Author Topic: It's official, New York State almost banned gas heating in new construction  (Read 14319 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online uer166

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 893
  • Country: us
I 200% agree fossil fuels are a dead end but I'm also 200% against leaving people behind (literally in the cold) who can't afford to change away from fossil fuels.
Make the pricing "progressive"? That is, keep it reasonably cheap for small amounts (determined by average use in an area) but more and more expensive above that.
That doesn't work because people with the lowest incomes have the worst homes and thus need the most heating.

Yeah I would not say that, at least anecdotally. The bigger the place, the bigger the bills. I am paying $500 a month for heating expenses because it's all (non-shared) concrete walls/floor and resistive heating (developer couldn't be arsed to install efficient heating, even though the apartment building roof is covered in solar). A tiny apartment, or a room with shared walls uses a small fraction of this.

Not an attack at you, but I swear some individuals here have an immovable mindset: no matter how much evidence is provided their opinion will not change. It's really baffling to me how people in Canada, Minnesota, and Finland use heat pumps with great success, and individuals in UK claim that somehow their climate is "too cold for heatpumps"  |O
 
The following users thanked this post: Someone, Siwastaja

Offline Someone

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4531
  • Country: au
    • send complaints here
I 200% agree fossil fuels are a dead end but I'm also 200% against leaving people behind (literally in the cold) who can't afford to change away from fossil fuels.
Make the pricing "progressive"? That is, keep it reasonably cheap for small amounts (determined by average use in an area) but more and more expensive above that.
This is the pricing for water in many regions, cheap for the essential quantity, expensive if you want more to water your lawn. But for HVAC (the only life critical electricity use for most people) the amount of energy required varies much more than water use, and is more expensive.

Or you can make it a fundamental part of a residence like much of Russia (traditionally unmetered and/or uncontrollable by the tenant), check out the problems that causes!
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 26907
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
I 200% agree fossil fuels are a dead end but I'm also 200% against leaving people behind (literally in the cold) who can't afford to change away from fossil fuels.
Make the pricing "progressive"? That is, keep it reasonably cheap for small amounts (determined by average use in an area) but more and more expensive above that.
That doesn't work because people with the lowest incomes have the worst homes and thus need the most heating.

Yeah I would not say that, at least anecdotally. The bigger the place, the bigger the bills. I am paying $500 a month for heating expenses because it's all (non-shared) concrete walls/floor and resistive heating (developer couldn't be arsed to install efficient heating, even though the apartment building roof is covered in solar). A tiny apartment, or a room with shared walls uses a small fraction of this.
Over here cheap homes are ususally a home in a row of homes  that where built in the first half of the 1900's as homes for factory workers. Don't be surprised to find single pane windows, no insulation between the inner & outer walls, no insulation in roofs and floors, etc. These leak heat like a sieve. Over here small apartments (in apartment building) are usually much more modern and at least have some form of insulation.

Quote
Not an attack at you, but I swear some individuals here have an immovable mindset: no matter how much evidence is provided their opinion will not change. It's really baffling to me how people in Canada, Minnesota, and Finland use heat pumps with great success, and individuals in UK claim that somehow their climate is "too cold for heatpumps"
This has to do with how well (or not) homes are insulated. I recon that homes in colder climates are way better insulated compared to homes in areas where you could get by with throwing some extra coal in the stove. In the latter case a heatpump won't do you much good. Over here in the NL heatpumps are considered to be unsuitable for older, insufficiently insulated homes as well. The Dutch home owners association (in Dutch: https://www.eigenhuis.nl/energie/maatregelen/duurzaam-verwarmen/warmtepomp/is-mijn-woning-geschikt#/ ) has as a rule of thumb that homes build after 1995 are suitable to be heated by a hybrid (gas + electric) heatpump. An all-electric heatpump is suitable for newer homes or homes with additional insulation.

All in all, the climate is not the problem but the 'just good enough' construction of the homes is.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2022, 12:39:41 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Marco

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6723
  • Country: nl
Going from 1.5 to 3 COP difference between ordinary radiators and forced air radiators makes such a huge difference that just looking at the heatpump and the age of the house is silly. More difference than insulation even.

