Author Topic: Electric cars like Teslas now cheaper to own than gas cars in Europe  (Read 7701 times)

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Offline DougSpindler

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Re: Electric cars like Teslas now cheaper to own than gas cars in Europe
« Reply #275 on: August 01, 2020, 06:54:17 pm »


kaz911 not sure what you mean be "the web site".  I used many including her own web site.  I also looked a Wikipedia and the website of the orgs shes is connected with.

Are you familiar with the "Merchant's of Doubt? industry?  These are very credible scientists who have "sold out".  The are covertly being compensated, typically by large corporations, to have a specific agenda.  There goal is to cause politicians and the public to think there is enough scientific doubt and confusion about the science of a specific environmental issue.  In the US there's even a trade show to hire these scientists.

Once you learn these scientists have been bought by industry, would you trust their scientific opinion anymore?


As I have tried to convey multiple times - I trust neither left or right. And I do know Merchants of Doubt. But even a blind chicken can find a corn.

But I do trust my own findings and my own research.

And I do think humans cause CO2 - I do just not think it is primarily fossil fuels fault - I think it is our population and the food production for our population - so all the macro numbers that accumulate you staying alive and eating your food and going to work.

I do agree the world has been heating - but not out of bounds from what has been before (so far)

See attachment for relationship between CO2 and population. There is NO curve fitting apart from devisor between population and CO2. Population estimates where "unknown" has been interpolated between previous and next number.  We did not have very good population stats before 1910-20's.

Appears you, like I follow evaluate the research and use critical thinking skills and evidence to get to the truth.

The graph you posted is doesn't provide enough fine detail to see the correlation between the mans burning of carbon fuels and CO2/other gasses levels.

Have you looked at the research the Koch brothers paid to have done?  They hired a well respected scientist, who at the time was a climate change skeptic?   
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: Electric cars like Teslas now cheaper to own than gas cars in Europe
« Reply #276 on: August 01, 2020, 06:58:58 pm »
Nice for now, but it won't be long before supply and demand drives up the price of electricity.
I like it better when the governments built the power plants and considered it a public benefit.

We've seen what happens when that occurs...  The electric clocks all run slow.  Clocks in Europe have lost 6 minutes since January.

Do you know why?

Three-phase generators deliver power at 50 Hz in Europe and 60Hz in North America. Most electric clocks derive their accuracy from that.  For a long time the rotations of the dynamos were counted, and then cycles were added or subtracted to maintain a constant cycle count.  That's why old electric clocks kept perfect time.

Nowadays who knows? Maybe they just can't be bothered.

You do know all of those clocks which have kept accurate time for decades all of a sudden lost 6 minutes so far this year.    correction this was a few years ago.  We found out why this year.

We do know.  It's because the one government stepped in and took control of power prices making them free. 
But do you know the rest of the story?   Why all of a sudden did the clocks start losing about a minute a month?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 07:03:29 pm by DougSpindler »
 

Offline kaz911

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Re: Electric cars like Teslas now cheaper to own than gas cars in Europe
« Reply #277 on: August 01, 2020, 07:04:26 pm »

Appears you, like I follow evaluate the research and use critical thinking skills and evidence to get to the truth.

The graph you posted is doesn't provide enough fine detail to see the correlation between the mans burning of carbon fuels and CO2/other gasses levels.

Have you looked at the research the Koch brothers paid to have done?  They hired a well respected scientist, who at the time was a climate change skeptic?   

No - I don't care about Koch brothers or anything Soros touches. They should all be avoided like the devil. :)

Anyway - the data is not really available in finer grain. CO2 before official coordinated numbers are from NASAs data and might not be perfect. It is mostly ice core based until 1958 after which it is from Mauna Loa and South Pole adjusted by NASA. Population data is from worldometers - but every time I update the current years they update numbers going back all the way to 1850... They keep finding out more people was alive back then somehow.

But what you can see in the data is the CO2 drop during WW II - and we did not skimp on fossil fuel consumption during WW II...
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: Electric cars like Teslas now cheaper to own than gas cars in Europe
« Reply #278 on: August 01, 2020, 07:11:36 pm »

Appears you, like I follow evaluate the research and use critical thinking skills and evidence to get to the truth.

