Author Topic: It's official, New York State almost banned gas heating in new construction  (Read 14270 times)

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Offline cdevTopic starter

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in an attempt to get people to switch to electric power only. This will be much more expensive, if they do it.

Many parts of the US are too cold to reasonably expect to be heated with electric power, which costs three or more times as much if used for heat. Why?

Read the fine print in this article to find out how and why New Yorkers narrowly escaped mandated use of electricity only in new construction, construction thats predicted to soar as thousands of postwar natural gas only buildings are torn down in the coming years because they have become obsolete due to LNG export. I think that is what will happen, but I could be wrong. I am basing it on what I know about how redevelopment and eminent domain work, post Kelo. (2006)

A push to export natural gas, the profit, unlike in other countries, does not go to the public. Conversely, many peoples bills may double or triple. According to EIA. Plus they will have to move to new market rate apartments, which may cost them two or three times in rent what they pay now. Housing will likely be in short supply.

In area with lots of multifamily housing the shift will result in a declaration of "blight" for a great deal of multifamily housing and its subsequent redevelopment into full market rate housing. Rents in the newer buildings will be average rents for new construction, (typical rents for US cities are and will have nothing to do with previous rents which were based on rents and the housing CPI. The net effect will be millions of American families may have to move as their buildings are torn down and new buildings replace them, owned by big real estate developers like our former President has always been.

New construction as it has long been, will be immune to rent stabilization laws.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2022, 01:13:17 am by cdev »
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Offline james_s

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Modern heat pumps work really well, even in cold climates. I'm highly skeptical of it being advantageous to use them though in areas where most of the electricity comes from coal. I have a heat pump but I still prefer to use my gas furnace most of the time for heating, the air it puts out is warmer and it's quieter, cost is pretty much a wash at current prices. Love gas for cooking though, I'd never have an electric stove again, even if I had to put in a propane tank.
 

Offline cdevTopic starter

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Would it be feasible to heat with propane?

(Say you were forced to use that or electricity, because natural gas was not an option, because I think thats coming. Everything public is being privatized because it stands in the way of our essential corporations. It occupies space depriving them of the profits they are now entitled to.

What about oil heat? It and coal are what many used before we paid to have our heating system converted toi modern, efficient natural gas..when Americans could still afford the fuel of the rich countries.. It may be forbidden alog with wood heat, as it causes asthma. That much is true, it does. Diesel fumes also lower children's IQs.

 I am wondering if people like me could somehow switch my heating back to the oil that it used when it was built more than five decades ago, if gas becomes too dear or unavailable.. because electricity is just too expensive to heat with.

It really sucks being cold all the time. I know the US sees itself as the new Saudi Arabia and is hoping to come to Europe's rescue and drive Russia out of business, and many hope to switch to wood or coal, but its just fact that we dont have the natural gas reserves to become a big exporter.  They have been lying for decades, overestimating the size of natural gas reserves, to the point where dozens of investment scams are suspected, based on dishonest overestimates of LNG in the ground. Especially for the East Coast fracking industry which is finding that the natural gas wells are running dry. Fracking was plagued with hype from the beginning. For more on this do a search on "Shale Bubble" for the raw facts. And hold on top your money. And heating fuel. So much is fake now you wont believe it unless you read it yourself. Lots of politicians are involved in this natural gas scam.  Read more here: https://shalebubble.org/  Yes, the Marcellus Shale is greatly overestimated and more and more hype is being produced to enable a theft from the nation. Tax money now is being spent to enable propagenda. Its subsidy thats being paid to liars out of our taxes to lie to us in the media. Shame on them.

Russia is much larger than the US is and frankly has more natural gas. Thats just a fact. Its not political. Social Security deprives banks of business, and inhibits migration for work, a huge moneymaker.

Russia should be compensating countries for the damage they are doing, but because of the WTO we basically now cannot boycott countries legally if they are in the WTO. Can we boycvott China for paying workers almost nothing? Of course not. US coprporations would have a shit fit. We created the WTO to prevent boycotts like the ones that successfully changed South Africa. They are against our state religion.

Money.

Its simple common sense, isnt it? That We should not export away the only heat many Americans can afford. The residents of our cities cannot afford to move en masse, either. But its a lot like famines. Famines are a symptom, when they occur of how much lives are valued by society. As jobs are being shifted elsewhere, the resources are too. And so will scarce resources like housing. After all essential workers, wherever they are, have to make enough to live on, to eat. and non workers become a lower priority. A much lower priority as they no longer are essential, not being employed. The resourses, like housing and retirement funds, will go to the essential workers. Whatever promises which were made that prevented this will be broken. As the need for them has vanished. from the owners perspectives. This is almost unspeakably wrong, I know. But as somebody who has been through it myself, I see it coming.

