Author Topic: Electric Car Experiences  (Read 9905 times)

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Offline boffin

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Electric Car Experiences
« on: August 03, 2018, 06:07:10 am »
I'm starting this off as a new topic for those interested in discussions around the viability of owning and operating electric vehicles. 

Experiences such as range, charging solutions, real-world economics, idiosyncrasies of your vehcile and more

For myself, I drive a new VW eGolf, and it's been great so far (other than a flat tire). Economy is amazing, about 14kWh/100k out of the battery, call it 16kWh when you consider charging efficiency.

Anyone else want to add their experiences with their electric (or PHEV) ?



 
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Offline Fred27

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2018, 06:39:18 am »
I've had a Zero FXS electric motorbike for the last year. I absolutely love it. It's not a motorway mile cruncher or suited to touring, but it's great fun and ideal for commuting.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2018, 10:23:48 am »
4 years ago I purchased a Chevy Volt. I never thought I'd purchase a compact American car but after reading so many positive reviews....

I understood the technical advantages of moving a vehicle with an electric motor vs an ICE and I knew I would be saving money on gasoline but what I did not appreciate was just how nice it is not having to go to the gasoline station once a week.   My current lifetime average is 208 mpg.  I rarely need to use any gasoline - only for the occasional long car trip.  I only put gas in it about twice a year.

The experience has been so positive, we just bought my wife a PHEV minivan - the Chrysler Pacifica PHEV.

I also own a Toyota 4WD Tundra pick up truck I use for hauling garbage, recycling and construction materials.  It also serves as our emergency vehicle during heavy snow falls when the roads have not yet been plowed.  As soon as there is a good 4WD EV truck available, I'll be replacing the Tundra...
 

Offline saike

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2018, 03:12:24 pm »
I bought a 2018 Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV a few months ago and so far it has been brilliant, 1200 miles without putting any petrol in it yet.
It is definitely a short trip shopping car with a proposed electric range of 32 miles and I am quite surprised that I am actually  getting an easy (summer time) 28 miles range.

Charging while away from home is a non starter, there is either a 4 hour charge time to do another 28 miles, or a fast charge (30 mins) to get another 24 miles which is more expensive than putting a gallon of petrol in the car.

The thing that surprises me most about all this (with the recent kerfuffle about exhaust emissions in mind) is that anybody actually believes the performance figures quoted by the car manufacturers, which are purely aimed at selling the car to the public and not giving them any real idea of the performance they can expect from the car.
 

Offline boffin

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2018, 03:56:33 am »
The thing that surprises me most about all this (with the recent kerfuffle about exhaust emissions in mind) is that anybody actually believes the performance figures quoted by the car manufacturers, which are purely aimed at selling the car to the public and not giving them any real idea of the performance they can expect from the car.

I actually think right now that some companies (I'm looking at your VW) are completely paranoid about exactly that.  For example my eGolf is quoted 200km/charge, but I routinely get about 225-240

As for actual mileage, I'm seeing about 14kWh/100km, even with charging losses of what appear to be around 10% the numbers are quite stunning
15½ kWh @ C$0.085/kWh = C$1.32/100km whereas the ICE version of the same car uses about 8l of gasoline @$1.46/l, or $11.68

As for AC/heater usage, using the AC seems to add 1-2kW to the draw, not a huge draw, and certainly not enough to scare me about it.

For 90% of the people out there, a BEV is a viable alternative. There's always going to be people who need regular long drives etc, but I probably do 200+km drives in a day about 2/year, and it either takes a little planning, or to simply rent a car when I do need non-EV range. 
 

Online sokoloff

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2018, 07:03:15 am »
Have had a Nissan LEAF as my daily driver for ~44 months now. Overall, it's been great.

Unfortunately, the battery range is a little snug to get me home or work to the airport and back with perfect comfort/reliability. It's pretty reliably able to do it, and was perfectly reliable and then some when the battery was new.

We also have an ICE car, so any long range trips that aren't done by air are done by that car. As the guy who turns the wrenches on all our stuff, I much prefer the electric. :)
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2018, 07:03:48 am »
and it either takes a little planning, or to simply rent a car when I do need non-EV range.
You keep saying that but I doubt you ever tried it. I've been down that road a couple of years ago thinking we could do with one car and rent a car if necessary. Well that turned out to be a huge miscalculation. The financial break even point for owning a (second hand) car was less than a year. Note that when renting a car you are also paying for depreciation with a big profit on top.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2018, 07:39:19 am »
and it either takes a little planning, or to simply rent a car when I do need non-EV range.
You keep saying that but I doubt you ever tried it. I've been down that road a couple of years ago thinking we could do with one car and rent a car if necessary. Well that turned out to be a huge miscalculation. The financial break even point for owning a (second hand) car was less than a year. Note that when renting a car you are also paying for depreciation with a big profit on top.
How many days a year of renting do you expect you would have to pay for?
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2018, 07:48:10 am »
Rental cars are cheap in the US. $30-40 a day, $200-300 for a week with unlimited miles. Auto insurance alone in most parts of the US will cost you $1000 a year per vehicle for liability coverage alone.

I’ve known non-EV owners who use rental cars for any long trips just because they don’t trust their cheap commuter vehicle.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2018, 02:33:17 am »
Rental cars are cheap in the US. $30-40 a day, $200-300 for a week with unlimited miles. Auto insurance alone in most parts of the US will cost you $1000 a year per vehicle for liability coverage alone.
My car insurance costs way less but due to not claiming anything for many years got me a hefty discount.

Those low rental prices usually are for very small cars. If you want a decent car the price nearly doubles and then there is the extra insurance. But as I wrote before I already tried to 'optimise' cars. My previous car was a sedan. My thinking was: I don't need a station wagon every day and I'll sort things out when I need to transport something large. Well that turned out to be a really bad idea. Fortunately my wife had a relatively large hatch-back so I could use that to transport larger items but it still didn't do the job well. I recall buying a couple of windows but those where too large for the lid to close so I had to drive around to find a shopping mall first to but a piece of rope to tie it shut. Same for a dish-washer and many other items. Buying a car which can't do the 1% you need every now and then just sucks. Nowadays I'm back to the station wagon. I hope this underlines my point when I'm saying that buying a car which can only do 99% (or less) of the use cases is going to be a nuisance because it doesn't deliver when you need it the most.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2018, 02:41:42 am »
No, it's a nuisance for *you*. For many other people it's not a big deal at all. You've been harping on the same ridiculous things post after post after post, and frankly I don't understand your obsession with it. Why can't you just do your thing and let other people do what works for them? You have an almost religious belief regarding this topic, no fact would ever sway your mind, so what is the point? 
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2018, 03:44:17 am »
No, it's a nuisance for *you*. For many other people it's not a big deal at all. You've been harping on the same ridiculous things post after post after post, and frankly I don't understand your obsession with it. Why can't you just do your thing and let other people do what works for them?
Perhaps you should try to *understand* what I write. I'm just writing down what I've learned during the past decades. There is no need to repeat my mistakes if you care to take notice. But then again: you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 03:45:51 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2018, 04:13:34 am »
Rental cars are cheap in the US. $30-40 a day, $200-300 for a week with unlimited miles. Auto insurance alone in most parts of the US will cost you $1000 a year per vehicle for liability coverage alone.

I’ve known non-EV owners who use rental cars for any long trips just because they don’t trust their cheap commuter vehicle.

Just to give you a feeling how it is different in EU, here in Croatia to rent Skoda Octavia (what you in USA would consider smaller sedan) is 80ish € a day. On my car (Toyota RAV4) I pay 350 € insurance a year. My Toyota would be more than 100€ a day rented.

I lived in USA for few years. Many people in USA cannot understand how different USA is than the rest of the world, especially how market is different. Some stuff here is 5x more expensive than in USA, some is 5x less expensive. It's different.

So generalizations that something that works for you in USA ( and I you believe it does ) will work here too is not right. It might work even better, it might not work at all.

Market, infrastructure etc is different.  And then there are differences across EU. Poor countries VS rich ones, cultural diffs: French likes this, Germans that, Italian somethin else...

Many things don't work like they do in USA. Electric cars, solar tech... Different economic environment...
 
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Offline mtdoc

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2018, 05:00:22 am »
I lived in USA for few years. Many people in USA cannot understand how different USA is than the rest of the world, especially how market is different. Some stuff here is 5x more expensive than in USA, some is 5x less expensive. It's different.

So generalizations that something that works for you in USA ( and I you believe it does ) will work here too is not right. It might work even better, it might not work at all.

Fair enough but I was not generalizing - in fact I specifically noted that I was referring to the US in repsone to a poster who was extrpolating his experience to others.  And FWIW, I’ve travelled extensively through Europe, including one 8 month work/travel trip, so i am well aware of the differences between the US/Canada and Europe as well as the variations among European countries.
 
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Offline boffin

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2018, 08:18:52 am »
I expect one of the places you'll see an explosion of BEV in the next few years are short-distance (city) delivery vehicles.  When I was a kid (in the UK), milk was delivered by an electric vehicle; that was the 70s. Surely it would be even more efficient today.

How many km/day does the avg FedEx/UPS/Mail truck drive?
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2018, 08:23:32 am »
I expect one of the places you'll see an explosion of BEV in the next few years are short-distance (city) delivery vehicles.  When I was a kid (in the UK), milk was delivered by an electric vehicle; that was the 70s. Surely it would be even more efficient today.

How many km/day does the avg FedEx/UPS/Mail truck drive?
In some places those parcel delivery companies are already heavy users of electric delivery vans. They seem to be leading the use of these vehicles. I guess they have more stop start action than most other delivery van activity, and gett the greatest benefit from regen.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 07:09:50 pm by coppice »
 

Offline saike

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2018, 06:23:07 pm »
I went to a used equipment dealer here in the UK a couple of years ago and they had just purchased 15 fairly large electric delivery vehicles which had come to the end of a lease agreement. They cleaned them up and resold them for 3 times more than they had paid for them. A  large (high 5 or low 6 figure sum) profit for having enough courage to buy them and hope there was a resale market.
 

Offline jordanp123

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2018, 07:55:18 am »
Got a Tesla Model 3 a few weeks back. Always wanted a electric car and the opportunity presented its self so I grabbed it. So far its been great, I need to upgrade my charging circuit at home (240V-20 Amp-Charges at 16A ), but insofar so good.
 

