capitalistic world is to create an industry standard. I'm sure it's government controlled. When you have a dictator things get done. When you have a democracy people argue over it for years and spend a lot of money on research and get little accomplished.
The US used to have industry standards... e.g. cars used to all have to use the same sealed beam round headlights, etc. - That was back before the average price of a new car was $36K like today, of course...
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Unless we get a significant increase in battery capacity (like 2x) I don't think a quick-swap battery system like that will be feasible. It'll waste too much space and restrict car design significantly to be competitive with non-swappable cars. Especially now that we got 150A chargers and such.
Just seems like an obviously fundamentally flawed idea.
The idea of physically swapping a several hundred kg large battery pack that needs automated handling and storage and bulk rack automated charging infrastructure etc just seems completely for all but the most niche applications (e.g. electric racing or something). No wonder it went nowhere.
And it needs to be automated because Joe Average EV owner isn't going to be able to operate such a system manually themselves, and we aren't going to go back to service station attendants that run over to your car and swap your pack and clean your windscreen for you.
Seems to actually be a thing in China?
https://electrek.co/2020/01/17/ev-battery-swapping-is-dead-in-us-but-china-wants-to-make-it-happen/
I just saw that article too. Appears Tesla dumped the idea because they were going bankrupt at the time.
What China is doing is something that would probably never occur in capitalistic world is to create an industry standard. I'm sure it's government controlled. When you have a dictator things get done. When you have a democracy people argue over it for years and spend a lot of money on research and get little accomplished.
The US used to have industry standards... e.g. cars used to all have to use the same sealed beam round headlights, etc. - That was back before the average price of a new car was $36K like today, of course...
I remember. And you could use SAE tools. That was until you pruchased a VW bug. They were so easy to work on, but not with SAE tools. That was when Americans finally realized we "lost" WWII. Americans were all buying German and soon after Japanese cars. The next think we know GM is being taught how to build a better car by the Japaneses. Then the Japanese were making GM cars, and now if Ford has it's way, VW will be making Ford cars. And what happened to British food? It's very good these days.
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[...]
The US used to have industry standards... e.g. cars used to all have to use the same sealed beam round headlights, etc. - That was back before the average price of a new car was $36K like today, of course...
I remember. And you could use SAE tools. That was until you pruchased a VW bug. They were so easy to work on, but not with SAE tools. That was when Americans finally realized we "lost" WWII. Americans were all buying German and soon after Japanese cars. The next think we know GM is being taught how to build a better car by the Japaneses. Then the Japanese were making GM cars, and now if Ford has it's way, VW will be making Ford cars. And what happened to British food? It's very good these days.
Where the US model went wrong, was trying to leverage enormous mass production to make cheaper products! - funnily enough, it turns out people are willing to pay more to "feel special", and modern manufacturing has made it cheaper to make many variations. American manufacturers have understood this by now, hence the proliferation of luxury SUVs, pick-up trucks, and the like. Ford doesn't even want to make cars any more, as you said. What could possibly go wrong with that attitude... (i.e.: giving up... Henry is rotating in his grave, I think)
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Wireless EV charging might yet to be a thing.
Chap I've sold a bit of gear to is getting 10KW over 200mm. :o
200 mm gap or 200 mm diameter antenna?
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Wireless EV charging might yet to be a thing.
Chap I've sold a bit of gear to is getting 10KW over 200mm. :o
200 mm gap or 200 mm diameter antenna?
Gap.
Will be catching up with him again soon as he needs more gear so will check on progress and advances but of course this is commercially sensitive so can't share much, sorry.
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Wireless EV charging might yet to be a thing.
Chap I've sold a bit of gear to is getting 10KW over 200mm. :o
Wireless EV charge IS a thing. Quite a few buses are in service which lower a panel to the ground at each bus stop are get a burst of charging to see them to the next bus stop. Allowing for the thickness of the tarmac they are probably getting 200mm range for those things.
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Wireless EV charging might yet to be a thing.
Chap I've sold a bit of gear to is getting 10KW over 200mm. :o
Wireless EV charge IS a thing. Quite a few buses are in service which lower a panel to the ground at each bus stop are get a burst of charging to see them to the next bus stop. Allowing for the thickness of the tarmac they are probably getting 200mm range for those things.
How big are those units, we don't see stuff like that deployed here in NZ....well I haven't.
The development prototype my customer has is relatively small, only ~ 0.5m2 which could easily be incorporated into the manufacture of any small EV.
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Wireless EV charging might yet to be a thing.
Chap I've sold a bit of gear to is getting 10KW over 200mm. :o
Wireless EV charge IS a thing. Quite a few buses are in service which lower a panel to the ground at each bus stop are get a burst of charging to see them to the next bus stop. Allowing for the thickness of the tarmac they are probably getting 200mm range for those things.
How big are those units, we don't see stuff like that deployed here in NZ....well I haven't.
The development prototype my customer has is relatively small, only ~ 0.5m2 which could easily be incorporated into the manufacture of any small EV.
I've seen videos of these things from several countries, but I think most of them are all prototypes. I've seen actual buses in Shenzhen doing this on normal routes. I don't know how widespread deployment might be. They lower a pretty big rectangular area, but its a while since I saw one, and I can't remember its actual size. The big problem the drivers seemed to face was being able to get their bus in the right spot at busy times, when several buses arrive together. Videos always show nice simple scenarios, with bus stops in large laybys on mostly deserted roads.
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Wireless EV charging might yet to be a thing.
Chap I've sold a bit of gear to is getting 10KW over 200mm. :o
Wireless EV charge IS a thing. Quite a few buses are in service which lower a panel to the ground at each bus stop are get a burst of charging to see them to the next bus stop. Allowing for the thickness of the tarmac they are probably getting 200mm range for those things.
How big are those units, we don't see stuff like that deployed here in NZ....well I haven't.
The development prototype my customer has is relatively small, only ~ 0.5m2 which could easily be incorporated into the manufacture of any small EV.
I've seen videos of these things from several countries, but I think most of them are all prototypes. I've seen actual buses in Shenzhen doing this on normal routes. I don't know how widespread deployment might be. They lower a pretty big rectangular area, but its a while since I saw one, and I can't remember its actual size. The big problem the drivers seemed to face was being able to get their bus in the right spot at busy times, when several buses arrive together. Videos always show nice simple scenarios, with bus stops in large laybys on mostly deserted roads.
The Buses in China are using Maxwell (aka Tesla) Ultracapacitors. (at least they did in the past).
Wireless charging works but I have some concerns. The cost and weight on the vehicle is one. It's to beat a cable and connector.
The wireless charging uses a double resonance transformer. There are two tanks circuits one on each side of the coils. For resonance to work the Q needs to be high enough for a shar resonance. That means the current solishing around in the two coils needs to have wire that can handle it. The wire is Litz. Which is expensive. Also the resonant capacitors are not cheap. They have the full current of the coil and run with 100% reversal.
Also they work best with a small gap. Look at the wireless charger on your phone. The phone needs to be close to the coil.
But I'm probably wrong. :)
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The wire is Litz.
Not in the prototypes I've seen.
Copper strap like used in the secondaries of arc welder transformers.
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The wire is Litz.
Not in the prototypes I've seen.
Copper strap like used in the secondaries of arc welder transformers.
Then the efficiency is less then optimum.
Perhaps you can provide a reference?
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The wire is Litz.
Not in the prototypes I've seen.
Copper strap like used in the secondaries of arc welder transformers.
Then the efficiency is less then optimum.
Perhaps you can provide a reference?
Nope, sorry. Commercially sensitive. :-X
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The wire is Litz.
Not in the prototypes I've seen.
Copper strap like used in the secondaries of arc welder transformers.
Then the efficiency is less then optimum.
Perhaps you can provide a reference?
Nope, sorry. Commercially sensitive. :-X
Okay
A arc welder transformer. How do you use that in a wireless charging system. ummmmm That's going to be a big break through I bet. with a 200 mm gap.
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A arc welder transformer.
No, just the thick copper strap like used in arc welder transfomers !
Mostly older ones used it as now Ali is more commonly used as it's lower cost however duty cycle ratings suffer.
Old welders were just dumb transformers whereas new types are inverter based with a whole lot of highly rated silicon doing the switching.
Get it wrong and one whole lot of expensive magic smoke escapes ! :scared:
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Isn't inductive charging not that efficient?
Why not use a robotic arm to connect a plug?
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Isn't inductive charging not that efficient?
Why not use a robotic arm to connect a plug?
Efficiency is related to cost. It could be efficient. Use lots of Litz wire. :)
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Isn't inductive charging not that efficient?
Why not use a robotic arm to connect a plug?
Robotic Arm, that's how they work here
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My first experience charging an EV at a local hotel ended up with me leaving because the spot was taken by either a clueless or dickhead ICE owner >:(
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My first experience charging an EV at a local hotel ended up with me leaving because the spot was taken by either a clueless or dickhead ICE owner >:(
Is Australia like the UK, where many charging stations are in places that look fine during the day, but you wouldn't want to spend time at in the middle of the night, when there are no people, lights or any kind of security around?
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My first experience charging an EV at a local hotel ended up with me leaving because the spot was taken by either a clueless or dickhead ICE owner >:(
Is Australia like the UK, where many charging stations are in places that look fine during the day, but you wouldn't want to spend time at in the middle of the night, when there are no people, lights or any kind of security around?
Security? :-//
What kind of city do you live in?
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My first experience charging an EV at a local hotel ended up with me leaving because the spot was taken by either a clueless or dickhead ICE owner >:(
Is Australia like the UK, where many charging stations are in places that look fine during the day, but you wouldn't want to spend time at in the middle of the night, when there are no people, lights or any kind of security around?
Security? :-//
What kind of city do you live in?
Whatever city you live in dark unoccupied corners are not the safest places at night. Also, if you are talking about chargers for long distance travel, you may be looking at a spot far from the madding crowd. I may not worry too much about some of these places, but most women would, with good reason.
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My first experience charging an EV at a local hotel ended up with me leaving because the spot was taken by either a clueless or dickhead ICE owner >:(
Is Australia like the UK, where many charging stations are in places that look fine during the day, but you wouldn't want to spend time at in the middle of the night, when there are no people, lights or any kind of security around?
Security? :-//
What kind of city do you live in?
Whatever city you live in dark unoccupied corners are not the safest places at night. Also, if you are talking about chargers for long distance travel, you may be looking at a spot far from the madding crowd. I may not worry too much about some of these places, but most women would, with good reason.
Are you referring the Whites House? Or the Capital Building. Both can be dark places, unsafe for women.
What on Earth are you talking about? Have you no idea of the differences in how men and women perceive threats. Try asking some of the men and women you know how they would react when staying alone in a hotel, and there is a knock on the door at 3AM. You'll get very different responses.
Remember that alone in that dark charging point area you can't even drive off quickly if someone dodgy looking appears. You need to get out of your car and disconnect the charging cable.
I remember a few years ago, when we were having discussions as part of one of the charging standards processes, someone raised the idea of a connector that could be ejected from the driver's seat. This was specifically to allow for a quick escape in the event of trouble around a charging station. I wonder what happened to that idea?
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Doug's post removed. Please do not start that political crap here.
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I remember a few years ago, when we were having discussions as part of one of the charging standards processes, someone raised the idea of a connector that could be ejected from the driver's seat. This was specifically to allow for a quick escape in the event of trouble around a charging station. I wonder what happened to that idea?
Cost and complexity I'd imagine, for little real world added benefit. Even the marketing for such a feature would be conflicting. On one hand you advertise this neat "get away" feature. On the other hand you are effectively implying that charging EV's is done in dark seedy places were you aren't safe.
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I remember a few years ago, when we were having discussions as part of one of the charging standards processes, someone raised the idea of a connector that could be ejected from the driver's seat. This was specifically to allow for a quick escape in the event of trouble around a charging station. I wonder what happened to that idea?
Cost and complexity I'd imagine, for little real world added benefit. Even the marketing for such a feature would be conflicting. On one hand you advertise this neat "get away" feature. On the other hand you are effectively implying that charging EV's is done in dark seedy places were you aren't safe.
Well, it is happening in dark seedy places. Typically places that look fine during the day, but not at night. Some of the Youtubers who make electric vehicle videos have started making videos on this topic, as they are realising a wife's attitude to long trip charging alone can be very different to her husband's. A lot of Americans like to drive around with all their doors locked, and many cars support this by locking all the doors as the car begins to move. There's nothing new in treating the car like its an armoured cell to protect you.
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I remember a few years ago, when we were having discussions as part of one of the charging standards processes, someone raised the idea of a connector that could be ejected from the driver's seat. This was specifically to allow for a quick escape in the event of trouble around a charging station. I wonder what happened to that idea?
Cost and complexity I'd imagine, for little real world added benefit. Even the marketing for such a feature would be conflicting. On one hand you advertise this neat "get away" feature. On the other hand you are effectively implying that charging EV's is done in dark seedy places were you aren't safe.
Well, it is happening in dark seedy places. Typically places that look fine during the day, but not at night. Some of the Youtubers who make electric vehicle videos have started making videos on this topic, as they are realising a wife's attitude to long trip charging alone can be very different to her husband's. A lot of Americans like to drive around with all their doors locked, and many cars support this by locking all the doors as the car begins to move. There's nothing new in treating the car like its an armoured cell to protect you.
Another reason to buy a plug-in hybrid and charge it mostly at home. It is simply a very practical real-world solution in so many ways, IMHO.
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I remember a few years ago, when we were having discussions as part of one of the charging standards processes, someone raised the idea of a connector that could be ejected from the driver's seat. This was specifically to allow for a quick escape in the event of trouble around a charging station. I wonder what happened to that idea?
Cost and complexity I'd imagine, for little real world added benefit. Even the marketing for such a feature would be conflicting. On one hand you advertise this neat "get away" feature. On the other hand you are effectively implying that charging EV's is done in dark seedy places were you aren't safe.
Well, it is happening in dark seedy places. Typically places that look fine during the day, but not at night. Some of the Youtubers who make electric vehicle videos have started making videos on this topic, as they are realising a wife's attitude to long trip charging alone can be very different to her husband's. A lot of Americans like to drive around with all their doors locked, and many cars support this by locking all the doors as the car begins to move. There's nothing new in treating the car like its an armoured cell to protect you.
Another reason to buy a plug-in hybrid and charge it mostly at home. It is simply a very practical real-world solution in so many ways, IMHO.
Again, large population live in urban environment, in he cities , in apartments.
They don't have houses with large backyards, 3 car garages etc. We park the car in the streets and public garages.
With no places to plug in a car..
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I remember a few years ago, when we were having discussions as part of one of the charging standards processes, someone raised the idea of a connector that could be ejected from the driver's seat. This was specifically to allow for a quick escape in the event of trouble around a charging station. I wonder what happened to that idea?
Cost and complexity I'd imagine, for little real world added benefit. Even the marketing for such a feature would be conflicting. On one hand you advertise this neat "get away" feature. On the other hand you are effectively implying that charging EV's is done in dark seedy places were you aren't safe.
Well, it is happening in dark seedy places. Typically places that look fine during the day, but not at night. Some of the Youtubers who make electric vehicle videos have started making videos on this topic, as they are realising a wife's attitude to long trip charging alone can be very different to her husband's. A lot of Americans like to drive around with all their doors locked, and many cars support this by locking all the doors as the car begins to move. There's nothing new in treating the car like its an armoured cell to protect you.
Another reason to buy a plug-in hybrid and charge it mostly at home. It is simply a very practical real-world solution in so many ways, IMHO.
Again, large population live in urban environment, in he cities , in apartments.
They don't have houses with large backyards, 3 car garages etc. We park the car in the streets and public garages.
With no places to plug in a car..
It is difficult/expensive to own a car in many cities. Parking, just to start somewhere. Obviously if the infrastructure is not yet there to charge an EV, your choices might be a PHEV (if you can charge at work, for example), a HEV, or a plain ICE. Horses for courses!