 I see it coming. As Their affordable rents are tied to natural gas being available that is being sold off. So those cheap postwar apatments will be torn down. Soon. Millions of apartments and no other anything will be available due to the need to use electric heat, only. When they move out their entitlement to get a lower rate of rent loses its legal basis. When they , thanks to their perfect credit and cosigners, move into their new $4500 a month apartment. This will mean huge rent increases - The old postwar apartments started out of public housing, which has now been made illegal by GATS. Worldwide. The postwar buildings, still the kind of apartments that more New Yorkers live in than any others depend on huge common building heaters that mostly now depend on natural gas. In theory they could be converted back to poil but that would involve a large enough investment to be unlikely for landlords who in fact are oftgen looking to get out of the landlord business. The apartments now are renting for stabilized rents, a subsidy that few see as such. No they dont realize they are being subsidized. They dont see the thousands of dollars a month they are getting. But when it vanishes they will realize, its huge.

Right now they may pay 2000 a month in rent or less. They are getting a big subsidy for housing and heat.

substantially less than market rate, a subsidy that is worth thousands of dollars a year to the typical urban family, ends. It wont be available in whatever new apartments they rent as that is new construction and it is always free of rent controls to make it more profitable to build.. The average rent in many US cities hovers around $3000/month for a two bedroom apartment. Thats too much for many families without a hefty wage increase. And if they move there wont be jobs that pay as much wherever they move to. They will have to accept wage cuts because their new homes will be in parts of the country that have available housing at rents they can afford. They will also need to learn how to drive (often late in life) buy cars and parking for them (often $300/month or more) and auto insurance. There wont be widely available public transit in cheaper cities, in fact many of them lack public transit. Public Transit is for the richer cities. Poorer cities have much less of it. The US isnt like Europe, well provided with trollies and trains and subways. They were largely bought up, the tracks torn up and converted to deisel busses and roads for private automobiles, leaviing the US with a permanent underclass. The people whop could never afford cars. Who were stuck paying much more of their incomes for groceries sold at double the prices. Wehn public transit was available, companies l;ike GM's Natiopnal City Lines provided it, if passengers like a certain MS. Rosa Parks, exhausted after a long day at work, would be willing to give up their seats when they were demanded. So riding the bus at a tiome when people wanted to relax might subject them to a very large dose of delibertate humilation.

Well, whats best for General Motors, is best for America, they used to say. They should buy cars. In fact, they were not given any choice in the matter. Nor will they be given choices now. They say history repeats itself and that is so very true. Thanks to our media being subsidized by our taxmoney./. To hide whats really happening, a vast displacement of our people. One thats been planned for decades.

Modern heat pumps work really well, even in cold climates. I'm highly skeptical of it being advantageous to use them though in areas where most of the electricity comes from coal. I have a heat pump but I still prefer to use my gas furnace most of the time for heating, the air it puts out is warmer and it's quieter, cost is pretty much a wash at current prices. Love gas for cooking though, I'd never have an electric stove again, even if I had to put in a propane tank.

Is propane bought like that more affordable than heating and cooking with electricity? Every time I have used more electricity the rapid increase in bill makes me stop. And I live in a fairly mild climate state, New Jersey. Winter is short here and the temperatures rarely dip down into the 0's, 10s and 20s like they do in many other states.

Lacking the money to be able to afford that weather due to LNG being exported, and having low incomes thatnonetheless disqualify them from aid.. Low incomes we should know are often framed by legislators as high incomes so make the working poor ineligible for any substantial help. Also now susidies for health care and subsidies for various corona related services which are incredibly expensive unsubsidized, are ending.

I see many older Americans trying to tough it out and failing to manage. Which might mean suffering greatly, having pipes burst or freezing to death in extreme cold or heat.

Of course this is why natural gas and rents were subsidized for so long. But its ending now. The news is avoiding discussing it. But I see huge related problems due to lack of affordability of heat in the winter and AC in the summer. To see this one only has to look at the difficulties of the many people living in vans throughout the country. They have to buy propane in small quantities. Many of these vans lack ventilation, too so are really not very safe to heat with propane.