Offline f4eru

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2018, 08:34:28 am »
Quote
Got a Tesla Model 3 a few weeks back.
The best car available today in the price/range.
We are eager to get it in Europe, as the size and range is especially well suited for our roads.
 

Offline jmelson

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2018, 06:04:06 am »

Anyone else want to add their experiences with their electric (or PHEV) ?
Well, since you included PHEV (which I guess is similar to a PZEV) I have a Honda Civic Hybrid.  It has a different engine than regular Civics, with variable intake valve timing and the ability to cut off several cylinders.  So, it has no throttle, but reduces engine output by allowing less fuel/air charge into the cylinders.  This takes several seconds to do, so would be unnerving without the hybrid motor/generator.  With the hybrid system, any time you move the gas pedal, it immediately uses the hybrid motor/battery to supply or extract the required energy until the valve timing is adjusted.

Rather complex stuff, but it seems to work really well, and reliably.  They also have a chain-drive continuously variable transmission, with a wet-pack clutch similar to what is on a motorcycle.

Anyway, it all works quite well, and when ** I ALONE ** drive it, I can get over 50 MPG using US gasohol.  When my family drives it, they can get the mileage down into the 40's right away.  (ugh)  The only problem I've had with it is the battery pack blew at 68,000 miles, and is getting ready to do it again.  Whoever thought you could put 120 Ni-MH D-cells in series with no cell balancing and hit it will 100 A charge and discharge cycles for years should have been fired (and maybe put in the nut house).  It is totally amazing that the battery can take that abuse for several years before slowly going bad.

So, I like it, and may get another hybrid.  I'm wondering if the Toyota Prius Prime (plug-in hybrid) might be my next car.

Jon
 

Offline f4eru

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2018, 06:29:27 am »
Interesting system, but yeah. Why do they use nimh in 2018 in the first place ? Why no lithium tech ?
 

Online bd139

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2018, 06:30:20 am »
I know four people who have bought Tesla model S and X in the last year and disappeared. I don’t think this is a conspiracy or anything. They’re just sitting in them all day with a big smile on :)
 

Offline Fred27

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2018, 07:35:19 am »
So, it has no throttle, but reduces engine output by allowing less fuel/air charge into the cylinders.
Isn't that exactly how a throttle normally works?
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2018, 08:07:26 am »
So, it has no throttle, but reduces engine output by allowing less fuel/air charge into the cylinders.
Isn't that exactly how a throttle normally works?

Effectively, yes. The throttle (on a conventional gasoline engine) controls the amount of air that can enter the intake manifold. This in turn determines the amount of fuel injected into the air immediately prior to entering the cylinder.

Diesel engines on the other hand have no throttle, the power output is controlled by adjusting the amount of fuel injected directly into the combustion chamber.
 

Offline Kevman

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2018, 11:26:48 pm »
I bought a Chevy Bolt 14 months ago, and love it. Its really is fun to drive, quiet, reliable and has enough range for anything but long trips. What's not to like?

The Bolt has an EPA listing of 238 miles, but can approach 260 miles in ideal weather where I live. However, in the Winter, it can dip as low as 150 miles.

So, If you live in a colder climate, make sure you have plenty of excess range. And a 240v charger- a 120v will barely charge the car at all in the cold. Rich Rebuilds has said that his Model S has LOST range in the winter while plugged in to 120v!

32A EVSE is not necessary unless you average over 100 miles a day driving, though. Pretty much any 240v will be plenty.

ESVEs have really been coming down in price and I expect that to continue. I paid $250 for my 16A charger a year ago but the same charger is $175 now. There just isn't much to them.

 

Offline CJay

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2018, 11:56:38 pm »
Rental cars are cheap in the US. $30-40 a day, $200-300 for a week with unlimited miles. Auto insurance alone in most parts of the US will cost you $1000 a year per vehicle for liability coverage alone.

I’ve known non-EV owners who use rental cars for any long trips just because they don’t trust their cheap commuter vehicle.

Rentals can be as little as £12 a day here if you want a small car, I paid £17 a day with unlimited mileage for a Vauxhall Insignia (which I think is a Buick Regal in the US?) when I went to Scotland for a week.

I don't currently have a car so I'm looking at options and at the moment but an EV is working out to be the more expensive option even if I buy second hand.
M0UAW
 

Offline boffin

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2018, 02:05:54 am »
So, it has no throttle, but reduces engine output by allowing less fuel/air charge into the cylinders.
Isn't that exactly how a throttle normally works?

Effectively, yes. The throttle (on a conventional gasoline engine) controls the amount of air that can enter the intake manifold. This in turn determines the amount of fuel injected into the air immediately prior to entering the cylinder.

Diesel engines on the other hand have no throttle, the power output is controlled by adjusting the amount of fuel injected directly into the combustion chamber.

It's still a throttle, it just meters fuel, not fuel+air.  Also some modern gasoline engines use gasoline direct injection, rather than pre-mixing air/fuel.  (Hydundai have a bunch of GDI engines)
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2018, 02:18:21 am »
While the term "throttle" is widely applied to any mechanism of regulating power output, technically the term most accurately describes the butterfly valve or other mechanism used to restrict airflow into the engine. As a verb to throttle is to choke or suffocate.

I'm aware of GDI engines, which is why I specifically mentioned "conventional" gasoline engines. GDI is an interesting technology, I'm somewhat surprised it was not more widespread sooner as it has been around for a long time. Many of the German aircraft engines from WWII were GDI, using mechanical injection pumps similar to older diesel engines.
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2018, 04:52:46 am »
While the term "throttle" is widely applied to any mechanism of regulating power output, technically the term most accurately describes the butterfly valve or other mechanism used to restrict airflow into the engine. As a verb to throttle is to choke or suffocate.

I'm aware of GDI engines, which is why I specifically mentioned "conventional" gasoline engines. GDI is an interesting technology, I'm somewhat surprised it was not more widespread sooner as it has been around for a long time. Many of the German aircraft engines from WWII were GDI, using mechanical injection pumps similar to older diesel engines.
In general GDI engines have problems with sooth contamination in combination with exhaust recirculation. Mitsubishi can tell you all about their misfortunes when it comes to their GDI engines from the mid 90's. The primary problem is running the engines at low loads which shouldn't happen with the current downsized tubocharged engines.

See: https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=38913
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 05:04:25 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline jmelson

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2018, 05:02:16 am »
Interesting system, but yeah. Why do they use nimh in 2018 in the first place ? Why no lithium tech ?
Oh, they DON'T!  Mine is a 2009, they went to Li (something) in 2011, I think.  My daughter has an old Prius, which always had Li batteries, and hers is still going strong on the original battery.

Jon
 

Offline jmelson

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2018, 05:09:24 am »
Isn't that exactly how a throttle normally works?
The throttle of an Otto-cycle engine puts a restriction in the intake manifold, and the engine has to work against that restriction to get air into the cylinders.  This is called "pumping loss" in the industry, and is a very significant loss of engine efficiency.  The Honda scheme allows the intake valve to stay open later, bridging from the intake stroke to the compression stroke, effectively shortening the intake stroke and the charge in the cylinder.  There is SOME loss there, as air passes the intake valve twice, but there is never any manifold vacuum, so at mid-throttle conditions, the pumping loss is reduced to a tiny amount.  This is a modified Atkinson cycle engine.

They also have a mode where they can shut all 16 valves while running in pure electric mode, and there is zero fuel consumption.  Due to the small size of the motor and battery, you can't drive very far like that - like 1/4 mile down a slight hill, maybe.

Jon
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2018, 05:31:14 am »
I own two. I drive a Tesla Model-X 90D with all options and my wife has a Tesla Model-S 90D with most of the options.
I use autopilot on a daily basis to go to-from work. We both charge at home or at work.

For long trips : supercharger. We've done roadtrips to LA, Yosemite and other places. Last weekend we were in Lake County. charged the car fully the night before. Ran nonstop for 3 1/2 hours to Ukiah. Hooked it to the supercharger, went grocery shopping for 40 minutes and the battery was completely full again ( 240 miles ). Then we drove to Soda bay for a 4 day weekend. Drove around the area. plugged it in a regular 110 volt outlet during the night. That gives me about 40 miles in 10 hours. More than enough for the sightseeing and compensate for daily usage. On the way we stopped in Petaluma for lunch while hooked at the supercharger there. In 30 minuted the battery was topped off and we arrived home with 110 miles remaining.

I bought my first one almost 5 years ago Model-S 75. After driving that for almost 6 months i figured out : this is the future , and that is a company i want to work for. ( I was at ST Microelectronics at the time ). So i switched.
After my lease term was up i upgraded to a newer version Model-S. Last year i got married so my wife now drives the S and i got a model X.

I am writing this as a driver. Not as employee.

The only adaptation needed : a power outlet in the garage. As for daily driving : the battery is so large it is a non-issue.
For roadtrips : you can drive 3+ hours nonstop at highway speed. Then it is time for pipi and a starbucks anyway. Plug it in, visit restroom and grab a coffee and the thing is full.
Sure you can fill gasoline faster. But it is more fun to stretch the legs for 30 minutes. you arrive less tired at your destination.

Again : full disclosure : i work there , but i bought my first one before that. Am writing this purely as a driver of an EV. And no, there are no employee perks. All you get is free air in the tires.



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Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2018, 05:39:33 am »
Oh, they DON'T!  Mine is a 2009, they went to Li (something) in 2011, I think.  My daughter has an old Prius, which always had Li batteries, and hers is still going strong on the original battery.

Jon

My partner has a first gen Prius, it's a 2002 which is in every way I can determine, identical to the 2001 it replaced after somebody rear-ended her and totaled it. To my absolute amazement, the original battery is still going strong after 16 years. I replaced the 12V battery after it failed several years ago but never touched the traction battery. It's easily one of the most boring driving experiences I can ever recall but in terms of getting from point A to point B I have been astonished at the dependability. Of course now that I said that it will probably break down.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2018, 05:42:57 am »
They also have a mode where they can shut all 16 valves while running in pure electric mode, and there is zero fuel consumption.  Due to the small size of the motor and battery, you can't drive very far like that - like 1/4 mile down a slight hill, maybe.

