Is this company a good future investment? Altis Motor Vehicles

[ChrisGreece52]

Hello everyone,

Not looking for financial advice here, I just wanted to get your opinion on this company I found, through an add on Instagram.

From what they have posted on their website, they have raised 2.4$ from two crowdfunding campaigns they run.

They are trying to raise 25m$ in total for the implementation of their developed electric battery technology in a prototype electric truck.

The founding team seems to be very legit though....

https://www.invest.atlismotorvehicles.com/

Oh and I am not affiliated to them in any way just curious 

[ataradov]

I found, through an add on Instagram.

Is not that enough to not look any further?

What serious company would look for investors though ads on instagram?

This is a scam to extract small sums of money from a lot of "investors".

All their numbers are laughably small by modern standards. Even if they have some sort of a product,they will be eaten alive. If somebody bothers to buy them, it will be the best case scenario.

Also, who puts area of the facility as one of the leading stats about the company? In what world that is relevant? Anyone can rent a warehouse.

[ChrisGreece52]

Thanks for your input, it seemed a bit weird to find them advertising on social media for investors.

On the other hand though when I read though the founding teams linked in profiles revealed that they had experience in the automotive industry or engineering in general.

I posted the question because contrary to the  startups that Dave roasts from time to time, this one seems to be legit and run by people with experience in the field.

[wilfred]

Companies fail when they run out of money. How well can they raise funds is the key question. Look at the big failures. They're big failures precisely because they were good at raising money.

Short answer, probably not.

See if you can decide if Tesla is a good investment. Their success is still far from certain. For now the bankers are willing to convert debt to stock but if that changes and the debt servicing cost gets too much they'll fail too. Tesla is paying down the debt though.

Look for companies with good management. Trust them to hire good engineers. Not the reverse.

[f4eru]

IMHO, much too much vertical integration for a beginning startup.
As a small startup, you want, at the same time, to develop a "different" battery cell, pack, and vehicle ? and this with a much too small budget ?
What can possibly go wrong.......

IPO is a goal.

My approx translation would be:

My goal is to make my small company look nice in marketing so I can sell it riding a wave.

[ChrisGreece52]

Thank you for the interesting comments, you raise some interesting points and to be honest I was not even aware of the details of Tesla, I assumed that they were not even close to having debt.

Also, the website's FAQ section mentions that the company plans to go public eventually.

As for the members, I honestly think that this is a legit engineering team but the argument about the lack of proper management is a strong one.

Even if their product can shake up the market without proper management the company won't be able to raise or manage the investments to get it to market.

[DougSpindler]

I was about to invest in Nikola Trucks about 9 months ago.  They had a 2 billion dollar partnership with GM to build the Badger truck.  Nikola accepted billions of dollars in deposits to produce the Badger truck without ever making a prototype.  The Badger assembly line was supposed to fully up and running last year.  Drone footage taken over months show a vacant lot where the factory is located.  The founder and president of Nikola is a convicted con-man, Trevor Milton, is the next Elizebeth Holmes of Theranos.  Nikola had promo footage of a Nikola vehicle.  The truth is the vehicle was towed to the top of a hill and was coasting, there was no engine in it.

Investing scamming is running rapid right now because of social media.  It’s legal way of stealing people’s money as Trevor Milton and Elizebeth Holmes have proven.  Milton scammed walked away from Nikola with around 2 billion.

You should ask yourself if this truck is soooo good, why haven’t any of the car companies partnered with the company? 
 
https://youtu.be/rnKCVPAKneU

[ChrisGreece52]

Wow, I've seen and heard of the Nikola Truck brand from you guessed it, social media.

This only adds to the arguments made above against backing anything found on Instagram ads!

[nctnico]

Wow, I've seen and heard of the Nikola Truck brand from you guessed it, social media.

This only adds to the arguments made above against backing anything found on Instagram ads!

Due diligence are the magic words here. But it takes knowledge and time to seperate fiction from facts. I you don't have both then it is better to invest in a fund from a reputable bank or investment firm and set a risk profile you feel comfortable with.