The abysmal quality of historical installs has created a warped mindset. Government needs to step in and create some regulations and best practices, then heatpumps can be judged on their merit. It's been a wild west.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2022, 01:44:05 pm by Marco »
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 26907
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Going from 1.5 to 3 COP difference between ordinary radiators and forced air radiators makes such a huge difference that just looking at the heatpump and the age of the house is silly. More difference than insulation even.

The abysmal quality of historical installs has created a warped mindset. Government needs to step in and create some regulations and best practices, then heatpumps can be judged on their merit. It's been a wild west.
But even then: are the extra installation costs worth it? Looking at efficiency only is a fools errant. You need to look at cost versus benefit. Also, what the Dutch homeowners association states is a rule of thumb. If you want to know what is best for your own home, then you have to call in an expert. On top of that, if heatpumps are poorly installed, then they won't bring the maximum improvement. It is likely that that is being factored in as well.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Marco

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6723
  • Country: nl
But even then: are the extra installation costs worth it?

Individually not at the moment with historic gas prices. But assuming the government wants to meet it emission targets there are only two alternatives, conversion to hydrogen burning and heatpumps and I think heatpumps are more realistic. There's not a lot of time to waste either.

Russian gas independence might be an even more pressing problem, historic gas prices might become entirely historic.
 

Offline cdevTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • !
  • Posts: 7350
  • Country: 00
Where does the energy come from?

 heat pumps dont actually create any energy.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 26907
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
But even then: are the extra installation costs worth it?

Individually not at the moment with historic gas prices. But assuming the government wants to meet it emission targets there are only two alternatives, conversion to hydrogen burning and heatpumps and I think heatpumps are more realistic. There's not a lot of time to waste either.
Either require massive changes to the infrastructure. IOW: it is not realistic to think that natural gas can be abandoned this decade. Multiple things need to move forward including hydrogen and better insulation.
 
« Last Edit: April 27, 2022, 10:03:01 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline cdevTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • !
  • Posts: 7350
  • Country: 00
I think that people cant afford the switch to electricity.. Especially in the north central US. Europeans perhaps are used to the higher prices and taxes.. Energy poverty is quite common in Europe, where its as common as large debt for student loans in the US.


There are large parts of the US where people depend on natural gas being available and affordable. .

They are going to be tearing down the US affordable housing in cities. And many people who cant afford to move will have to move. Their cheap apartments are going to vanish. To redevelopment.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2022, 10:19:01 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 26907
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
I think that people cant afford the switch to electricity.. Especially in the north central US. Europeans perhaps are used to the higher prices and taxes.. Energy poverty is quite common in Europe, where its as common as large debt for student loans in the US.

There are large parts of the US where people depend on natural gas being available and affordable. .
Just like in the US, it also depends highly on where people live in Europe. Only problem is that there are 3 times more people in Europe compared to the US living on approx. the same amount of land.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline cdevTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • !
  • Posts: 7350
  • Country: 00
Moving would mean switching to a more recent market rent so new living space further south will be much more expensive and people cant afford to move to it. Its the churning, that the people can't afford. The churners are counting on their churning paying them off...

I think that people cant afford the switch to electricity.. Especially in the north central US. Europeans perhaps are used to the higher prices and taxes.. Energy poverty is quite common in Europe, where its as common as large debt for student loans in the US.

There are large parts of the US where people depend on natural gas being available and affordable. .
Just like in the US, it also depends highly on where people live in Europe. Only problem is that there are 3 times more people in Europe compared to the US living on approx. the same amount of land.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2022, 10:16:18 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline cdevTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • !
  • Posts: 7350
  • Country: 00
3/4 of the US is pretending its middle class when it isnt. Especially urban apartment dwellers/   Realistically, they cant afford city life. If their cheap apartments go away. Thats like a welfare subsidy of thousands of dollars a month. And it depends on cheap natural gas that doesnt exist any more. They are going to have to buy houses which they cant afford. Where? zDon't say Mars because thats ridiculous.  But thats probably what the powers that be will suggest. Putting the poor people in the middle of nowhere. Where they have to pay lots extra for heat and air and water.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2022, 05:47:04 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline Marco

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6723
  • Country: nl
Where does the energy come from?

heat pumps dont actually create any energy.