California, with its astronomical rents may be the best part of the country to live if we continue to export more and more LNG. as far as climate for that reason. I could easily see the cold states as requiring additional expenditures of $300 to $450 permonth to prevent pipes from freezing in winter and similar in summer for AC.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2022, 02:41:19 am by cdev »
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Offline james_s

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I'm too tired to read that whole wall of text, but yes, of course it's feasible to heat with propane, a friend of mine does as do millions of other people. It's much more expensive than natural gas though so about 10 years ago he had a heat pump installed which does most of his heating. Natural gas and electric heat pump have similar running cost here but propane is quite a lot higher.
 

Offline Someone

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Natural gas and electric heat pump have similar running cost here but propane is quite a lot higher.
Yep, thats pretty much it, except that the relative prices of those two energy sources wildly (and illogically) varies even within countries. Equally the price of appliances (including installation) is all over the place, builders/trades love to stick with what they know which has a surprising effect on the local volume/support for different technologies.

Planning/zoning/permit control of household appliances is a pretty heavy handed tool, but sometimes needed when people are being wasteful (Australia has some similar things, even restricting the W/m2 of lighting allowed).

All gas house here, but that made sense at the time of construction, it would be all electric these days.
 

Offline Someone

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Even though heating is not so commonly electrically based, residential cooling usually is AFAIK (electric air conditioning) and if it is somehow energy cost effective to air condition structures maybe 15C below ambient for months out of the year using electricity the same overall electric energy can be used to heat them similarly and the need for both is directly reduced by better insulation / heat exchange conservation.
There was a time when air-conditioner units were cool-only, is that still the case in the US? Even if it is only a small incremental cost increase on the device, given most people (in the US and Australia) take air-conditioning as an essential, getting cheap heating along with that "essential" capital investment makes sense.
 

Offline f4eru

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Fossil fuels are really bad for the environment, and heat pumps have a very good efficiency those days.
Installation of new fossil fuel heating gets forbidden in many parts of Europe too, progressively, and it is the right choice to make.

Offline SilverSolder

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The era of heating homes with fossil fuels has to come to an end...   and it won't happen without some pain, unfortunately.
 

Offline Marco

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Given the current cost of housing I don't see how drilling costs for borehole heat exchangers is all that relevant for most new construction.
 

Offline cdevTopic starter

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Unfortunately, many people live on fixed incomes and cant afford these energy transitions. They may have to move to the tropics to afford the shift. And NY state isnt subtropical. Not anywhere near it.

Fossil fuels are really bad for the environment, and heat pumps have a very good efficiency those days.
Installation of new fossil fuel heating gets forbidden in many parts of Europe too, progressively, and it is the right choice to make.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline Marco

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How does that matter for new homes? There is no transition with sunk costs. A little more mortgage cost a little less monthly power cost, it's a wash.
 

Offline Stray Electron

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There was a time when air-conditioner units were cool-only, is that still the case in the US? Even if it is only a small incremental cost increase on the device, given most people (in the US and Australia) take air-conditioning as an essential, getting cheap heating along with that "essential" capital investment makes sense.

   Yes, to a very large degree most AC systems in the US are still cool-only units. New construction in the last ten years or so has started installing heat pumps but they're much more expensive than cool-only systems and in most parts of the US, heat pump simply DO NOT work in the coolest parts of the year so heat pumps are not economically justified.  In addition most US made AC systems (with or without heat pumps) in the US are not very efficient to start with.

   I just installed a Mitsubishi mini-split AC in a house in Florida this past summer and I elected not to buy the version with the heat pump.  It's reliability was lower than a non-heat pump version and it used more power even when you weren't using the heat pump and the cost was considerably more. So even though the house was in Florida which is just about a perfect climate for using a heat pump, I decided not to. 

   From everything that I have read, and I did a LOT of research, heat pumps are only practical when the outside air temperature is above about 30F. They will work somewhat down to about 20F but that's it. I have personally seen the temperature in central Florida get down to 17 degrees twice and down to 13F once. Everywhere north of there gets colder!  Note that most if not ALL, heat pump systems also include electrical resistance (I^2 R)strip heaters so the sellers CLAIM that the system works at colder temperatures and the strip heater will but not the heat pump so there is no efficiency to be gained. And I don't see any point in putting a $12,000 heat pump with a strip heater to replace a $49 heat dish.

   All of that said, I'm extremely pleased with the Mitsubishi mini-split AC system!

    For a couple of data points; the AC only Mitsubishi minisplit cost about $4,400 US installed. The same version with heat pump and strip heater was about $6,500 US.  This past winter the coldest temperature that we saw was about 30F but only for about three days and only at night. We never turned on the main heat and we used one heat dish (about 700 Watts) for a few hours per day in the main part of the house to take the chill off in the mornings for about a week.
 