What is the purpose of closing all the valves? Does the engine not disengage from the transmission in pure EV mode? I'd have thought even with the compression acting like a spring that the friction losses of spinning an engine with all the valves closed would still be huge but I don't really know.
 

Offline Kevman

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2018, 06:22:00 am »
They also have a mode where they can shut all 16 valves while running in pure electric mode, and there is zero fuel consumption.  Due to the small size of the motor and battery, you can't drive very far like that - like 1/4 mile down a slight hill, maybe.

What is the purpose of closing all the valves? Does the engine not disengage from the transmission in pure EV mode? I'd have thought even with the compression acting like a spring that the friction losses of spinning an engine with all the valves closed would still be huge but I don't really know.

All this talk about gas and diesel engines in an EV thread.  :=\

Anyway, what's the alternative? If you hold the intake valve open like an unloaded air compressor the piston will hit it at TDC and there's all kinds of losses associated with opening and closing the valve over and over for no reason.
 

Offline jmelson

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2018, 07:52:24 am »
What is the purpose of closing all the valves? Does the engine not disengage from the transmission in pure EV mode? I'd have thought even with the compression acting like a spring that the friction losses of spinning an engine with all the valves closed would still be huge but I don't really know.
In the Honda Civic Hybrid, the traction motor/generator is built into the flywheel of the IC engine.  So, Honda cheaped-out of the drivetrain.  (Probably to not infringe on the Toyota Prius drivetrain.)

The motor is permanently connected to the IC engine, if one is spinning, the other is, too.  With all valves closed, the friction in the engine is amazingly small.

If you want to check this out, you need an OLD car, pre-computerized drivetrain.  Put the transmission in LOW, and accelerate to, maybe 30 MPH.  Turn the ignition  off and simultaneously floor the accelerator.  Let the car coast for a few seconds, then take your foot off the accelerator.  The difference is the pumping loss of the engine throttle.  You will be amazed at how well the car coasts with the throttle wide open, and how quickly the engine brakes the car when you close the throttle.  (Note:  Do not turn the ignition back on while the car is moving, or you will likely blow the muffler up!)

So, it seems that they DID know what they were doing, and got quite low friction with all the mechanical works spinning.

The Honda Civic Hybrid does not really have a "pure EV mode", you cannot start from a standstill in pure EV, but you can run for very short distances or down a slight hill as a pure EV, or just coast with NO energy input, when plain inertia and potential energy are sufficient.

Jon
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2018, 11:19:00 am »
Well all of my cars qualify as old in that sense, newest I've ever owned is a 1990, every car I've had has a proper manual gearbox. I think I'll take your word for it though rather than actually trying that.
 

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2018, 03:54:20 pm »
Still I think it should read 'all valves open' and probably only the exhaust valves as to not damage the throttle and inlet because the inlet is usually made from plastic nowadays. With the valves closed you'll get compression and thus losses in the engine.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2018, 04:53:31 pm »
That was my first thought, but most modern engines are of the interference design so if the valves are left open the pistons crash and that's a really ugly situation. It may be that the valves being closed causes the pistons to behave like a reasonably efficient spring, the energy spent compressing the air is returned to the crank on the downstroke since no pumping is taking place.

I don't want to derail the thread more than I already have though.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2018, 09:25:57 pm »
That was my first thought, but most modern engines are of the interference design so if the valves are left open the pistons crash and that's a really ugly situation. It may be that the valves being closed causes the pistons to behave like a reasonably efficient spring, the energy spent compressing the air is returned to the crank on the downstroke since no pumping is taking place.
You have a point there but the laws of thermodynamics may not agree with an closed of cylinder being an efficient spring. When a gas is being compressed, it gets hot so there must be more to it than just keeping the valves closed. But yes while interesting, this is off-topic.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline jmelson

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2018, 07:56:30 am »
Still I think it should read 'all valves open' and probably only the exhaust valves as to not damage the throttle and inlet because the inlet is usually made from plastic nowadays. With the valves closed you'll get compression and thus losses in the engine.
But, the compression is (almost) exactly balanced by expansion, so the only losses are mechanical friction.  Anyway, this whole system actually works quite well, and has been rock-solid reliable, which pretty much amazes me.

Jon
 

Offline f4eru

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2018, 08:08:30 pm »
Yes, but it's pretty much obsolete by today's standards.
Because the entirety of the primary energy is still only gasoline, with it's very bad efficiency in a car engine of about 15%

Today, in state of the art vehicles and systems the primary energy required for moving the same car is reduced by a very huge factor:
- factor 2.5x reduction supposing an unlikely using 100% fossil fuels based electricity feeding a BEV through the grid
- factor 8x reduction supposing wind or hydro energy based electricity feeding a BEV through the grid
« Last Edit: August 17, 2018, 08:49:41 pm by f4eru »
 

Offline boffin

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2018, 08:20:55 am »
Still I think it should read 'all valves open' and probably only the exhaust valves as to not damage the throttle and inlet because the inlet is usually made from plastic nowadays. With the valves closed you'll get compression and thus losses in the engine.
But, the compression is (almost) exactly balanced by expansion, so the only losses are mechanical friction.  Anyway, this whole system actually works quite well, and has been rock-solid reliable, which pretty much amazes me.

Jon

It will be with the exhaust valves open.  Compressing air 9:1 generates a lot of heat taking energy out of the system.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2018, 08:25:37 am »
It will be with the exhaust valves open.  Compressing air 9:1 generates a lot of heat taking energy out of the system.

Doesn't letting that air expand absorb most of that same heat? Obviously this is not 100% efficient but nothing is. With the valves open there will be pumping losses due to the restrictions, with the valves closed there will be increased friction losses due to the greater mechanical forces on the pistons and crank but some of the energy used compressing the air will be recovered as the air expands.

I'm not an expert on these matters but I'm going to assume the Honda engineers knew what they were doing and performed extensive testing to verify the scheme had a net positive result.
 

Offline jmelson

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2018, 12:36:48 pm »
It will be with the exhaust valves open.  Compressing air 9:1 generates a lot of heat taking energy out of the system.
Believe me, I have studied what Honda did with the Civic Hybrid, they close ALL valves during shutdown and coasting.  This actually has lower losses than with some valves open, as passing gas past open valves causes fluid friction.  If you compressed gas and then let it escape, it sure would cause losses.  (That's what big trucks do when using engine braking, they compress intake air and then let it out by opening the exhaust valves early.)
But, with all valves closed and the pistons QUICKLY cycling up and down in a hot engine block, very little energy is lost from the air to the block.
The trick is the heat of compression is almost totally balanced when the cylinder charge expands as the piston goes back down, just milliseconds later.

The Honda scheme does it by using engine oil to push the cam followers sideways so they don't push on the valve tips.  Also, engine oil is used to drive the rotary cylinder that alters the intake cam timing.  Damn intricate system, but I've never heard of it going wrong.

Jon
 
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Offline f4eru

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #45 on: August 22, 2018, 02:49:57 am »
Yay, Model 3 production is running well now :
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-tracker/
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #46 on: September 11, 2018, 07:29:04 pm »
If you open the exhaust valve of a cilynder that's inactive exhaust gases would try to enter the cylinder because there's a higher pressure in the exhaust than in the cylinder.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2018, 07:49:42 pm by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
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Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #47 on: September 11, 2018, 07:47:14 pm »
Let's try again to put this into the EV fanboys' heads: to the kWh/km figures you see on the dashboard, you've got to add the charger+battery round trip losses, this guy says the overall efficiency of a Model 3 is ~80%, which means to get the real figure you've got to divide the dashboard numbers by 0.8. For example, if your EV dashboard says 233 Wh/mile the real thing is 233/0.8 = 291 Wh/mile, or 18 kWh/100 km for the europeans.

https://youtu.be/x0MjZOR89Fk

Note that that ~ 80% figure is an average though, the real losses in a supergharger are more than that, JFYI, and charging repeatedly at a supercharger shortens the life of the battery, or, IOW, damages it. Hyundai says it very clearly in the ioniq BEV owners' manual, Tesla, IDK.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 02:53:42 am by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
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Offline mtdoc

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #48 on: September 11, 2018, 09:12:22 pm »
It takes a special kind of EV hater to spend their time looking through youtube videos about EVs just to find one to try and support a lost argument from weeks ago. And then to post it in multiple threads ::)

Get over it George. It doesn’t matter whether round trip charge efficiency is 80%, 85% or 90%.  The energy effiiency and cost of ownership of a typical EV will still be far better than a typical ICE only vehicle.

We get it. You are opposed to EVs. This thread was meant to be for people with personal experiences with EVs.

 
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Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #49 on: September 12, 2018, 01:48:32 am »
It takes a special kind of EV hater [...] We get it. You are opposed to EVs. This thread was meant to be for people with personal experiences with EVs.

Look, you're making things up: my twizy is now almost 7 years old. I just want the EV fanboys to learn how to count kWh. Take it easy.
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Offline The Soulman

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #50 on: September 12, 2018, 02:16:00 am »
...my twizy is now almost 7 years old...

What mileage do you get with your twizy?
I'm looking at buying one, is 10Km per KWh a reasonable number to calculate with?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 02:43:33 am by The Soulman »
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #51 on: September 12, 2018, 02:34:04 am »
Rest assured it can do 60..70 km per charge, pedal to the floor, more (closer to 100km) if you drive like a grandma. Driving on ~ flat roads, not uphill.
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Offline janoc

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #52 on: September 12, 2018, 03:11:10 am »
It takes a special kind of EV hater to spend their time looking through youtube videos about EVs just to find one to try and support a lost argument from weeks ago. And then to post it in multiple threads ::)

Get over it George. It doesn’t matter whether round trip charge efficiency is 80%, 85% or 90%.  The energy effiiency and cost of ownership of a typical EV will still be far better than a typical ICE only vehicle.

We get it. You are opposed to EVs. This thread was meant to be for people with personal experiences with EVs.

Notice the country he is from.

Regardless of whether those efficiency numbers are valid, his costs (and mine too, if I was to buy an EV here in France) would be totally different than yours.

Here a pure EV costs about 50%-75% more than a comparable gasoline car, pushing prices of even small cars to ridiculous levels. You would be very hard pressed to find an EV under 33k-35k euro here (except for Renault Zoe but there you need to add also the monthly "battery rental" fee - yes, Renault is that retarded). For a 35k I can have a much better/larger gasoline (or even diesel) car, e.g. Mercedes C class or some BMW.

