It's official, New York State almost banned gas heating in new construction

[nctnico]

Also, low flow temperatures are why hydronics need to be going the way of the dodo.

For truly modern housing hydronic floor/ceiling heating can put enough power into the room even at 35 degrees water temperature ... forced air won't be able to win much COP wise.

Underfloor heating is a serviceability nightmare. Leave it to bathrooms. Bonus of forced air: You get cooling! For once, the Americans are on to something.

You don't need to service underfloor heating. It is just pipes running through the floor.

[Monkeh]

Also, low flow temperatures are why hydronics need to be going the way of the dodo.

For truly modern housing hydronic floor/ceiling heating can put enough power into the room even at 35 degrees water temperature ... forced air won't be able to win much COP wise.

Underfloor heating is a serviceability nightmare. Leave it to bathrooms. Bonus of forced air: You get cooling! For once, the Americans are on to something.

You don't need to service underfloor heating. It is just pipes running through the floor.

And when you need access under the floor? Wait, don't tell me.. you cut a hole in the ceiling and have to replaster and paint the entire thing?

[nctnico]

Why would you need access under the floor? Over here floors are made from pre-fabricated concrete slabs. There is nothing that needs accessing.

[Monkeh]

Why would you need access under the floor? Over here floors are made from pre-fabricated concrete slabs. There is nothing that needs accessing.

Because most floors aren't made that way, and services run in them.

[james_s]

It is so infuriating when people parrot the same old "heat pumps don't work in the cold", when that is verifiably false. I'm glad some states simply just force you to do the right thing, since the goals would never be achieved otherwise.

I like heat pumps and use mine when it's not too cold out, but I sure wouldn't want one as my only heat source. I can't run the heat pump on my generator, and that would be true of even a modern super high efficiency unit. They also put out much lower temperature air from the vents than a gas furnace, I like that I can fire up the furnace and make a cold house nice and toasty in a short period. It's nice that you don't mind being forced by the government to do things but I loathe it.

[james_s]

And when you need access under the floor? Wait, don't tell me.. you cut a hole in the ceiling and have to replaster and paint the entire thing?

Well yes, of course, what other option is there? Tear out the carpet or rip up the hardwood and cut into the subfloor? That sounds like a nightmare, it's WAY easier to cut a hole in the sheetrock ceiling, I've never heard of anyone going in through the floor to access the wiring or plumbing in the cavity. You don't replaster and paint the entire thing, you patch it, match the texture if it has any and then use a bit of the paint you hopefully saved for touching up the repair. It's fairly easy. It's not normally necessary to get in there for servicing anything though, we're not permitted to have inaccessible electrical splices or plumbing valves. Anything like that must be accessible without cutting into anything.

[Stray Electron]

Why would you need access under the floor? Over here floors are made from pre-fabricated concrete slabs. There is nothing that needs accessing.

  In floor heating is uncommon in every place that I've been in the US other than California, but I do like it and I wish that it was more widely used.  But FWIW floors (the ground floor) in the US are usually cast in place. I've never seen one that was made from a precast slab. Even in houses that are built with precast walls are built on a cast in place slab and all of their water pipes are run through the attic. In many areas they do install the water supply pipes before casting the floors so they are in the floor but OTOH it's pretty common for the cast floors to settle slightly with time and to crack the pipes and they will develop leaks and it's very difficult and expensive to repair them. A lot of the newer construction runs the water supply pipes through the attic but that's even worse if you have a leak. They're easier to repair but will usually do a lot more damage to the house interior before it is caught and repaired.

   I think that in floor water heating isn't popular in the US mainly because of the known problems  with water systems but OTOH I think that those problems are also usually caused by using shoddy materials and shoddy construction such as not properly packing the soil before casting the concrete floors.

  My daughter just remodeled her 1928 built house in Arlington and she had in floor heating installed in their 2nd story and she loves it!

[Stray Electron]

Those Mitsubishi mini-splits are very good and our house actually has two of them. But them not working below 30F I think that is pretty outdated information from a time before modern japanese mini-splits.