That said, isn't it one of the benefits of living in a city, in an apartment, that you may not even need to have a car at all? Back in the day when I lived in the city, I had a motorcycle and a bus/subway pass... and an account at Avis rent-a-car!
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When I was in England last year I saw EV charging stations on the residential streets in London. They looked like regular were regular parking places but had What looked like a parking meter with a cord which was the charger. Looked to me like anyone with an EV could use them. Sure looks like it’s possible to provide charging for people who live in a city with no garage or parking.
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That said, isn't it one of the benefits of living in a city, in an apartment, that you may not even need to have a car at all? Back in the day when I lived in the city, I had a motorcycle and a bus/subway pass... and an account at Avis rent-a-car!
This very much depends on the city. Many city people stare at public transport, because its something they have rarely seen. You have to experience life in a place like Hong Kong before you truly get that "what's the point of a private car?" feeling.
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I'm a bit of a petrol head so living without a car (or motorcycle - definitely an option) would be unbearable - I'd be sitting in a corner, pining! :D
Whether powered by petrol, electric, hydrogen, CNG, or whatever...
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I'm a bit of a petrol head so living without a car (or motorcycle - definitely an option) would be unbearable - I'd be sitting in a corner, pining! :D
Live in a place like Hong Kong, with really first rate public transport, and you'll wonder why you ever wanted a car. We tend to develop a horrible dependency on these machines. Letting someone else clean and maintain my transport is so much simpler.
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Another reason to buy a plug-in hybrid and charge it mostly at home. It is simply a very practical real-world solution in so many ways, IMHO.
I agree. That's what I did and it works great.
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I'm a bit of a petrol head so living without a car (or motorcycle - definitely an option) would be unbearable - I'd be sitting in a corner, pining! :D
Live in a place like Hong Kong, with really first rate public transport, and you'll wonder why you ever wanted a car. We tend to develop a horrible dependency on these machines. Letting someone else clean and maintain my transport is so much simpler.
I don't want to live in 100 ft^2 apartment.
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I'm a bit of a petrol head so living without a car (or motorcycle - definitely an option) would be unbearable - I'd be sitting in a corner, pining! :D
Live in a place like Hong Kong, with really first rate public transport, and you'll wonder why you ever wanted a car. We tend to develop a horrible dependency on these machines. Letting someone else clean and maintain my transport is so much simpler.
I totally get it. Ideally, a private car should ONLY be a hobby, not something you NEED to do...
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I'm a bit of a petrol head so living without a car (or motorcycle - definitely an option) would be unbearable - I'd be sitting in a corner, pining! :D
Live in a place like Hong Kong, with really first rate public transport, and you'll wonder why you ever wanted a car. We tend to develop a horrible dependency on these machines. Letting someone else clean and maintain my transport is so much simpler.
I don't want to live in 100 ft^2 apartment.
Then you need to be in California where you can get a 5,500 ft^2 house with a four car garage. Don't expect to use public transit as the nearest public transit might be a 100 miles or more away.
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I'm a bit of a petrol head so living without a car (or motorcycle - definitely an option) would be unbearable - I'd be sitting in a corner, pining! :D
Live in a place like Hong Kong, with really first rate public transport, and you'll wonder why you ever wanted a car. We tend to develop a horrible dependency on these machines. Letting someone else clean and maintain my transport is so much simpler.
I don't want to live in 100 ft^2 apartment.
Then you need to be in California where you can get a 5,500 ft^2 house with a four car garage. Don't expect to use public transit as the nearest public transit might be a 100 miles or more away.
I already live in CA.
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I'm a bit of a petrol head so living without a car (or motorcycle - definitely an option) would be unbearable - I'd be sitting in a corner, pining! :D
Live in a place like Hong Kong, with really first rate public transport, and you'll wonder why you ever wanted a car. We tend to develop a horrible dependency on these machines. Letting someone else clean and maintain my transport is so much simpler.
I don't want to live in 100 ft^2 apartment.
Then you need to be in California where you can get a 5,500 ft^2 house with a four car garage. Don't expect to use public transit as the nearest public transit might be a 100 miles or more away.
I already live in CA.
And the nearest public transporation you would take would be how far away?
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I'm a bit of a petrol head so living without a car (or motorcycle - definitely an option) would be unbearable - I'd be sitting in a corner, pining! :D
Live in a place like Hong Kong, with really first rate public transport, and you'll wonder why you ever wanted a car. We tend to develop a horrible dependency on these machines. Letting someone else clean and maintain my transport is so much simpler.
I don't want to live in 100 ft^2 apartment.
Then you need to be in California where you can get a 5,500 ft^2 house with a four car garage. Don't expect to use public transit as the nearest public transit might be a 100 miles or more away.
I already live in CA.
And the nearest public transporation you would take would be how far away?
I just checked and it is 3.5 miles or 5.6 km. After you get there you can go downtown. That takes about 2 hours. My son and his friend tried it one time and they swore they would never get on a bus again. :)
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I'm a bit of a petrol head so living without a car (or motorcycle - definitely an option) would be unbearable - I'd be sitting in a corner, pining! :D
Live in a place like Hong Kong, with really first rate public transport, and you'll wonder why you ever wanted a car. We tend to develop a horrible dependency on these machines. Letting someone else clean and maintain my transport is so much simpler.
I don't want to live in 100 ft^2 apartment.
Then you need to be in California where you can get a 5,500 ft^2 house with a four car garage. Don't expect to use public transit as the nearest public transit might be a 100 miles or more away.
I already live in CA.
And the nearest public transporation you would take would be how far away?
I just checked and it is 3.5 miles or 5.6 km. After you get there you can go downtown. That takes about 2 hours. My son and his friend tried it one time and they swore they would never get on a bus again. :)
I have the same story. You just can't live in California without a car.
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Getting back on-topic;
more and more jurisdictions are requiring new builds to have charging capability in garages (both single family homes, and multi-family). It's certainly true here in the city, but what about out in the country....
A very interesting take on it happened to me a month ago. We went 'up north' with the EV to visit family at an off grid cabin. Now when you get outside of the big city here on the west coast, it can get very redneck, very quickly. Picture one EV Car, parked next to 3 big 4x4 pickup trucks, and a couple of SUVs.
Much to my surprise, they were all very interested in the EV "Oh yeah, it's definitely going that way" "that will be so much cheaper to operate" etc etc. Also, being farming types, they were all thrilled when they found out "Oh, you can just plug that into a welder socket (240/20 or 240/50)" when they saw my EVSE. I did exactly that at one of their houses(small farm), and they thought it was very very interesting, and made them even more receptive to the technology.
The other (rather forward thinking) question was "wont all of these EVs stress the power grid to breaking point", and when they realized most charging will happen over night, they were all "Oh yeah, good point".
The new Ford EV pickup, along with Rivian, is going to make it very very interesting in the country.
Here in the city, it strikes me the market is every small (< 5 tonnes) delivery van. Why that hasn't happened more I have no idea.
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The new Ford EV pickup, along with Rivian, is going to make it very very interesting in the country.
The problem with pickups is a lot of them are used to tow. When you tow in an ICE pickup and get some appalling gas mileage during towing, you just live with it. When you get that with an electric pickup you might not arrive. I've heard complaints that current electric cars prove inadequate for towing caravans, but towing it a much more common thing with pickups. Most of the electric pickup announcements talk about really long range. They aren't really trying to get long range, they are trying to get tolerable range while towing.
Here in the city, it strikes me the market is every small (< 5 tonnes) delivery van. Why that hasn't happened more I have no idea.
There are actually quite a lot of electric delivery vans around. Most are based on common ICE powered vans, so they don't look obviously different. Even the Nissan eNV200, which is one of the better known electric delivery vans, looks just like its ICE pwoered sibling, so you need to look carefully to see what it is.
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I think this is another X-Y problem here.
We're looking always at how to carry on our existing behaviour with "I want an electric pickup so I can carry on like it was yesterday." It's not yesterday any more so we need to start working on "how can I achieve X with the tools available".
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I think this is another X-Y problem here.
We're looking always at how to carry on our existing behaviour with "I want an electric pickup so I can carry on like it was yesterday." It's not yesterday any more so we need to start working on "how can I achieve X with the tools available".
I agree. This is like switching from horses to ICE for transportation.
If you take a look at Jay Leno’s Garage he drove the Cybertruck with Elon. From what Jay was saying EV trucks are better suited for farmers needs than ICE. The power curve for an EV truck, low end torque, is what they want.
Sounds like a lot of farmers have placed orders for the Cybertruck. And once again Ford is trying to catch-up with the announcement of their EV truck in a few years.
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Is Australia like the UK, where many charging stations are in places that look fine during the day, but you wouldn't want to spend time at in the middle of the night, when there are no people, lights or any kind of security around?
FWIW the only public sites I've seen/used to date have been near other facilities. Regionally they've been at parks with public toilets not far from pubs & cafes, or in shopping centre carparks, or adjacent to highway services (with McDonalds etc), or in the carpark of a country golf course, or a train station car park, or across from a row of motels.
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I feel it's always the same with these EV discussions... some say if you don't like them, you're an idiot of the past, others say it's a transitional technology, and some others pretend it's the solution to every transportation that we have/will have...
Reality is that we'll continue to have petrol/diesel cars & trucks for decades, together with EVs, given the lack of public transportation in some areas, given the limited range and charge time (no, I don't want to wait 3 hours for a charger to become available while going on holiday, in an overcrowded highway station in the summer ! and this 3 or 4 times in a row... when driving 2000km), given the availability of materials to build batteries, given the new recycling needs/issues, given the fact that our electricity is not massively produced ecologically, etc...
Living in the middle of nowhere in France (or in North Dakota, or wherever...), is obviously not the same as living in London or Singapore, and NO single solution fits everywhere.
The most recent petrol & diesel cars are pretty clean, so the problem is more to modernise the current fleet, rather than to have everyone switch to EVs, which is financially, technically, and logistically impossible to achieve in the near future.
To get back to the (initial) subject... I recently had an Audi eTron on test for a few days... and while it's a really nice car, the range was simply inadequate... announced for 400-450km, when driving as I drive on European highways (yes, slightly above the limits), it was in fact rather 250km (if not less), which for me meant that I wouldn't even be able to get back home from my (usual) workplace... pretty disappointing for a 100K car ! (and I'm an Audi fan, so no Audi-bashing here !!).
Longer trips (>200km) at 120-150kmh is simply NOT the right use-case for EVs, modern diesels are far better at this. Personally, I'd rather go for a hybrid, but a large family car, with a decent electrical range, and ideally 4WD (in some areas, this is rather a must in the winter), also costs North of anything reasonable...
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I think it's more complicated. Transport is a luxury. We need to structure society so it requires less of it. That means moving to more self sufficient communities by centralising population and leaving it for essential use only. Not building an electric pickup truck, even if it does look cool and I want one :)
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I think it's more complicated. Transport is a luxury. We need to structure society so it requires less of it. That means moving to more self sufficient communities by centralising population and leaving it for essential use only. Not building an electric pickup truck, even if it does look cool and I want one :)
We need to move back to more local self-sufficiency for many reasons, like being able to isolate without massive negative effects when there is a pandemic, but calling transport a luxury is highly misleading. Transport has become a necessity. Most people hate most of it. Who want to add an hour in traffic every morning and evening to their 8 hour working day? Whether you are talking about the transport of people or goods it has become a necessity. No transport, no meals. No transport, no work. Its insidious. People can't afford to live where they work? No problem. Transport is cheap. This country can't produce enough food? No problem. Transport is cheap. We need to restructure things so transport moves back to being more of a luxury for most people and goods.
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I think it's more complicated. Transport is a luxury. We need to structure society so it requires less of it. That means moving to more self sufficient communities by centralising population and leaving it for essential use only. Not building an electric pickup truck, even if it does look cool and I want one :)
We need to move back to more local self-sufficiency for many reasons, like being able to isolate without massive negative effects when there is a pandemic, but calling transport a luxury is highly misleading. Transport has become a necessity. Most people hate most of it. Who want to add an hour in traffic every morning and evening to their 8 hour working day? Whether you are talking about the transport of people or goods it has become a necessity. No transport, no meals. No transport, no work. Its insidious. People can't afford to live where they work? No problem. Transport is cheap. This country can't produce enough food? No problem. Transport is cheap. We need to restructure things so transport moves back to being more of a luxury for most people and goods.
I agree, transportation is a necessity. We were born with two legs for a reason! :D
As the distance increases, the reason for traveling that far has to be "worth it". Few go on a 2,000km Sunday cruise for an ice cream... but many would go even further to see a loved one. Most people have a pretty good sense of how much time and money spent on transport is "worth it" to them.
In other words, transport is part of the balance between where you live, where you work, how large/spread out your family is, and what you like to do in your own time. I don't think you can alter one of these factors without affecting all the others.
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That's the attitude that's wrong. We have little idea of necessity as a species because true necessity isn't a recent memory. What we want will become increasingly irrelevant in the next 100 years or so if we don't curb our excessive consumption of resources. My point is that a time will come where we you modify where you live, where you work and how large your family is and to an extent what you do in your own time. Better to do that now and adjust to the changes slowly rather than turn into a violent geopolitical mess as it will inevitably turn out at the last minute. That's our usual failure mode.
Electric vehicles are really an excuse to carry on our terrible behaviour as a species while digging up lithium instead of oil. It's not a good solution; it's a different solution within the same set of constraints.
Also I'm sure when our nuclear power stations here in the UK bite the dust in the next 20 years, we're going to end up shovelling coal in our cars like it's 1850 again...
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Also I'm sure when our nuclear power stations here in the UK bite the dust in the next 20 years, we're going to end up shovelling coal in our cars like it's 1850 again...
Or we'll just keep re-assessing how many cracked graphite blocks is acceptable and extend the AGR lifespans over and over again. Whatever happens EV-wise we should be building new nuclear plants now, or ideally 10 years ago - there is a lot of natural gas space heating that we will have to displace somehow.
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Yep or that. While working out where to make a new Sellafield :palm:
10 years ago. Definitely 10 years ago.
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Nuclear must have moved on since the Sellafield days, though? It is a magic power source, if properly tamed...
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That's the attitude that's wrong. We have little idea of necessity as a species because true necessity isn't a recent memory. What we want will become increasingly irrelevant in the next 100 years or so if we don't curb our excessive consumption of resources. My point is that a time will come where we you modify where you live, where you work and how large your family is and to an extent what you do in your own time. Better to do that now and adjust to the changes slowly rather than turn into a violent geopolitical mess as it will inevitably turn out at the last minute. That's our usual failure mode.
I strongly doubt we'll manage to avoid that sharp turn... when I was a kid, we learned at school we were 3 billion humans, in 2011, we passed the 7 billion mark, and we'll likely pass te 8 billion mark this year... whatever 'turn' you initiate right now in the US and/or Europe, this is not going in the right direction (at a global scale). And whatever technical marvels we come up with, again, at a global scale, we're driving straight into the wall...
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Also I'm sure when our nuclear power stations here in the UK bite the dust in the next 20 years, we're going to end up shovelling coal in our cars like it's 1850 again...
Great. I've always thought Stanley Steamers are really cool cars. :)
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[...] We have little idea of necessity [of travel] as a species because true necessity isn't a recent memory. [...]
Try to explain that to Mrs. SilverSolder when she wants to visit her children in faraway lands... Our species isn't necessarily logical, on that we can definitely agree! :D
We were born with two legs... we are designed to travel within a radius that they can reasonably cope with. That's the starting point of all transportation!
The real solution to this, in my view, is technology.... tech so advanced it seems like magic, tech that does away with much of the need to travel in the first place, tech that makes whatever travel is still necessary very un-damaging to the environment.
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Seeing as we don't have a StarTrek transporter and the Concord is not longer flying the best we can do is jets and cars. (And in a few places trains.) As many of the people in the world want to travel I just can't imagine anyone trading there seat on a jet or in a car a pair Nike and Adidas.
