Electronics > Power/Renewable Energy/EV's

EV Physics question

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veedub565:
This may be a bit OT but.. Carbon emissions from ICE cars is contributing to global warming, and at some point we're going to run out of dead dinosaur juice. On the face of it EV's are cleaner and more sustainable long term, here's a question though.

You don't get something for nothing, you usually end up having to pay for it somewhere along the line. From start to finish, ICE compared to EV, wouldn't the total energy expended and environmental impact just wind up being the same ?  different ways, but, the same, like in an ashes to ashes dust to dust kind of way.

I'm not having a bash on either format, I'm just curious.

I guess what I'm wondering is, aren't we just going to end up paying for EV's, just the same as we are with ICE, but in a new and different way.

Faringdon:
EVs  will be better when we finally allow windfarms on every street corner, and solarpanels everywhere.
...And our government finds a way of getting huge battery storage stations on the national grid.
Then EVs will literally be driving on sunshine and wind.
But fossil fuel gaffers earn big bucks at the mo, and are thus very powerful...so we may have to wait for our revolution.

Also, fossil fuels are the fuel of war (rocket missiles need them, such missiles cant run on battery).....so countries like having all the fossil fuel infrastructure..because it allows them to be war ready...so keeping fossil fuels seems to make sense, kind of.

TimFox:
The effect of fossil-fuel burning ICEs is not only the heat emission (waste heat from combustion) over and above the energy required to achieve motion, but the chemical emissions (CO2, NOx, etc.)
The waste heat from good electrical motors is far less than the unavoidable waste heat from heat engines.
The chemical emission problem for EVs depends on how the electrical power is generated, from "clean" (solar, wind, nuclear, hydro) through "not-so-bad" (natural gas), through "filthy" (coal).

ejeffrey:

--- Quote from: veedub565 on October 01, 2022, 07:46:07 pm ---You don't get something for nothing, you usually end up having to pay for it somewhere along the line. From start to finish, ICE compared to EV, wouldn't the total energy expended and environmental impact just wind up being the same ?  different ways, but, the same, like in an ashes to ashes dust to dust kind of way.

--- End quote ---

No, it turns out that Karma is not a law of physics.  ICEs and EVs both have environmental costs of course and the exact impact depends on a lot of factors, but there is no "rule" that they have to be equal or similar in any way.  I can't even imagine how someone could think that.

sleemanj:

--- Quote from: veedub565 on October 01, 2022, 07:46:07 pm ---From start to finish, ICE compared to EV, wouldn't the total energy expended and environmental impact just wind up being the same ? 

--- End quote ---

No, why would you think that, I don't understad your reasoning.  They are two fundamentally different technologies.

Like saying "what difference does it make if I eat lettuce, or lasagne, both are food so must be the same!"

To produce and use ICE fuel, you have to extract it from the earth, put it through expensive refining processes, put in additives and so forth, deal with the waste products, ship the fuel around in big ships which themselves burn even dirtier fuel distribute it to retail locations in tanker trucks, fill up vehicles, and burn it producing various rather unpleasant emissions.

To produce and use EV fuel, you have to harvest energy much of which is available in on human scales infinite and clean forms, the main one of which being literally light from a star, feed it through wires, plug in your vehicle to charge some batteries, and convert it into kinetic energy and eventually to heat.

Yes I didn't account for manufacturing of the battery and power stations... or the car, refineries, drilling rigs, ships, emissions control, climate impact, loss of food producing land to biofuels...

This "it's all the same" is a classic, and ridiculous trope of the anti-ev-at-any-cost crowd, "but but but where does your electricity come!" or "but but but making batteries has evironmental impact!" or "but but but what are you going to do when the batteries are worn out!".

It is complete nonsense.




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