Generator operation - We have tested that and they work fine with small 3 kW gasoline generator. Input is just bridge rectifier with passive PFC it is quite tolerant and the compressor is ramped up slowly so not much inrush.

Lifetime - that is a bit open question still but typically more than 15 years in normal use (nordic region). Maybe longer but there is no data on that. Some units die earlier but rarely before 10 years old that is what we are seeing.

   We've had this Mitsubishi mini-split for less than a year so time will tell. But yes, so far we're very happy with it and if I ever built a new house I would also strongly consider just installing a couple of them instead of a central AC system. 

     In many parts of the US, and in Florida in particular, most people buy based on nothing other than price so junk abounds! We had a lot of trouble trying to get any reliable information about any of the mini-split systems. Most of the mini-splits sold in the US are sold as "DIY" kits that come in a box with absolutely no information. And there are a few dealers around that will sell you a Mitsubishi but when you talk to them you find out that none of them are actually Mitsubishi dealers and they know nothing about the systems. It took me a coupe of weeks of searching to find a dealer that actually carried Mitsubishi products in stock and that used trained installers that had experience with properly installing Mitsubishi systems.

   For anyone that is interested, this is the model that we installed:  MSZ-FH09NA / MUZ-FH09NA.  Here are links to the indoor and outside portions:

   A link to manual for the outdoor part of first system  <https://www.gemaire.com/mitsubishi-muy-gl09na-u2-m-series-9k-btu-h-outdoor-air-conditioning-unit-r410a-muy-gl09na-u2>

  Link to the manual to the indoor portion of the first system <https://www.gemaire.com/mitsubishi-msy-gl09na-u1-m-series-9k-btu-h-wall-mounted-indoor-air-conditioning-unit-r410a-msygl09nau1>

   The manuals are quite good and those and Mitsubishi's reputation for quality are why I decided to go with that system.


   

[Someone]

I've never heard of anyone going in through the floor to access the wiring or plumbing in the cavity.

Well now you have, did that last weekend because it was the easier route in an all timber framed house. These sorts of things are entirely dependent on the specifics, just as stupid as:

Why would you need access under the floor? Over here floors are made from pre-fabricated concrete slabs. There is nothing that needs accessing.

Because most floors aren't made that way, and services run in them.

Citation required! Given the percentage of the population who live in medium to high density buildings (almost universally suspended slab) concrete slab floor might be the most common type, certainly in modern housing.

[Marco]

It's nice that you don't mind being forced by the government to do things but I loathe it.

You aren't mining your own gas, your community allows you to use natural gas ... it's not the fruit of your own labour. Your community can deny it to you, not by force but simply by not providing you with the fruits of their labour. Government is a fruit of the labour of the community, without it no gas would flow at all ... someone's gotta build the roads

Which is not to say force would not be justified here even from a purely libertarian point of view, your actions affect other people's property after all.

[Monkeh]

And when you need access under the floor? Wait, don't tell me.. you cut a hole in the ceiling and have to replaster and paint the entire thing?

Well yes, of course, what other option is there? Tear out the carpet or rip up the hardwood and cut into the subfloor? That sounds like a nightmare, it's WAY easier to cut a hole in the sheetrock ceiling, I've never heard of anyone going in through the floor to access the wiring or plumbing in the cavity. You don't replaster and paint the entire thing, you patch it, match the texture if it has any and then use a bit of the paint you hopefully saved for touching up the repair. It's fairly easy. It's not normally necessary to get in there for servicing anything though, we're not permitted to have inaccessible electrical splices or plumbing valves. Anything like that must be accessible without cutting into anything.

Carpet is easily removed and refitted. I live in a country where hardwood floors are not common. And cutting into the floor is a normal, easy process which is subsequently hidden by the floor covering.
I've seen the results of cutting into ceilings out of laziness. You can spot the difference in paint from across the room, let alone any poor attempt to match say, artex.

Access is necessary if you need to modify things - which you know, people do. Especially when we're talking about housing stock which predates most of us.

Citation required!

< Citation under username. I am talking about houses, however, be unfortunate enough to live in a block of flats and the situation is different - and far worse in every single way.