On YouTube there is a German women who moved to the US and she was talking about this very issue. She said in Germany it is common to walk to where you are going. (Store, movies, train station etc.) She was shocked when she arrived in the US and people would get in there car to drive to the store when they could walk. For months she couldn't understand it but with all of her friends doing it, she started driving even if the store was block away.
Now she always drives to where ever she is going including when she's visiting family back in Germany.
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Seeing as we don't have a StarTrek transporter and the Concord is not longer flying the best we can do is jets and cars. (And in a few places trains.) As many of the people in the world want to travel I just can't imagine anyone trading there seat on a jet or in a car a pair Nike and Adidas.
On YouTube there is a German women who moved to the US and she was talking about this very issue. She said in Germany it is common to walk to where you are going. (Store, movies, train station etc.) She was shocked when she arrived in the US and people would get in there car to drive to the store when they could walk. For months she couldn't understand it but with all of her friends doing it, she started driving even if the store was block away.
Now she always drives to where ever she is going including when she's visiting family back in Germany.
Where I used to live in HK the local residents club gym has a glass wall facing a beautiful hillside with a hiking trail along the ridge. Along that wall of the gym are a line of running machines. In the hot weather many people run on those machines, looking out at the hillside. In the cool weather a number of Americans continue to run on the running machines, while other people are enjoying the hiking trail, with its magnificent views. Strange psychology seems to be at work there. :)
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[...] We have little idea of necessity [of travel] as a species because true necessity isn't a recent memory. [...]
Try to explain that to Mrs. SilverSolder when she wants to visit her children in faraway lands... Our species isn't necessarily logical, on that we can definitely agree! :D
We were born with two legs... we are designed to travel within a radius that they can reasonably cope with. That's the starting point of all transportation!
The real solution to this, in my view, is technology.... tech so advanced it seems like magic, tech that does away with much of the need to travel in the first place, tech that makes whatever travel is still necessary very un-damaging to the environment.
Yes definitely not logical. I certainly understand the emotional side of things.
If I look at where I am right now (SW London, UK), ALL my needs are catered for locally in walking distance and I work from home. When you get into this situation you start to realise how much time isn't used up in hauling arse around everywhere. When I do go out it's a choice thing and for leisure, usually explicitly exercise or socialising. Thus I've done 440 miles in my car this year so far. I'm genuinely thinking about losing the car and using Uber and a bike soon.
Technology I use is Zoom. This is a solved problem. Just not culturally, although thanks to Covid people are getting the idea finally.
But it's not ideal for everyone and some industries you can't do that, but that might be tough shit one day. That industry might be found to be less necessary than they thought. Retail is a fine example now people are realising that dragging your butt to a shop and spending an hour buying stuff is an unproductive waste of time, mostly more expensive than getting it delivered and the customer service is worse.
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I'm yet to be totally convinced about grocery shopping on line - I see going to the supermarket as a break from working from home... talking with people that are not your immediate family or colleagues... that kind of thing. Also, seeing the products in real time is advantageous (mmm, those strawberries look good, but the apples suck... how would you tell online?).
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I was the same for a bit but I've been doing my grocery shopping online for a few years now and am converted. I use Ocado here. The inventory is more reliable and the products fresher as it's direct from warehouse to door unlike half the other supermarkets here which pick from shelves. Zero problems :-//.
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Getting back on topic (EV), as an EV owner, there are a number of things that do still drive me crazy; especially in the way that EVs are presented to the average person.
- Range: Just tell me the size of the forking battery in kWh, don't try and hide behind a "you should go xxx far". Most EVs have similar efficiency numbers, so a battery size to battery size comparison makes the most sense
- Auto-braking: Stop calling it regeneration modes. All braking on EVs is regenerative, that's the point. All it is, is various levels of auto-braking, not varying amounts of regeneration. Was grinding my teeth listening to Dave talk to the bus company about that.
- Charging Time: (see #1). If you tell me the size of the battery, and the power of the EVSE I can work it out. Simple math.
- Subsidies: Stop bitching about subsidies, do you have any idea how much subsidy oil
exploration drilling gets?
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I was the same for a bit but I've been doing my grocery shopping online for a few years now and am converted. I use Ocado here. The inventory is more reliable and the products fresher as it's direct from warehouse to door unlike half the other supermarkets here which pick from shelves. Zero problems :-//.
We've ended up doing both... which is what I expected all along! :D
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- Auto-braking: Stop calling it regeneration modes. All braking on EVs is regenerative, that's the point. All it is, is various levels of auto-braking, not varying amounts of regeneration. Was grinding my teeth listening to Dave talk to the bus company about that.
Stop grinding your teeth, start thinking about why there is always a set of conventional brakes on board. Because when it is not braking regenerative, but as form of traction control, antilock braking system or electronic stability control. That's why there is an important distinction to be made.
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- Auto-braking: Stop calling it regeneration modes. All braking on EVs is regenerative, that's the point. All it is, is various levels of auto-braking, not varying amounts of regeneration. Was grinding my teeth listening to Dave talk to the bus company about that.
Stop grinding your teeth, start thinking about why there is always a set of conventional brakes on board. Because when it is not braking regenerative, but as form of traction control, antilock braking system or electronic stability control. That's why there is an important distinction to be made.
You missed the very important "when the battery is already full", and emergency stops.
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- Auto-braking: Stop calling it regeneration modes. All braking on EVs is regenerative, that's the point. All it is, is various levels of auto-braking, not varying amounts of regeneration. Was grinding my teeth listening to Dave talk to the bus company about that.
Stop grinding your teeth, start thinking about why there is always a set of conventional brakes on board. Because when it is not braking regenerative, but as form of traction control, antilock braking system or electronic stability control. That's why there is an important distinction to be made.
You're missing my point. Most automotive journalists, and @eevblog himself (from having watched his videos about his cards, and Sidney buses) aren't grasping the concept that all braking is regenerative. You don't have to set a 'regen' mode to enable putting energy back into the battery when you slow down due to any kind of braking.
There's zero difference (in energy returned to the car) between
a) having the car in 'agressive regen mode' and taking your foot off the accelerator and the car auto [regen] braking; and
b) having the car in 'no regen mode', taking your foot off the accelerator, and equivilent force [regen] braking with your foot
It's a supremely dumb name for the feature, because it implies to people you only get regenerative braking if you enable it, when in fact all braking is regenerative.
And, in both cases for extreme braking, or when the battery is full, there are brake pads like a normal system
From an 'other car' perspective, it's also less annoying, because (in the case of my VW eGolf), it will light the brakelights as soon as you lift off the accelerator if you're in mode 3 or B (modes are off-1-2-3-B on a VW)
From an energy point of view, it's actually more efficient to coast as much as possible, and keep the car in '0 - no auto braking/regen' mode. Rather than an on/regen/on/regen pattern due to losses in the charging systems
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@boffin
The Volt has a paddle on the steering wheel to ONLY engage the regen braking system. I'm sure other vehicles have something similar. Could it be this is the distinction between regen "braking" and the peddle braking which is brake pads plus regen braking? When stepping on the break peddle isn't there always energy loss in the form of heat because the pads are engaging? Where as paddle regen is nearly 100%?
When I step on the brakes I can't tell how much is regen vs pads.
I don't know... just throwing this out there as a thought.
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@boffin
The Volt has a paddle on the steering wheel to ONLY engage the regen braking system. I'm sure other vehicles have something similar. Could it be this is the distinction between regen "braking" and the peddle braking which is brake pads plus regen braking? When stepping on the break peddle isn't there always energy loss in the form of heat because the pads are engaging? Where as paddle regen is nearly 100%?
When I step on the brakes I can't tell how much is regen vs pads.
I don't know... just throwing this out there as a thought.
It's just various levels of auto-braking.
Every EV (and even hybrids like the Prius) will try and maximize regen braking before engaging traditional brake pads.
The problem is that pretty much every automotive journalist, and even Dave himself is passing along a notion that you're not getting regen unless you engage these 'one foot driving' modes.
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The problem is that pretty much every automotive journalist, and even Dave himself is passing along a notion that you're not getting regen unless you engage these 'one foot driving' modes.
I understand what you're saying, interestingly it doesn't seem to be common here in the UK. Or at least if it is I haven't noticed it.
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@boffin
The Volt has a paddle on the steering wheel to ONLY engage the regen braking system. I'm sure other vehicles have something similar. Could it be this is the distinction between regen "braking" and the peddle braking which is brake pads plus regen braking? When stepping on the break peddle isn't there always energy loss in the form of heat because the pads are engaging? Where as paddle regen is nearly 100%?
When I step on the brakes I can't tell how much is regen vs pads.
I don't know... just throwing this out there as a thought.
On my Ford hybrid, as you slowly press the brake, the computer uses regen at first, then it adds brake pads if you press harder. If the battery fills up, the computer switches from regen to brake pads automatically, you don't even notice the change, it's done very smoothly. I can see this behaviour by looking at my scan gauge, it would be very hard to tell just by driving the car.
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My GTE behaves similarly. The ACC also adapts for regen availability.
Any long drive though and I tend to start off on electric for the first few miles just to discharge the battery a bit, this then gives me a regen buffer for the rest of the drive.
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On my Ford hybrid, as you slowly press the brake, the computer uses regen at first, then it adds brake pads if you press harder. If the battery fills up, the computer switches from regen to brake pads automatically, you don't even notice the change, it's done very smoothly. I can see this behaviour by looking at my scan gauge, it would be very hard to tell just by driving the car.
Same thing on my eGolf; however you can see it very clearly as there's a +/- energy meter showing what's coming from/going to the battery. You really can't tell the transition from electrical braking to friction braking; all a marvel of technology.
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On my Ford hybrid, as you slowly press the brake, the computer uses regen at first, then it adds brake pads if you press harder. If the battery fills up, the computer switches from regen to brake pads automatically, you don't even notice the change, it's done very smoothly. I can see this behaviour by looking at my scan gauge, it would be very hard to tell just by driving the car.
Same thing on my eGolf; however you can see it very clearly as there's a +/- energy meter showing what's coming from/going to the battery. You really can't tell the transition from electrical braking to friction braking; all a marvel of technology.
Ford went to great lengths on their hybrids to make the fact that it is a hybrid non-noticeable to the driver! - which is not a bad decision, by and large. I have a tablet on the dash running extra gauges in software for the "geek mystique"! :D
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Incidentally, this is completely different to a Tesla. Pressing the brake harder gives you no more regen. Regen is mapped onto the accelerator pedal only.
Some newer EVs are using the cruise control radar to pre-empt regen braking before physical brakes are needed, ostensibly to improve efficiency; the car will coast for as long as it can before applying regen sharply. The Mercedes EQC-400 is one such example.
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The default behaviour on a Zoe is weak and speed-dependent regen on lifting the accelerator and stronger regen followed by seamless addition of mechanical braking on the brake pedal. It feels remarkably like the engine braking of a petrol car, which I assume is intentional. The only thing that is noticeable is a very slightly greater travel on the brake pedal before braking starts when the battery is totally full, it is subtle but it was still a little disconcerting until I got used to it.
It doesn't use the mechanical brakes much, the factory pads look near-new at 30,000 miles, but it's enough that I have never noticed rust on the disks except after long periods parked up - they must be used slightly on every journey. I have heard somewhere (fully-charged maybe?) that some EVs use the mechanical brakes so little they don't always keep the discs clean.
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With all these EVs that make minimal use of their disc brakes, do people find rusting and seizing problems? Many ICE cars have tried to minimise the use of their rear brakes, by a variety of mechanisms, like pressure valves in the rear brake hydraulic lines. The results have typically been that light footed drivers make no use of their rear brakes at all, and they rust and seize up.
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With all these EVs that make minimal use of their disc brakes, do people find rusting and seizing problems? Many ICE cars have tried to minimise the use of their rear brakes, by a variety of mechanisms, like pressure valves in the rear brake hydraulic lines. The results have typically been that light footed drivers make no use of their rear brakes at all, and they rust and seize up.
Parking brakes typically operate the rear brakes, so they would get cycled.
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With all these EVs that make minimal use of their disc brakes, do people find rusting and seizing problems? Many ICE cars have tried to minimise the use of their rear brakes, by a variety of mechanisms, like pressure valves in the rear brake hydraulic lines. The results have typically been that light footed drivers make no use of their rear brakes at all, and they rust and seize up.
I've noticed that even on my hybrid car, the front brakes last much longer than ICE cars. (I owned the same vehicle as ICE and Hybrid, so I know it's the only difference!) This means corrosion can become a problem.
The rear brakes hardly wear at all, the only reason to change them is corrosion.
The way around it is to buy the highest quality coated rotors, etc. - that way, you get a good service life out of them. I have good results with Bosch brake parts - high quality without being stupid expensive. Don't try the cheap fast rusting parts, they only work well on ICE vehicles that are used constantly in a benign climate!
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Just tried an experiment with my Volt. According to Volt's Energy meter on the dash, when coasting (foot off the accelerator and the break), it show regen breaking is occurring and the energy is flowing to the battery.
When using the brake pedal going down a hill, if I lightly apply the breaks energy is flowing to the batteries. As I apply more pressure on the brakes regen braking continues. I would expect to reach a point where the regen system is maxed out and the brake pads take over. Couldn't really find that spot.
Lesson I learned from my little experiment is can't tell when regen braking is maxed out and the brake pads take over.
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With all these EVs that make minimal use of their disc brakes, do people find rusting and seizing problems? Many ICE cars have tried to minimise the use of their rear brakes, by a variety of mechanisms, like pressure valves in the rear brake hydraulic lines. The results have typically been that light footed drivers make no use of their rear brakes at all, and they rust and seize up.
Parking brakes typically operate the rear brakes, so they would get cycled.
Who uses the parking brake regularly in an automatic (yes, I know, people who live on a steep slope)? Parking brakes are not used in motion, and the mechanism for parking is often completely separate from the mechanism for foot braking. So, using the parking break doesn't keep cleaning corrosion of the discs, and may not exercise the hydraulic mechanism.
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The discs on my GTE hybrid frequently show rust. I do make sure to use the physical brakes from time to time to keep them clean now, as I had to replace the discs and pads all around at 69,000 miles / 5 years as all discs had signs of corrosion.
Teslas seem to have a brake wipe function which seemlessly applies braking torque periodically, while adjusting drive motor torque to compensate. Presumably this keeps the discs free of contamination/water. Not sure if other vehicles use this too. I wonder what the net effect on range is but it probably doesn't require much energy to keep the discs clear of surface contaminants.
Park brake on my car is electronic and just actuates the rear calipers with a cable actuation. As far as I can tell it is essentially an electric "hand brake", pulling the braking cable with an electronic actuator instead of the approach which some cars use which is to have a separate motor/brake caliper on the rear discs.
In 'D' mode (coast/drive instead of regen/drive) the car still regenerates energy, but does this when heading downhill only. In other words, if it can recuperate some energy but maintain your speed, it will do so (although it's not true cruise control, it appears to make some pessimistic assumptions about drag and weight and tends to accelerate a little more than coast.) Disappointingly, I found this is deleted from e-Golf and ID3; I've found it quite useful when driving on the motorway. Of course, you can still use ACC if you want but that's not always appropriate in inclement weather.
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I like the Tesla "auto brake disc clean" idea. Basically, it seems it is good for the brakes to get hot once in a while. If you live in a hilly area, this is likely to be less of a problem than if you are always driving in slow traffic and coasting to stops. Obviously an old school ICE car is much less likely to have problems like this, but you can still see how "careful" drivers (e.g. Mrs. SilverSolder) gets much worse brake rust issues than more ahem, "sporty" drivers (cough). :D
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What difference does it make if the rotors get some corrasion/rust on them? First application of the brakes would remove the corrasion.
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What difference does it make if the rotors get some corrasion/rust on them? First application of the brakes would remove the corrasion.
