EV battery lease or purchase?

[Simon]

i am starting to think about the leasing option for now. Even at £400/m, currently I will spend £270 on fuel, allow £50 for repairs, £12 tax, £20 for insurance, and £120 saving for the next car that is £472/m I am actually spending anyway.

ONTO do a car for £339/m for 12'000miles/year, I'd need 20'000 miles but have to register to find out what the price is for more miles.

[janoc]

BMW i3 is an extremely tiny car though. If you need to bring some stuff or people  with you then it likely won't suffice. Small cars like that also don't handle very well but perhaps that is less of a problem with a heavy battery pack hanging under the car.

About the same as the Zoe or Leaf (Zoe is about the same size as Renault Twingo and only slightly bigger than Smart). So I guess that's not a problem for him, you usually don't haul much stuff when commuting to work.

I would second the comment by tszaboo on the Leaf's battery pack, though.

Pretty much all used EVs on the market are Leafs that were used as company runabouts, so the car likely has a lot of mileage on it. Leaf didn't have much range to begin with and they are notorious for rapid deterioration of their batteries. So the battery capacity values when new (30kWh) are completely meaningless - it is not uncommon that a 5-7 years old Leaf needs a new battery already because it has less than half of the capacity remaining. And that costs more than the value of the car (I saw some 7000 bucks quoted somewhere, there may be aftermarket packs available for less ), so the cars get rather sold to an unsuspecting sucker than repaired. Even Nissan itself specifies that the battery is "expected to last about 10 years and 100k miles".

So unless the car was really really cheap and you needed to drive only a short distance (70 miles every day is a lot - that car had 150 miles max. range under ideal conditions when new!) I would steer clear of it, IMO. There will be no chance to resell it due to the expensive battery replacement it will need soon and with its current deteriorated range you would be constantly on edge whether or not you will make it home in the evening.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Leaf didn't have much range to begin with and they are notorious for rapid deterioration of their batteries.

AIUI that's only the case for the early ones made in Japan, which had poorer battery chemistry

[Simon]

Well I am going to give the Zoe ZE50 a go on a monthly lease. See how I do, nothing to loose at the moment then think about what I might buy.

[nctnico]

BMW i3 is an extremely tiny car though. If you need to bring some stuff or people  with you then it likely won't suffice. Small cars like that also don't handle very well but perhaps that is less of a problem with a heavy battery pack hanging under the car.

About the same as the Zoe or Leaf (Zoe is about the same size as Renault Twingo and only slightly bigger than Smart). So I guess that's not a problem for him, you usually don't haul much stuff when commuting to work.

I'd recommend against a small car for such a long commute. It just isn't comfortable (again: crappy Owon versus A-brand gear). The size of a VW Golf is nice. I'd also opt for softer, quieter tires which also have better grip when it is cold & wet. Compared to running the aircon / heating it won't matter much anyway. A lot of Tesla's can be heard loud and clear due to the extremely noisy tires which is a shame because the ride could be so much quieter compared to ICE. Imagine sitting in that noise every work day for 2 hours. Being able to bring some stuff with you in a car is just convenient. I made the mistake of buying a sedan once but never again.

[Simon]

I have gone on holiday with 3 other friends travelling 200+ miles in my little fiesta.

[janoc]

Leaf didn't have much range to begin with and they are notorious for rapid deterioration of their batteries.

AIUI that's only the case for the early ones made in Japan, which had poorer battery chemistry

Which is most likely what he was considering, given that the car was used. There aren't that many more recent (2018 and newer) models on the used car market for that price yet.

[nctnico]

I have gone on holiday with 3 other friends travelling 200+ miles in my little fiesta.

Well, with a 70 mile commute you'll be doing 350 miles a week. Every week. In bad weather as well and you have to get there in time. And drive back safely after a long day of work. You will want a car that is not tiresome to drive.

[Simon]

what makes a car tiresome to drive? How does the size matter?

[james_s]

Size is irrelevant if you fit properly in the seat. Handling, ergonomics and visibility have a much greater impact. Test drive whatever you are considering and see if it works for you.