The graph you posted is doesn't provide enough fine detail to see the correlation between the mans burning of carbon fuels and CO2/other gasses levels.

Have you looked at the research the Koch brothers paid to have done?  They hired a well respected scientist, who at the time was a climate change skeptic?   

No - I don't care about Koch brothers or anything Soros touches. They should all be avoided like the devil. :)

Anyway - the data is not really available in finer grain. CO2 before official coordinated numbers are from NASAs data and might not be perfect. It is mostly ice core based until 1958 after which it is from Mauna Loa and South Pole adjusted by NASA. Population data is from worldometers - but every time I update the current years they update numbers going back all the way to 1850... They keep finding out more people was alive back then somehow.

But what you can see in the data is the CO2 drop during WW II - and we did not skimp on fossil fuel consumption during WW II...

Why are you discounting the high quality research the Koch brothers funded?  They hired an excellent scientist from UC Berkeley/Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory.  His work has been peer reviewed by thousands of scientists.   


 

Offline Connecteur

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Re: Electric cars like Teslas now cheaper to own than gas cars in Europe
« Reply #279 on: August 01, 2020, 07:15:39 pm »

Have you looked at the research the Koch brothers paid to have done?  They hired a well respected scientist, who at the time was a climate change skeptic?   
There's nothing about an education that instills integrity.
 
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Offline tom66

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Re: Electric cars like Teslas now cheaper to own than gas cars in Europe
« Reply #280 on: August 01, 2020, 07:29:17 pm »
And I do think humans cause CO2 - I do just not think it is primarily fossil fuels fault - I think it is our population and the food production for our population - so all the macro numbers that accumulate you staying alive and eating your food and going to work.

Well, of *course* human population and CO2 are strongly correlated.

More humans = bigger cities, more heating/aircon, more transport, more power, more food.

The *single biggest* change any individual can have is to have one less child.  You can drive a Tesla, be a vegan and go off grid on solar only, but that child is worth some 60 tonnes of CO2 emissions per year, in clothes, future energy/transport, food, etc. 

And as for food production then you are right.  Land use changes (often from forests) effectively create more CO2 (by removing the things that absorb it from the cycle) because often times we are replacing dense forest with cleared areas, and those have considerably lower CO2 absorption factors.  Often times these clearings are then used to either grow crops to feed cattle, or to graze cattle...

Then you have cow farts as methane has a GWP of approx 30x of CO2, hence the term CO2e, for equivalent of CO2.  So if a cow emits 100g of methane, that is equivalent to 3kg of CO2 in a 100 year timespan.  (It gets more complex because, over time, some greenhouse gases breakdown, usually into lower GWP compounds, and others don't, and the time to breakdown varies from compound to compound.  But a 100-year GWP is a reasonable way to look at it;  methane's real half-life is closer to a decade, so while it is in the atmosphere, its effective GWP is far higher.)   And you are correct in a sense,  because this has a significant effect, estimated to be around 10-20ppm equivalent CO2 emissions.  That's roughly 10 years of human contributed CO2.   A positive feedback effect exists here.  Huge amounts of methane are trapped in permafrost, in places like Siberia.  As these areas heat up, the permafrost may melt, releasing the methane, causing increased heating.  These positive effects are critical: if we unlock the wrong ones we could very well make the changes irreversible in any human time span.

Then you have leaks in refrigeration systems and this is a big reason to move things away from R134a or R32 as refrigerants as leaks from these systems are really significant and in many cases the atmospheric half-life of these elements is well beyond 100 years.  An AC unit with a 1kg charge of R32 is equivalent to driving a 120g/kmCO2e city car, approximately 5,600 km.  Or half a year's car usage for one damaged or improperly serviced AC unit.  My car uses R134a; if it were to be involved in an accident, the 560g of AC refrigerant that may be released would be equivalent to 800 kg CO2!  Using R-1234yf, is far better (GWP ~= 1), and later generations of the same model moved to this refrigerant.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 07:33:38 pm by tom66 »
 

Offline kaz911

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Re: Electric cars like Teslas now cheaper to own than gas cars in Europe
« Reply #281 on: August 01, 2020, 07:37:01 pm »

Appears you, like I follow evaluate the research and use critical thinking skills and evidence to get to the truth.

