Is this company a good future investment? Altis Motor Vehicles

[DougSpindler]

What was left out of the video is EH lied about "her" machine and her killed people and told people they didn't have cancer when they did not.  And told people who had cancer they didn't.  There is a lot to the story the guy in the video intentionally left out of his version of the facts.

What she did was definitely fraud with direct negative impact on people placing trust in her and Theranos; no doubt. My point is that it's not the kind of "breaking the laws of physics" "perpetual motion machine" kind of fraud which can thoroughly be debunked through scientific/technical scrutiny. It is fraud through lies about achievements; achievements which are reachable within the realm of reality, just not by them.

Edit: The ability to detect this kind of fraud requires slipping past attempts to obscure the truth and then in-depth technical awareness to realise there is an incongruence.

Have you looked at the technology she was using?  With technology we have what she was "selling" was the equivalent of a medical "perpetual motion" machine.  Remember she said her machine was currently in use in military helicopters on battle fields diagnosing wounded soldiers.  If you take a look at the technology she claimed to have working it would be like saying she had a working perpetual motion machine.

 

[sandalcandal]

What was left out of the video is EH lied about "her" machine and her killed people and told people they didn't have cancer when they did not.  And told people who had cancer they didn't.  There is a lot to the story the guy in the video intentionally left out of his version of the facts.

What she did was definitely fraud with direct negative impact on people placing trust in her and Theranos; no doubt. My point is that it's not the kind of "breaking the laws of physics" "perpetual motion machine" kind of fraud which can thoroughly be debunked through scientific/technical scrutiny. It is fraud through lies about achievements; achievements which are reachable within the realm of reality, just not by them.

Edit: The ability to detect this kind of fraud requires slipping past attempts to obscure the truth and then in-depth technical awareness to realise there is an incongruence.

Have you looked at the technology she was using?  With technology we have what she was "selling" was the equivalent of a medical "perpetual motion" machine.  Remember she said her machine was currently in use in military helicopters on battle fields diagnosing wounded soldiers.  If you take a look at the technology she claimed to have working it would be like saying she had a working perpetual motion machine.

Can you give a link to/source of the actual claim?

AFAIK the technology for pin-prick blood tests exists and has existed since before Theranos. The concept of a highly integrated blood test machine is not impossible or "original" for that matter. Again, the lies are about what Theranos achieved (having it working in military helicopters) not lies claiming to have achieved something that is physically impossible.

[DougSpindler]

@sandalcandal  The pin prick has been around, but the 250 tests EH said could be done with a drop of blood including screening for 200 types of cancer just with any degree for accuracy is not possible.  You need a vial of blood to determine the concentrations of specific proteins.  One drop of blood doesn't give a fair representation.  This is why I say it's similar to a perpetual motion machine.  With the scientific knowledge we have perpetual motion machines and what EH claims her blood testing machine could do are impossible.

[ChrisGreece52]

I had never heard of this company until now. IMHO after just browsing their website for a couple of minutes, they seem more reliable than any of the companies discussed here so far.

As for the test drive, from what I read and understood the 250$ fee does not refer to the test drive itself but the reservation of a vehicle for purchase.

If that is the case and they actually have a production line making these things 250$ seems like a low enough deposit if you really want a thing that looks like a nose on wheels (looking at it from the back is the only thing I see now...)

[nctnico]

@sandalcandal  The pin prick has been around, but the 250 tests EH said could be done with a drop of blood including screening for 200 types of cancer just with any degree for accuracy is not possible.  You need a vial of blood to determine the concentrations of specific proteins.  One drop of blood doesn't give a fair representation.  This is why I say it's similar to a perpetual motion machine.

But it isn't black & white like that. The achieved accuracy, versus sensitivity versus required accuracy is what drives the amount of blood needed. We know none of those so you can't say a machine which can do 200 tests with a single drop of blood is impossible to make. In the R&D world failure is not a sign something is impossible. I visit a building which houses a cluster of hi-tech startups regulary. One of the 'inspirational' texts on one of the walls says: 'I just found 10 000 ways which don't work'.

[DougSpindler]

@sandalcandal  The pin prick has been around, but the 250 tests EH said could be done with a drop of blood including screening for 200 types of cancer just with any degree for accuracy is not possible.  You need a vial of blood to determine the concentrations of specific proteins.  One drop of blood doesn't give a fair representation.  This is why I say it's similar to a perpetual motion machine.

But it isn't black & white like that. The achieved accuracy, versus sensitivity versus required accuracy is what drives the amount of blood needed. We know none of those so you can't say a machine which can do 200 tests with a single drop of blood is impossible to make. In the R&D world failure is not a sign something is impossible. I visit a building which houses a cluster of hi-tech startups regulary. One of the 'inspirational' texts on one of the walls says: 'I just found 10 000 ways which don't work'.