[DougSpindler]

nctnico if you looked at Nikola 9 months you would have thought they had a very good business plan, funds from investors, and a long list of customers.  They really had a good compelling story which is why GM invested 2 billion dollars.  As I said, I was about to invest in the company.  But once the Hindenburg report came out showing Nikola used a truck with no engine coasting down a hill, and the president of Nikola's younger brother, who just a year earlier was concrete finisher was now the chief hydrogen power scientist things didn't look so good.  One would have to think GM before committing to a 2 billion dollar deal would have done their due diligence.  But like Elizabeth Holmes and Theranos, Trevor Milton was able to dupe everyone walking away with nearly 2 billion dollars. Last month he pocketed another 49 million.

Even when one does their due diligence it's hard to know if the company you are investing in will be a Theranos, Apple, Nikola or Tesla.  Apple and Tesla were both on the verge of bankruptcy.  And just because you are a big company like Kodak and developed the first digital camera doesn't mean you can't go bankrupt.   

Right now the investment scammers are everywhere.  They are able to prey on people like never before thanks to social media.  Then you have criminal gangs in foreign countries whose business is creating fake investments and scamming people out of their hard earned money.

[nctnico]

nctnico if you looked at Nikola 9 months you would have thought they had a very good business plan, funds from investors, and a long list of customers.  They really had a good compelling story which is why GM invested 2 billion dollars.

Actually... GM never invested 2 billion dollars ( https://techcrunch.com/2020/11/30/nikla-shares-drop-as-gm-pulls-plug-on-investment-deal ). GM backed out of that deal and gave Nikola a deal to use GM's hydrogen fuel cell technology instead.

In the end every startup has a great sounding plan. For that plan to work there needs to be enough capital, capable leadership, a capable product development team and last but not least, a real (potential) customer base.

If you want to know whether a company is viable you have to -for starters- dig into what kind of customers it is targetting and whether the company is offering better value to the customers compared to the competition. Just creating the best product there is, is worth nothing at all.

If it sounds too good to be true, it is too good to be true.

[sandalcandal]

In the end every startup has a great sounding plan. For that plan to work there needs to be enough capital, capable leadership, a capable product development team and last but not least, a real (potential) customer base.

If you want to know whether a company is viable you have to -for starters- dig into what kind of customers it is targetting and whether the company is offering better value to the customers compared to the competition. Just creating the best product there is, is worth nothing at all.

If it sounds too good to be true, it is too good to be true.

I agree with what you're saying here, particularly on the required ingredients for a successful startup, maybe more emphasis on the team part. I also agree with DougSpindler's point that purely looking at business plans and the market opportunity you'd think Nikola looks pretty good, which is why I think they got the investment they did initially. The major failure in assessing Nikola seemed to be lack of background checking on the leadership and team together with absence of critical assessment of Nikola's technological achievements.

The major smoking gun for Nikola was poorly faked claims of in-house hardware. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/renewable-energy/nikola-semi-trucks-better-than-tesla-hydrogen-vs-ev/msg3230872/#msg3230872 I think the faked vehicle demo video is just something more easily understood by a lay audience. However there were signs before then if you look at history leading up to their crash https://electrek.co/guides/nikola-motors/

I think in the case of Altis Motor Vehicles, the fact they are trying to raise through crowd funding (general public) and social media is a big red flag. Particularly for a product as capital intensive to develop as a pickup truck. If a product and company looks good then you can be sure "real" sophisticated and institutional investors would be queuing up to throw money at them. As a company you would definitely prefer the benefits of angel investors, strategic investors or VCs. Crowd funding only makes sense for particularly "cheap" consumer oriented products or as a means of proving traction to "real" investors when there's at least a remote chance of you delivering directly via the crowd funding. The attempt to fund an EV startup venture, particularly for a Pickup Truck not one of those neighbourhood trike golf cart things through the general public seems incongruent.