The graph you posted is doesn't provide enough fine detail to see the correlation between the mans burning of carbon fuels and CO2/other gasses levels.

Have you looked at the research the Koch brothers paid to have done?  They hired a well respected scientist, who at the time was a climate change skeptic?   

No - I don't care about Koch brothers or anything Soros touches. They should all be avoided like the devil. :)

Anyway - the data is not really available in finer grain. CO2 before official coordinated numbers are from NASAs data and might not be perfect. It is mostly ice core based until 1958 after which it is from Mauna Loa and South Pole adjusted by NASA. Population data is from worldometers - but every time I update the current years they update numbers going back all the way to 1850... They keep finding out more people was alive back then somehow.

But what you can see in the data is the CO2 drop during WW II - and we did not skimp on fossil fuel consumption during WW II...

Why are you discounting the high quality research the Koch brothers funded?  They hired an excellent scientist from UC Berkeley/Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory.  His work has been peer reviewed by thousands of scientists.   



you just lit another fuse by mentioning peer reviewed.... Do you actually know what the process of peer review entails? Every-body falls over themselves about "peer reviewed" but it is not a validation of the study.

It is usually only a validation of the process. It carries very little meaning. It is much like doing review of a business proposal for your sales guy before it it sent out. It does not mean another scientist has validated the results. It only means they have inspected the method leading to the result and maybe checked source references. It used to mean more but today so many papers are published that it has become quite hard to actually find reviewers who do much more thank skim the results.

I'll take some time out and listen to him later on. But usually both Koch and Soros are "persona non grata"  in my house.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Electric cars like Teslas now cheaper to own than gas cars in Europe
« Reply #282 on: August 01, 2020, 07:50:50 pm »
to respond to the actual subject of cost of running yes they are cheaper, if the electric car uses 250W/m and electric is 8p/kWh then you do the math against a car that uses 0.1l of petrol per wile at 135p/l, I calculated that at 7-10'000m/y you break even

Not to nit pick but is the assumptions on your cost benefit not slightly skewed ?

1. you assume Eco 7 (cheaper night time electricity)  in the UK based on your price - real cost would be between 8p/kWh and 15p/kWh dependent on when you charge and IF Eco 7 makes sense for your household. Since we occupy our house the whole day (working from home 2 adults etc) - we would even with an electric car based on our milage - not benefit from Eco 7. So we would pay 13.25p / kWh (current rate)

2.  You assume 100% socket to charger and battery efficiency - so 1 kWh from grid = 1 kWh in car? I think the efficiencies between 80 and 90% (https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/charging-efficiency.122072/) - so I would assume 85% avg.

So your 7-10.000 would for me translate roughly into 13.000 to 18.600'ish miles per year for break even. And then probably add the parasitic consumption of 3000 miles for model S - so 16.0000 to 21.600 miles per year.







It was not meant to be thorough no. I am on a wholesale linked price, my price throughout today has been sub 8p/kWh although I have to pay between 20 and 35p between 16:00 and 19:00
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Electric cars like Teslas now cheaper to own than gas cars in Europe
« Reply #283 on: August 01, 2020, 08:00:18 pm »
The *single biggest* change any individual can have is to have one less child.

Bull ... I'm not a cornucopian who believes technology will drag us out of this, but I hope it will. The alternatives are horrific. We need more high attainment individuals, not less.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Electric cars like Teslas now cheaper to own than gas cars in Europe
« Reply #284 on: August 01, 2020, 08:02:08 pm »
The *single biggest* change any individual can have is to have one less child.

Bull ... I'm not a cornucopian who believes technology will drag us out of this, but I hope it will. The alternatives are horrific. We need more high attainment individuals, not less.

Don't be silly, we all consume, the more of us on the planet at once the worse it is.
 
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Offline kaz911

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Offline Marco

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Re: Electric cars like Teslas now cheaper to own than gas cars in Europe
« Reply #286 on: August 01, 2020, 08:14:47 pm »
Don't be silly, we all consume, the more of us on the planet at once the worse it is.

The more people not improving life on the planet the worse it will become ... the people who should take the advice definitely won't, so stop confusing the people who shouldn't. Their kids are the ones who have to pull this planet out of the fire. People and cultures are not fungible.