[tszaboo]

Such political nearsightedness. The issue isn't natural gas. The issue is where you get your natural gas.
You can turn CO2 and H2O into any combination of propane and butane. And you can store gas for as long as you want it as CNG or LNG.
Install more solar power, and turn the excess into gas during the summer. Its easy, and renewable. Thank you for listening to my TED talk.

[Marco]

You can turn CO2 and H2O into any combination of propane and butane.

You can, but it makes hydrogen generation look efficient.

[cdev]

I've herd this from neighbors too, that heat pumps often dont work at all in the winter, for what its worth, thanks for reminding me, I'd forgotten. Temps here are mild compared to Minnesota but there its very cold in the winter, often way down below zero for a long time. the so called "arctic vortex"

Yes, many have AC here but few people have anything different. As they don't work too often. 

   Yes, to a very large degree most AC systems in the US are still cool-only units. New construction in the last ten years or so has started installing heat pumps but they're much more expensive than cool-only systems and in most parts of the US, heat pump simply DO NOT work in the coolest parts of the year so heat pumps are not economically justified.  In addition most US made AC systems (with or without heat pumps) in the US are not very efficient to start with.

   I just installed a Mitsubishi mini-split AC in a house in Florida this past summer and I elected not to buy the version with the heat pump.  It's reliability was lower than a non-heat pump version and it used more power even when you weren't using the heat pump and the cost was considerably more. So even though the house was in Florida which is just about a perfect climate for using a heat pump, I decided not to. 

   From everything that I have read, and I did a LOT of research, heat pumps are only practical when the outside air temperature is above about 30F. They will work somewhat down to about 20F but that's it. I have personally seen the temperature in central Florida get down to 17 degrees twice and down to 13F once. Everywhere north of there gets colder!  Note that most if not ALL, heat pump systems also include electrical resistance (I^2 R)strip heaters so the sellers CLAIM that the system works at colder temperatures and the strip heater will but not the heat pump so there is no efficiency to be gained. And I don't see any point in putting a $12,000 heat pump with a strip heater to replace a $49 heat dish.

   All of that said, I'm extremely pleased with the Mitsubishi mini-split AC system!

    For a couple of data points; the AC only Mitsubishi minisplit cost about $4,400 US installed. The same version with heat pump and strip heater was about $6,500 US.  This past winter the coldest temperature that we saw was about 30F but only for about three days and only at night. We never turned on the main heat and we used one heat dish (about 700 Watts) for a few hours per day in the main part of the house to take the chill off in the mornings for about a week.

Those Mitsubishi mini-splits are very good and our house actually has two of them. But them not working below 30F I think that is pretty outdated information from a time before modern japanese mini-splits. Mitsubishi has models for example the MSZ-RW that work reasonably down to -13 F and somewhat down to -30F. It is quite new model did not find any test report for it but here is graph for the older MSZ-LN. As you can see it puts out twice heat compared to it electrical consumption still at -22F. Problem is output is quite small only 2 kW (input is 1kW) at these temps. Newer MSZ-RW is better in this regard because of it's bigger compressor but unfortunately I did not find any actual grahps.

The strip heater thing it is market specific if it is fitted or not. For the units intended for colder markets (eg nordics) there is no strip heater normally but for units intended for warmer climates I think it is usually fitted. But you can unplug it on the indoor unit control pcb when it starts to annoy you too much.

Cost for the MSZ-RW25 is typically 2300€ installed

Generator operation - We have tested that and they work fine with small 3 kW gasoline generator. Input is just bridge rectifier with passive PFC it is quite tolerant and the compressor is ramped up slowly so not much inrush.

Lifetime - that is a bit open question still but typically more than 15 years in normal use (nordic region). Maybe longer but there is no data on that. Some units die earlier but rarely before 10 years old that is what we are seeing.