[Simon]

It's an ICE concept that does not carry over to EV I think. With an ICE car the larger the more features you get as it cost more like sound deadening and an engine with power. with an EV it's already quiet and it is pokier than an ICE of the same "power"

[james_s]

Some cars are definitely more fatiguing to drive than others, I just don't see it necessarily correlating with size. High noise level is part of it, vibration is part of it, how comfortable the seat is to sit in for a long period is significant, overall ergonomics such as the placement of the steering wheel and controls, armrests and such. And visibility plays a significant part in how much workload there is to drive it. In some cases larger cars have an advantage, but small cars typically have better visibility and it's easier to maintain spatial awareness. It's like a chair or a pair of shoes, what is comfortable to one person may not be for someone else.

[tszaboo]

what makes a car tiresome to drive? How does the size matter?

Suspension, so you dont feel every bump in your spine.
Also, constantly shifting gears in city traffic, that's not a factor for an EV.
Noise, internal and external. Crappy Pegueots interior probably makes more rattling noise than the engine.
Seats. Just sit in a Volvo S60 for an hour, and do the same in a Citroen C2. I cannot sit in a C2 if anyone wants to sit behind me. My head just touches the ceiling.
But it's not 100% about the size. A Mazda MX5 is more comfortable to drive than many cars.

The number 1 factor that makes cars tiresome to drive is the other people on the road anyway.

[nctnico]

what makes a car tiresome to drive? How does the size matter?

Wheels further apart give more stability which means less wobbly (especially with wind, trucks passing by, etc). Notice how drivers of small cars (like Citroen C1 size) drive noticably slower compared to VW Golf sized cars. A small car is like driving a go-kart. Fun at times but not as a tool you need to get to your work. And ofcourse there is an optimum somewhere. An SUV has poor visibility as well so people tend to drive these kind of cars  slower as well especially when it gets crowded.

And again: don't underestimate the noise of the tires and how this gets inside the car. It is not easy to notice until you change to quieter tires. For example: I had Michelin Energy Saver tires under two of our cars (due to various circumstances) and when I swapped to softer tires I noticed I could hear the engine again. Now translate that to a much quieter EV... The first car was a loud diesel nearly 20 years ago. The second time 2 or 3 years ago with a Ford Focus (which is already relatively quiet) and I got rid of the Michelin tires before they where worn due to the noise and -more importantely- lack of grip when the temperature started to get in the single digits.

@tszaboo: A Mazda MX5 is not a small car. It looks small because it is relatively low. IMHO it must be fun to drive an MX5 but I can't justify owning one (practicallity and environmental reasons). I have owned a couple of Mazda 323 myself and always found these cars a lot of fun to drive and very forgiving. A bit of understeer doesn't mean the car suddenly goes into a spin.

[mikeselectricstuff]

A higher driving position can also be better. as you can see further ahead & regulate speed better

[nctnico]

A higher driving position can also be better. as you can see further ahead & regulate speed better

True, but if everyone has a higher driving position then the people in the rear can't see anything. If all cars have a similar height, then you can look through the car in front of you. I often find myself spending very little attention to the car in front of me if I can see through it. In the end the driver of the car in front of me will react to what is happening in front; if I can see that too then I can react to that 'event' at the same time.

[james_s]

True, but if everyone has a higher driving position then the people in the rear can't see anything. If all cars have a similar height, then you can look through the car in front of you. I often find myself spending very little attention to the car in front of me if I can see through it. In the end the driver of the car in front of me will react to what is happening in front; if I can see that too then I can react to that 'event' at the same time.

That's the problem I have now, everyone is driving around in these great tall CUVs and when I'm in my station wagon I can't see over or around the stupid things. They're pointlessly tall too, they don't seem to have any more interior space or ground clearance, I don't even know where all the space goes. They're just tall, and when everyone else is driving one people are no better off.

[janoc]

@tszaboo: A Mazda MX5 is not a small car.

I guess you really haven't seen one in person, have you?

Mazda MX-5 is 3915mm long and 1735mm wide.