Dysgenic anti-natalism is silly, it just offers up the planet to barbarism. I don't want some steady state Kacyzinski'esque humanity living a low tech life, practising infanticide as population control and all those other lovely quaint traditions of the noble savage existence, waiting for the next natural extinction event.

Forward or bust.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Electric cars like Teslas now cheaper to own than gas cars in Europe
« Reply #287 on: August 01, 2020, 08:18:17 pm »
birthrates naturally decline in developed countries, who is and who is not to have kids is a whole other argument. My sister has just had a baby, I don't think they want another one, I do'n want kids so out of 3 have come 1 as an example, now whether or not my niece is "worthy" I cannot tell you.
 

Offline kaz911

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Re: Electric cars like Teslas now cheaper to own than gas cars in Europe
« Reply #288 on: August 01, 2020, 08:30:26 pm »

Why are you discounting the high quality research the Koch brothers funded?  They hired an excellent scientist from UC Berkeley/Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory.  His work has been peer reviewed by thousands of scientists.   




I listened to his presentation and he makes sense.

In that case I have hereby proven that the human population is the actual cause of the CO2 in the atmosphere - as the curves actually fit almost perfectly.

If I discount the people sadly losing their lives during WW-II the curve will fit even better (there wore not a lot of population stats during WW-II so population data in that period is interpolated which skews the data due to baby boom post WW-II)
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Electric cars like Teslas now cheaper to own than gas cars in Europe
« Reply #289 on: August 01, 2020, 09:08:15 pm »
The topic was not about global warming. However, CO2 is a greenhouse gas (causes warming) and we produce it! I don't see the controversy. There may be other elements at play but we emit a gas that holds heat...
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Electric cars like Teslas now cheaper to own than gas cars in Europe
« Reply #290 on: August 01, 2020, 09:36:41 pm »

Appears you, like I follow evaluate the research and use critical thinking skills and evidence to get to the truth.

The graph you posted is doesn't provide enough fine detail to see the correlation between the mans burning of carbon fuels and CO2/other gasses levels.

Have you looked at the research the Koch brothers paid to have done?  They hired a well respected scientist, who at the time was a climate change skeptic?   

No - I don't care about Koch brothers or anything Soros touches. They should all be avoided like the devil. :)

Anyway - the data is not really available in finer grain. CO2 before official coordinated numbers are from NASAs data and might not be perfect. It is mostly ice core based until 1958 after which it is from Mauna Loa and South Pole adjusted by NASA. Population data is from worldometers - but every time I update the current years they update numbers going back all the way to 1850... They keep finding out more people was alive back then somehow.

But what you can see in the data is the CO2 drop during WW II - and we did not skimp on fossil fuel consumption during WW II...
Yup. If you look at ice drilling data you see there is an increase in CO2 before the industrial revolution which is in line with the cyclic high CO2 levels the earth has experienced. I'm very sure we are experiencing a double effect: 1) human activity causing more CO2 and 2) a natural phenomenon causing more CO2. Together it is a perfect storm.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Electric cars like Teslas now cheaper to own than gas cars in Europe
« Reply #291 on: August 01, 2020, 09:42:51 pm »
The percentage of people who would genuinely get us out of this situation would be, 0.01% of the population at a high estimate.  Even the smartest people will become lawyers, doctors,  other research scientists,  business people... so saying "have one less child" is not a terrible concept if you were truly worried about there being a shortage of smart people to solve this problem. In any case it is already well documented that as economies get richer the birth rate falls as women (and, to a lesser extent men) prioritise careers over parenthood.  That isn't a bad thing.

We more than have the resources to do this.  How many engineers spend their time engineering the next iPhone or the next missile system.  If we truly wanted to put resources into resolving the climate crisis we could do this,  it just requires a rethinking of the economic mandate of growth at all cost.   A lot of it is down to simply reducing consumption full stop.  iPhones and cars aren't "bad" but the endless and constant consumption of products for needless self-gratification is.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: Electric cars like Teslas now cheaper to own than gas cars in Europe
« Reply #292 on: August 01, 2020, 09:55:24 pm »

Appears you, like I follow evaluate the research and use critical thinking skills and evidence to get to the truth.