You may have tried 10,000 ways which didn't work to build a perpetual motion machine, but what makes you think there is even one way that would work?  According to the laws of physics it should never work.

[ataradov]

There a a few companies making those 3 wheeled things. They all are ugly as all sin, but there is not much small companies can do here. The reason they pick 3 wheels is that it is not technically a car, it is a motorcycle or whatever lighter classification is applicable in the region. This allows them to bypass a lot of regulations and testing.

Not to say that they are somehow worse because of that, of course.

To me Smart car form factor is much better for a small one-two person vehicle. But adding another wheel would make it a real car.

[nctnico]

@sandalcandal  The pin prick has been around, but the 250 tests EH said could be done with a drop of blood including screening for 200 types of cancer just with any degree for accuracy is not possible.  You need a vial of blood to determine the concentrations of specific proteins.  One drop of blood doesn't give a fair representation.  This is why I say it's similar to a perpetual motion machine.

But it isn't black & white like that. The achieved accuracy, versus sensitivity versus required accuracy is what drives the amount of blood needed. We know none of those so you can't say a machine which can do 200 tests with a single drop of blood is impossible to make. In the R&D world failure is not a sign something is impossible. I visit a building which houses a cluster of hi-tech startups regulary. One of the 'inspirational' texts on one of the walls says: 'I just found 10 000 ways which don't work'.

You may have tried 10,000 ways which didn't work to build a perpetual motion machine, but what makes you think there is even one way that would work?  According to the laws of physics it should never work.

Your analogy with a  perpetual motion machine is totally bonkers as the English would say. Preservation of energy is a pretty simple law of physics. Beyond that it becomes muddy quickly. A good example are analog phone lines. Back in EE school I learned that you can never get more than 9600 baud over a phone line -complete with a solid mathematical proof-. Don't even think about trying to send more through a phone line; you will fail guaranteed! With today's technology you can push tens of megabits/s over a standard phone line.

[station240]

Seems to me this Altis Motor Vehicles is at best an EV technology IP company.
That is make something needed (in this case a fast charger + battery), then wait for a larger company to buy you out.
It's extremely hard to start a new car company from scratch, Tesla was the last one to manage it in the US, should be some others soon.

Could it be another outright scam like Nikola where they paid Bosch to make one prototype for them, it's possible but unlikely anyone would try that again.
Their EV pickup does look a lot like the Rivian one, which is a lot more credible as a company.
Sure they could make an entire car, but sometimes companies do so simply to sell the tech inside, and prove it works.
Is it going to work, that's the $57M question ?

[DougSpindler]

@sandalcandal  The pin prick has been around, but the 250 tests EH said could be done with a drop of blood including screening for 200 types of cancer just with any degree for accuracy is not possible.  You need a vial of blood to determine the concentrations of specific proteins.  One drop of blood doesn't give a fair representation.  This is why I say it's similar to a perpetual motion machine.

But it isn't black & white like that. The achieved accuracy, versus sensitivity versus required accuracy is what drives the amount of blood needed. We know none of those so you can't say a machine which can do 200 tests with a single drop of blood is impossible to make. In the R&D world failure is not a sign something is impossible. I visit a building which houses a cluster of hi-tech startups regulary. One of the 'inspirational' texts on one of the walls says: 'I just found 10 000 ways which don't work'.

You may have tried 10,000 ways which didn't work to build a perpetual motion machine, but what makes you think there is even one way that would work?  According to the laws of physics it should never work.

Your analogy with a  perpetual motion machine is totally bonkers as the English would say. Preservation of energy is a pretty simple law of physics. Beyond that it becomes muddy quickly. A good example are analog phone lines. Back in EE school I learned that you can never get more than 9600 baud over a phone line -complete with a solid mathematical proof-. Don't even think about trying to send more through a phone line; you will fail guaranteed! With today's technology you can push tens of megabits/s over a standard phone line.

I realize it’s a terrible comparison.  But in physics there are laws and theories.  In biology/ medicine it’s all theories.  I was trying to relate a law in physics to a theory in biology.  Just as a perpetual motion machine violates the laws of physics EH’s machine “violates” the theories of biology.  Point being if someone told you they had a perpetual motion machine you would immediately doubt their claim. With EH the claims she was making with her machine and the amount of blood where immediately doubted by people who know bio-medical technology.  As Carl Sagan said, “ extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”.     

[DougSpindler]

Rivian Is suppose to start delivering next week.  If they deliver, they beat Nikola/Badger, Tesla/Cybertruck and Ford to market.  There is a market for EV trucks, question is can a company make money and stay in business?  Rivian Is saying they are rolling out 3,200 charging stations.  Have they installed any yet? 