Two problems there. One is the corrosion on a rarely unused rotor can get very deep (been there. done that.). The other is if your first use in ages is an emergency stop, you don't want the stop extended as you scrub off the rust and finally get a good grip.
As I said earlier, its not just the rotor that is an issue. In ICE cars where the rear brakes are only used for heavy braking there is a history of light footed drivers having the breaking mechanisms seize.
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What difference does it make if the rotors get some corrasion/rust on them? First application of the brakes would remove the corrasion.
Two problems there. One is the corrosion on a rarely unused rotor can get very deep (been there. done that.). The other is if your first use in ages is an emergency stop, you don't want the stop extended as you scrub off the rust and finally get a good grip.
As I said earlier, its not just the rotor that is an issue. In ICE cars where the rear brakes are only used for heavy braking there is a history of light footed drivers having the breaking mechanisms seize.
Still not following you. What difference does it make if the corrasion is deep? The pads will wear to the new shape.
Hard to believe the first breaking one has to make is an emergency stop when exiting a garage or a parking space. One or two applications of the brakes remove the corrosion.
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On many modern cars, the rotors have become part of the "male jewelry" and clearly visible inside the alloy wheels - So you don't want these things to look bad.
After rain come the puddles that you drive through... if the rotors aren't warm, the spray water never "boils off" and you end up parking the vehicle with wet rotors = guaranteed rust.
On an EV with high regen ability, it is quite conceivable that the friction brakes barely get used at all, if the driver is very "smooth" and the environment doesn't have hills - would be interesting to measure the rotor temperatures after a drive! Somehow, I think the rotors on a V8 musclecar might be warmer after a drive than the rotors on a HEV or EV! :D
That said, even an ICE car could use this kind of system, for the rear brakes only (and parking brakes!). One benefit of electric/electronic parking brakes is that they actually get used (by the computer, not the driver) so they are less likely to seize. Of course, a human driver that actually uses the hand brake daily is unlikely to have big issues with this either... but rust never sleeps...
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The rotors on my car are almost always cool to the touch on longer trips.
When on "hill hold"/"auto hold" my car doesn't seem to use the parking brake, for whatever reason. It just holds the regular braking circuit on using the iBooster. You can manually actuate the parking brake which the car will turn off automatically when you set off, seemlessly. So I've no idea why it doesn't do this, perhaps they are concerned about the reliability of frequently driving the brake calipers with the park brake actuator?
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Try measuring them after 1 stop from 50mph... They will have soaked up a noticeable amount of energy.
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I like the Tesla "auto brake disc clean" idea. Basically, it seems it is good for the brakes to get hot once in a while. If you live in a hilly area, this is likely to be less of a problem than if you are always driving in slow traffic and coasting to stops. Obviously an old school ICE car is much less likely to have problems like this, but you can still see how "careful" drivers (e.g. Mrs. SilverSolder) gets much worse brake rust issues than more ahem, "sporty" drivers (cough). :D
A lot of cars scrub the rotors during driving. It's a pretty old idea. Also rust on the rotors doesn't matter because virtually any braking will clean it up. Your bigger issue would be seizing calipers but as long as maintenance is done regularly it also shouldn't be an issue.
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I like the Tesla "auto brake disc clean" idea. Basically, it seems it is good for the brakes to get hot once in a while. If you live in a hilly area, this is likely to be less of a problem than if you are always driving in slow traffic and coasting to stops. Obviously an old school ICE car is much less likely to have problems like this, but you can still see how "careful" drivers (e.g. Mrs. SilverSolder) gets much worse brake rust issues than more ahem, "sporty" drivers (cough). :D
A lot of cars scrub the rotors during driving. It's a pretty old idea. Also rust on the rotors doesn't matter because virtually any braking will clean it up. Your bigger issue would be seizing calipers but as long as maintenance is done regularly it also shouldn't be an issue.
If you live in a cold, salted roads climate, and you have a "stable" of older cars, you begin to appreciate well made rotors over the "cast crap" ones... the good ones will last 2x or 3x the life of the bad ones, and the worst ones... the worst ones I've had, actually rusted to near uselessness in one year!
I'm a big fan of the Bosch coated rotors, they really last well out of the (many) brands I have tried, and don't cost much more than the "cast crap".
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A lot of cars scrub the rotors during driving. It's a pretty old idea. Also rust on the rotors doesn't matter because virtually any braking will clean it up. Your bigger issue would be seizing calipers but as long as maintenance is done regularly it also shouldn't be an issue.
If that has been your experience I assume you live in a dry climate. Its not the experience many of us have. Its quite common for rust to build up faster than braking can clean it off if the car is not used heavily.
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It will be with the exhaust valves open. Compressing air 9:1 generates a lot of heat taking energy out of the system.
Doesn't letting that air expand absorb most of that same heat? Obviously this is not 100% efficient but nothing is. With the valves open there will be pumping losses due to the restrictions, with the valves closed there will be increased friction losses due to the greater mechanical forces on the pistons and crank but some of the energy used compressing the air will be recovered as the air expands.
Yep, some of the energy expended in compressing the air on the upstroke will be recovered on the downstroke. Proof of this is diesel engines in large trucks that have an exhaust brake. The details vary, but many have an arrangement where the exhaust valve is opened at the very top of the 22:1 compression stroke and the compressed air and associated energy simply roars out, hence the characteristic sound made when the exhaust brake is used. I've read that the exhaust brake when activated can absorb roughly the same amount of horsepower that the engine can produce. So logically, if the compressed air is retained and allowed to expand on the downstroke, much of the energy in the compressed air is recovered.
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Just tried an experiment with my Volt. According to Volt's Energy meter on the dash, when coasting (foot off the accelerator and the break), it show regen breaking is occurring and the energy is flowing to the battery.
When using the brake pedal going down a hill, if I lightly apply the breaks energy is flowing to the batteries. As I apply more pressure on the brakes regen braking continues. I would expect to reach a point where the regen system is maxed out and the brake pads take over. Couldn't really find that spot.
Lesson I learned from my little experiment is can't tell when regen braking is maxed out and the brake pads take over.
On my PHEV outlander when the battery is fully charged you can really feel the difference in braking. The regen is minimal.
Try it on your volt.
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Just tried it in my Volt and you are right. When the battery is fully charged regen braking can have you sailing through red lights if you are thinking about it.
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Just tried it in my Volt and you are right. When the battery is fully charged regen braking can have you sailing through red lights if you are thinking about it.
The Volt doesn't seem very sophisticated. The computers don't seem to dynamically work the disc brakes and regenerative braking for optimal results. More recent cars seem to take the driver's foot input and apply braking in a reasonably optimal manner. If the battery is full you still get the same braking effect, but it is achieved inefficiently through the disc pads. Obviously, if the car is set up to give regenerative braking just by lifting your foot from the accelerator, there isn't a lot the car can do about that when the battery is full. I don't think anyone is apply disc braking just on a raised foot, so you will feel an obvious difference when you raise your foot.
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This is for the Volt. When the battery is fully charged and the regen braking paddle on the steering wheel is used the regen braking is unpredictable. Sometimes when you pull on the paddle there is almost no braking. Must be when the battery is fully charged? Other times it seems like there is some heavier braking, but then it lets up. This making me think the braking is heavier until the battery reaches “full charge” and then there is no regen braking.
I use the regen braking paddle when I drive. When I leave my house I travel downhill and have to stop at two stop signs. There are times I forget the battery is at full charge and the regen braking doesn’t do mush and I have to slam on the brakes. Other times there is regen braking and then in the middle of slowing down the regen braking all of a sudden stop which means again I have to slam on the brakes.
This is actually somewhat dangerous as when regen braking will brake and when it won’t is unpredictable.
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Having driven at least 10 EVs in various forms, I can't think of any one that applies brakes to emulate regen on the accelerator pedal alone. Whereas they do tend to all, bar the MG ZS EV, emulate similar braking performance on the brake pedal regardless of regen being available or not.
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Having driven at least 10 EVs in various forms, I can't think of any one that applies brakes to emulate regen on the accelerator pedal alone. Whereas they do tend to all, bar the MG ZS EV, emulate similar braking performance on the brake pedal regardless of regen being available or not.
You must not have driven the BMW, then. There are videos of people driving the BMW in cities such as London and show how they can drive and never use the brakes. If you take you foot off the accelerator the car brakes.
https://youtu.be/WjkYcnsXK7U
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Yes, but that's regen braking
What I mean is I don't think any car I've ever driven emulates braking on the accelerator pedal alone - i.e. the physical brakes are only actuated by the brake pedal (or adaptive cruise control and emergency stop functions, if fitted.) The regen availability therefore depends on battery SoC, so drivers need to be aware of that if they depend on the accelerator only braking.
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Yes, but that's regen braking
What I mean is I don't think any car I've ever driven emulates braking on the accelerator pedal alone - i.e. the physical brakes are only actuated by the brake pedal (or adaptive cruise control and emergency stop functions, if fitted.) The regen availability therefore depends on battery SoC, so drivers need to be aware of that if they depend on the accelerator only braking.
I've seen video of a second gen Leaf in one pedal driving mode stop on a gentle incline just by raising the driver's foot. Maybe the car does almost all its stopping using regen, but it appears to use the disc brakes to finally stop in a well controlled manner and hold its position. Having the computers use the disc brakes automatically for various driver assist functions - adaptive cruise, hill start assist, etc - is becoming normal on ICE cars. I'd be surprised if nobody is using this to augment regenerative braking in an electric car.
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Not sure about Nissan's technology there. I know Tesla have the capability to bring the car to a stop using the motor alone (on Model 3/Y using switched reluctance motors). Just at the point where regen braking begins to fade (sub 3 mph) the drive unit switches to a stepper motor mode to bring the vehicle to a total stop with a small negative torque applied.
The auto-hold function on my car is pretty seamless so I don't see an urgent need for this kind of technology, but I suspect it could make the brake pads and components last longer if the motor is doing almost all the braking.
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The most sensible control scheme for regenerative braking is the brake-by-wire brake pedal used on the Prius. I’m pretty sure that most hybrids and EVs use the same control scheme. Since the braking computer is constantly blending the regenerative and friction brakes, there should be no surprises when regenerative braking is unavailable.
The glaring exception is Tesla where regenerative braking is controlled with the accelerator pedal alone. It’s unsafe to train drivers to rarely use the brake pedal. It’s unsafe to have unpredictable braking force due to the condition of the battery. But since Tesla is the market leader, other EV makers are copying this control scheme. Hopefully, none of them are crazy enough to remove the Prius-style brake pedal.
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hmm, nope. From 35 000km, I can say it's not unsafe at all. You use the mechanical brake at least 1-2 times a week, for different reasons, so the reflex really never goes away.
Single pedal driving is really a good experience. it's the future. Or should I say, the present.
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hmm, nope. From 35 000km, I can say it's not unsafe at all. You use the mechanical brake at least 1-2 times a week, for different reasons, so the reflex really never goes away.
Single pedal driving is really a good experience. it's the future. Or should I say, the present.
There will be drivers that prefer "free wheeling" gas pedals, and others that prefer it to provide engine braking (or its electrical equivalent). Why not make it configurable?
It was configurable in 1960's Saabs... the driver pulled a little lever, and it engaged or disengaged a freewheeling clutch... unique feature, never seen it in any other car... but very cool!
It is also configurable in my Ford hybrid. Leave it in "Drive", and it freewheels. Put it in "Low", and it slows when you let off the accelerator, simulating engine braking.
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hmm, nope. From 35 000km, I can say it's not unsafe at all. You use the mechanical brake at least 1-2 times a week, for different reasons, so the reflex really never goes away.
Single pedal driving is really a good experience. it's the future. Or should I say, the present.
Okay, "unsafe" might be a bit over the top. It is "less" safe in the same way as cruise control. One-pedal driving is a convenience feature that improves driver comfort. Still, I'm not happy about the unpredictable diminished regenerative braking response when the battery is full or too cold.
What really annoys me about Tesla's implementation is that they do not offer brake pedal control of regenerative braking at all. It does not take away from one-pedal driving to offer it as well.
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The glaring exception is Tesla where regenerative braking is controlled with the accelerator pedal alone. It’s unsafe to train drivers to rarely use the brake pedal. It’s unsafe to have unpredictable braking force due to the condition of the battery. But since Tesla is the market leader, other EV makers are copying this control scheme. Hopefully, none of them are crazy enough to remove the Prius-style brake pedal.
I disagree quite strongly. In fact I think the default behaviour of a car should be to decelerate reasonably strongly if the accelerator is not applied.
For one, it encourages efficient driving and pacing and planning. Pressing the brake pedal is "losing" the efficiency game, for at least some friction braking is applied.
Secondly, there are benefits in that the car is under more control from the driver, they can slow down immediately with just lifting off the accelerator, it's like always being in the engine braking region of a manual gearbox. The 'coast-only' behaviour of many automatics is undesirable in this sense; drivers are alternating between the accel. and brake pedal all the time, which also leads to a sea of brake lights in traffic jams. Completely unnecessary.
Thirdly, there is a safety benefit. Let's say you pass out while driving and your foot is now off the accelerator (most people can't keep pressure applied when they are unconscious.) At least the car will come to a stop whereas many modern non-EVs will continue to creep or coast for a considerable amount of time.
Finally, it will mean brake pads, discs and other components will last longer and fuel/electric economy should be improved. There are also benefits to reducing traffic jams as we get less 'snaking' from brake lights under even modest braking.
I would say in case of regen being unavailable the car should emulate the same regen using the physical brakes, it would be nice to see an indication of this on the dashboard e.g. the regen zone on the LCD turning white instead of green.
There will be drivers that prefer "free wheeling" gas pedals, and others that prefer it to provide engine braking (or its electrical equivalent). Why not make it configurable?
Many EVs and hybrids provide this with a "B" setting vs. a "D" setting. Certainly the Prius, Leaf, Golf GTE and e-Golf offer coast vs regen modes on the pedal. The only thing that annoys me about this is on my car, it always starts in 'D' mode, but I've learned to press the gearstick down twice when I start driving to put it in 'B' mode. I pretty much always drive in 'B' mode, only using 'D' occasionally on the motorway to improve efficiency.
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There will be drivers that prefer "free wheeling" gas pedals, and others that prefer it to provide engine braking (or its electrical equivalent). Why not make it configurable?
Many EVs and hybrids provide this with a "B" setting vs. a "D" setting. Certainly the Prius, Leaf, Golf GTE and e-Golf offer coast vs regen modes on the pedal. The only thing that annoys me about this is on my car, it always starts in 'D' mode, but I've learned to press the gearstick down twice when I start driving to put it in 'B' mode. I pretty much always drive in 'B' mode, only using 'D' occasionally on the motorway to improve efficiency.
Have you actually measured the difference in fuel economy? All my attempts to measure showed a small advantage to the free-wheeling mode (combined with never using the brakes)! :D
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It was configurable in 1960's Saabs... the driver pulled a little lever, and it engaged or disengaged a freewheeling clutch... unique feature, never seen it in any other car... but very cool!
No, freewheel capability was integral to all cars fitted with optional overdrive units (extra selectable intermediate ratio epicyclic gear after the manual gearbox) back in those days - many Fords among others. They were made by Borg Warner, first developed in the 1930s and last used in a 1972 Ford model. They had a switch to enable the overdrive ratio and a mechanical lever to engage the unit (so that you could reverse!). I remember the one on my Dad's Ford Zodiac.
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There will be drivers that prefer "free wheeling" gas pedals, and others that prefer it to provide engine braking (or its electrical equivalent). Why not make it configurable?
Many EVs and hybrids provide this with a "B" setting vs. a "D" setting. Certainly the Prius, Leaf, Golf GTE and e-Golf offer coast vs regen modes on the pedal. The only thing that annoys me about this is on my car, it always starts in 'D' mode, but I've learned to press the gearstick down twice when I start driving to put it in 'B' mode. I pretty much always drive in 'B' mode, only using 'D' occasionally on the motorway to improve efficiency.