The graph you posted is doesn't provide enough fine detail to see the correlation between the mans burning of carbon fuels and CO2/other gasses levels.

Have you looked at the research the Koch brothers paid to have done?  They hired a well respected scientist, who at the time was a climate change skeptic?   

No - I don't care about Koch brothers or anything Soros touches. They should all be avoided like the devil. :)

Anyway - the data is not really available in finer grain. CO2 before official coordinated numbers are from NASAs data and might not be perfect. It is mostly ice core based until 1958 after which it is from Mauna Loa and South Pole adjusted by NASA. Population data is from worldometers - but every time I update the current years they update numbers going back all the way to 1850... They keep finding out more people was alive back then somehow.

But what you can see in the data is the CO2 drop during WW II - and we did not skimp on fossil fuel consumption during WW II...

Why are you discounting the high quality research the Koch brothers funded?  They hired an excellent scientist from UC Berkeley/Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory.  His work has been peer reviewed by thousands of scientists.   



you just lit another fuse by mentioning peer reviewed.... Do you actually know what the process of peer review entails? Every-body falls over themselves about "peer reviewed" but it is not a validation of the study.

It is usually only a validation of the process. It carries very little meaning. It is much like doing review of a business proposal for your sales guy before it it sent out. It does not mean another scientist has validated the results. It only means they have inspected the method leading to the result and maybe checked source references. It used to mean more but today so many papers are published that it has become quite hard to actually find reviewers who do much more thank skim the results.

I'll take some time out and listen to him later on. But usually both Koch and Soros are "persona non grata"  in my house.

If we don't use peer review what method would you propose?
In the past we have had the pope tell us how things are.  That was until Martin Luther peer revived what the pope was saying what was in the Bible was not true.
The method used by Dr. Goebbels was very effective Peer review anything he stated and you landed in a concentration camp.
Should we peer review what Elon Musk's hyper-loop?  Or question his plans for a EV semi-truck?
Or how about Elizabeth Holmes and here Theronos machine?

Aren't you glad we peer reviewed everything these people told us?
If peer reviews isn't any good how would you do it?
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: Electric cars like Teslas now cheaper to own than gas cars in Europe
« Reply #293 on: August 01, 2020, 09:57:12 pm »

Yup. If you look at ice drilling data you see there is an increase in CO2 before the industrial revolution which is in line with the cyclic high CO2 levels the earth has experienced. I'm very sure we are experiencing a double effect: 1) human activity causing more CO2 and 2) a natural phenomenon causing more CO2. Together it is a perfect storm.

But this is NOT what was found.
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: Electric cars like Teslas now cheaper to own than gas cars in Europe
« Reply #294 on: August 01, 2020, 10:03:31 pm »
Forbes article about Spiegel article about Germany's renewables...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelshellenberger/2019/05/06/the-reason-renewables-cant-power-modern-civilization-is-because-they-were-never-meant-to/#1f2d8d2bea2b

Germany has been burning more coal lately to produce electricity.  And while they aren't in favor of nuclear energy, they don't mind if they get it from France.  Not that's the way to be environmentally friendly.
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: Electric cars like Teslas now cheaper to own than gas cars in Europe
« Reply #295 on: August 02, 2020, 03:00:56 am »
I did read everything you wrote.  Do you agree there is a lot of false, incorrect and misleading inflammation that's being spread about man caused climate change?
And that there is an entire industry out there of credible scientists who are being paid to spread doubt and confusion about man caused climate change?
You say I'm naive to think climate change is entirely caused by humans.  Would you agree it's more like 95 - 98% is caused by humans? 

Why do you say there is no correlation in the data linking climate change to man's activities over the past 500 years?  The is evidence which shows a clear correlation.

Yes, I do agree that there is a lot of false information out there. But not just due to people deliberately being misleading, but because mistakes have been made in the science and we're still finding out answers to unanswered questions (and reviewing what we thought we already knew). As I've already stated, the science is relatively new.

I don't agree that humans are 95-98% to blame. I also don't disagree with that figure because we simply don't know yet.

At no point did I say there was no correlation between humans and the last 500 years. Where did you pull that from? I'm left to assume that you either didn't read what I wrote or you misunderstood it.