[DougSpindler]

@sandalcandal I would like to get your thoughts on Theranos/Elizbeth Holmes.  And do you know who her dad is?  VP of Enron.  Remember that scam?  And what would a single women do who is facing the rest of her life in prison?  She marries a 27 year old millionaire, then as the trial is about to get underway she announces to the court she is pregnant.

[sandalcandal]

@sandalcandal I would like to get your thoughts on Theranos/Elizbeth Holmes.  And do you know who her dad is?  VP of Enron.  Remember that scam?  And what would a single women do who is facing the rest of her life in prison?  She marries a 27 year old millionaire, then as the trial is about to get underway she announces to the court she is pregnant.

I don't have particular opinions on Elizbeth Holmes. The media portrayal is of Elizbeth Holmes is someone obsessed with "success" and power above actual "good". Based on known history of her actions and "achievements" I can only conclude the general portrayal of her as a "sociopath" is correct. Elizbeth Holmes' actions are incongruent with goals of benefiting society. They are however congruent with someone whose goals are a grandiose desire for fame and power.

I don't think I have anything particularly contrarian to say about Elizbeth Holmes and Theranos. If you want an "alternative" take on Elizbeth Holmes this video might interest you (not a video I agree with)

This is an attempt to justify the means and the motivation for what is ultimately still destructive fraud. Still somewhat useful in terms of understanding how and why someone could be driven to do what she did.

Edit: Also as to whom her father is. Personal relations can give some insight into likely shared views and attitudes. I'm somewhat hesitant to pass judgement based on family relations however since one doesn't have much choice over the family they are born into. I would make stronger judgement based on relations one engages in voluntarily (such as her husband?).

[DougSpindler]

Thanks for sharing the video.  One has to ask why this investment advisor to the stars is making a video about EH?  He left out several key facts such as, EH’s machine falsely told people they had cancer when they didn’t and told people they didn’t have cancer when they did.  And isn’t the Stanford professor EH hired the one who committed suicide after learning EH was forging his name on legal documents and ruined his reputation?  I’m waiting for his next video about how Adolf Hitler was just misunderstood just like EH.

[sandalcandal]

Thanks for sharing the video.  One has to ask why this investment advisor to the stars is making a video about EH?  He left out several key facts such as, EH’s machine falsely told people they had cancer when they didn’t and told people they didn’t have cancer when they did.  And isn’t the Stanford professor EH hired the one who committed suicide after learning EH was forging his name on legal documents and ruined his reputation?  I’m waiting for his next video about how Adolf Hitler was just misunderstood just like EH.

No doubt this investment advisor is himself a questionable character. Being "President at Jordan Belfort" (THE Wolf of Wall Street) isn't exactly a credential which inspires trust. Again I don't particularly like or trust this person or their videos but it does provide a strong "alternative" perspective which I think is useful for broadening one's own perspective even if you don't actually agree, trust or even believe what is being said.

[DougSpindler]

It’s good to share videos like to show their are people who are distorting the facts so they will examine the facts more closely.  The problem is some people aren’t educated enough tp use or understand critical thinking skills to know when they are being scammed.

[ChrisGreece52]

Exactly, I honestly agree that its not that I would invest in a company without research but some companies make it look like it does not even need research to invest in them.

[sandalcandal]

Exactly, I honestly agree that its not that I would invest in a company without research but some companies make it look like it does not even need research to invest in them.

Unfortunately, it seems there aren't legitimate avenues to invest directly in (early stage) startups with legitimate potential as a general member of the public. You have to be wealthy enough to be an "angel investor" or otherwise have control over institutional investment or be lucky enough to be "friends and family" of the startup. And honestly, that's probably a good thing considering the level of capital and risk involved in startups (and the potential for scams).

[DougSpindler]

I live in California.  Out of all individuals who hoped to strike it rich gold mining any idea how many did… a few.  The people who really got rich sold gold pans, shovel and alcohol.  When silicon rush hit California hit California 100 years later out of the thousands of companies who tried to make any idea how many succeeded?  A few.  Point is it’s not easy to be a Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Larry Ellison, etc.   EH like Trevor Milton were telling a good story to get investors, but that story involved breaking the laws of physics.  What they were peddling was a type of “perpetual motion” machine.   