I live in a neighborhood of homes that originally were all the same (small) size. Since they were built most of these homes have been upgraded in different ways, many are twice the size now. I think that my house is perhaps one of the most energy efficient, judging by the utility bills and snow melt rate on the roof in the winter. I would say that despite sving a lot more energy than we did in the past, our energy bill has basically doubled in the last two years. I dread to think of how much mkore it would be if we hadnt done everything we could to save electricity. It would be over $400 a month when right now its usually well below that. But, its literally doubled almost.

We mostly heat with gas, and I am dreading the cost of heating with only electricity if it comes to that. Just dreading it because its so much more expensive. I see the country being set up for a big mess, due to the greed of the well connected. We dont have the mild Mediterranean climate in most of the US so people really need adequate heat in the winter. And there is not enough elasticity in wages to support heating with electricity in many communities. In contrast they are reeling from loss of jobs. The media keeps trying to tell people how great the economy is doing but they are not seeing it at all. People are not just starting to complain about how out of touch the media is. Many are really struggling. And now they are unable to drive their cars as much as they need to, because of the rising costs. They dont understand that their wages value is lower. Because they are not moving forward as fast as others they are actually going backwards.

Its my understanding that natural gas is in very high demand in many countries.  Where it is in high demand it costs more, and sells for much more. . Before people wise up to not being able to afford electric heat and start clamoring for cheap gas energy again they want to sell it. But by then, because of ISDS which is new, it will be too late to stop the outflow. People in the coldest parts of the country will be stuck. 

That context is why I first heard about ISDS, in the energy context. A decade ago. The plan is to lock the US into the energy export using ISDS isnt new..

[tszaboo]

You can turn CO2 and H2O into any combination of propane and butane.

You can, but it makes hydrogen generation look efficient.

How many times do we have to debunk this?
Germany is investing 200B EUR into the technology.
It uses existing infrastructure, and wins every renewable discussion because of just that.

[themadhippy]

They just want to sell the LNG because they get so much more for it elsewhere. 

Exactly my thoughts,lets ban gas in the usa ,pretend its for environmental issues,then ship it half way round the world in a nice diesel burning ship and flog it to europe,cant have those pesky commies  making all the money.

[cdev]

They just want to sell the LNG because they get so much more for it elsewhere. 

Exactly my thoughts,lets ban gas in the usa ,pretend its for environmental issues,then ship it half way round the world in a nice diesel burning ship and flog it to europe,cant have those pesky commies  making all the money.

The Russian oligarchs are as far from communist as anybody could be, they have yachts that are worth hundreds of millions of dollars.. The capture and selling off of all the varisus industries made them rich in the 1990s. Energy especially.

The US politicians so envied them. So in the early 90s they started trying to catch up with the so called New Russians in corruption.

The Energy Charter Treaty has been a rats nest of ISDS suits. Of so I hear. Energy is what ISDS suits are about, more than any other thing.

[Marco]

Germany is investing 200B EUR into the technology.

Germany is not investing 200B into power to methane/propane/butane. The little there is uses CO2 from capture from fossil fuel burning ... direct air capture will tank the efficiency even more.

Hydrogen, sure, that's getting big investments.

[cdev]

And when you need access under the floor? Wait, don't tell me.. you cut a hole in the ceiling and have to replaster and paint the entire thing?

Well yes, of course, what other option is there? Tear out the carpet or rip up the hardwood and cut into the subfloor? That sounds like a nightmare, it's WAY easier to cut a hole in the sheetrock ceiling, I've never heard of anyone going in through the floor to access the wiring or plumbing in the cavity. You don't replaster and paint the entire thing, you patch it, match the texture if it has any and then use a bit of the paint you hopefully saved for touching up the repair. It's fairly easy. It's not normally necessary to get in there for servicing anything though, we're not permitted to have inaccessible electrical splices or plumbing valves. Anything like that must be accessible without cutting into anything.

Carpet is easily removed and refitted. I live in a country where hardwood floors are not common. And cutting into the floor is a normal, easy process which is subsequently hidden by the floor covering.
I've seen the results of cutting into ceilings out of laziness. You can spot the difference in paint from across the room, let alone any poor attempt to match say, artex.

Access is necessary if you need to modify things - which you know, people do. Especially when we're talking about housing stock which predates most of us.