Anyway let's get back on topic, being the cost of EVs versus internal combustion. Arguments about climate change are unwinnable and spiral out of control. Most people aren't willing to accept things that contradict their own thoughts and beliefs and everyone just ends up walking away with the same stance they started with.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 03:03:10 am by Halcyon »
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: Electric cars like Teslas now cheaper to own than gas cars in Europe
« Reply #296 on: August 02, 2020, 05:11:05 am »
I did read everything you wrote.  Do you agree there is a lot of false, incorrect and misleading inflammation that's being spread about man caused climate change?
And that there is an entire industry out there of credible scientists who are being paid to spread doubt and confusion about man caused climate change?
You say I'm naive to think climate change is entirely caused by humans.  Would you agree it's more like 95 - 98% is caused by humans? 

Why do you say there is no correlation in the data linking climate change to man's activities over the past 500 years?  The is evidence which shows a clear correlation.

Yes, I do agree that there is a lot of false information out there. But not just due to people deliberately being misleading, but because mistakes have been made in the science and we're still finding out answers to unanswered questions (and reviewing what we thought we already knew). As I've already stated, the science is relatively new.

I don't agree that humans are 95-98% to blame. I also don't disagree with that figure because we simply don't know yet.

At no point did I say there was no correlation between humans and the last 500 years. Where did you pull that from? I'm left to assume that you either didn't read what I wrote or you misunderstood it.

Anyway let's get back on topic, being the cost of EVs versus internal combustion. Arguments about climate change are unwinnable and spiral out of control. Most people aren't willing to accept things that contradict their own thoughts and beliefs and everyone just ends up walking away with the same stance they started with.

We can agree on a lot of the issues and disagree on a few.   I’m in that minority that went from not thinking there was not enough creditable evidence to show climate change was occurring.  But once I looked at the “credible” evidence it was overwhelming.  And with the evidence we have now, it all points to man as the cause of climate change.

Then I found out about this industry where very prominent scientist are being bought to see confusion and doubt about man caused climate change.  These people are discussing.  Fred Singer for decades was one of these scientists.  After 20+ years of causing doubt and confusion about man caused climate change he finally admitted he knew all along the evidence definitely indicated our climate was changing and man was the cause.  He just passed away, so it’s going to be interesting to see who, if anyone, will replace him.

Back to the topic of the post.
Here’s how the youth of America today view EVs.  My daughter’s good friend just graduated from college.  She landed a job and immediately leased a Tesla.  The women is 23 years old and she entered into a 7 year lease so she can drive a Tesla EV.  Here yearly salary is $55,00 per year.  Something like 65% of her monthly paycheck is going forwards the car.  And at the end of 7 years she still doesn’t own the car.   And we thought Jobs mesmerized the “kids” with the iPhoane.  Elon has done a far better job in getting “kids” to buy Tesla’s than Jobs could ever do.

 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: Electric cars like Teslas now cheaper to own than gas cars in Europe
« Reply #297 on: August 02, 2020, 05:51:30 am »
Here’s how the youth of America today view EVs.  My daughter’s good friend just graduated from college.  She landed a job and immediately leased a Tesla.  The women is 23 years old and she entered into a 7 year lease so she can drive a Tesla EV.  Here yearly salary is $55,00 per year.  Something like 65% of her monthly paycheck is going forwards the car.  And at the end of 7 years she still doesn’t own the car.   And we thought Jobs mesmerized the “kids” with the iPhoane.  Elon has done a far better job in getting “kids” to buy Tesla’s than Jobs could ever do.

Well, we are all young and dumb at one point.

EVs are not there yet as a viable alternative for most people. Of course this is highly dependent on where you live, but for a city like Sydney, an EV won't even get many people to and from work on a charge. Then there is the issue of actually charging the thing. "Greater Sydney" is huge and spans about 70 kilometers west from the coast. Then you have a lot of people (like myself) who commute from outside of Sydney to and from work each day. EVs just aren't suitable for drivers like myself.