Have you actually measured the difference in fuel economy? All my attempts to measure showed a small advantage to the free-wheeling mode (combined with never using the brakes)! :D
It's really down to physics. If driving manually, and not using the cruise control, lifting off the pedal results in immediate braking which often isn't needed on the highway. Regen braking is always less efficient than coasting if you do not need to decelerate as quickly as regen allows, because regen only recovers about ~50-70% of the kinetic energy.
When using ACC, behaviour is very slightly modified - the car will coast for a bit longer before applying the physical brakes if it gets too close to a car, whereas in 'B' mode it will brake almost immediately. Also, if it is overspeed (e.g. you adjust the speed down for going into roadworks) it will brake using regen in 'B', whereas in the 'D' mode, it will coast and wait for the speed to reach the setpoint, which is more efficient if you can plan ahead! I am surprised they went so far as to make this subtle modification, as it is not documented anywhere, but it is a nice distinction between the two modes. I tend to use the 'B' mode with ACC on country roads where braking is more common due to traffic levels, and 'D' mode on highways where braking is uncommon.
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It was configurable in 1960's Saabs... the driver pulled a little lever, and it engaged or disengaged a freewheeling clutch... unique feature, never seen it in any other car... but very cool!
No, freewheel capability was integral to all cars fitted with optional overdrive units (extra selectable intermediate ratio epicyclic gear after the manual gearbox) back in those days - many Fords among others. They were made by Borg Warner, first developed in the 1930s and last used in a 1972 Ford model. They had a switch to enable the overdrive ratio and a mechanical lever to engage the unit (so that you could reverse!). I remember the one on my Dad's Ford Zodiac.
Saab had a special thing going on, with a freewheeling clutch. I've had the pleasure of driving one, it is really rather unique.
"An unusual feature of the Saab drivetrain was a 'freewheel' (overrunning clutch). This allowed the transmission to run faster than the engine, such as when decelerating, or descending a long hill."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_96 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_96)
If I remember correctly, the 2 stroke models had it permanently enabled, but the V4 4-stroke models definitely had it configurable with a small T-shaped handle down by the floor...
You can hear it in use in this video clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBptAKPK-6s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBptAKPK-6s)
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It was configurable in 1960's Saabs... the driver pulled a little lever, and it engaged or disengaged a freewheeling clutch... unique feature, never seen it in any other car... but very cool!
No, freewheel capability was integral to all cars fitted with optional overdrive units (extra selectable intermediate ratio epicyclic gear after the manual gearbox) back in those days - many Fords among others. They were made by Borg Warner, first developed in the 1930s and last used in a 1972 Ford model. They had a switch to enable the overdrive ratio and a mechanical lever to engage the unit (so that you could reverse!). I remember the one on my Dad's Ford Zodiac.
Saab had a special thing going on, with a freewheeling clutch. I've had the pleasure of driving one, it is really rather unique.
"An unusual feature of the Saab drivetrain was a 'freewheel' (overrunning clutch). This allowed the transmission to run faster than the engine, such as when decelerating, or descending a long hill."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_96 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_96)
If I remember correctly, the 2 stroke models had it permanently enabled, but the V4 4-stroke models definitely had it configurable with a small T-shaped handle down by the floor...
You can hear it in use in this video clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBptAKPK-6s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBptAKPK-6s)
Such devices were "all the go" in the 1930s, but they were mostly ditched for conventional systems, due to poor reliability & concern about lack of "engine braking".
That decade was one of great automotive innovation, much of which came to nothing.
One of the 1930s Singer cars had a transmission you could use in no fewer than three modes,------ as a conventional manual, a manual with automatic clutch, & a preselector.
It also had "Startex" ignition--------if your engine stalled, it would automatically re-start.
All this, without a microprocesser in sight! (unless you were a time traveller).
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[...]
Such devices were "all the go" in the 1930s, but they were mostly ditched for conventional systems, due to poor reliability & concern about lack of "engine braking".
That decade was one of great automotive innovation, much of which came to nothing.
One of the 1930s Singer cars had a transmission you could use in no fewer than three modes,------ as a conventional manual, a manual with automatic clutch, & a preselector.
It also had "Startex" ignition--------if your engine stalled, it would automatically re-start.
All this, without a microprocesser in sight! (unless you were a time traveller).
The Saab freewheeling system was put in specifically to avoid drivers using the 2-stroke engine for engine braking, which could starve it of lubrication and caused excessive wear. Being a Saab, their system was obviously well engineered and generally reliable. The funny thing is, when they moved on to 4-stroke engines in the later part of the 60's, they kept the free wheeling feature... most likely because Saab drivers were used to it being there and would have considered it a retrograde step to remove it!
It is funny to study vintage cars and see all the crazy things they were trying to do back in the day. In the early motoring epoch, there was much more variety. Nowadays, cars have converged to a standard formula - accelerator, brake, and clutch always in the same order, most controls are similar, transmissions are very samey, etc.
The convergence was probably mostly complete already by the 70's?
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Ah the good old days of gross polluting winning would of a 2-stroke engine. I think there’s a reason we moved on from that technology.
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Ah the good old days of gross polluting winning would of a 2-stroke engine. I think there’s a reason we moved on from that technology.
Yep, but you can't beat the sound effects! :D
Two strokes are still used in some applications - chain saws, leaf blowers, strimmers, etc. - it's going to be hard to dislodge them from that last stronghold, nothing beats their power-to-weight ratio!
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can you please come back to topic ?
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Ah the good old days of gross polluting winning would of a 2-stroke engine. I think there’s a reason we moved on from that technology.
Yep, but you can't beat the sound effects! :D
Two strokes are still used in some applications - chain saws, leaf blowers, strimmers, etc. - it's going to be hard to dislodge them from that last stronghold, nothing beats their power-to-weight ratio!
Larger diesel engines (as found on ships) are also 2 stroke. But yes, chains saws and strimmer should be electrified. Leaf blowers are the worst invention ever. What about the good old broom?
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Electric chain saws work very well until you accidentally cut the power cord. I have one for use around my property. Prefer it over the gas one. Electric and battery chain saws will never replace electric. I can’t see someone 100 feet up a tree with a 100 foot extension cord. Or your 100 feet up a tree when the battery on your chain saw dies. Other issue with electric chain saws is I just can’t seem to find an outlet in the wooded part of my property.
Issue with a broom is the just don’t work as well or as quickly as a leaf blower. I have an electric leaf blower and in 5 minutes I can clean an area that would take 45 minutes to sweep. While I’m not a fan of the noisy gas powered ones, I do understand there usefulness.
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Electric chain saws work very well until you accidentally cut the power cord. I have one for use around my property. Prefer it over the gas one. Electric and battery chain saws will never replace electric. I can’t see someone 100 feet up a tree with a 100 foot extension cord. Or your 100 feet up a tree when the battery on your chain saw dies. Other issue with electric chain saws is I just can’t seem to find an outlet in the wooded part of my property.
Issue with a broom is the just don’t work as well or as quickly as a leaf blower. I have an electric leaf blower and in 5 minutes I can clean an area that would take 45 minutes to sweep. While I’m not a fan of the noisy gas powered ones, I do understand there usefulness.
There are some really excellent battery powered garden tools these days, although the good ones aren't cheap. I used a battery powered hedge trimmer some time ago, that was pretty hopeless when it met a thick branch. Recently I used my neighbour's new Stihl battery powered hedge trimmers to trim some shared hedging. They just keep going when they encounter a really thick branch, just like a gas or mains powered one would. The battery seems to last a long time, too. I was trimming for about 40 or 50 minutes, without flattening the battery. I was very impressed by everything except the price. :)
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Electric chain saws work very well until you accidentally cut the power cord. I have one for use around my property. Prefer it over the gas one. Electric and battery chain saws will never replace electric. I can’t see someone 100 feet up a tree with a 100 foot extension cord. Or your 100 feet up a tree when the battery on your chain saw dies. Other issue with electric chain saws is I just can’t seem to find an outlet in the wooded part of my property.
Issue with a broom is the just don’t work as well or as quickly as a leaf blower. I have an electric leaf blower and in 5 minutes I can clean an area that would take 45 minutes to sweep. While I’m not a fan of the noisy gas powered ones, I do understand there usefulness.
There are some really excellent battery powered garden tools these days, although the good ones aren't cheap. I used a battery powered hedge trimmer some time ago, that was pretty hopeless when it met a thick branch. Recently I used my neighbour's new Stihl battery powered hedge trimmers to trim some shared hedging. They just keep going when they encounter a really thick branch, just like a gas or mains powered one would. The battery seems to last a long time, too. I was trimming for about 40 or 50 minutes, without flattening the battery. I was very impressed by everything except the price. :)
I agree with you completely. But there’s a difference between home owners cutting tree branches/hedges ever so often vs. someone who does it for 8 hour every day. I can’t see someone who cuts trees professionally using a battery chainsaw.
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Electric chain saws work very well until you accidentally cut the power cord. I have one for use around my property. Prefer it over the gas one. Electric and battery chain saws will never replace electric. I can’t see someone 100 feet up a tree with a 100 foot extension cord. Or your 100 feet up a tree when the battery on your chain saw dies. Other issue with electric chain saws is I just can’t seem to find an outlet in the wooded part of my property.
Issue with a broom is the just don’t work as well or as quickly as a leaf blower. I have an electric leaf blower and in 5 minutes I can clean an area that would take 45 minutes to sweep. While I’m not a fan of the noisy gas powered ones, I do understand there usefulness.
New invention. Battery powered leaf blower.
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Ah the good old days of gross polluting winning would of a 2-stroke engine. I think there’s a reason we moved on from that technology.
Yep, but you can't beat the sound effects! :D
Two strokes are still used in some applications - chain saws, leaf blowers, strimmers, etc. - it's going to be hard to dislodge them from that last stronghold, nothing beats their power-to-weight ratio!
Larger diesel engines (as found on ships) are also 2 stroke. But yes, chains saws and strimmer should be electrified. Leaf blowers are the worst invention ever. What about the good old broom?
A broom? - ...it already takes me two hours to clear the leaves on a bad day - using 2 different leaf blowers, one of them a 5hp 4 stroke on wheels, the other a 2 stroke hand-held. It would take a whole weekend to do that with a broom, if not more!
I have to fill the fuel tank twice on the handheld to finish the job... Electric versions of these tools are not really viable once the size of the job gets to a certain level, with unrealistically long and heavy gauge extension cords, or short-lived batteries.
I would love a fusion powered electric version though, to do the whole thing in 5 minutes! :D
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But there’s a difference between home owners cutting tree branches/hedges ever so often vs. someone who does it for 8 hour every day. I can’t see someone who cuts trees professionally using a battery chainsaw.
Certainly not for clear felling or skid duties but the tree climbing arborists are embracing battery powered saws.
New brushless motors with their lightweight and efficiencies are opening up a whole list of new use cases.
No air filters, no fuel filters, no recoil starter, fuel and/or contamination issues, spark ignition/plug problems and low noise.
What's not to like ?
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But there’s a difference between home owners cutting tree branches/hedges ever so often vs. someone who does it for 8 hour every day. I can’t see someone who cuts trees professionally using a battery chainsaw.
Certainly not for clear felling or skid duties but the tree climbing arborists are embracing battery powered saws.
New brushless motors with their lightweight and efficiencies are opening up a whole list of new use cases.
No air filters, no fuel filters, no recoil starter, fuel and/or contamination issues, spark ignition/plug problems and low noise.
What's not to like ?
Apart from having to keep them charged, battery aging is the worst problem, in my experience. All my battery powered electric tools have died from that cause, and they had a long drawn out period of low performance before dying completely. The replacement batteries are so expensive that they are just not worth it, just another assault on your wallet by some cheesy MBA.
So, I have gone back to "old school" corded equipment for all electric tools. They generally last decades and are always "charged". - For the garden, I live with the fact that petrol engines have to be maintained occasionally - and in fairness, it is pretty rare that any of my 5 ICE powered outdoor tools misbehave. What works for me is to always add fuel stabilizer to the jerry can when buying fresh petrol - that stuff really works, I never encounter gummed carbs etc. any more, unlike the "bad old days".
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That’s the issue with battery powered tools.
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First generation Volt here and charging has suddenly become a HUGE issue after an EF-4 tornado displaced us to a home with no driveway, thus no charging. Further compounding this, the pipeline hack made gas prices double while the 2013 Volt takes Premium too.
Actually, it is my brother’s car since my own was carried off by the tornado before getting crushed under a tree. We are relying on his car more than ever and yet it’s harder than ever to keep it charged. Luckily the temporary home is only 0.6 miles (1 kilometer) from a public charger at City Hall but we’ve already got nastygrams from people complaining that we hog it and it’s only available after business hours. Also, even that short trip often adds up to hours spent walking each day when we definitely don’t have that time to spare. :(
I had to spend my car insurance check on medical bills for a tornado injury so I couldn’t afford another and had to get an electric kick scooter to get my brother to and from the public chargers. He just puts the car on charge, pulls the folding scooter out of the hatch, then scoots home. When the car’s charged he scoots back at up to 18.6 miles per hour (30KPH). The range and relative speed compared to walking enables him to use more chargers, further away. For example, there is a free public charger at a nearby park about twice as far with the opposite schedule from the one at City Hall (better get your car before the gates close at night!). There is another at a nearby aluminum extrusion plant that seems to be totally free and always available. When I have the car I might park it across the road from work where you can charge at Target free for the first two hours, then I will scoot back over and get it on my break.
What I recently realized is that the range and affordability of eBikes and eScooters means that a lot of people will be buying these instead of an electric car or truck. For some, a gas vehicle becomes a secondary utility vehicle like you might treat a pickup truck or a minivan that isn’t always needed and often stays parked until you occasionally need it (rain, groceries, etc). Indeed, their respective markets have embraced electric faster than cars or motorcycles that try to be too much. All you really need is wheels, a motor, battery, controls, and a place to fit the rider. Adding enough to make it a full-fledged motorcycle, car, or truck, ends up making it expensive and compares badly in some ways to traditional motorcycles, cars, and trucks (refueling infrastructure, for one).
This “Fortnine” guy gets it:
https://youtu.be/O2zlYpy6QCM
Now, that isn’t to say I haven’t struggled with it. It broke down on me the very second time I needed to commute all the way home from work and it was under a month old. Also, I had extreme tire wear with nearly no tread left on the front tire even though the back tire looks new... and the back is the one that you literally rub the tread to stop! I also developed a stem wobble that I had to fix.
The breakdown was caused by a bad connection with the external battery pack. I couldn’t find my tools after the tornado to it took several days but I cleaned the connection from the black carbon/oxidation, added dielectric grease, and it began working perfectly again.
My specific model is the Segway Ninebot ES3 Plus, which has identical specs to an ES4. It probably is an ES4 rebadged for Costco since no one else sells that model but they seemed to disappear from their app/website and my local store over a month ago. Well, ES4 is still around even if the ES3 Plus was just a flash in the pan. :)
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Hey, I recently got a Renault Zoé (For those playing at home, it's a 2017 41 kW.h Q90). For the moment, it's great ! Mostly charging at home (slow 2.2 kW) or on public chargers (22 kW).
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Hey, I recently got a Renault Zoé (For those playing at home, it's a 2017 41 kW.h Q90). For the moment, it's great ! Mostly charging at home (slow 2.2 kW) or on public chargers (22 kW).
I looked inside one of those for the first time last week. Its surprisingly roomy length wise, but uncomfortably narrow. Has it been designed that narrow to keep it's drag down, because another 100mm to 150mm of width would make it a much more comfortable car.
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I hadn't thought the Zoe particularly narrow, feels pretty much the same as any other modern car of that general style to me (i.e. kinda wide compared to the 90s/early 2000s cars I grew up with).
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my experience has been great
[attach=1]
I love that it's easy to fix and i can put my e trike in it
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What needs to be fixed all the time?
zip tied license plate hehe. In my first year of driving, I got pulled over in mt parent;s car for wired on, not bolted plate, a shock hanging in the breeze (a mechanic friend had replaced them days before.