[nctnico]

Rivian Is suppose to start delivering next week.  If they deliver, they beat Nikola/Badger, Tesla/Cybertruck and Ford to market.  There is a market for EV trucks, question is can a company make money and stay in business?  Rivian Is saying they are rolling out 3,200 charging stations.  Have they installed any yet?

Actually Rivian has working cars for a while now. Look up the TV series 'Long way up' with Ewan McGregor to see some prototypes in action.

[DougSpindler]

Rivian Is suppose to start delivering next week.  If they deliver, they beat Nikola/Badger, Tesla/Cybertruck and Ford to market.  There is a market for EV trucks, question is can a company make money and stay in business?  Rivian Is saying they are rolling out 3,200 charging stations.  Have they installed any yet?

Actually Rivian has working cars for a while now. Look up the TV series 'Long way up' with Ewan McGregor to see some prototypes in action.

Prototypes can be fixed between takes.  Nikola had a prototype of their semi truck.  Wonder how they will do in a consumer market.

[nctnico]

Rivian Is suppose to start delivering next week.  If they deliver, they beat Nikola/Badger, Tesla/Cybertruck and Ford to market.  There is a market for EV trucks, question is can a company make money and stay in business?  Rivian Is saying they are rolling out 3,200 charging stations.  Have they installed any yet?

Actually Rivian has working cars for a while now. Look up the TV series 'Long way up' with Ewan McGregor to see some prototypes in action.

Prototypes can be fixed between takes.  Nikola had a prototype of their semi truck.  Wonder how they will do in a consumer market.

Just watch the TV series before digging your hole deeper. They drive from the southern part of South America to Los Angeles.

[DougSpindler]

Rivian Is suppose to start delivering next week.  If they deliver, they beat Nikola/Badger, Tesla/Cybertruck and Ford to market.  There is a market for EV trucks, question is can a company make money and stay in business?  Rivian Is saying they are rolling out 3,200 charging stations.  Have they installed any yet?

Actually Rivian has working cars for a while now. Look up the TV series 'Long way up' with Ewan McGregor to see some prototypes in action.

Prototypes can be fixed between takes.  Nikola had a prototype of their semi truck.  Wonder how they will do in a consumer market.

Just watch the TV series before digging your hole deeper. They drive from the southern part of South America to Los Angeles.

Haven't seen the show, but sounds interesting.  How do they charge the batteries.

[nctnico]

Any which way they can  Although they admit at the end of the 2nd episode that they are afraid they are making a documentary about range anxiety instead of a travel documentary about a great journey through a lesser travelled part of the world. Ewan McGregor and his motor cycling friend have done 2 trips (long way round and long way down) in the past which IMHO are well worth watching.

[DougSpindler]

Any which way they can  Although they admit at the end of the 2nd episode that they are afraid they are making a documentary about range anxiety instead of a travel documentary about a great journey through a lesser travelled part of the world. Ewan McGregor and his motor cycling friend have done 2 trips (long way round and long way down) in the past which IMHO are well worth watching.

Seems to me there would not be enough charging stations in South America.  (But what do I know.)

[maginnovision]

Rivian Is suppose to start delivering next week.  If they deliver, they beat Nikola/Badger, Tesla/Cybertruck and Ford to market.  There is a market for EV trucks, question is can a company make money and stay in business?  Rivian Is saying they are rolling out 3,200 charging stations.  Have they installed any yet?

Actually Rivian has working cars for a while now. Look up the TV series 'Long way up' with Ewan McGregor to see some prototypes in action.

Two of my friends work for Rivian in R&D. They seem ok but realistically the Ford truck is the one to beat. Rivians are doing sub 3 second 0-60's, they do well off road and on. No idea about real reliability yet but I'm told the suspension could be a problem.

[DougSpindler]

From the promo video it looks like the Rivian is more an off road vehicle than a work vehicle.  Looked at getting a Ford at the local dealership and they want a cash deposit, and it's about a year's wait. 

What about the sarcastically Badger?

[vk6zgo]

I was about to invest in Nikola Trucks about 9 months ago.  They had a 2 billion dollar partnership with GM to build the Badger truck.  Nikola accepted billions of dollars in deposits to produce the Badger truck without ever making a prototype.  The Badger assembly line was supposed to fully up and running last year.  Drone footage taken over months show a vacant lot where the factory is located.  The founder and president of Nikola is a convicted con-man, Trevor Milton, is the next Elizebeth Holmes of Theranos.  Nikola had promo footage of a Nikola vehicle.  The truth is the vehicle was towed to the top of a hill and was coasting, there was no engine in it.

Investing scamming is running rapid right now because of social media.  It’s legal way of stealing people’s money as Trevor Milton and Elizebeth Holmes have proven.  Milton scammed walked away from Nikola with around 2 billion.