Also, if you don't own a house (a lot more people in Europe live in flats than houses vs the situation in your country) then you don't have where to charge it except for public chargers at supermarkets at such. That's extremely impractical as few people live nearby those. So all that wonderful electric fuel economy is worth exactly zero to me if I can't charge the car ...

The price and the fact that most of the current car owners wouldn't be able to have an access to a fast charger (not 15+ hours from a regular outlet, never mind that most parkings don't have even such outlets available) is one of the largest issues preventing faster adoption of EVs in Europe.

Owning a second "backup" car tends to be also very costly here, especially for large city dwellers who have to rent parking places (even in the street!) or a garage. Insurance, mandatory inspections, etc is non-negligible as well, plus insurance in most EU countries is per car, not per driver, so these costs add up very quickly if you own multiple vehicles.

And renting a car for an occasional long trip? Well, in that case it is often cheaper to take a plane than to deal with the rental here. Decent car is ~100 euro/day + gas/mileage from the usual outfits like Europcar or Avis. If I had to rent one to visit my parents 1500km from where I live, as I have done few weeks ago with my Seat Leon, I would pay about 1000 euro for the 10 days rental alone, then about 250 euro gas*. You can fly to the US and back for that and you will still have money left. Renting for such trip is just not a viable option. Been there done that ...

So you need to qualify those generalizations with: "The energy efficiency and cost of ownership of a typical EV will still be far better than a typical ICE only vehicle if you live in the US" (and, ideally, are able to afford a Tesla where you get free/subsidized SuperChargers everywhere), otherwise it is totally meaningless.

I would love to replace my diesel with an EV but it just doesn't make any sense at this point - even though 90% of my driving is just a short commute to/from work and shopping where an EV would have been ideal.

*(and possibly wouldn't be able to rent it at all because many rentals still forbid driving to the former Eastern Bloc countries, EU or not EU ... But that's a different debate)
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 03:23:21 am by janoc »
 

Offline janoc

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #53 on: September 12, 2018, 03:16:13 am »
Rest assured it can do 60..70 km per charge, pedal to the floor, more (closer to 100km) if you drive like a grandma. Driving on ~ flat roads, not uphill.

I think you are the first person I have heard to even own one of these. I have seen it at a local Renault dealership, but that's more an expensive go-cart than a car :) Do they also charge the battery rental fees for these things (like they do for the Zoe)?
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #54 on: September 12, 2018, 03:17:42 am »
So you need to qualify those generalizations with: "The energy efficiency and cost of ownership of a typical EV will still be far better than a typical ICE only vehicle if you live in the US".

By cost of ownership I was referring to what you pay to run and maintain a vehicle - not purchase price. Unless someone's cost of electricity is outrageously expensive or they are getting gasonline or diesel for free, the lower cost of ownership in that sense is a universal attribute of EVs. 

It's true that if a EVs purchase price is drastically more expensive than the equivalent ICE then over the lifetime, the lower fuel and maintenance price may not allow one to recoup the difference in purchase price. 

But of course if the argument is that the only car worth owning is the one with the cheapest overall lifetime cost - then the only cars worth owning would be very inexpensive, used tin cans.  Clearly there are other factors which go into people's automobile  purchase decisions.

Quote
(and, ideally, are able to afford a Tesla where you get free/subsidized SuperChargers everywhere)

At this time, Tesla's are the luxury end of EVs.  Most EV owners (PHEV and BEV) cannot afford a Tesla.


« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 03:24:36 am by mtdoc »
 

Offline boffin

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #55 on: September 12, 2018, 03:35:36 am »
Let's look at costs here in Western Canada (Vancouver)
EV $32k (after $5k grant)
ICE $26k
Here I'm comparing a VW eGolf vs a VW Golf (similarly equipped)

Cost of Operation:
EV: 18kWh/100km (real world experience, about 15kWh/100 before charging losses) @ C$0.085/kWh = C$1.53/100km
ICE: 8.5l/100km (NRC Combined) @ 1.469/l = $12.49/100km

Cost of Maintenance:
The EV will have an advantage, the typical service interval is 2yrs/30,000km. No oil changes every 10k

I'll make up that $6000 difference before 60,000km even without the maintenance savings.  In reality it will be faster, because some charging is done at free charging sites, and not at home.
 

Offline janoc

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #56 on: September 12, 2018, 03:37:12 am »
So you need to qualify those generalizations with: "The energy efficiency and cost of ownership of a typical EV will still be far better than a typical ICE only vehicle if you live in the US".

By cost of ownership I was referring to what you pay to run and maintain a vehicle - not purchase price. Unless someone's cost of electricity is outrageously expensive or they are getting gasonline or diesel for free, the lower cost of ownership in that sense is a universal attribute of EVs. 


I do understand your point but the running economy is only part of the equations. If you can't charge the EV then it won't help you much that you have a cheap electricity.

There is also part that is the utility value of the car - if I have to choose between a Twingo-sized electric Zoe that barely seats two adults or e.g. my Leon which is still considered a "compact" car (it would come to +- same price), then I am going to pick the Leon even if it costs more to run it over its lifetime*. The value is much better because I can actually transport people and things with it.

*(Mostly on maintenance. Although with the Zoe you have to pay about 100 euro/month for "battery rental" - a full tank of gas costs less than that even here where the gas is much more expensive than the US ...).

Quote
(and, ideally, are able to afford a Tesla where you get free/subsidized SuperChargers everywhere)
At this time, Tesla's are the luxury end of EVs.  Most EV owners (PHEV and BEV) cannot afford a Tesla.

Yes, sure. However, why I was mentioning that is that Tesla is the only one who is both subsidizing the fast charging (either totally free for or they are now charging the new owners a steeply discounted price) and actually has a fast charger network built in the US (much less in Europe, though). That is going to skew things a lot. So if you can afford a Tesla, you have a reasonable chance of getting a good utility value out of your car. People who can't do that and have to buy cheaper vehicles don't have such advantage, so that will make the electric or even plug-in hybrid cars much less attractive for them. Especially as many hybrids (whether plug-in or not) are electric only in a very token fashion and after a few kilometers you need to run the gasoline engine anyway.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #57 on: September 12, 2018, 03:46:02 am »
Cost of Maintenance:
The EV will have an advantage, the typical service interval is 2yrs/30,000km. No oil changes every 10k
A modern ICE needs an oil change every 25k to 30k km so there is no real difference there when it comes to service intervals. What is more interesting are the costs after driving 100k km and 200k km. People seem to forget there is much more to an EV than a piece of copper wire wound around bits of metal that makes it go. I strongly doubt an EV will be cheaper to run because the overall complexity of the car hasn't been reduced. Think about the drive electronics and battery cooling/heating system for starters. Earlier I posted some links showing the maintenance for an EV was more expensive compared to a similar ICE based car.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 03:47:36 am by nctnico »
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Offline mtdoc

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #58 on: September 12, 2018, 03:52:24 am »
A modern ICE needs an oil change every 25k to 30k km so there is no real difference there when it comes to service intervals.

But an BEV will require no oil change and an PHEV driven mostly in EV mode may only  require an oil change every 90k to 100k km (or less often).

An EV will require very rare brake service whereas a typical ICE brake service is a regular high cost.

An EV will not require any transmission or clutch service whereas a typical ICE  service theses is very expensive.

Also an ICEs cooling system is much more prone to problems and need of reqular service than an ICEs.

If you actually owned an EV you might realize that there is no comparison in terms of service intervals or maintenence costs. EVs are hands down - much less expensive to maintain.
 
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Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #59 on: September 12, 2018, 03:54:41 am »
And there are no 3rd party parts... so good luck if the inverter blows up, or if one cell of the 7 thousand 18650s dies out of warranty, or even if the dashboard "ipad" goes west.
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Offline The Soulman

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #60 on: September 12, 2018, 03:58:14 am »
Rest assured it can do 60..70 km per charge, pedal to the floor, more (closer to 100km) if you drive like a grandma. Driving on ~ flat roads, not uphill.

Thanks, my longest trips would be max. 30 Km between recharges, so the range I'm not concerned about.
More interested in the economic side, as the Netherlands is one of the few country's where it is not possible to purchase the battery,
instead it most be leased at 65 euro per month (with maximum 10.000 Km per year).
So it is very close to the costs of a "normal" small car and I'm calculating if it will be cost efficient at all.

I don't drive in heavy traffic and it is as flat as a pancake here, is 80 Km per charge (6 KWh) reasonable?
So (80Km/6KWh)*0,85 (charging efficiency) = 11 Km per KWh?

Last but not least, what version do you have 45 or 80 Kmh?
 

Offline bicycleguy

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #61 on: September 12, 2018, 04:08:36 am »
I've tracked my electricity use since 1978.  Attached is my use since the current house.
Can you guess when I purchased a Chevy Spark.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #62 on: September 12, 2018, 04:09:53 am »
A modern ICE needs an oil change every 25k to 30k km so there is no real difference there when it comes to service intervals.

But an BEV will require no oil change and an PHEV driven mostly in EV mode may only  require an oil change every 90k to 100k km (or less often).

An EV will require very rare brake service whereas a typical ICE brake service is a regular high cost.

An EV will not require any transmission or clutch service whereas a typical ICE  service theses is very expensive.

Also an ICEs cooling system is much more prone to problems and need of reqular service than an ICEs.

If you actually owned an EV you might realize that there is no comparison in terms of service intervals or maintenence costs. EVs are hands down - much less expensive to maintain.
I'm starting to wonder if you ever had a good ICE based car and/or get screwed by the dealer you take your cars for service. For example brakes are extremely easy and cheap to service/replace. It shouldn't take more than half an hour to replace the pads. It shouldn't cost more than 60 to 70 euro.

Also I never had any of the problems you listed except on cars which where end-of-life (over 320k km). To give an example: the running costs of my cars has been between 13  and 17 euro cents per km. But then again I carefully select my cars for lowest TCO.