The other issue I foresee is that the value of them will plummet the moment they are driven from the showroom. The batteries themselves have a very finite and limited lifetime and replacement costs need to be factored in, if you 're purchasing a second-hand EV. Just last year, a Nissan Leaf owner in Australia was quoted over $33,000 to have the battery in his vehicle replaced. The cost for replacement batteries for the Model 3 and Model S Tesla's seem to be around that USD$16,000 to $20,000 mark. It's a lot of money. With cars that have internal combustion engines, the cost of servicing and replacement parts are spread across the life of the vehicle, rather than a large lump sum payment as things begin to wear out or fail.

Just like with battery power for homes, the investment outweighs any costs savings. I looked into a combined solar/battery system for my home a few years ago and calculated based on my location and usage, it would cost me more than twice as much over the 10 year life of the system, than to just buy energy off the grid.
 

Offline kaz911

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Re: Electric cars like Teslas now cheaper to own than gas cars in Europe
« Reply #298 on: August 02, 2020, 06:51:39 am »
The percentage of people who would genuinely get us out of this situation would be, 0.01% of the population at a high estimate.  Even the smartest people will become lawyers, doctors,  other research scientists,  business people... so saying "have one less child" is not a terrible concept if you were truly worried about there being a shortage of smart people to solve this problem. In any case it is already well documented that as economies get richer the birth rate falls as women (and, to a lesser extent men) prioritise careers over parenthood.  That isn't a bad thing.

We more than have the resources to do this.  How many engineers spend their time engineering the next iPhone or the next missile system.  If we truly wanted to put resources into resolving the climate crisis we could do this,  it just requires a rethinking of the economic mandate of growth at all cost.   A lot of it is down to simply reducing consumption full stop.  iPhones and cars aren't "bad" but the endless and constant consumption of products for needless self-gratification is.

The problem with the above - less children - is it creates a lot of other issues on the macro scale.

1. Less children mean less people to pay taxes - which leads to less service for everyone and less pension for pensioners and less quality health service.

that is currently one of the biggest issue in all over EU - declining government revenue to pay forward promises like pensions. That is also why Boris Johnsons invitation to grant most people from HK refuge in the UK - is completely genius. Hard working, well educated people that do not complain as much as some other groups.  (I'm not a BoJo fan but credit where credit is due)

2. Less children leads to inflation in salaries for companies - giving companies higher cost base for less quality workforce (less children = more spolied  children) - so a complete downwards spiral.

3. For countries with a continuously growing population - (like Bangladesh) - the salaries are kept low and very competitive if the population wants to work. (Saudi is an exception as there are not many manual labour jobs available due to "asian" worker competition - but I think avg. no of children per family is about 8 )

So it is a balancing act....

 

Offline kaz911

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Re: Electric cars like Teslas now cheaper to own than gas cars in Europe
« Reply #299 on: August 02, 2020, 07:00:29 am »

The other issue I foresee is that the value of them will plummet the moment they are driven from the showroom. The batteries themselves have a very finite and limited lifetime and replacement costs need to be factored in, if you 're purchasing a second-hand EV. Just last year, a Nissan Leaf owner in Australia was quoted over $33,000 to have the battery in his vehicle replaced. The cost for replacement batteries for the Model 3 and Model S Tesla's seem to be around that USD$16,000 to $20,000 mark. It's a lot of money. With cars that have internal combustion engines, the cost of servicing and replacement parts are spread across the life of the vehicle, rather than a large lump sum payment as things begin to wear out or fail.

Most modern cars with automatic gear boxes have some potentially very expensive repair items. Like Fiat 500 automatic gearboxes (or all automatic gearboxes) but the Fiat 500's is a very problematic one and costs (in Scandinavia) roughly $4-6000 to get replaced (official Fiat price)

The Radio in my Ford Galaxy $3500,- for a crappy German Becker "In Car Entertainment system" - but I wont even give the price on a Porsche entertainment system replacement.....

Quote
Just like with battery power for homes, the investment outweighs any costs savings. I looked into a combined solar/battery system for my home a few years ago and calculated based on my location and usage, it would cost me more than twice as much over the 10 year life of the system, than to just buy energy off the grid.

Yes - most people forget to calculate the whole cost incl. battery ageing and replacement.

But remember electricity prices keep climbing up by avg. 5% per year - so for me it is not about just the price. It is about the potential for as much independence as possible - and that is priceless.
 


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