For comparison:

Nissan Leaf is 4480mm long and 1790mm wide.

BMW i3 (that you have called tiny!) is 4011mm long and 1775mm wide.

Even Zoe is 4087mm long and 1730mm wide!

You can easily check here:
https://www.automobiledimension.com

[MadScientist]

As an owner of a 5 year old 30kwh leaf that has done 250,000km I can say rumours of its battery demise are much exaggerated especially in temperate climates.

Yes I recently lost a second bar but overall range is down only 25km from new , still delivers 150 km daily.

Servicing has been minimal

Second hand values have held up but are reasonable. Extremely comfortable , heated everything etc.

Don’t listen to “ tomorrow’s tech “ arguments , it’s nonsense , if you need it now buy it now. It’s a car not a technology demonstrator.

[MadScientist]

If you would have followed the news around Toyota you would have learned that Toyota is aiming to show a working EV with solid state batteries this year and ramp up production in the next couple of years. No specs on battery & range yet but the first EV model is a SUV like their RAV4.

To paraphrase mr. Churchill , “ you can rely on Toyota to do the right thing, ..... after they’ve tried everything else “

[MadScientist]

Pretty much all used EVs on the market are Leafs that were used as company runabouts, so the car likely has a lot of mileage on it. Leaf didn't have much range to begin with and they are notorious for rapid deterioration of their batteries. So the battery capacity values when new (30kWh) are completely meaningless - it is not uncommon that a 5-7 years old Leaf needs a new battery alr

As an owner of a 5 year leaf with 250,000km on it.
Your comments are simply rubbish , mine just lost its second bar and is down about 10%-12% in range on average , perfectly good car still. Not a single mechanical problem

The “ company leaf “ nonsense was largely first gen leafs and only applied in the U.K.  due to a crazy initial PCP offer.

[richard.cs]

@tszaboo: A Mazda MX5 is not a small car.

I guess you really haven't seen one in person, have you?

Mazda MX-5 is 3915mm long and 1735mm wide.


For comparison:

Nissan Leaf is 4480mm long and 1790mm wide.

BMW i3 (that you have called tiny!) is 4011mm long and 1775mm wide.

Even Zoe is 4087mm long and 1730mm wide!

You can easily check here:
https://www.automobiledimension.com

All of these feel huge compared to my car (the Zoe I drive is technically my girlfriend's). 1967 MGB: 3886 mm long, 1524 mm wide, 1238mm high.  Over time cars have gotten taller and wider much more than they have gotten longer. I like driving the Zoe, but the visibility is similar to all modern cars - severely limited by the thick pillars (that are there to keep you alive if you roll it).

[nctnico]

Pretty much all used EVs on the market are Leafs that were used as company runabouts, so the car likely has a lot of mileage on it. Leaf didn't have much range to begin with and they are notorious for rapid deterioration of their batteries. So the battery capacity values when new (30kWh) are completely meaningless - it is not uncommon that a 5-7 years old Leaf needs a new battery alr

As an owner of a 5 year leaf with 250,000km on it.
Your comments are simply rubbish , mine just lost its second bar and is down about 10%-12% in range on average , perfectly good car still. Not a single mechanical problem

The problem with this statement is that it is just 1 data point. Besides that I'm quite sure the shock absorbers are complete rubbish by now.

[Simon]

why don't you stop polluting the thread with your massive assumptions that have no proof behind them.....

[nctnico]

why don't you stop polluting the thread with your massive assumptions that have no proof behind them.....

Well, if you have been around a bit longer (like me) and owned/driven a couple of cars until they are BER you learn a few things about TCO, maintenance and comfort. One of the things I've learned is that shock absorbers are worn out after 150k kilometers. This has been consistent for all the cars I have owned. Shock absorbers are very important to push the tyres onto the road; IOW make sure to have grip in corners and during emergency braking. It could safe your life or someone else's one day. You can even get uneven tyre wear from bad shock absorbers which means needing to replace tyres sooner than strictly necessary (been there, done that). I usually buy a second hand car with around 150k km on it; nowadays I already factor in needing new shock absorbers into the budget.