I think you should take off your pink glasses. An EV has a more complicated cooling system which is basically is an airconditioning. An aircondition in a car needs to be serviced about every 4 years due to inherent leakage of the refridgerant. An EV has wheel bearings, a transmission (fixed), drive axles with homokinetic joints, shock absorbers, etc, etc which all need repairs at some point. Due to the higher weight I'd suspect an EV will need more frequent change of tires as well. And not to forget the possible replacement of the battery pack at some point.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 04:13:31 am by nctnico »
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Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #63 on: September 12, 2018, 04:15:27 am »
Rest assured it can do 60..70 km per charge, pedal to the floor, more (closer to 100km) if you drive like a grandma. Driving on ~ flat roads, not uphill.

Thanks, my longest trips would be max. 30 Km between recharges, so the range I'm not concerned about.
More interested in the economic side, as the Netherlands is one of the few country's where it is not possible to purchase the battery,
instead it most be leased at 65 euro per month (with maximum 10.000 Km per year).
So it is very close to the costs of a "normal" small car and I'm calculating if it will be cost efficient at all.

Cost efficient? Maybe not, to buy a twizy you have to like it :-) and have to have a garage, and can't leave it alone anywhere in the street because it's got no doors, and no A/C so only can take it when the weather is alright, and...

Quote
I don't drive in heavy traffic and it is as flat as a pancake here, is 80 Km per charge (6 KWh) reasonable?
So (80Km/6KWh)*0,85 (charging efficiency) = 11 Km per KWh?

That's about right, if your right foot isn't too heavy.

Quote
Last but not least, what version do you have 45 or 80 Kmh?

The 80.
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Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #64 on: September 12, 2018, 04:19:17 am »
Fanboys like to repeat ad nauseam, like broken records, that EVs are "less complicated" when in fact they are more complicated, and have more parts than an ICE. A Tesla about seven thousand parts more to begin with.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 04:20:52 am by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #65 on: September 12, 2018, 04:21:28 am »
I also looked at the Twizy but the lack of doors and needing to lease the battery made me dismiss it. In the NL the period with nice weather is about 5 months. Also the Twizy is too wide to manoeuvre through a traffic jam. It could be a good solution for specific trips if the situation on the road is suitable for such a small vehicle.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 04:23:24 am by nctnico »
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Offline mtdoc

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #66 on: September 12, 2018, 04:27:15 am »

I'm starting to wonder if you ever had a good ICE based car and/or get screwed by the dealer you take your cars for service.

You're just spewing nonsense now.

I've owned approximately 20 ICE vehicles over 40 years.  I bought my first car - a used Datsun 510 at age 16.  Until about 10 years ago, I did almost all the service myself - oil changes, brake jobs, transmission service.  I have rebuilt ICE engines, changed several clutches.  I never have rebuilt a transmission.

Even when I was doing my own service, the cost of maintenance of an ICE was not cheap.

I've owned a PHEV (Chevy Volt) for 4 years now. Total cost of maintenance has been $50 for one oil change (The second one, which I just had done. The first oil change was free). Brake pads are still at  > 90%. Other than another oil change every 2 years or so, the only regular maintenance cost I anticipate in the next 5 -10 years is a set of new tires and some windshield wiper blades.

My experience is typical. Just look at the Chevy Volt forum or any EV forum. Most of whose members have long experience with ICE vehicles.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 04:30:31 am by mtdoc »
 

Offline The Soulman

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #67 on: September 12, 2018, 04:39:30 am »
I also looked at the Twizy but the lack of doors and needing to lease the battery made me dismiss it. In the NL the period with nice weather is about 5 months. Also the Twizy is too wide to manoeuvre through a traffic jam. It could be a good solution for specific trips if the situation on the road is suitable for such a small vehicle.

Doors are available as an option, windows are available as well (at least aftermarket).
I've driven one a couple of years ago and I like it, and beats riding a electric bicycle: more shelter, higher top speed, ability to carry a passenger, etc etc.
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Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #68 on: September 12, 2018, 04:39:53 am »
JFTR, the transmission of a Volt is orders of magnitude more complicated than that of a normal ICE.

https://gm-volt.com/2009/11/09/engineering-design-of-the-chevy-volts-two-electric-motors/
int main (void) { while (1) fork(); }
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #69 on: September 12, 2018, 04:50:30 am »
JFTR, the transmission of a Volt is orders of magnitude more complicated than that of a normal ICE.

https://gm-volt.com/2009/11/09/engineering-design-of-the-chevy-volts-two-electric-motors/

I've seen no one claim that an EV is less complicated.

More complicated does not necessarily mean less reliable or more expensive to maintain.

Early ICE vehicles were very simple and very expensive to maintain.

Everyone on this forum should understand that a well designed and built modern electronic device is much more reliable and easier to maintain than earlier generation less complicated electronics or, god forbid, mechanical devices.

There are Chevy Volts that have been on the road for 8 or 9 years now - some with 200k miles on them. They have proven to be extremely reliable vehicles.
 

Offline janoc

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #70 on: September 12, 2018, 04:57:22 am »
Seriously, I don't know what you drove (or whether the American cars are so crappy!) but e.g. my Leon is 9 years old and still on the same brakes (pads and discs) as when I got it in 2012. Granted, I do maybe 15k kilometers a year only. But even then the replacement would be around 300 euro, work included.

What sort of service does your transmission need? Older cars needed oil change every few years, more modern ones don't need that or the intervals are fairly long (60k km and more). That's for stick shift cars or something like the VW DSG (dual clutch) transmissions, though. Automatics are possibly more demanding - didn't own one, so no idea how much that costs.

Clutch? Again, how often do you change that for it to even be a factor? Clutch should last at least 150k kilometers, possibly more if you don't drive like an idiot. Certainly didn't need to change it so far, even though the car has 130k on the odo.

Most of my maintenance costs are annual oil change (+ filters), cleaning the AC, replacing the brake and cooling fluid every two years and occasional small fix like wheel geometry adjustment or AC refill. These things cost about 300-400 euro/year at the dealership and most of them will need to be done regardless of whether you have electric or regular car. Then small stuff like wiper blades, light bulbs, filling up the windshield washer liquid, new battery two years ago, etc.

Out of the larger repairs I had to replace the timing belt & accessories (at 120k km) which was about 800 euro. And then later shocks will  need to be changed, which is about the same amount. But that is something you do maybe twice or three times tops during the life of the car.

Maybe I am very lucky that I didn't have to do expensive repairs with this car yet but then I had a Clio before it was pretty much the same story - despite paying premium for having it serviced at the Renault dealership (I had it across the road from where I live).
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 05:02:21 am by janoc »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #71 on: September 12, 2018, 04:58:32 am »
There are Chevy Volts that have been on the road for 8 or 9 years now - some with 200k miles on them. They have proven to be extremely reliable vehicles.
This is amusingly ridiculous. You can go on any used car website and find many ICE cars with 200k (or more) miles on them which still drive well and will do so for many miles/kilometer more. I can find nearly 2500 on a used car website targeted at the NL. The days a car was ready for demolition after 100k km are long gone (decades ago).

@Janoc: your 150k km is a bit low. On my previous two cars the clutch failed at 300k km and 340k km. On my current car it is still good at 300k km.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 05:04:07 am by nctnico »
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Offline janoc

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #72 on: September 12, 2018, 05:04:48 am »
@Janoc: your 150k km is a bit low. On my previous two cars the clutch failed at 300k km and 340k km. On my current car it is still good at 300k km.

I believe that, I was quoting the manufacturer's ratings which tend to be very conservative. I am sure the real world values are more than that. The clutch in my car is also going strong still.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #73 on: September 12, 2018, 05:09:43 am »
There are Chevy Volts that have been on the road for 8 or 9 years now - some with 200k miles on them. They have proven to be extremely reliable vehicles.
This is amusingly ridiculous. You can go on any used car website and find ICE cars with 200k (or more) miles on them which still drive well and will do so for many miles/kilometer more. The days a car was ready for demolition after 100k km are long gone (decades ago).

You are being transparently disingenuous.

 I never claimed that modern ICE cars are not also reliable. I was responding to the insinuation by George and your earlier post that because EVs are complicated that that makes them somehow less reliable or more subject to maintenance costs - both of which are demonstrably false.

You seem to have a pattern of going into multiple threads and making multiple posts spewing nonsense about equipment that you don't own and therefore don't like -  EVs, Apple products, any Oscilloscope that s  not a GW Instek or MicSig, etc, etc.   What's up with that?  ::)

Since you have no experience with an EV, why are you posting in this thread?
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #74 on: September 12, 2018, 06:58:07 am »
Let's try again to put this into the EV fanboys' heads: to the kWh/km figures you see on the dashboard, you've got to add the charger+battery round trip losses,"
What charger roundtrip?. You charge AT HOME. Zero roundtrip loss! Unless you have a gasoline pump at home : you can't do that in an ICE ...
The public chargers are there for your convenience and to enable long trips, just like for regular fuel pumps. They are not for daily usage. That is a big misconception.

A charger for an EV is equivalent to a fuel pump for an ICE.
You can't fill up an ICE at home. (unless you own a fuel pump)

You CAN fill up an EV at home. (simply plug in overnight)
You CAN fill up an EV at work. (many companies install chargers for their employees)
You CAN fill up an EV at many shopping malls , public parkings (many shopping malls and public parkings install chargers for EV's)

It's a matter of plugging the thing in when you come home.
On a standard 240 volt outlet at 30 ampere , assuming i plug the thing in at 8PM , i get 10 hours of charge by 6AM... That's 60 Kilowatts... More than half my battery pack. Not a problem. If i get an 80 Amp charger i can blast the battery full (100Kw) in less than 6 hours.

Again : the superchargers are there to let you drive long distance. I went to Lake Tahoe last weekend. Left home with a full battery , Stopped in Manteca after a 2 hour drive, topped it off while going pipi and grabbing an icecream. Drove all the way To Stateline, Nevada. Pulled in to Hard Rock casino, plugged in car, went for dinner and my pack was completely full. Drove around Tahoe , went to Reno , topped off at the Gigafactory back to Tahoe. On the way back home we left Tahoe with 170 miles of range. We hit Sacramento with 176 miles of range ! I ended up with more range because Tahoe is at an altitude of 6000ft. Most of the trajectory was downhill so consumption was zilch. Actually regeneration pushed the battery up to over 210 miles of range at one point. In sacramento we did another bathroom stop and grabbed a sandwich from Subway. By the time we were back at the car (we hadn't eaten sandwich yet, just picked up) the counter was at 265 miles. We drove another 3 hours to get home and had 70 miles remaining ...