You should ask yourself if this truck is soooo good, why haven’t any of the car companies partnered with the company? 
 
https://youtu.be/rnKCVPAKneU

If Nikola really did have a partnership with GM, then they conned a major automaker.
This only confirms my already jaundiced view of the competency of GM management, & if they got scammed it warms my old heart!

After bleeding billions over the years from the Australian taxpayer to "support Australian auto manufacturing", GM stopped local production of Holdens .

This was going to be great, as they wouldn't have to support, "lazy, overpaid, Australian workers" any more, could import cars from "more efficient countries" &  rebadge them as Holdens----surely, that would cause a great turnaround in their fortunes in this country.

Well, they couldn't even do that!
After a year or so they dumped the "Holden" name, & disappeared from the market-----I wouldn't know where to buy a GM product in Oz now!

Ford & Toyota shut down local production, too, but to their credit, they stayed in the market.

[vk6zgo]

@sandalcandal  The pin prick has been around, but the 250 tests EH said could be done with a drop of blood including screening for 200 types of cancer just with any degree for accuracy is not possible.  You need a vial of blood to determine the concentrations of specific proteins.  One drop of blood doesn't give a fair representation.  This is why I say it's similar to a perpetual motion machine.

But it isn't black & white like that. The achieved accuracy, versus sensitivity versus required accuracy is what drives the amount of blood needed. We know none of those so you can't say a machine which can do 200 tests with a single drop of blood is impossible to make. In the R&D world failure is not a sign something is impossible. I visit a building which houses a cluster of hi-tech startups regulary. One of the 'inspirational' texts on one of the walls says: 'I just found 10 000 ways which don't work'.

You may have tried 10,000 ways which didn't work to build a perpetual motion machine, but what makes you think there is even one way that would work?  According to the laws of physics it should never work.

Your analogy with a  perpetual motion machine is totally bonkers as the English would say. Preservation of energy is a pretty simple law of physics. Beyond that it becomes muddy quickly. A good example are analog phone lines. Back in EE school I learned that you can never get more than 9600 baud over a phone line -complete with a solid mathematical proof-. Don't even think about trying to send more through a phone line; you will fail guaranteed! With today's technology you can push tens of megabits/s over a standard phone line.

Back in the late 1950s, the old Oz PMG's Dept fed analog video through "phone lines" between Melbourne & Sydney.
It was crappy & noisy, but useable ---certainly better than "kines" off 405 line, or even 525 line TV.
It was regarded as just an "engineering curiosity" & was never used practically.

[DougSpindler]

Are you aware that the chip shortage as shutdown 4 automobile production lines in the US?  To rent a car in popular cities in the US one has to book 4 months in advance.  People who phrased new cars in the past couple of years are selling their used car for more money than they paid for it. 

As for GM, they did the same thing in the US.  Why would the people of Oz expect a for profit company not to make false promises to take free Oz money?

 

[vk6zgo]

Are you aware that the chip shortage as shutdown 4 automobile production lines in the US?  To rent a car in popular cities in the US one has to book 4 months in advance.  People who phrased new cars in the past couple of years are selling their used car for more money than they paid for it. 

As for GM, they did the same thing in the US.  Why would the people of Oz expect a for profit company not to make false promises to take free Oz money?

It's not about them being a "for profit" company---it's just a matter of their incompetence & meddling with a
supposedly independently managed subsiduary over decades.
Vauxhall in the UK has gone in the same manner, & they sold off Opel.

As I said above, they couldn't even make a success of selling imported cars in the short term, so gave up & "pulled the plug".

[DougSpindler]

Are you aware that the chip shortage as shutdown 4 automobile production lines in the US?  To rent a car in popular cities in the US one has to book 4 months in advance.  People who phrased new cars in the past couple of years are selling their used car for more money than they paid for it. 

As for GM, they did the same thing in the US.  Why would the people of Oz expect a for profit company not to make false promises to take free Oz money?

It's not about them being a "for profit" company---it's just a matter of their incompetence & meddling with a
supposedly independently managed subsiduary over decades.
Vauxhall in the UK has gone in the same manner, & they sold off Opel.

As I said above, they couldn't even make a success of selling imported cars in the short term, so gave up & "pulled the plug".

How can you say it's not about the profits....  it's all about the profits.  You guys were not buying GM-Holden cars so profits are down.  If you are trying to make money why would you keep something that's loosing money?  You know if you drove on the right side of the road you would make it easier for GM to make more money and they would return.  But you folks have be different living below the equator in the land of Oz.

[DougSpindler]

Take a look at Nikola Trucks Trevor Milton and Theranos's Elizabeth Holmes.