Not sure if in my state, I could have zip tied a plate to my Tesla S. Biggest repair, Tesla did it in my driveway was the front bracket fell off on the highway after a local shop repainted the bumper after a valet parker bashed it up.
What needs fixing on your electric?
4 years, out of warranty now. Let the fun begin. (wallet quivering).
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Hey, I recently got a Renault Zoé (For those playing at home, it's a 2017 41 kW.h Q90). For the moment, it's great ! Mostly charging at home (slow 2.2 kW) or on public chargers (22 kW).
I looked inside one of those for the first time last week. Its surprisingly roomy length wise, but uncomfortably narrow. Has it been designed that narrow to keep it's drag down, because another 100mm to 150mm of width would make it a much more comfortable car.
I got a new ZOE (R110 zen - 52kWh) last month. It is a bit wider and longer than my previous Honda Jazz but I've got the feeling that the ZOE is less roomy inside.
I've driven it for just 300kms, but so far looks great and ... eats just 12,9kWh/100km... not so hungry... :)
I charged it just once at 230VAC 10A (Heidelberg wall box).
Now I'd like to find a solution for the proximity key security (lack of)... any idea? Enclose it in a Faraday cage ? :)
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On my Zoe (2016) if you lock it with the button it disables the proximity stuff until you start the car with the key in the slot.
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On my Zoe (2016) if you lock it with the button it disables the proximity stuff until you start the car with the key in the slot.
The new ZOE has no button on the door handle (unless you are referring to the buttons on the key-card).
Anyway as far as I can remember one can still disable the proximity function (I've to check the manual yet).
Unless I've misunderstood that, while a proximity key hack (Relay Station Attack) requires two people and allows to start the car, cloning the open/close door code might be even simpler (but it would be more difficult to start the car).
In any case I've seen that even an aluminium foil makes the proximity key unable to open the car.
Probably the best solution depends on the circumstances.
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On my Zoe (2016) if you lock it with the button it disables the proximity stuff until you start the car with the key in the slot.
The new ZOE has no button on the door handle (unless you are referring to the buttons on the key-card).
Anyway as far as I can remember one can still disable the proximity function (I've to check the manual yet).
Sorry, I wasn't very clear, on the older Zoe if you use the lock button on the remote to lock the car, it temporarily disables proximity. This is documented in the manual. On my Zoe the remote has 4 buttons and an emergency key - lock, unlock, A/C, and charge-flap.
I guess the new Zoe replaces the door handle button with some sort of capacitive touch sensor but is otherwise similar?
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Sorry, I wasn't very clear, on the older Zoe if you use the lock button on the remote to lock the car, it temporarily disables proximity. This is documented in the manual. On my Zoe the remote has 4 buttons and an emergency key - lock, unlock, A/C, and charge-flap.
I guess the new Zoe replaces the door handle button with some sort of capacitive touch sensor but is otherwise similar?
The new remote has unlock, lock, switch on car lights, trunk-unlock buttons.
I found the manual has several errors and/or is outdated... e.g. press twice the lock button to open the car and close the windows :-//
I've not tried yet, but that makes no sense... they probably meant close the car and the windows...
The unlock button should also work to disengage the charge cable.
I've not got enough time to test all the car features yet...
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I wonder if it's a translation problem, I've noticed a few of those (perverse English-language warning messages for example). Surprising for such a major manufacturer. Perhaps it's worth seeing if the French section of the manual is clearer?
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I wonder if it's a translation problem, I've noticed a few of those (perverse English-language warning messages for example). Surprising for such a major manufacturer. Perhaps it's worth seeing if the French section of the manual is clearer?
I googled for an updated manual but there is none. Besides that I could not find any way to close the car windows when locking the car. A double press on the lock button does nothing.
I've ordered the renault burglar arlarm and rear view camera accessories. I'd better check everything and make a list of the ineffective features so when I'll bring the car to the dealer to assemble those accessories and will ask them what is wrong.
OK I got the English manual (they gave me the Italian one of course):
Pressing the 4 button twice locks the
vehicle and enables the closure of the
front and rear windows (depending on
the vehicle).
[attachimg=1]
so I guess my ZOE (R110 ZEN) just lacks the windows closure feature...
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Driving a 2021 Renault Captur E-Tech 160 now, which is a plug-in hybrid: 1.6 petrol engine, two EV motors and a 9.6kWh battery. The EV range is about 30 miles but it's quite efficient in hybrid mode, doing 50-55mpg. As a comparison, in similar scenarios my previous car (BMW 318d) did around 45mpg and the other car (BMW 335i convertible) does about 15mpg :).
Charging time is about 3 hours which is not ideal, especially as I can't charge at home and public chargers around here aren't properly managed (=most don't work).
As for it being a Renault, you can expect the typical "cheap" feel, the most frustrating being the slooooow touchscreen system. Boot space is small but at least the driving position is OK even for a big guy like me (1m97 or 6'5" for those playing along in non metric system countries).
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...a 9.6kWh battery. The EV range is about 30 miles...
Charging time is about 3 hours which is not ideal...
30 miles on a 9.6 kWh battery feels a little low to me, but it depends how you drive I guess. 3 hour charging would imply charging at about 3 kW? Really, not even 7 kW? That's a bit pants, fine for overnight for those people who can but as you say pretty poor for making use of public chargers.
the most frustrating being the slooooow touchscreen system.
Still?! There was me thinking the more recent Renaults would have sorted this by now.
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Well, the "pure EV" range of 30 miles is really urban range, as over 40mph (I think) the ICE kicks in anyway and it goes in hybrid mode. It is charging at 3.6kW unfortunately, not ideal as most public chargers around here suport 7kW. It also has a Sport mode where the ICE acts as a generator and tries to charge the battery as much as possible, even idles at considerably higher rpm.
Yes, the touchscreen still slow. It could use a major software update also, doesn't even remember important settings / preferences for different users (like mirror position, dashboard arrangement, sound settings etc), important settings are hidden or not available (like a button to mute the Satnav voice), some physical buttons don't work until the system has fully booted up etc etc.
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It I don't know if Renault have been striving for cost savings or weight saving but it looks as if they have gone a little too far on the ZOE... https://www.itv.com/news/meridian/2021-12-10/car-crash-tests-sees-zero-rating-for-renault-model-but-how-safe-is-your-car (https://www.itv.com/news/meridian/2021-12-10/car-crash-tests-sees-zero-rating-for-renault-model-but-how-safe-is-your-car)
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Euro NCAP safety ratings are extremely misleading lately. They now give points in 4 areas and the overall score is based on the worst of all 4.
Specifically, Zoe got an average score in 3 areas but only 14% for Safety Assist, because it doesn't have auto-braking, lane assist, a speed limit warning/limiter in the menus or rear passenger seatbelt reminder.
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I agree, but deleting a critical airbag is rather dumb when the previous model scored 5 stars. https://www.thecarexpert.co.uk/renault-zoe-slated-for-poor-safety-score/ (https://www.thecarexpert.co.uk/renault-zoe-slated-for-poor-safety-score/)
Sorry, a bit of a diversion, but it triggered a memory from the news the other day. The story also seems to indicate that the (Renault owned) Dacia Spring may be the same car as the ZOE, but with that airbag retained [Edit... so some hope for a recall and retrofit].
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I agree, but deleting a critical airbag is rather dumb when the previous model scored 5 stars. https://www.thecarexpert.co.uk/renault-zoe-slated-for-poor-safety-score/ (https://www.thecarexpert.co.uk/renault-zoe-slated-for-poor-safety-score/)
Sorry, a bit of a diversion, but it triggered a memory from the news the other day. The story also seems to indicate that the (Renault owned) Dacia Spring may be the same car as the ZOE, but with that airbag retained [Edit... so some hope for a recall and retrofit].
I see you scored the part about the Dacia, because having drive-tested it I can confirm these are two very different vehicles.
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Electric chain saws work very well until you accidentally cut the power cord. I have one for use around my property. Prefer it over the gas one. Electric and battery chain saws will never replace electric. I can’t see someone 100 feet up a tree with a 100 foot extension cord. Or your 100 feet up a tree when the battery on your chain saw dies. Other issue with electric chain saws is I just can’t seem to find an outlet in the wooded part of my property.
Issue with a broom is the just don’t work as well or as quickly as a leaf blower. I have an electric leaf blower and in 5 minutes I can clean an area that would take 45 minutes to sweep. While I’m not a fan of the noisy gas powered ones, I do understand there usefulness.
I have the Milwaukee electric "garden" tools including chain saw head. It runs for about 1 to 1 1/2 hour on an old 5Ah Milwaukee battery. It has been used to prune my neighbours lovely leylandii trees hanging over my garden wall. I'm very happy with it.
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I agree, but deleting a critical airbag is rather dumb when the previous model scored 5 stars. https://www.thecarexpert.co.uk/renault-zoe-slated-for-poor-safety-score/ (https://www.thecarexpert.co.uk/renault-zoe-slated-for-poor-safety-score/)
Sorry, a bit of a diversion, but it triggered a memory from the news the other day. The story also seems to indicate that the (Renault owned) Dacia Spring may be the same car as the ZOE, but with that airbag retained [Edit... so some hope for a recall and retrofit].
I see you scored the part about the Dacia, because having drive-tested it I can confirm these are two very different vehicles.
And it couldn't have been "GREAT NEWS" unless it was about the Sandero
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It seems not all are pleased with their EV's:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_9aVzf5fC4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_9aVzf5fC4)
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It seems not all are pleased with their EV's:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_9aVzf5fC4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_9aVzf5fC4)
Finnish Widlarization? :D
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It seems not all are pleased with their EV's:
Finnish Widlarization? :D
At 20,000 Euro for a new battery to replace the dud one, well what would you do ? :popcorn:
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It seems not all are pleased with their EV's:
Finnish Widlarization? :D
At 20,000 Euro for a new battery to replace the dud one, well what would you do ? :popcorn:
Somehow, a tankful of bad fuel seems a little cheaper to fix...
The whole longevity issue is a "thing", that younger people probably won't appreciate until they've experienced it. For example, I like it when my 30 year old leaf blower ($50 Craigslist find) with a 5hp Briggs starts on the first pull (it is just new enough to have electronic ignition, which was a big advance for small engines), and performs like a champ... How will a 30 year old Lithium Ion implement perform, one wonders?
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Single module replacement a third party costs much less.
Tanking in gas in a diesel car can also cost 20 000 $ in repair.
A broken timing belt in a comparable high end ICE car also.
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Single module replacement a third party costs much less.
Tanking in gas in a diesel car can also cost 20 000 $ in repair.
A broken timing belt in a comparable high end ICE car also.
Dynamiting your car is definitely expensive! :D
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It I don't know if Renault have been striving for cost savings or weight saving but it looks as if they have gone a little too far on the ZOE... https://www.itv.com/news/meridian/2021-12-10/car-crash-tests-sees-zero-rating-for-renault-model-but-how-safe-is-your-car (https://www.itv.com/news/meridian/2021-12-10/car-crash-tests-sees-zero-rating-for-renault-model-but-how-safe-is-your-car)
On Saturday in the afternoon I left my new ZOE (just 3 months old) connected to a Heidelberg wallbox (at 12A). The next morning all the lights were flashing and the doors would no longer open. After pressing the key open / close buttons several times, I managed to turn off the lights and open the car, but nothing worked anymore. So I was forced to call for assistance to have it transported to the workshop. I'm afraid I won't have it back before January... >:(
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GM is having serious issues with Bolts and Volts.
Exploding batteries with the Bolt.
Shift to Park with the Volt. Took the dealer nearly 2 months having my car for nearly 2 months before I got the car back.
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Not strictly EV related... our i3 got hit by another car in an intersection recently.
We got hit almost square on the rear wheel, so only minor damage to the body panels and rear door were visible. Not a mark on the rims. However the impact was big enough that our car got thrown a meter or so away and rotated 90 degrees in the process...
When the repair shop started repairs they noticed a crack in the carbon fiber monocoque, and with that the car written off. So now we're gonna spend xmas looking for a new car...
To make this a bit more on topic, I'll note what we really liked about the i3:
- No center console blocking driver and passenger seats. So handy when parking in tight spots to be able to easily scoot over to the passenger side to get out, for example. Also nice for putting stuff, like a purse etc.
- Physical knobs and buttons for important stuff. This is going to be a real pain point with potential candidates it seems. As an example, i just watched a video about the new Hyundai Ioniq 5, need to navigate two menus to get to a "button" on the touch screen to operate the seat warmers... wtf?! We live in Norway, seat warmer settings will be changed many times per day for at least a third of a year. Also winter = gloves and/or dry hands, neither which work particularly well with touch sensors.
- For a city car the range was all we needed. We've been on multiple holidays with it and had no issue with the range. While we'll likely get a car with a longer range, it won't be at the top of our list.
- Excellent turning radius, very practical in a city car.
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Not strictly EV related... our i3 got hit by another car in an intersection recently.
We got hit almost square on the rear wheel, so only minor damage to the body panels and rear door were visible. Not a mark on the rims. However the impact was big enough that our car got thrown a meter or so away and rotated 90 degrees in the process...
When the repair shop started repairs they noticed a crack in the carbon fiber monocoque, and with that the car written off. So now we're gonna spend xmas looking for a new car...
To make this a bit more on topic, I'll note what we really liked about the i3:
- No center console blocking driver and passenger seats. So handy when parking in tight spots to be able to easily scoot over to the passenger side to get out, for example. Also nice for putting stuff, like a purse etc.
- Physical knobs and buttons for important stuff. This is going to be a real pain point with potential candidates it seems. As an example, i just watched a video about the new Hyundai Ioniq 5, need to navigate two menus to get to a "button" on the touch screen to operate the seat warmers... wtf?! We live in Norway, seat warmer settings will be changed many times per day for at least a third of a year. Also winter = gloves and/or dry hands, neither which work particularly well with touch sensors.
- For a city car the range was all we needed. We've been on multiple holidays with it and had no issue with the range. While we'll likely get a car with a longer range, it won't be at the top of our list.
- Excellent turning radius, very practical in a city car.
Doesn't sound like it takes much of an accident to write a car off these days?
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Doesn't sound like it takes much of an accident to write a car off these days?
It did come as a bit of a surprise, though I definitely thought it surely would be more than just bodywork damage. After all the 1300 kg worth of car was thrown around by the impact, it wasn't shoved.
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Doesn't sound like it takes much of an accident to write a car off these days?
It did come as a bit of a surprise, though I definitely thought it surely would be more than just bodywork damage. After all the 1300 kg worth of car was thrown around by the impact, it wasn't shoved.
Composite and laminated structures can be very troublesome in accidents. They are usually super strong, but when the stress gets too much for them they don't fail with much grace. For a seriously expensive composite structure, like the body of a 787 aircraft, being able to minimise the chance of an impact writing off the entire aircraft is a key issue in making the product viable. I assume BMW only built the i3 that way because they didn't expect it to reach high volume.
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Hiya. New to forum. I got a 2020 Chevy Bolt last October and have been super happy with it. Particularly happy lately with having an EV along with household solar.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVilMneFSas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVilMneFSas)
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Hiya. New to forum. I got a 2020 Chevy Bolt last October and have been super happy with it. Particularly happy lately with having an EV along with household solar.
Sounds like the ideal combination!
What kind of range are you getting?
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Sounds like the ideal combination!
What kind of range are you getting?
I'll charge to 80% per recall suggestion and be a tick or so the 50% mark in a week of ordinary commuting. I'm stingy with power, so mileage may literally vary.
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Or to answer more precisely. I'm quoted 280 miles on a full charge, but that's an estimate based on driving behavior.
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Or to answer more precisely. I'm quoted 280 miles on a full charge, but that's an estimate based on driving behavior.
What about when the temperate changes? The range on my EV drops by nearly 50% when the weather gets cold.