A couple of weeks ago we spent time in Clear Lake. there is imply plugged in to a regular 110 volts 10 ampere outlet. That gives me roughly 4 miles per hour of charge. Whenever we were at the house i plugged in. Overnight that gave me easily 50+ miles. ( arrive at 7pm , leave next day around 9AM : which is 14 hours of charging). More than enough to compensate the driving around the area.

Large packs is the key.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 07:03:17 am by free_electron »
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Offline boffin

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #75 on: September 12, 2018, 07:05:42 am »
Cost of Maintenance:
The EV will have an advantage, the typical service interval is 2yrs/30,000km. No oil changes every 10k
A modern ICE needs an oil change every 25k to 30k km so there is no real difference there when it comes to service intervals. What is more interesting are the costs after driving 100k km and 200k km. People seem to forget there is much more to an EV than a piece of copper wire wound around bits of metal that makes it go. I strongly doubt an EV will be cheaper to run because the overall complexity of the car hasn't been reduced. Think about the drive electronics and battery cooling/heating system for starters. Earlier I posted some links showing the maintenance for an EV was more expensive compared to a similar ICE based car.

let's not do this again, where I show you a real world value, and you pick the outlying (non-warranty approved in this case) edge case of oil every 25,000km.
Compare Apples to Apples, warranty approved maintenance schedules; per VW Service per https://owners.vwmodels.ca/maintenance/timeline/

All vehicles require 'inspections', but these are the required replacement items

VW Golf service
15k oil, filter & plug
30k oil, filter & plug, pollen filter
45k oil, filter & plug
60k oil, filter & plug, pollen filter, spark plugs
75k oil, filter & plug
90k oil, filter & plug, oil plug gasket, pollen filter, air filter
105k oil, filter & plug
120k oil, filter & plug, pollen filter, spark plugs
135k oil, filter & plug
150k oil, filter & plug, pollen filter
165k oil, filter & plug
180k oil, filter & plug, pollen filter, air filter, spark plugs

VW eGolf service
15k none
30k pollen filter
45k none
60k pollen filter
75k none
90k pollen filter
105k none
120k pollen filter
135k none
150k pollen filter
165k none
180k pollen filter







 
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Offline boffin

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #76 on: September 12, 2018, 07:11:09 am »
... I bought my first car - a used Datsun 510 at age 16.  Until about 10 years ago, I did almost all the service myself - oil changes, brake jobs, transmission service.  I have rebuilt ICE engines, changed several clutches.  I never have rebuilt a transmission.

A fine choice.  My 1st car was a 510 as well. The L engines were completely bulletproof, sadly the body was biodegradable.  Did almost all my service in the driveway as well.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #77 on: September 12, 2018, 07:39:49 am »
... I bought my first car - a used Datsun 510 at age 16.  Until about 10 years ago, I did almost all the service myself - oil changes, brake jobs, transmission service.  I have rebuilt ICE engines, changed several clutches.  I never have rebuilt a transmission.

A fine choice.  My 1st car was a 510 as well. The L engines were completely bulletproof, sadly the body was biodegradable.  Did almost all my service in the driveway as well.

I loved that car. It was a sleeper performance car the time - popular with street racers.  I did some performance mods that unfortunately meant it would not pass the California smog inspection at the time. Had to buy the local alcoholic smog inspector a bottle of Seagrams 7 to get him to pass it.  True story.
 

Offline julianhigginson

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #78 on: September 12, 2018, 04:19:18 pm »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #79 on: September 13, 2018, 06:13:09 am »
Cost of Maintenance:
The EV will have an advantage, the typical service interval is 2yrs/30,000km. No oil changes every 10k
A modern ICE needs an oil change every 25k to 30k km so there is no real difference there when it comes to service intervals. What is more interesting are the costs after driving 100k km and 200k km. People seem to forget there is much more to an EV than a piece of copper wire wound around bits of metal that makes it go. I strongly doubt an EV will be cheaper to run because the overall complexity of the car hasn't been reduced. Think about the drive electronics and battery cooling/heating system for starters. Earlier I posted some links showing the maintenance for an EV was more expensive compared to a similar ICE based car.
let's not do this again, where I show you a real world value, and you pick the outlying (non-warranty approved in this case) edge case of oil every 25,000km.
The only thing you are showing is that an ICE VW Golf is expensive to maintain. My own Ford Focus from 2006 needs an oil change every 20k km according to the manual. And there are cars out there with even longer oil change intervals. Saying that longer intervals are non-warranty approved is just nonsense. If it says 20k km in the manual from the manufacturer then it is warranty approved.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #80 on: September 13, 2018, 09:33:14 am »
My own Ford Focus from 2006 needs an oil change every 20k km according to the manual.

Really?  Why does Ford say oil changes should be every 5000 mi (8000 km) for pre 2008 cars and every 7500 mi (12000 km) for newer cars?

In any case you’re flogging a dead horse again with your apples to oranges comparison.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 11:22:07 am by mtdoc »
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #81 on: September 13, 2018, 01:26:51 pm »
Either way the endless EV-bashing mental gymnastics are a bit tiresome to say the least. IMHO someone who has never owned or even driven one really has nothing to stand on, it's just a baseless religious argument polluting an otherwise constructive thread.
 
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Offline CCitizenTO

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #82 on: September 14, 2018, 06:14:38 am »
Rental cars are cheap in the US. $30-40 a day, $200-300 for a week with unlimited miles. Auto insurance alone in most parts of the US will cost you $1000 a year per vehicle for liability coverage alone.
My car insurance costs way less but due to not claiming anything for many years got me a hefty discount.

Those low rental prices usually are for very small cars. If you want a decent car the price nearly doubles and then there is the extra insurance. But as I wrote before I already tried to 'optimise' cars. My previous car was a sedan. My thinking was: I don't need a station wagon every day and I'll sort things out when I need to transport something large. Well that turned out to be a really bad idea. Fortunately my wife had a relatively large hatch-back so I could use that to transport larger items but it still didn't do the job well. I recall buying a couple of windows but those where too large for the lid to close so I had to drive around to find a shopping mall first to but a piece of rope to tie it shut. Same for a dish-washer and many other items. Buying a car which can't do the 1% you need every now and then just sucks. Nowadays I'm back to the station wagon. I hope this underlines my point when I'm saying that buying a car which can only do 99% (or less) of the use cases is going to be a nuisance because it doesn't deliver when you need it the most.

You don't need a cube van every day but if you have to move from one place to another you can always rent one from U-Haul. Pretty much the same thing you're talking about. If you can't fit the dish washer in the car then maybe you need to pay a few bucks and have it delivered rather than renting a car for the purpose.
 

Online sokoloff

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #83 on: September 14, 2018, 06:17:44 am »
I rent a trailer from UHaul probably 1.5 times per year on average. I'm surely not going to pick my daily driver sized for the largest thing I'll ever move and 99.5% of the time be driving around in something that comically large, all to avoid a $25 charge every 8 months or so...
 

Offline boffin

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #84 on: September 14, 2018, 06:33:06 am »
My own Ford Focus from 2006 needs an oil change every 20k km according to the manual.

Really?  Why does Ford say oil changes should be every 5000 mi (8000 km) for pre 2008 cars and every 7500 mi (12000 km) for newer cars?

In any case you’re flogging a dead horse again with your apples to oranges comparison.


He's completely obsessed with Ford, so let's feed him new and 2006 Ford data.

Yeah, here in Canada the documentation says 12,000-16,000km for new cars under 'normal' conditions, it's controlled by how much load the car feels it's been under.
https://www.ford.ca/resources/ford/general/pdf/service/414919_ServiceBrochure_8.5x11_EN.pdf

As for older cars, I couldn't find the Canadian reference, but the US 2006 schedule is every 5000mi (8000km)
http://www.fordservicecontent.com/Ford_Content/catalog/owner_guides/06mermg3e.pdf
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #85 on: September 15, 2018, 05:33:58 am »
My own Ford Focus from 2006 needs an oil change every 20k km according to the manual.
Really?  Why does Ford say oil changes should be every 5000 mi (8000 km) for pre 2008 cars and every 7500 mi (12000 km) for newer cars?

In any case you’re flogging a dead horse again with your apples to oranges comparison.
He's completely obsessed with Ford, so let's feed him new and 2006 Ford data.

Yeah, here in Canada the documentation says 12,000-16,000km for new cars under 'normal' conditions, it's controlled by how much load the car feels it's been under.
https://www.ford.ca/resources/ford/general/pdf/service/414919_ServiceBrochure_8.5x11_EN.pdf
Perhaps the Fords over there are build to different quality standards needing more maintenance than the European versions. BTW I'm not obsessed with Ford. Actually I was brought up to dislike Ford like southern red-necks dislike colored people and Hillary Clinton. I'm just going for the car with the lowest TCO. Previous cars where from Toyota, Mitsubishi and Mazda.

BTW the same seems to be true for your beloved VW. According to this website (in Dutch) most ICE models (before AND after 2014) need servicing every 30k km.
https://www.volkswagen.nl/service/onderhoud/volkswagen-onderhoudsbeurt
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 05:40:05 am by nctnico »
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Offline SeanB

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #86 on: September 15, 2018, 04:52:26 pm »
The 20k and 30k service intervals are designed to get the car out of warranty with lowest cost to the manufacturer, as they often come with a motorplan that covers all services for a fixed period or a fixed mileage. However this means the engfine has by then built up signifigant sludge and this causes problems further down the line after the motorplan is up with excessive engine wear and bearing failure. Plenty of VW and Ford engines fail after warranty is expired with that service interval, simply because the sludge build up has caused excessive wear on the engine. The 2.0/2.2 TDI engine is very well known for grenading the oil pump and also wearing the valve train from sludge build up, as it has that long service interval.