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Offline cdevTopic starter

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Marco, so just add a $700 a month heating bill to your palatial mansion's cost, eh? No worries.

Funny, I don't see anybody actually cutting fossil fuels, anywhere, the policies you are espousing would all be nullified by the American push to make all energy policies fuel source agnostic.

The oligarchs money is from the dictatorships on the coast of Africa, who pump and pump and burn and burn, the largest sopurces of CO2 in the world, its likely.

All the oil money is a curse to these countries, a curse of corruption.

The more they make the more they are just pillaging Africa more, and faster. I dont see how selling off the US's last affordable fuel reserves helps the situation, frankly.

They just want it for geopolitical reasons, which are obvious, but not so well thought out. We need to keep the heating cost situation manageable for Americans in the northern Midwest who cant afford to pay more and more on demand, nor can they just move as you seem to be implying, either.

As I brought up, and which is illustrated in dephth on the Shale Bubble site, the pols, who source the propaganda machine, all seem to be in bed with the extractive energy barons,  Ever since we entered Afghanistan its one thing after another. They now have been lying about the fracking yields, in the Marcellus Shale, I'm just saying.. why?  Is it a pump and dump stock market scheme? 

For that matter why do other countries extract far more money in taxes from the "extractive" industries? (The oil and gas industries), while we give them "carte blanche" to steal it all?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2022, 03:27:16 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline cdevTopic starter

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How does that matter for new homes? There is no transition with sunk costs. A little more mortgage cost a little less monthly power cost, it's a wash.

Thisi s the problem with the churner politicians. What about the homeowners and renters? Now youre telling them they must buy all this expensive stuff? Instead of the heat they need, which they have budgeted for. But not if it triples in cost.

Its time to flush the TPP, if it requires the export of LNG, without any flexibility whatwoever, that is the problem, inflexible dirty deals are bad.

Energy agnopsticism means that your arguments claiming that changes that improve energy efficiencywould be implemented, are bunk! This is what experts are saying.

. TISA and TTIP too contain these Trojan Horse clauses.. Escape clauses, so they can lie to our faces.. And they will, especially in the US where people are maximally gullible.

What about the prepay energy meters? Are they the next big thing?

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/energy/energy-supply/get-help-paying-your-bills/you-cant-afford-to-top-up-your-prepayment-meter/
. Flush.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2022, 03:36:17 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Online nctnico

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New homes that are well insulated and have indoor air conditioning (including heat recovery & humidity control) + solar panels can certainly do without gas heating. In the long run it will be worthwhile due to energy savings. It is a shame that they didn't manage to ban gas heating.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2022, 04:35:42 pm by nctnico »
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Offline Marco

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Marco, so just add a $700 a month heating bill to your palatial mansion's cost, eh? No worries.
If you are having new construction made which costs 700$ a month of electricity to heat at COP 4 it better be the size of a palace, or you got screwed.
 

Offline james_s

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Even though heating is not so commonly electrically based, residential cooling usually is AFAIK (electric air conditioning) and if it is somehow energy cost effective to air condition structures maybe 15C below ambient for months out of the year using electricity the same overall electric energy can be used to heat them similarly and the need for both is directly reduced by better insulation / heat exchange conservation.
There was a time when air-conditioner units were cool-only, is that still the case in the US? Even if it is only a small incremental cost increase on the device, given most people (in the US and Australia) take air-conditioning as an essential, getting cheap heating along with that "essential" capital investment makes sense.

Air conditioners are by definition cool-only, if they can heat also they're called heat pumps. Cool-only AC is still very common here, I just put one in my brother's house last fall paired with a high efficiency gas furnace. It's true that a heat pump is just an AC unit with a few extra components but they are considerably more expensive. Sizing of the system is more critical though and a big consideration with a retrofit into an older house is duct sizing, a heat pump requires MUCH more airflow than an older gas or oil furnace.
 
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Offline james_s

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The era of heating homes with fossil fuels has to come to an end...   and it won't happen without some pain, unfortunately.

Eventually perhaps, but we're a long way from that, natural gas is still plentiful in much of the world, and there are other ways to make methane.

Personally I quite like supplemental heating with wood, it is a plentiful, renewable and carbon neutral fuel source in my part of the world, but the politicians have been making it increasingly harder to build a house with a wood stove.
 

Offline Marco

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The UK would need around the UK worth of forest to heat itself with wood.

It really depends on population density if wood is plentiful.
 