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Yeah definitely less when it's cold. I don't recall the figures from this past winter though. That being said, I'm in the southwest US and probably don't have "cold" winters according to a lot of the rest of the US.
Range is also affected by use of the heater or A/C too and I'm a power-stingy engineer too.
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I am in the San Francisco Bay Area where temperatures rarely drop below 32F/0C. The first winter we had the car we were shocked by the decrease in range, nearly 50% over 3 months. We thought for sure something we had a defective battery. But come about February the miles were increasing. And by March, it was back to full range.
I just saw a picture for gas prices in Northern California, Mendocino County where it $9.80 gal or $2.58 L. I think price for gas in Europe is $1.70 L
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I'm going to laugh all the way to the bank... just as soon as these solar panels are paid off
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I have a hybrid car, it gets dramatically worse economy during winter as well.
No such thing as a free lunch....
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I'm going to laugh all the way to the bank... just as soon as these solar panels are paid off
I smile as a drive past gas stations. I watched as a guy who filled his mussel car with gas, spending $130. He was so made he then peeled out of the gas station burning rubber. Between the gas the tire wear I bet that cost him a few dollars he probably doesn't have.
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The salt in the wound is that most EVs can probably accelerate faster than those stock muscle cars
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The salt in the wound is that most EVs can probably accelerate faster than those stock muscle cars
That's the reality, but in the deranged minds of muscle car owners the louder the car, the faster it is.
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That's the reality, but in the deranged minds of muscle car owners the louder the car, the faster it is.
Many governments are trying to enforce quieter cars with new regulations. However, what is happening in Europe right now seems stupid. Electric cars are failing the proposed standards, just on tyre noise. Super quiet tyres are possible, but they waste energy. I assume more balanced specs will be used in the final standards.
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That's the reality, but in the deranged minds of muscle car owners the louder the car, the faster it is.
Many governments are trying to enforce quieter cars with new regulations. However, what is happening in Europe right now seems stupid. Electric cars are failing the proposed standards, just on tyre noise. Super quiet tyres are possible, but they waste energy. I assume more balanced specs will be used in the final standards.
Something I learned is the louder tires result in less efficiency. (How much I do not know, but it makes sense.) Tire noise requires energy. The louder the tire noise requires more energy leaving less to power the car.
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That's the reality, but in the deranged minds of muscle car owners the louder the car, the faster it is.
Many governments are trying to enforce quieter cars with new regulations. However, what is happening in Europe right now seems stupid. Electric cars are failing the proposed standards, just on tyre noise. Super quiet tyres are possible, but they waste energy. I assume more balanced specs will be used in the final standards.
Something I learned is the louder tires result in less efficiency. (How much I do not know, but it makes sense.) Tire noise requires energy. The louder the tire noise requires more energy leaving less to power the car.
Sound takes very little energy. Soft quiet tyres, squidge as they roll and get warm. That wastes a lot of energy.
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That's the reality, but in the deranged minds of muscle car owners the louder the car, the faster it is.
Many governments are trying to enforce quieter cars with new regulations. However, what is happening in Europe right now seems stupid. Electric cars are failing the proposed standards, just on tyre noise. Super quiet tyres are possible, but they waste energy. I assume more balanced specs will be used in the final standards.
I would agree. Look at the size of the battery in wireless ear buds.
Something I learned is the louder tires result in less efficiency. (How much I do not know, but it makes sense.) Tire noise requires energy. The louder the tire noise requires more energy leaving less to power the car.
Sound takes very little energy. Soft quiet tyres, squidge as they roll and get warm. That wastes a lot of energy.
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That's the reality, but in the deranged minds of muscle car owners the louder the car, the faster it is.
Many governments are trying to enforce quieter cars with new regulations. However, what is happening in Europe right now seems stupid. Electric cars are failing the proposed standards, just on tyre noise. Super quiet tyres are possible, but they waste energy. I assume more balanced specs will be used in the final standards.
I would agree. Look at the size of the battery in wireless ear buds.
Something I learned is the louder tires result in less efficiency. (How much I do not know, but it makes sense.) Tire noise requires energy. The louder the tire noise requires more energy leaving less to power the car.
Sound takes very little energy. Soft quiet tyres, squidge as they roll and get warm. That wastes a lot of energy.
The difference between T0 (Tesla spec, standard on Model 3) and the standard Michelin Pilot is they have foam glued to the inside of the tyre for sound deadening. It's not a softer compound touching the ground to make them quieter as an "EV spec" tyre. This info was from Michelin when earlier this year when they had supply issues on T0's. I've kept one of my cases as a spare, so can confirm the foam is in there.
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I'm going to laugh all the way to the bank... just as soon as these solar panels are paid off
I smile as a drive past gas stations. I watched as a guy who filled his mussel car with gas, spending $130. He was so made he then peeled out of the gas station burning rubber. Between the gas the tire wear I bet that cost him a few dollars he probably doesn't have.
Most people that own muscle cars don't use them as daily drivers, they are a "hobby project" that gets waxed and polished more than anything! Pretty harmless overall.
Filling the tank with premium fuel is absolutely unpleasant nowadays, of course!
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A phenomenon that I hope is restricted to my vague geographic region is using giant full size diesel trucks as commuter vehicles. Diesel around here was $5.49/gal or so last I looked.
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Maybe it'd be worthwhile to point out some cons of owning/driving and EV. The big one that I didn't see coming was that without all that dino blood releasing the fires of hell... there's no real waste heat to use for a heater. If I want warm air on a cold day, I literally have to dump battery power into a 9kW ceramic heater that warms up a coolant reservoir specifically for cabin air heating. Power also has to be used to warm up the battery coolant on cold days and regenerative braking isn't available until the battery is warm enough.
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Sub zero temperatures is an issue even for my hybrid car, the battery is inefficient when cold, and the engine has to run most of the time in order to heat the cabin... fuel economy is something like 15% - 25% worse during winter as a a result.
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Maybe it'd be worthwhile to point out some cons of owning/driving and EV. The big one that I didn't see coming was that without all that dino blood releasing the fires of hell... there's no real waste heat to use for a heater. If I want warm air on a cold day, I literally have to dump battery power into a 9kW ceramic heater that warms up a coolant reservoir specifically for cabin air heating. Power also has to be used to warm up the battery coolant on cold days and regenerative braking isn't available until the battery is warm enough.
Not with an EV they use heat pumps to warm/cool the cabin.
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Maybe it'd be worthwhile to point out some cons of owning/driving and EV. The big one that I didn't see coming was that without all that dino blood releasing the fires of hell... there's no real waste heat to use for a heater. If I want warm air on a cold day, I literally have to dump battery power into a 9kW ceramic heater that warms up a coolant reservoir specifically for cabin air heating. Power also has to be used to warm up the battery coolant on cold days and regenerative braking isn't available until the battery is warm enough.
Not with an EV they use heat pumps to warm/cool the cabin.
Teslas do that. Mine doesn't
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Maybe it'd be worthwhile to point out some cons of owning/driving and EV. The big one that I didn't see coming was that without all that dino blood releasing the fires of hell... there's no real waste heat to use for a heater. If I want warm air on a cold day, I literally have to dump battery power into a 9kW ceramic heater that warms up a coolant reservoir specifically for cabin air heating. Power also has to be used to warm up the battery coolant on cold days and regenerative braking isn't available until the battery is warm enough.
Not with an EV they use heat pumps to warm/cool the cabin.
Teslas do that. Mine doesn't
And I bet you didn't pay $100k for your car either.
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And I bet you didn't pay $100k for your car either.
;D
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Maybe it'd be worthwhile to point out some cons of owning/driving and EV. The big one that I didn't see coming was that without all that dino blood releasing the fires of hell... there's no real waste heat to use for a heater. If I want warm air on a cold day, I literally have to dump battery power into a 9kW ceramic heater that warms up a coolant reservoir specifically for cabin air heating. Power also has to be used to warm up the battery coolant on cold days and regenerative braking isn't available until the battery is warm enough.
Heated seats would use a lot less power. Still need something to stop the windshield fogging up, a conductive coating similar to what's used on aircraft windshields could work if they could get the cost low enough.
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This sounds unbelievable, but formula E1 cars are able to capture 40% of the energy used for braking to recharge their batteries. And something I don’t understand is E1 racers have developed fast recharging for E1 vehicles in remote areas. (Not battery swaps, but fast recharging.)
This was mentioned in today's MarketPlace podcast near the end.
https://www.marketplace.org/shows/marketplace/the-salary-games-employers-play/ (https://www.marketplace.org/shows/marketplace/the-salary-games-employers-play/)
https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CAD3640791760.mp3 (https://traffic.megaphone.fm/CAD3640791760.mp3)
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Heated seats would use a lot less power. Still need something to stop the windshield fogging up, a conductive coating similar to what's used on aircraft windshields could work if they could get the cost low enough.
My dad's bolt has heated seats and heated steering wheel. They're pretty sweet and I'm jealous.
Fogging windows is a thing, but it has only happened to me carrying 3 people on a reasonably cold day.
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There are aftermarket heated seat mats. Not sure if there's an easy way to add a heated steering wheel but a 12V heater with some ducting might be a good enough alternative.
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There are aftermarket heated seat mats. Not sure if there's an easy way to add a heated steering wheel but a 12V heater with some ducting might be a good enough alternative.
Might also kill you if the ducting or the wires come loose and get tangled in the steering wheel or brake pedals.
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Heated seats would use a lot less power. Still need something to stop the windshield fogging up, a conductive coating similar to what's used on aircraft windshields could work if they could get the cost low enough.
My dad's bolt has heated seats and heated steering wheel. They're pretty sweet and I'm jealous.
Fogging windows is a thing, but it has only happened to me carrying 3 people on a reasonably cold day.
Fogging windows - turn on A/C and heat at the same time (to dehumidify). Most cars do this automatically when you select defog.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LcbFDCb9VU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LcbFDCb9VU)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LcbFDCb9VU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LcbFDCb9VU)
What point are you tryin to make by posting a 20 minute video without any text or explanation?
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None. Just ignore.
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Maybe it'd be worthwhile to point out some cons of owning/driving and EV. The big one that I didn't see coming was that without all that dino blood releasing the fires of hell... there's no real waste heat to use for a heater. If I want warm air on a cold day, I literally have to dump battery power into a 9kW ceramic heater that warms up a coolant reservoir specifically for cabin air heating. Power also has to be used to warm up the battery coolant on cold days and regenerative braking isn't available until the battery is warm enough.
Not with an EV they use heat pumps to warm/cool the cabin.
Only very recent Teslas use heat pumps for cabin heat.
My X 2021 (Last pre-facelift) does not. So I think it is fair to say 85-90% of all Teslas do not have heat pumps. And it shows on the electric bill.
In the summer I usually use 350-450 Wh / mile - and in the winter 500-700 Wh per mile (short < 30 mile trips) - if I switch everything off and is very careful I can push summer down to about 260-320 Wh / mile but then it is very wind and temperature dependent.
The above figures are averages - not "instant" measurements downhill with the sun and wind at my back.
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Only very recent Teslas use heat pumps for cabin heat.
My X 2021 (Last pre-facelift) does not. So I think it is fair to say 85-90% of all Teslas do not have heat pumps. And it shows on the electric bill.
all model Y, and all 3 from 2021 on use heat pumps. So most of the Tesla's on the road do use heatpump. 70% of all tesla's on the road today are 3/y as they are volume cars.
s/X has it since the horizontal touchscreen.
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Only very recent Teslas use heat pumps for cabin heat.
My X 2021 (Last pre-facelift) does not. So I think it is fair to say 85-90% of all Teslas do not have heat pumps. And it shows on the electric bill.
all model Y, and all 3 from 2021 on use heat pumps. So most of the Tesla's on the road do use heatpump. 70% of all tesla's on the road today are 3/y as they are volume cars.
s/X has it since the horizontal touchscreen.
ok I was wrong on the pct - sorry :)
But up until and including 2020 Tesla had produced 1.5 million cars (roughly)
2021+2022 (q1+q2) = 1.5 million total
So I guess it can maximum be 50% using heat pumps? (unless a large pct. have been scrapped?)
I would love a "heat pump" upgrade for my X. My X is from ? March '21 and did not come with heat pump. I think the first X's are the facelift models - and very few of those arrived in '21 in the UK.
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Aren't a lot of EV other than Teslas still be released without a heat pump, or with one only in the top of the range trim?
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the thing with other EV's is that they do not have an integrated cooling system. Tesla circulates coolant through the battery pack , motors (both) , the inverters , the charger , a/c and other items. That's what the octovalve does.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkt8Z1NkkXs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkt8Z1NkkXs)
it allows circulation of coolant to deliver heat/cold wher eneeded. so they are recycling the waste-heat
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the thing with other EV's is that they do not have an integrated cooling system. Tesla circulates coolant through the battery pack , motors (both) , the inverters , the charger , a/c and other items. That's what the octovalve does.
it allows circulation of coolant to deliver heat/cold wher eneeded. so they are recycling the waste-heat
that does look really smart! There are some smart cookies working for Tesla!
Maybe that can help solve one of my personal "i want" issues.
We waste so much energy on heating and cooling in a home due to having fridges, freezers and heat sources like heat-pumps etc.
So on one hand we are spending a lot on heat where part waste is "cooled air" while we cool fridge and freezers where the waste is hot air. So why not use the waste cooling from heating our home - to cool our fridge? And in the summer we like "A/C" in certain situations but still would like hot water and heated towel racks. There will of course be times with imbalance in needs but if it can work in a car - it could scale?
Home solutions would of course be expensive to make and setup. But there could be lot of industrial use. Think of walking into a supermarket with row after row of cooling devices - while they have to run heat to maintain shop temperature. Looking at HVAC for retail is mind boggling as you often have rows of roof mounted HVAC units for the general HVAC heating/cooling - "fighting" the massive amount of compressors for the cooling units.
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it allows circulation of coolant to deliver heat/cold wher eneeded. so they are recycling the waste-heat
It's quite incredible how rapidly this system has developed too. Our 3 year old model 3 has the older "super bottle" design which used a slight reverse on the motor to generate heat rather than having an independent heat pump and was about heat scavenging but not able to direct the hot/cold coolant wherever it was needed. That was an efficiency improvement over the S/X platform that used a heating element, but octovalve took it to the next level, and that itself has had dozens of iterations since release.
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My LEAF turns 8 next month and I had the wheels off it for the first time in its life last weekend. Enough surface rust near the circumference of the brake rotors had formed to produce a slight grinding noise on right turns (as the inner pad dragged along the rusty border between swept and unswept).
A quick sanding to remove that rust, brake pad check (50% or so left on front, 25-30% on rear), front<->rear tire rotation, and everything is back in order. It’s impressive how little maintenance has been needed (aside from the battery pack module replaced under warranty, which is big for Nissan, but free for me).
As a cheap run around town car, it fits the bill nearly perfectly.
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My LEAF turns 8 next month and I had the wheels off it for the first time in its life last weekend. Enough surface rust near the circumference of the brake rotors had formed to produce a slight grinding noise on right turns (as the inner pad dragged along the rusty border between swept and unswept).
A quick sanding to remove that rust, brake pad check (50% or so left on front, 25-30% on rear), front<->rear tire rotation, and everything is back in order. It’s impressive how little maintenance has been needed (aside from the battery pack module replaced under warranty, which is big for Nissan, but free for me).
As a cheap run around town car, it fits the bill nearly perfectly.
How many miles has it done? 8 years is a long life for a set of tyres, and EVs generally wear them faster than gas powered cars, because of their weight.
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Only around 25K miles. The fronts (now rears) are near the wear limit and I’ll replace them before the snow comes. The rears (now fronts) were very lightly worn, so I moved them to the fronts to get more use from them before they age out.