Almost as if the manufacturers saying you have to buy a new car every 5 years. Worst id the trio of Renault/Citroen/Peugoet with the cars they build having a designed in 7 year lifetime of major components. Expensive to replace engine and gearbox on a 7 year old car just out of warranty when the bearings, gears, sliding surfaces are all worn past repair. Change the oil a lot more regular and they will last.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #87 on: September 15, 2018, 05:42:48 pm »
Plenty of VW and Ford engines fail after warranty is expired with that service interval, simply because the sludge build up has caused excessive wear on the engine. The 2.0/2.2 TDI engine is very well known for grenading the oil pump and also wearing the valve train from sludge build up, as it has that long service interval.
If you look across all the cars then you'll see that many brands have problems with the engines. Most notably the engines made by PSA (French). But also Toyota and VW have had series of engines which are subject to excessive wear. In most cases these problems are fixed outside the warranty as well as part of a recall. Either way: do your homework before buying a used car. I also noticed that not every garage knows which oil to put in a particular car so you need to keep an eye on that as well.

edit: my point is in the end car manufacturers are not going to specify maintenance intervals which shorten the useful life of a car because that will reduce the resale value for the first owner. A shorter useful life makes the car more expensive instead of cheaper.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 04:26:53 am by nctnico »
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Offline a59d1

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #88 on: October 01, 2018, 10:08:13 am »
Actually I was brought up to dislike Ford like southern red-necks dislike colored people and Hillary Clinton.

 :wtf:
 

Offline Wan Huang Luo

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #89 on: November 07, 2018, 04:21:25 am »
BMW i3, spent more time in the shop than out of the shop. Literally in and out of the shop two dozen times over a two year period. I drove loaner BMWs from the dealership more than I drove that electric turd. They even replaced the battery. When the lease ended and that lemon went back to their hands I felt a great sense of relief.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #90 on: November 07, 2018, 04:41:35 am »
I wonder if that's typical? What sort of problems did it have? The i3 is one of the few mainstream EVs I have never known anyone who owned one.
 

Offline Wan Huang Luo

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #91 on: November 07, 2018, 04:44:32 am »
Not sure if they were typical or not. I might have just been handed a lemon. Most of the issues related to the two-cylinder engine as mine was the range extended variant.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #92 on: November 07, 2018, 04:46:42 am »
Not sure if they were typical or not. I might have just been handed a lemon. Most of the issues related to the two-cylinder engine as mine was the range extended variant.
Interesting. Was it the engine itself, or the way it integrates with the car? I thought they used a proven engine from other applications.
 

Offline Wan Huang Luo

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #93 on: November 07, 2018, 06:19:27 am »
The engine oxygen sensors, emissions sensors, fuel filler door sensor, this sensor, that sensor, ...  were repeated points of failure
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #94 on: November 07, 2018, 09:27:48 am »
If I were going to get an EV, I'd get a pure EV. One of the big attractions is not having to deal with any of that ICE related stuff. I don't want to drag around two separate powerplants and all the associated control gear and energy supply for both.
 

Offline jh15

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #95 on: November 07, 2018, 05:00:59 pm »
I say when talking anout my S, even before seeing it, they don't want a car with gadgets.

I understood when choosing my car, it would have gadgets.

However, buying any ICE car, you still have gadgets, and soon auto crash sensing, dog poop on seat in rear sensor etc.

You are still dragging around a block of engine to crash into your lap, exhaust, transmission, fluid changes, stinky garage when leaving,

Dealer? We ordered ours, factpry to us delivered on a Tesla flatbed. (the guy wished they would get rid of the ICE delivery vehicle.

And like planned appleescence, you can be sure your dealer will either milk you on this or say no longer supported, your engine controller is "vintage". While trying you to upsell o another car on their lot.
Our car keeps getting better without trading in.
tek 575 curve tracer top shape, 535 top shape, 465. 545 hickok clone, Telsa Model S,  Ohio Scientific c24P single board computer, many c-64 from my club days, Giant electric bicycle, Rigol stuff, Heathkit AR-15 receivers 2, Heathkit et 3400a trainer and interface,
 

Offline Wan Huang Luo

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #96 on: November 08, 2018, 01:26:51 am »
If I were going to get an EV, I'd get a pure EV. One of the big attractions is not having to deal with any of that ICE related stuff. I don't want to drag around two separate powerplants and all the associated control gear and energy supply for both.
Great point; the "REx" in the BMW is a pathetic kludge that provided only 70 (!!!) miles of extra range with a gas tank that took only about 1.5 gallons to fill up. I did a 900 mile (each way) road trip with that car. It was awful. If I had access to Tesla-style fast charging and 300 miles real range, that would have been a pleasure instead of a nightmare.
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #97 on: November 08, 2018, 03:24:33 am »
I'd love an electric car, I just wish they were more standard and not a niche product.  I can't justify paying the cost of a new car (any car) so I only buy used and since they are so niche the odds of finding a used one is super slim.

My biggest worry as far as viability would be -40 days but I'm thinking it would be fine.  My work is about 5km from my house so a car that has a 100km advertised range would be more than good enough for me.  ex: even if I got a used where the battery is at like half capacity I'd be ok with that. 

If I had a big heated garage to work in I would consider starting a project car where I do an EV conversion of a gas car.  Would be a pretty neat project.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #98 on: November 08, 2018, 03:28:29 am »
No need to buy a new car, most of the people I know who have them bought used. My dad and a friend of mine each bought a Nissan Leaf when a big lot of them came off lease a few years ago, both have been trouble free. Another friend bought a Chevy Bolt a couple years ago, he also has been raving about it non stop, I don't recall what he paid for the Bolt but the Leafs were under $10k. I would never personally buy a brand new car either, I'll gladly let someone else take that big depreciation hit.
 

Online sokoloff

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #99 on: November 08, 2018, 04:06:27 am »
I'd love an electric car, I just wish they were more standard and not a niche product.  I can't justify paying the cost of a new car (any car) so I only buy used and since they are so niche the odds of finding a used one is super slim.

My biggest worry as far as viability would be -40 days but I'm thinking it would be fine.  My work is about 5km from my house so a car that has a 100km advertised range would be more than good enough for me.  ex: even if I got a used where the battery is at like half capacity I'd be ok with that. 

If I had a big heated garage to work in I would consider starting a project car where I do an EV conversion of a gas car.  Would be a pretty neat project.
4 years used is likely to have a 80-90% battery on a LEAF, probably on the higher end of that. In -40° weather, the range will be even worse, but multiple 5km round trips should still be easily, easily doable. Battery heating is the issue. There is an on-board heater that runs (IIRC) when the car is charged above 30% and the battery is below -20°C (-4°F) until the battery is above -10°C (14°F). This heater obviously takes power from the traction pack and cuts into your range (unless you can keep the car plugged in, in which case the heater usage is replenished). Even wit the heating, the range is reduced as cold batteries store less energy than warm batteries. Again, your commute is almost ideal for this.

Buying them used is no problem; the market is thick with them.

On doing a conversion, that was my plan 8+ years ago. Now, the production cars are readily available and have a production car level of fit and finish, so if you want to own an electric, just buy one. If you want to build one, build one, but if the owning and driving is the point, just buy one... :)
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #100 on: November 08, 2018, 11:56:46 am »
I hardly even see any NEW ones so I can't see how there would be a lot on the used market, unless I'd want to start shopping down south.  Though I guess that would be an option once I'm in the market for another car I could just look at down south classifieds instead of local. Can always fly down and then drive it back.

As for battery heater, does it run even when car is just parked?  I would have figured it would only run when you first go to start the car.  Basically use the battery at reduced capacity for a bit, to warm itself up, then the capacity would increase a bit.  I guess there would be a sweet spot there as to how much capacity you really want to use to warm it up so that it makes up for capacity loss if it's cold.
 

Online sokoloff

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #101 on: November 08, 2018, 12:05:05 pm »
It runs while parked (and under those conditions). I think they all have battery heaters as you can’t really only preheat the battery while running the car and no one wants to turn the car on an hour ahead of time.
 

Offline radar_macgyver

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #102 on: November 08, 2018, 12:13:48 pm »
Not all cars implement active thermal management, a notable one is the Nissan Leaf. They do offer a cold weather package with a heater, but no liquid thermal management system.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #103 on: November 08, 2018, 05:01:17 pm »
They come in waves as the leases run out, those are typically several years long and then there will be a pile of them for sale. Another wave should be coming up within the next couple of years. They may not be nearly as common in some areas as others but it's not that big of a deal to buy cars from other regions, there are even services out there to locate and transport them. I see new ones all over the place out here, EVs have proven very popular with the tech industry crowd.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #104 on: November 09, 2018, 02:00:16 am »
They come in waves as the leases run out, those are typically several years long and then there will be a pile of them for sale. Another wave should be coming up within the next couple of years. They may not be nearly as common in some areas as others but it's not that big of a deal to buy cars from other regions, there are even services out there to locate and transport them. I see new ones all over the place out here, EVs have proven very popular with the tech industry crowd.
Why would leases run out in waves? Surely a steady stream of leases expire month by month.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #105 on: November 09, 2018, 03:44:15 am »
I don't know, it's just what I've observed, maybe it's the first production run, or maybe people update to the latest model, or maybe people buy cars more certain times of the year. I wouldn't really know, I've always bought old cars from private sellers.
 

Offline timgiles

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #106 on: December 15, 2018, 08:44:00 am »
My wife and I private lease a Kia Niro PHEV in Umeå Sweden. It does not have battery heating as far as I know, but the fully EV one (just released) does.

Some good points:

1. Battery charge in very cold weather (-20oC so far) is AOK, charges fine and range seems to be the same
2. 55km is stated electric only range, our commute is 54km and when leaving the car states it has between 54 and 57km each day
3. Charging is adjustable - we have awful electricity supply at home, so we charge at 4-5A for 7-8 hours to recharge each night
4. This can be adjusted up to 16A on the home charger they give you (standard swedish 2 pin plug)
5. The car can also be set to charge at a different rate on commercial chargers (again from 4-5A up to 16A) - so we never have to adjust the car

Some less good points:

1. The heating is provided by a small petrol engine that helps the car along when accelerating hard or low on power
2. This is clearly not set up well for swedish winters - as the car will sit in HEV (hybrid or petrol mode) for ages (40 mins ish) and switch to El only for 2-4 mins and back to HEV for 10-15... rinse and repeat
 Even though the car has plenty of heat in the radiator. You cant stop this from happening unless you turn off the heating in the car (within 1 minute you have frost on the windscreen inside).... so - not great
3. European drivers do not have access to the remote app for the car like yanks do - so there is no preheat in the cabin etc... We can get a fan heater installed, but this is less than optimal.