Nuclear, massively over-provisioned renewables, renewable plus PWh scale storage. Pick your expensive poison.
 
The following users thanked this post: Someone, thm_w

Offline Marco

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6723
  • Country: nl
Either require massive changes to the infrastructure. IOW: it is not realistic to think that natural gas can be abandoned this decade.

I think it's a realistic possibility that both gas and electricity could be rationed next winter in the EU. We're going to have to build next gen infrastructure a lot faster than expected. At completely unrealistic speeds in fact.

Interesting times.
 

Offline Siwastaja

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8178
  • Country: fi
Where does the energy come from?

The Sun. Sun heats up the air (or ground, in case of ground source heatpump; the advantage in ground is, it averages yearly, storing summertime solar into winter, even better than air does). All heatpump does is allow energy flow from colder temperature to hotter temperature. Opposite works passively, "on its own", as you might know. The key is to understand the difference between temperature and energy. It's a bit like voltage vs. energy. Everything which has mass and is at  > -273.15degC stores thermal energy, and it can be harvested! Like you can boost 12V to 24V with a boost converter, transferring energy from the 12V source into 24V, you can totally "boost" -10 degC into 40 degC, there is nothing weird in this physics-wise.

Now as you pull energy from the outdoor air, that air is actually cooling down. That is why those outdoor units have huge fans that process massive volumes of outdoor air.

But, reversing the natural passive heat flow indeed requires some external source of energy. We could call this "pumping energy" or whatever. If our goal is to cool, this energy is literally waste. If we are heating, then we do utilize this waste heat, as well. As a result, if a heatpump uses 1kWh to transfer 3kWh of thermal energy, you can use said heatpump to provide 3kWh of cooling, or 4kWh of heating. Isn't it simple? We did learn this in high school physics lessons, did you not?

From physics, theoretial maximum COP for heating is Th / (Th - Tc) where Th and Tc are hot side and cold side temperatures in Kelvins. Homework for you is to calculate how much heating you could get out of 1kWh of electrical energy, assuming theoretical perfect heatpump, -10degC outside temperature, +20degC room temperature. Don't be surprised at the high number; real heatpumps obviously are much worse.

In strict physical sense, energy is not created, of course. But in practical sense, heatpump "creates" energy, by tapping into the energy stored in Earth's atmosphere, which is replenished by the Sun, but also all the waste energy sources like burning fossils. It literally cools down the atmosphere compared to if the same heating power was supplied by any other mean.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2022, 08:38:14 am by Siwastaja »
 

Offline cdevTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • !
  • Posts: 7350
  • Country: 00
So 40-50 degrees is better than 20 below, thats true. But its still not enough for living decently and heat pumps wont replace natural gas for cooking or hot water.. And they wont have jobs to pay the natural gas bill in advance.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2022, 04:09:14 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline cdevTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • !
  • Posts: 7350
  • Country: 00
Nuclear fission, been there, done that..


Look at the mutations after Chernoobyl.

Where does the energy come from?

heat pumps dont actually create any energy.

Nuclear, massively over-provisioned renewables, renewable plus PWh scale storage. Pick your expensive poison.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline Siwastaja

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8178
  • Country: fi
So 40-50 degrees is better than 20 below, thats true. But its still not enough for living decently and heat pumps wont replace natural gas for cooking or hot water.. And they wont have jobs to pay the natural gas bill in advance.

Of course you can't use heatpumps for cooking. Cooking fundamentally is controlled removal of water from the ingredients. This requires at least 100degC, and usually you want to fry something, so even with good contact to the frying pan, you need at least 150-200 degC. But energy used for cooking is totally negligible in grand scheme of things.

Domestic hot water is already different: heatpumps are definitely able to harvest the free energy. Yearly COP for making DHW, in medium climate like middle Europe, would be something like 2.5, without taking any legionella risk. Investing in a heatpump just to produce DHW and nothing else is unlikely to be financially viable, but nobody's doing that. DHW comes as a side effect when you have a heatpump that heats water (primarily for room heating).

