How many people really understand energy usage and production?

[Marco]

His analysis is highly misleading, as it misses a huge part of the picture. Electrifying everything means we move to a massively more mineral resource hungry economy.

Minimally ... it's a rounding error. Net zero is on a long enough timescale that replacement mostly happens on write off schedules and a little more grid and electrical motors aren't what's going to drive society off the cliff. Nor large scale thin film PV.

Peak everything is a problem because we're terrible at recycling, but running at that problem a couple percent faster doesn't make it much worse.

[nfmax]

Solar thermal is dead, because it needs to pump water to your roof. It's not weatherproof, it requires so-called moving parts so maintenance. And most of the world has this thing called freezing. I mean it is an OK solution for countries like Greece and most part of Spain.

Most rooftop solar thermal systems pump water glycol to the panels, so freezing is not an issue. Solar thermal has its problems, but this is not one. If you are going to compare systems don't just make up problems that don't exist.

Maintenance costs. My solar thermal has cost more in service and repairs than it has ever saved me, over the last 20 years. Solar PV would be better, but the planning laws have changed and I wouldn't be allowed to put anything on that roof now. The solar DHW is 'grandfathered' in so there it stays until it finally fails beyond repair.

[coppice]

Solar thermal is dead, because it needs to pump water to your roof. It's not weatherproof, it requires so-called moving parts so maintenance. And most of the world has this thing called freezing. I mean it is an OK solution for countries like Greece and most part of Spain.

Most rooftop solar thermal systems pump water glycol to the panels, so freezing is not an issue. Solar thermal has its problems, but this is not one. If you are going to compare systems don't just make up problems that don't exist.

Maintenance costs. My solar thermal has cost more in service and repairs than it has ever saved me, over the last 20 years. Solar PV would be better, but the planning laws have changed and I wouldn't be allowed to put anything on that roof now. The solar DHW is 'grandfathered' in so there it stays until it finally fails beyond repair.

What maintenance issues did you have?

[nfmax]

One pressure gauge, two automatic de-airing vents, one pressure relief valve, one expansion vessel. Plus flush system & new antifreeze in that case.

[.RC.]

It's a worldview-changing insight to realise that once you allow for the dismal energy efficiency of fossil fuel extraction, distribution and combustion, electric alternatives only have to collect and deliver a fraction of the fossil energy in order to deliver most of the replacement.

I have always wondered how energy efficient biofuels are.  By the time the grower, tills the ground (or sprays if zero till), sows the seed, harvests the seed, delivers the seed, then the processor, processes the seed, delivers to the point where the customer gets it.   How much of what they delivered was used up getting it to that point.

I also think a lot of people seem to think their personal use is the end of the matter.   They might use say 100kWh of electricity a month, and they think their life only used that much.  When everything has to be added on.  Even military use which I wonbder how many think of would have to be accounted for, then divided by the population of the country and everyone gets that added to their personal total.

[coppercone2]

I feel the opposite in the end more is better and trying to produce exact accounting only serves to save relatively small amounts of money on something that is considered long term infrastructure.

there is so much bloat in governments they will likely just reduce over spending in some other less critical location if you over spend on energy. Even if you found a precise solution I doubt it would be too useful.

its not like the government even knows WTF to do with the money and there is little chance it will go where you want because there is so many forces at work. Its like 'oh look we got extra budget because of the precise green energy calculations, lets buy a handful of stainless steel park benches and traffic cameras'. Not worth spending free time doing calculations to facilitate this lol

the only safe bet is over production, people always find a use for energy, new industrial process or a gift to a nearby poor country

I bet you they will buy some stainless steel shit you don't need or use if you save em money right now.

[Spar59]

Electric heating based on thermal storage was becoming popular in the UK in the 1970s.

There were a number of methods:

Individual floor-standing block storage heaters, similar in size to a central heating radiator but a bit deeper, one or more fitted in each room that needed heating, heat being stored in refractory bricks which were surrounded by thermal insulation and had dampers to control air convection currents through them to heat the room.

A version similar to the above but usiing a single centrally positioned heat storage core, about the size of a wardrobe heat was distributed from it by blowing air through channels in the core that then went via ducts to grills in the rooms as required.

Using the concrete floor slab as a heat store - saved space but not as controllable as you could not easily prevent heat escaping from it if little or no heat was required.

These schemes were expanding in the era where the propaganda claimed that nuclear energy would be so cheap it would hardly be worth charging for it, they all fell out of popularity as the price of electricity rose and became uncompetitive against gas.

[coppice]

These schemes were expanding in the era where the propaganda claimed that nuclear energy would be so cheap it would hardly be worth charging for it, they all fell out of popularity as the price of electricity rose and became uncompetitive against gas.

Only a couple of idiots, who had never looked at the massive cost of maintaining a grid, ever made the claim that nuclear electricity costs would be extremely low. They were dismissed at the time by people who quoted figures for the distribution grid.

[nctnico]

These schemes were expanding in the era where the propaganda claimed that nuclear energy would be so cheap it would hardly be worth charging for it, they all fell out of popularity as the price of electricity rose and became uncompetitive against gas.

Only a couple of idiots, who had never looked at the massive cost of maintaining a grid, ever made the claim that nuclear electricity costs would be extremely low. They were dismissed at the time by people who quoted figures for the distribution grid.

And yet here we are expanding the grid to support everything going electric...  Currently roughly 30% of my electricity bill consists of distribution costs. The company maintaining the grid is looking to spend about 30 billion euro on extending the grid in the next decade or so in the NL alone. And note I write: extending the grid. They don't do generation at all. Maybe the distribution part of the bill rises to 60%? 75%? these could be realistic numbers.

[coppice]

These schemes were expanding in the era where the propaganda claimed that nuclear energy would be so cheap it would hardly be worth charging for it, they all fell out of popularity as the price of electricity rose and became uncompetitive against gas.

Only a couple of idiots, who had never looked at the massive cost of maintaining a grid, ever made the claim that nuclear electricity costs would be extremely low. They were dismissed at the time by people who quoted figures for the distribution grid.

And yet here we are expanding the grid to support everything going electric...  Currently roughly 30% of my electricity bill consists of distribution costs. The company maintaining the grid is looking to spend about 30 billion euro on the grid in the next decade or so in the NL alone.

I think they will be spending a lot more than that. 30 billion probably deals with the backbone of the grid, but the tributaries along residential streets were sized for much less consumption that they are likely to see in the future. The last mile replacement costs are going to be staggering.