But - on spring, summer and autumn days, we reduce our commute costs by over 90%. Winter days, warmer than -12oC, the same, colder, it costs us about 50% what our A4 B6 1.8T avant did. So - it will be ok for the 3 years, but we are going fully BEV electric once the lease is complete.
 
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Offline jh15

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #107 on: December 27, 2018, 10:53:05 pm »
My (wife's) model S makes some noises when parked. On really hot or cold days when randomly walked by. The hvac system keeps the battery in range. It is usually plugged in all the time at home, but when lrft unplugged, probably a couple miles/day is sapped out.

The battery thermal management is what gives long life. The Nissan Leaf had poor thermal management and southern hot climate owners were getting battery problems.

On the "Now You Know" podcast the son said he had lost 10% battery range on his I think 2 year old Leaf. I expect a couple or 3 thousand miles on my S battery. No noticeable change in the almodt 2 years now.

I will complain about things, not a sheep.
Ask me anything. Wish I didn't have to keep hands on wheel due to a couple fools early on.
tek 575 curve tracer top shape, 535 top shape, 465. 545 hickok clone, Telsa Model S,  Ohio Scientific c24P single board computer, many c-64 from my club days, Giant electric bicycle, Rigol stuff, Heathkit AR-15 receivers 2, Heathkit et 3400a trainer and interface,
 

Online sokoloff

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #108 on: December 28, 2018, 01:38:44 am »
The battery thermal management is what gives long life. The Nissan Leaf had poor thermal management and southern hot climate owners were getting battery problems.

On the "Now You Know" podcast the son said he had lost 10% battery range on his I think 2 year old Leaf. I expect a couple or 3 thousand miles on my S battery. No noticeable change in the almodt 2 years now.
LEAF owner here. The lack of active thermal management on the LEAF is a poor decision I think. I've lost about 7% over 4 years, which isn't too bad. (Daily driven 5 days a week, but only about 16K total miles.)

I expect a couple or 3 thousand miles on my S battery. No noticeable change in the almodt 2 years now.
I think you missed a factor of 1000 there. If you only got 3 thousand miles on the battery, I bet you'd be super-pissed...  ;)  ;D
 

Offline boffin

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #109 on: December 28, 2018, 03:26:31 am »
I expect a couple or 3 thousand miles on my S battery. No noticeable change in the almodt 2 years now.
I think you missed a factor of 1000 there. If you only got 3 thousand miles on the battery, I bet you'd be super-pissed...  ;)  ;D

Actually the OP missed by a factor of 100, and you missed by a factor of 10.  I'm pretty sure he meant 300,000
 
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Online sokoloff

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #110 on: December 28, 2018, 03:33:54 am »
 :palm:

Yup. Good catch!
 

Offline boffin

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #111 on: December 28, 2018, 03:57:33 am »
My wife and I private lease a Kia Niro PHEV in Umeå Sweden. It does not have battery heating as far as I know, but the fully EV one (just released) does.

Thanks for the insights, it's an interesting read, and addresses some interesting points.
 

Offline jh15

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #112 on: December 31, 2018, 04:05:10 pm »
Yeah, I missed puttin in a "k" there. expecting a couple hundred k miles.

If wife doesn't run it dry all the time. Only once she didn't supercharge on a long trip for 10 minutes because "I always thought gas guages had a reserve below the empty reading". Made it home on electron fumes.
tek 575 curve tracer top shape, 535 top shape, 465. 545 hickok clone, Telsa Model S,  Ohio Scientific c24P single board computer, many c-64 from my club days, Giant electric bicycle, Rigol stuff, Heathkit AR-15 receivers 2, Heathkit et 3400a trainer and interface,
 

Offline boffin

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #113 on: May 24, 2019, 02:14:58 pm »
It's been about a year since I got my BEV; so I thought I'd pass along some numbers

distance travelled:  11,700km
Power used:
 home (openEVSE metered): 1,095
 work+other (Chargepoint): 650
 others (guess): 150
 TOTAL: 1895kWh

Consumption (and this would include battery charging losses): 16.2kWh/100km
or in the local rates, about C$1.62/100km

Considering the gasoline version of the same car uses 7l/100km, and gasoline is about $1.68/l here, that means I'm doing slightly better than 7:1 in costs vs the gasoline version; and that's not including the fact that I don't pay for about 40% of all my charging (work + public chargers).





 

Offline fourtytwo42

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #114 on: May 24, 2019, 04:38:54 pm »
BUT you show no calculations that account for the hugely different capital costs! and BTW whats your battery life compared to an IC engine  :-\
 

Online Jeroen3

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #115 on: May 24, 2019, 05:02:06 pm »
What's yearly mainenance like?
 

Offline wilfred

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #116 on: May 24, 2019, 06:42:14 pm »
They come in waves as the leases run out, those are typically several years long and then there will be a pile of them for sale. Another wave should be coming up within the next couple of years. They may not be nearly as common in some areas as others but it's not that big of a deal to buy cars from other regions, there are even services out there to locate and transport them. I see new ones all over the place out here, EVs have proven very popular with the tech industry crowd.
Why would leases run out in waves? Surely a steady stream of leases expire month by month.

Financial year end. Maybe tax reasons. just a couple of guesses.
 

Offline wilfred

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #117 on: May 24, 2019, 07:17:28 pm »
you can drive around Australia in an EV for $150 in electricity.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/sep/12/how-much-does-it-cost-to-power-an-electric-car-around-australia-150?CMP=soc_567

Fast chargers would be few and far between on the Nullabor. https://goo.gl/maps/TMcMVrVqbLwLckZK7

Note the lack of power poles. Those crosses by the road are what remains of those who died waiting for their cars to charge.
 

Offline boffin

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #118 on: May 25, 2019, 01:41:48 am »
BUT you show no calculations that account for the hugely different capital costs! and BTW whats your battery life compared to an IC engine  :-\
Let's compare VW vs VW

BEV eGolf is C$36,700 -- less $10k in incentives (5k when I bought);
similarly equipped ICE Golf is about C$26,000
Which "Hugely different capital cost" were you talking about ?  The $700 ?

Almost no maintenance costs (no oil changes).  I did have a flat tire once, but that's hardly a cost associated only with an EV

I don't expect battery life to be significantly different than engine/transmission life of an ICE car.  As with the Prius, by the time it does start being an issue, there will be a lot of 3rd party options for refresh.
 

Offline bicycleguy

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #119 on: May 25, 2019, 01:50:48 am »
@boffin
Thanks for your first hand information.  Unfortunately, many contributors to this thread haven't read the title.
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #120 on: May 25, 2019, 02:03:45 am »
BUT you show no calculations that account for the hugely different capital costs! and BTW whats your battery life compared to an IC engine  :-\
Let's compare VW vs VW

BEV eGolf is C$36,700 -- less $10k in incentives (5k when I bought);
similarly equipped ICE Golf is about C$26,000
Which "Hugely different capital cost" were you talking about ?  The $700 ?

Almost no maintenance costs (no oil changes).  I did have a flat tire once, but that's hardly a cost associated only with an EV

I don't expect battery life to be significantly different than engine/transmission life of an ICE car.  As with the Prius, by the time it does start being an issue, there will be a lot of 3rd party options for refresh.
Still comparing apples with oranges. Those $5k you got and the free charging is paid by other people. In the end there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. And what happens in 10 years from now when EVs turned out to be a failed experiment and the public charging infrastructure gets decomissioned (because nobody wants to pay more for public charging compared to buying gas)? You'd be stuck with a dud you can only charge at home. At that time you realise you got a lot of freebies for taking a risk with your hard earned money.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Bud

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #121 on: May 25, 2019, 02:16:17 am »
BEV eGolf is C$36,700 -- less $10k in incentives (5k when I bought);
similarly equipped ICE Golf is about C$26,000
Which "Hugely different capital cost" were you talking about ?  The $700 ?

Is my guess correct that you have to report the incentive amount to the tax man who will then yank a good $1000 out of it?
 

Online sokoloff

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #122 on: May 25, 2019, 04:18:10 am »
Still comparing apples with oranges. Those $5k you got and the free charging is paid by other people. In the end there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. And what happens in 10 years from now when EVs turned out to be a failed experiment and the public charging infrastructure gets decomissioned (because nobody wants to pay more for public charging compared to buying gas)? You'd be stuck with a dud you can only charge at home. At that time you realise you got a lot of freebies for taking a risk with your hard earned money.
If that happens, I'll have driven a $21K (after incentives) LEAF for 14 years total and will have likely saved $5000 in energy costs and about the same in service costs plus 21 trips to the dealer over a comparable $21K ICE car. If it turns into a pumpkin 10 years from now, I'm still OK.
 

Offline boffin

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #123 on: May 25, 2019, 04:24:07 am »
Quote
Still comparing apples with oranges. Those $5k you got and the free charging is paid by other people. In the end there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. And what happens in 10 years from now when EVs turned out to be a failed experiment and the public charging infrastructure gets decomissioned (because nobody wants to pay more for public charging compared to buying gas)? You'd be stuck with a dud you can only charge at home. At that time you realise you got a lot of freebies for taking a risk with your hard earned money.

1) My costing assumed I did all my charging at home (apparently you didn't bother reading my message)
2) Public (fee) charging infrastructure is rapidly expanding.  I'm more than happy to pay for it at reasonable rates; and it's more and more common.  Even the large gasoline companies are getting into the business
3) the 5k is sort of paid by other people. However, the province and federal government are costing it in that an electric car has a lower impact on the city (noise, pollution etc) to create a better environment for everyone.  It's not really dissimilar to the city paying to build a public park.  Also the environmental impact of refineries and oil transport is much higher than the impact of electric transmission lines; especially considering that most home EV charging is done at off-peak times.  The grants will disappear, but by then the battery costs will have dropped



 
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Offline boffin

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #124 on: May 25, 2019, 04:25:22 am »
BEV eGolf is C$36,700 -- less $10k in incentives (5k when I bought);
similarly equipped ICE Golf is about C$26,000
Which "Hugely different capital cost" were you talking about ?  The $700 ?

Is my guess correct that you have to report the incentive amount to the tax man who will then yank a good $1000 out of it?

Nope.  Right off the cost of the vehicle; no tax implication.


 


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