[nctnico]

This is an attempt to justify the means and the motivation for what is ultimately still destructive fraud. Still somewhat useful in terms of understanding how and why someone could be driven to do what she did.

I didn't watch the video but pressure due to being on the brink of failure can make people do weird & irrational things. I've seen that happen a couple of times from a very short distance.

[sandalcandal]

I live in California.  Out of all individuals who hoped to strike it rich gold mining any idea how many did… a few.  The people who really got rich sold gold pans, shovel and alcohol.  When silicon rush hit California hit California 100 years later out of the thousands of companies who tried to make any idea how many succeeded?  A few.  Point is it’s not easy to be a Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Larry Ellison, etc.   EH like Trevor Milton were telling a good story to get investors, but that story involved breaking the laws of physics.  What they were peddling was a type of “perpetual motion” machine.   

I think in both the case of Theranos and Nikola none of what was being promised "involved breaking the laws of physics" They are both achievable and sensible ideas: highly integrated automated blood testing and hydrogen cell powered road freight. Both ideas have or are being implemented to some level of success by other startups. The fact that the underlying basis is good is what gives these "scams" the ability to become so big. The problem is the people in charge lacked the competence to lead the ventures to success and also were more interested in making off with the money (and attention) through fraud rather than doing the work. By fabricating their achievements and capabilities and misleading investors (committing fraud) they caused a diversion of resources from other companies that may have been able to use those resources to achieve actual good in the world.

This is an attempt to justify the means and the motivation for what is ultimately still destructive fraud. Still somewhat useful in terms of understanding how and why someone could be driven to do what she did.

I didn't watch the video but pressure due to being on the brink of failure can make people do weird & irrational things. I've seen that happen a couple of times from a very short distance.

The video suggests what she was trying to do had a good basis but she was pushed to be extremely ambitious and over promise due to various "supporters" and investors. The video does a good job of highlighting the circumstances Elizabeth Holmes found herself in and the pressure she was placed under. Ultimately there is still initiative on the part of Elizabeth Holmes to place fabricated "success" ahead of actually achieving the company mission and product delivery through outright fraud, misrepresenting key data and company achievements over an extended period (not just spur of the moment). I think there is issue more with what she claimed Theranos HAD achieved rather than what she claimed Theranos (or a similar more competently lead company) COULD achieve. This decision to resort to dishonesty seems to be what most people identify as a "sociopathic personality" but I doubt most people making this judgement are qualified psychologists.

This demonisation (IMO justified) is furthered by her ultimate failure to deliver despite the immense resources she was provided. If she had ultimately delivered something commercially useful (even if it was a under what was promised) then she might be closer to being in a moral grey area. Had she actually the competency in leadership and executive decision making to make the venture succeed then she might be placed in a different class of people by the general consensus.

Not outright disagreeing with nctnico but giving some summary of my interpretation. Having a reason is not having an excuse.

[DougSpindler]

What was left out of the video is EH lied about "her" machine and her killed people and told people they didn't have cancer when they did not.  And told people who had cancer they didn't.  There is a lot to the story the guy in the video intentionally left out of his version of the facts.   

[sandalcandal]

What was left out of the video is EH lied about "her" machine and her killed people and told people they didn't have cancer when they did not.  And told people who had cancer they didn't.  There is a lot to the story the guy in the video intentionally left out of his version of the facts.

What she did was definitely fraud with direct negative impact on people placing trust in her and Theranos; no doubt. My point is that it's not the kind of "breaking the laws of physics" "perpetual motion machine" kind of fraud which can thoroughly be debunked through scientific/technical scrutiny. It is fraud through lies about achievements; achievements which are reachable within the realm of reality, just not by them.

Edit: The ability to detect this kind of fraud requires slipping past attempts to obscure the truth and then in-depth technical awareness to realise there is an incongruence.

[DougSpindler]

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https://electrameccanica.com/product/solo-reservation/