Citation required!

< Citation under username. I am talking about houses, however, be unfortunate enough to live in a block of flats and the situation is different - and far worse in every single way.

When those apartment complexes  and neighborhoods were built they were either public housing for GIs returning from World War II. Or private but affordable houses for the rapidly growing middle class we had then. Now almost all of those complexes have been systematically bought up with the intent of soon tearing them down in a huge wave of redevelopment, subsidized by our tax money. Putting people out on the street with condemnation, due to the use of natural gas, it providing an excuse.. They are allegedly obsolete..Successfully being labeled as  Blight.  As New public housing is forbidden by international law, often, because it inhibits housing as investments, the replacement buildings will all be market rate meaning out of the price range of almost the entire country's current people..Its going to be an epic fail, in the way hubris often is.  That all made land insanely expensive, and its going up and up. Almost every single city in the US is going up, many by a lot. More than ever before in history. People cant afford a decent home so many have neglected to have children. This has led oligarchs to fantasize about replacing us with people who do. To protect the value of their investments. Well its better than the waves of arson we had in the 70s and 80s, when some urban landlords were burning their own buildings down for insurance money. There was a real epidemic of that. More recently, it seems we're walking into a trap. People were stupid to withold rent when they lost jobs due to coronavirus. The timing of it all seems suspicious.




...

[themadhippy]

The Russian oligarchs are as far from communist as anybody could be,

compared to your trumpton or bidet,or our doris  and  stammer there commies in the eyes of the western mass media readers and as uncle joe  fish told us the only good commie is one thats dead.

New public housing is forbidden by international law,

[cdev]

Things like solid gold bathroom fixtures make a statement. A $25000 toilet seat on your yacht, for example. These idiot journalists should recognize what it says.

Read up on Article;1:3 "b" and especially "c" of the General Agreement on Trade in Services. It defines what can be considered to be "services supplied in the exercise of governmental authority". Which is a legally defined definition.

The Russian oligarchs are as far from communist as anybody could be,

compared to your trumpton or bidet,or our doris  and  stammer there commies in the eyes of the western mass media readers and as uncle joe  fish told us the only good commie is one thats dead.

New public housing is forbidden by international law,

[themadhippy]

Read up on Article;1:3 "b" and especially "c" of the General Agreement on Trade in Services. I

you mean the scope and definitions section? nothing there says building social housing is illegal.Might want to buy a new tinfoil hat ,the one you got aint working properly

[Nauris]

   I just installed a Mitsubishi mini-split AC in a house in Florida this past summer and I elected not to buy the version with the heat pump.  It's reliability was lower than a non-heat pump version and it used more power even when you weren't using the heat pump and the cost was considerably more. So even though the house was in Florida which is just about a perfect climate for using a heat pump, I decided not to. 

    For a couple of data points; the AC only Mitsubishi minisplit cost about $4,400 US installed. The same version with heat pump and strip heater was about $6,500 US.  This past winter the coldest temperature that we saw was about 30F but only for about three days and only at night. We never turned on the main heat and we used one heat dish (about 700 Watts) for a few hours per day in the main part of the house to take the chill off in the mornings for about a week.

For anyone that is interested, this is the model that we installed:  MSZ-FH09NA / MUZ-FH09NA.

But MSZ-FH09NA / MUZ-FH09NA is rather decent heating-capable unit (without strip heater) if I am reading the spec correctly?

[james_s]

You aren't mining your own gas, your community allows you to use natural gas ... it's not the fruit of your own labour. Your community can deny it to you, not by force but simply by not providing you with the fruits of their labour. Government is a fruit of the labour of the community, without it no gas would flow at all ... someone's gotta build the roads

Which is not to say force would not be justified here even from a purely libertarian point of view, your actions affect other people's property after all.

My "community" is run by people I help to elect, we do not have a dictatorship. If my elected officials try to take away something from me that I want, I will vote for somebody else. It's not like I as a natural gas consumer are some kind of fringe, the vast majority of homes in my region are heated with natural gas.

[f4eru]

That's not a viable situation in the future.