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Sandy Morano has an excellent video explaining how brilliant the octovalve. But Sandy says BMW's Loss Core technology is good as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGffUODWWSE&ab_channel=MunroLive (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGffUODWWSE&ab_channel=MunroLive)
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Sandy Morano has an excellent video explaining how brilliant the octovalve. But Sandy says BMW's Loss Core technology is good as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGffUODWWSE&ab_channel=MunroLive (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGffUODWWSE&ab_channel=MunroLive)
It wasn't obvious from the video what this item is actually used for... it looked nicely expensive though!
[Edit]
Watched a video on this. Basically, it allows heat energy to be moved around between different parts of the vehicle/motors/battery in clever ways. It is definitely clever, not so sure about cost and long term reliability?
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Sandy Morano has an excellent video explaining how brilliant the octovalve. But Sandy says BMW's Loss Core technology is good as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGffUODWWSE&ab_channel=MunroLive (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGffUODWWSE&ab_channel=MunroLive)
It wasn't obvious from the video what this item is actually used for... it looked nicely expensive though!
[Edit]
Watched a video on this. Basically, it allows heat energy to be moved around between different parts of the vehicle/motors/battery in clever ways. It is definitely clever, not so sure about cost and long term reliability?
Considering Monro videos used it as a bit of a meme (Sandy sees something terribe and faints "quick bring the Octovalve to bring in round" I would guess he is impressed enough to think it would last for a while
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Sandy Morano has an excellent video explaining how brilliant the octovalve. But Sandy says BMW's Loss Core technology is good as well.
It wasn't obvious from the video what this item is actually used for... it looked nicely expensive though!
[Edit]
Watched a video on this. Basically, it allows heat energy to be moved around between different parts of the vehicle/motors/battery in clever ways. It is definitely clever, not so sure about cost and long term reliability?
Compared to an automatic transmission rat maze, (9:27) this is simplistic.
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It is definitely clever, not so sure about cost and long term reliability?
As others here have noted, it's not as complex to manufacture as an ICE transmission. In the comparison video of the Ford Mach-E the complexity, cost, and reliability and ultimately the weight penalty of the Ford solution is far inferior to this. The Mach-E system they stress is the 2nd best system currently available, far better than all others aside from Tesla.
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The huge difference is :
- The tesla "supermanifold" is litterally at it's first technological generation, with many potential for improvement
- Any hydraulic "rat maze" of an automatic ICE transmission is at it's 10th tech generation or so, and it's last, most optimized form, at the brink of obsolescence.
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For those who say EVs don't work well in cold weather:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uW7NLQOVHg8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uW7NLQOVHg8)
Not sure how that Kia was able to charge from a Tesla charging station.
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Tesla superchargers are open to other brands in Europe.
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Not with an EV they use heat pumps to warm/cool the cabin.
Teslas do that. Mine doesn't
The Renault Zoe has a heatpump (integrated with the cooling system so it can use waste heat) and it's not exactly a high-end vehicle. On a 30 minute drive last weekend (around 8C outside temperature, cabin temperature set to 20C) it used 0.2 kWh to reach and maintain cabin temperature.
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Cool, didn't know that the Zoe had this... My Tesla doesn't (too old, now it's a standard on all new ones).
I hope it gets to be a standard equipment soon on all cars.
VW still has it as a paying option....
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My LEAF turns 8 next month and I had the wheels off it for the first time in its life last weekend. Enough surface rust near the circumference of the brake rotors had formed to produce a slight grinding noise on right turns (as the inner pad dragged along the rusty border between swept and unswept).
A quick sanding to remove that rust, brake pad check (50% or so left on front, 25-30% on rear), front<->rear tire rotation, and everything is back in order. It’s impressive how little maintenance has been needed (aside from the battery pack module replaced under warranty, which is big for Nissan, but free for me).
As a cheap run around town car, it fits the bill nearly perfectly.
A slight grinding noise on turns is a sign of a worn wheel bearing. OR, in the past somebody forgot to tighten the driveshaft nut on a front wheel drive. Save for marginal brands, wheel bearings wear due to water going past the ( marginal ) seals built into them. On modern cars they are angular contacts, back to back ( inners), factory preloaded, in a common outer race. That makes testing them almost impossible when the wear is marginal as the bearing shows play only when the weight of the vehicle bears on it.
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In this case, it was rust on the unswept portion dragging. 45 seconds per side with a flap disk and the noise (which was entirely repeatable previously) went away entirely.
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In this case, it was rust on the unswept portion dragging. 45 seconds per side with a flap disk and the noise (which was entirely repeatable previously) went away entirely.
I am sure it went away - I believe you. But, the fact the noise appeared IN TURNS is concerning. It indicates there is movement between the brake caliper and disk. A ( very !) distant reason might be that the brake pipe is sufficiently stiff ( or wrongly routed / anchored) to cause the caliper to move slightly ( on the pins ) in turns. The rust ( you sanded off ) is why you could hear the problem. On a clean disk it is still there only you can't hear it.
I noticed you mention the rear pads being worn twice as much as the front ones. If you started with both pairs new at the same time, that should never be the case. The rears should last at least twice longer than the front or something is seriously wrong. And now, that I probably irritated you quite a bit :) I'll end by mentioning that rotating tires ( radials ) is a less than good idea. Tires tend to "memorize" loads and suspension angles and when "challenged" make for slight wondering, pulling etc besides alignment being off. Add the fact you end up buying 4 new tires at once. I read your post again : the car is 8 years old, it seems. Just keep an eye on that bearing...
I sincerely apologize for my interfering.
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There's always going to be SOME movement, wheel bearings have some allowable amount of axial play. Most cars now also have floating calipers that slide on guide pins and when turning the centrifugal force will push the caliper toward the outside. Any rust or debris that builds up will eventually contact something and it's natural that this would happen during times that the clearance changes even if only by a few thousandths of an inch.
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There's always going to be SOME movement, wheel bearings have some allowable amount of axial play. Most cars now also have floating calipers that slide on guide pins and when turning the centrifugal force will push the caliper toward the outside. Any rust or debris that builds up will eventually contact something and it's natural that this would happen during times that the clearance changes even if only by a few thousandths of an inch.
NO. Tapered roller bearings ( old cars and heavy duty vehicles ) are installed with a couple of microns ( 2-3 tenth) PLAY or they will overheat. They are an order of magnitude tougher than modern car bearings. Those are angular contact ball bearings and they are mounted with FACTORY PRELOAD ( and quite a bit of it...) and should stay like that for some time. There is indeed a max allowable play permitted by SOME manufacturers. It's measured at the periphery of the disk and it is very small - half a thou for my Renault Scenic, for example. "A couple of thou's" is disaster range. There is no centrifugal force to push the caliper - the caliper does not rotate. However, there is CENTRIPETAL force due to the pads friction on the disk. Only, this one draws the caliper towards the center of the disk....
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I noticed you mention the rear pads being worn twice as much as the front ones. If you started with both pairs new at the same time, that should never be the case. The rears should last at least twice longer than the front or something is seriously wrong. And now, that I probably irritated you quite a bit :) I'll end by mentioning that rotating tires ( radials ) is a less than good idea. Tires tend to "memorize" loads and suspension angles and when "challenged" make for slight wondering, pulling etc besides alignment being off. Add the fact you end up buying 4 new tires at once. I read your post again : the car is 8 years old, it seems. Just keep an eye on that bearing...
You haven’t annoyed me in the least. I bought the car new and the pads are original. The rears are worn about 50% more (in depth/mile), not 100% more and, importantly, they are tiny compared to the fronts (in profile view area), so it’s not that worrisome that they’re wearing slightly faster in depth.
I drive that car about 3-4K miles per year. It would be difficult to use up a pair of rear tires before they age out if I never ran them on the front. I expect to change all four at around 10-12 years.
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I noticed you mention the rear pads being worn twice as much as the front ones. If you started with both pairs new at the same time, that should never be the case. The rears should last at least twice longer than the front or something is seriously wrong. And now, that I probably irritated you quite a bit :) I'll end by mentioning that rotating tires ( radials ) is a less than good idea. Tires tend to "memorize" loads and suspension angles and when "challenged" make for slight wondering, pulling etc besides alignment being off. Add the fact you end up buying 4 new tires at once. I read your post again : the car is 8 years old, it seems. Just keep an eye on that bearing...
You haven’t annoyed me in the least. I bought the car new and the pads are original. The rears are worn about 50% more (in depth/mile), not 100% more and, importantly, they are tiny compared to the fronts (in profile view area), so it’s not that worrisome that they’re wearing slightly faster in depth.
I drive that car about 3-4K miles per year. It would be difficult to use up a pair of rear tires before they age out if I never ran them on the front. I expect to change all four at around 10-12 years.
Thank you, I understand. I'll send you a PM. Thank you, again.
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Just an update on our Tesla X '21 adventure.
I like the technology - i like the car. It is a bit cheaply built compared to other cars in its price-range.
In mid december - during the "slight snow" we reversed into our driveway - and despite gritting - the car slid down the driveway - and hit the garage. Breake fully engage - car just slid down.
Impact was on left rear corner - taking out left sidepanel and tailgate. Compression was less than 1.5" but required 45 replacement components to fix.
Car has since then sat in Garage waiting for spare parts. Tesla can't deliver parts for model S or X within a reasonable timeframe. Body parts are taking 3-9 months !! to arrive. We have hopes for repair finishing around start May unless something else turns up.
So the moment our X comes back - it goes up for sale. We can't own a car where body parts are not available.
Tesla X plus's:
Fast, drives well, have reasonable range dependent on temperature and wind. It has trailer hitch, and 6 seats. Fits 6 people fine with small suitcases. It is the most relaxing car to drive I have ever driven.
Tesla X minus's
Loading capacity is terrible for 6 seater as "captain seats" in the middle can't be moved. For 6 seats luggage space is very limited. Cameras OFTEN gets blinded by low sun or water/ice making "some safety-electronics" not operational. Camera's quality are bad, colour calibration way off - no 360 view like on Mercedes. No native Apple Car interface. Gull wing doors are SLOW and often not aware of their surroundings. Software updates post a newer refresh model "minor". Charge interface/options are very limited for controlling when and how to charge. No point in Tesla's Gen 3 charger with WiFi at ALL. (I changed to another brand of charger). If fully or almost fully charged - regenerative brake system can't discharge to batteries - making the brake experience very different.
and last but not least the straw that broke the camels back... Spare part availability is rubbish and logistics knowledge and planning seem completely absent. When they are not building model S's or X's - they don't make spare parts leading to excessive long wait times.
And the not car related Tesla issues: Tesla EMEA shop is the most disorganised org I have ever dealt with. Ordered key holder - and got a Model 3 hub cab. Ordered a replacement wiper - got an empty tube (no tape or anything over ends of the tubes). No response AT ALL to any mails apart from "automated" collection notices from items delivered wrong. Then DHL kept ringing our doorbell to collect items already collected and marked as received.
So in short Tesla could be great - but they do not have the infrastructure in place, nor the logistics to provide service to their clients.
Our insurance company is now refusing new Tesla insurance due to the lack of parts. (They are providing rental car for the duration) - and they have a LOT of S's and X's stuck waiting for parts.
Tesla is no longer a "new player" - so there is no excuse for the lack of parts. Tesla have done a calculated risk about not supplying parts - and I think it will bite them in the rear end.
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Thanks of the post kaz911. I’ve been thinking of a Tesla but I’m hearing so many stories similar to yours. I’m now thinking of a Rivian. I have a test drive scheduled on Thursday. Where I live I’m seeing a surprising number of Rivians. Have not seen any complaints.
I current have a Volt, it’s my second. I should make a separate post on this by GM has admitted there is an unfixable flaw in the Volt and several other GM models in the tens of millions. If anyone has a Volt or any of the other GM cars and had the StP issue they can sue GM and get a substantial settlement.
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I have a Volt and have been very pleased with the car. So pleased, this is my second Volt. But like many other Volt owners I had the Shift to Park issue with both cars Turns out GM has manufactured and sold tens of thousands of GM cars knowing they have a StP defect. GM has admitted the car has a defect and with the Volts can cause serious injury and death.
GM cannot issue a recall as there is no fix.
I like many other Volt and other GM car owners who purchased these defective cars have sued GM for selling a car with a known unfixable defect and received a very nice cash settlement with next to no opposition from GM.
I’m doing this as a public service - If you have a Volt or other GM car and have experienced the StP issue you can sue GM at no cost, since GM has admitted they knowingly sold defective cars. Expcet GM to settle the case quickly and in return expect to receive a cash settlement and more.
That’s been my EV experience with 2 Volts…. Both having the StP issue.
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I think EV makers in general have a support issue. The stories about Teslas get a lot of news, but look at other makes. When I buy a car I need to know it will have support - quick and easy to access maintenance, crash repairs and so on. Its not a toy. I'm not buying a Ferrari, where its definitely not a daily driver, and it can be off the road for a while without much impact to me. If it breaks, or needs impact repair, it needs to be quickly working again. Loan cars are not really an effective substitute for getting your car back, and if we aren't taking about warranty work the cost is huge. In this environment look at the tales of the big European brands, like VW and BMW. Their ICE cars get turned around quickly, but there are many reports of the electric ones being off the road for ages, or needing to go extreme distances to a service centre. Polestar, being a new brand, one might expect to push their support side hard on their web site, and in other publicity. Last time I looked they didn't mention what you do to get one fixed. Do you go to your local Volvo dealer? Seems you do, as when I take my Volvo in for its annual service there are bunch of Polestars standing by the service shop. It seems Volvo/Polestar don't even register the needs of the average car owner in promoting their products.
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The car industry is a tough one and being a new player is challenging. But with this shift to EVs the industry is being disrupted. I thought I would hate an EV, but my wife forced it upon me and now I'm a convert. I will NEVER buy an ICE car again, ever.
I hate going here, but with the problems you've been having getting parts for your Tesla have you thought about contacting a lawyer? I have a Volt, and the Shift to Park issue left me stranded three times. As I began researching the StP issue I found not only did GM know about the defect, they sold the cars with the defect anyway. And this is AFTER the ignition switch defect that GM knew about and killed 127 customers/people. Mary Barra stated she would NEVER let something like that happen again at GM. Well it did. This is why I sued GM. I have since learned GM has sold 10s of millions of cars which all have the StP defect. How could GM do this to customers? And the stupid think is GM for less than $0.10 a car could have prevented the StP defect. Like the ignition switch defect, the StP can kill families and GM isn't saying a word about this. They already settled one lawsuit with a family who nearly died. They were rushed to the hospital with CO poisoning.
Have you talked to a Lemon Law attorney? It won't cost you a penny.
And if anyone is a Volt or GM car owner with a car that's had the StP issue contact an attorney and sue GM for selling you a defective car.
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US law vs EU/UK law is different regarding settlements.
So basic EU/UK lawsuits you can sue for actual loss only. And you have to demonstrate the value of your loss. Then you get compensation for that plus maybe something for supplier being careless. But it is lots of work for little payout.
US settlements are usually 10-50x larger at least. I had a US settlement once for something I had purchased - and ended up getting about 40% back of the original purchase price for 8 months of "forced downtime" on something with an estimated 30 year life.
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Thanks for sharing. As I sued GM I am not allowed to discuss the specifics of my StP lawsuit. But let's just say GM settled, paid ALL attorneys fees AND provided enough cash and other concessions equaling about 2 GM cars.
If the US if a product manufacture knowingly sells a defective product as the Volt they are liable for court costs, attorney fees, and punitive damages. All which I received over the StP issue.
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Thanks for sharing. As I sued GM I am not allowed to discuss the specifics of my StP lawsuit. But let's just say GM settled, paid ALL attorneys fees AND provided enough cash and other concessions equaling about 2 GM cars.
If the US if a product manufacture knowingly sells a defective product as the Volt they are liable for court costs, attorney fees, and punitive damages. All which I received over the StP issue.
To my mind, the Shift to Park issue is related to the general trend of overcomplicating cars. Who needs a simple transmission shift cable (on an ICE car) that can last 50 years when you can replace said cable with a computer and a servo (looking at you, Ford) with a TTL of a few years?