Offline james_s

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The UK would need around the UK worth of forest to heat itself with wood.

It really depends on population density if wood is plentiful.

Hence the qualifier "In my part of the world". I also specifically stated supplemental heat, ie using the wood stove on the coldest days, not as the main heat source.
 

Offline themadhippy

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The UK would need around the UK worth of forest to heat itself with wood.
Only government approved wood can be burnt in your government approved wood burner here in the uk ,and if you live in a smoke free zone things get even stricter
 

Offline Zero999

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The UK would need around the UK worth of forest to heat itself with wood.
Only government approved wood can be burnt in your government approved wood burner here in the uk ,and if you live in a smoke free zone things get even stricter
It depends on the burner. and it's not very enforced.
 

Offline themadhippy

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and it's not very enforced.
still early days as it was only introduced in january this year
 

Offline Someone

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From everything that I have read, and I did a LOT of research, heat pumps are only practical when the outside air temperature is above about 30F. They will work somewhat down to about 20F but that's it. I have personally seen the temperature in central Florida get down to 17 degrees twice and down to 13F once. Everywhere north of there gets colder!  Note that most if not ALL, heat pump systems also include electrical resistance (I^2 R)strip heaters so the sellers CLAIM that the system works at colder temperatures and the strip heater will but not the heat pump so there is no efficiency to be gained. And I don't see any point in putting a $12,000 heat pump with a strip heater to replace a $49 heat dish.

All of that said, I'm extremely pleased with the Mitsubishi mini-split AC system!

    For a couple of data points; the AC only Mitsubishi minisplit cost about $4,400 US installed. The same version with heat pump and strip heater was about $6,500 US.  This past winter the coldest temperature that we saw was about 30F but only for about three days and only at night. We never turned on the main heat and we used one heat dish (about 700 Watts) for a few hours per day in the main part of the house to take the chill off in the mornings for about a week.
Thanks for the numbers, seems like the US is an anomaly for pricing of residential reverse cycle HVAC (commercial units dont have such premiums). The technology has been moving quickly to alternative refrigerants, so low temperature operation is becoming limited almost entirely by icing of the heat exchanger. Ground source or defrost cycling can make it practical in freezing climates. Have personally run old/inefficient heat pump HVAC in sub 20F which was the practical limit then, should be a fair bit lower with the newer units that maintain higher COP even below freezing. Again these sorts of things may not be available in your markets due to lack of demand (or ignorance? or protectionism?).

Even though heating is not so commonly electrically based, residential cooling usually is AFAIK (electric air conditioning) and if it is somehow energy cost effective to air condition structures maybe 15C below ambient for months out of the year using electricity the same overall electric energy can be used to heat them similarly and the need for both is directly reduced by better insulation / heat exchange conservation.
There was a time when air-conditioner units were cool-only, is that still the case in the US? Even if it is only a small incremental cost increase on the device, given most people (in the US and Australia) take air-conditioning as an essential, getting cheap heating along with that "essential" capital investment makes sense.
Air conditioners are by definition cool-only, if they can heat also they're called heat pumps. Cool-only AC is still very common here, I just put one in my brother's house last fall paired with a high efficiency gas furnace. It's true that a heat pump is just an AC unit with a few extra components but they are considerably more expensive. Sizing of the system is more critical though and a big consideration with a retrofit into an older house is duct sizing, a heat pump requires MUCH more airflow than an older gas or oil furnace.
Still regional based, to be pedantic air-conditioning includes the case of dehumidification with minimal cooling. Most places air-conditioning is synonymous with cooling, but in Australia cool-only is the exception rather than the norm, so air-conditioning is almost all reverse cycle and cool-only is the one with the extra name.

So I hear reverse cycle is more expensive over there? more than 20% extra? (common cost premium elsewhere in the world) An additional appliance just for heating is a huge expense if its a whole box similar in price, or even half the price (before installation, services, etc).
 
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Offline james_s

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So I hear reverse cycle is more expensive over there? more than 20% extra? (common cost premium elsewhere in the world) An additional appliance just for heating is a huge expense if its a whole box similar in price, or even half the price (before installation, services, etc).

If you want to see the sort of equipment that is available in the US and the prices, a good place to look is https://hvacdirect.com/
I've bought a few systems from them, they mark it up over wholesale of course but it's still typically less than a HVAC company will mark it up. The whole industry here is full of protectionism and BS. Most HVAC trade counters will flat out refuse to sell to an individual and the HVAC message boards absolutely prohibit discussing prices or giving DIY advice, unlike pretty much any other trade.
 


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