Room heating tends to dominate over DHW, in total energy cost. For room heating, low distribution temperature is the key. COP in excess of 4 is well possible. In pathological cases, the COP might be even lower than what you get for DHW - i.e., something like 1.5 which was mentioned above. But tihs is some kind of absolute worst-case. I don't know if it is relevant at all, probably not.

High distribution temperature is a problem in very poorly insulated houses, because they require high power density - i.e., a lot of heating power per room volume. Assuming we don't want to improve the insulation, this is still totally fixable with large standard radiators, but they would be so big they'd look misproportioned in those small rooms; originally, they used underdimensioned radiators at very high temperatures, which is not suitable for heatpumps. Ignoring retrofit in-floor heating system (assuming people do not want to spend on such "large" renovation) for the sake of the argument, this leaves either accepting the visual change of large radiators, or using fan coil units, either using water as the medium, or not forgetting the trivial case of just installing bog standard split type heatpump (or two). And thus, we have arrived at a solution which just works. If the reason not to do it is aesthetical, then I say, grow up. If it is financial, then increasing energy cost is going to do the trick.

No one ever said a heatpump is just a plug in device which requires no planning and no changes at all. It will require some compromises. But the amount of free, renewable (originally solar) energy harvested is well worth some compromises, IMHO, especially if it is something trivial like needing to have a box in a room which makes a tiny bit of noise.

The strengths of a heatpump are:
* simplicity, small amount of materials needed to build it, no significant amounts of special conflict minerals or similar (maybe the compressor uses rare earth magnets and inverter PCB uses one tantalum cap or whatever)
* the fact it harvests renewable (solar) energy
* the fact that it taps into natural overnight and even seasonal energy storage system

If you only abstract the heatpump as a miracle which multiplies the input power by 3-4, you easily forget where this is coming from, and the seasonal storage point alone is huge. In other words, the Space around us is at -273degC. When the sun shines during day, we do get a lot of solar power, with PV, for example. But when the sun sets, PV production is suddenly zero. But our atmosphere does not suddenly cool to -273degC. No, maybe if it was +10degC during the day, maybe it will be -5degC during the night, thanks to the Earth storing that solar energy. And that stored solar energy, at -5degC, during night, can be tapped into by a heatpump. And this extends into seasonal scale. Even during cold, dark winter days, our Earth still stores the solar energy, providing us with conditions where heatpumps can pump; from air, or in the coldest areas (with <1% World's population), from the ground.

It is not the only significant piece of technology, but it probably has most bang for the buck. Even here in Finland, in cold and dark conditions, a simple 700EUR (2000EUR installed, thanks to the cartel, but still) split type unit can harvest 5000kWh of free energy per year, and most of this during times when it's completely dark, and cold as ****. Compare this to a 5kWp PV installation producing approximately the same amount of energy (5000kWh per year), costing 5000EUR, and producing most of that energy during times when it is least needed. And yet, you should still install PV. You should just install heatpumps even more eagerly.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2022, 05:04:27 pm by Siwastaja »
 

Offline cdevTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • !
  • Posts: 7350
  • Country: 00
Whomever pays the mostfor it gets it without any kind of discrimination. Thats the WTO aw. If people freeze, it has to be because of money only, not nationality or corporate affiliation. Then its simply a "natural calamity" i.e. a natural occurrence; For example, the US had cheap natural gas for 50 years. So most of us will have had no experience with anything like this.

Either require massive changes to the infrastructure. IOW: it is not realistic to think that natural gas can be abandoned this decade.

It wont be abandoned, it will be bought up, probably by other countries that have the money to buy it. Its worth an awful lot right now, whoever buys it is paying a lot. Its not Russian oligarchs making out like bandits, its other oligarchs, as much as them. Its whomever owns the wells and oil companies. Whoever has the energy leases. Its rationed by its cost. Read Hayek on the function of prices in regulating the global economy. Its like an "invisible hand" that sets prices.  Foods too. Commodities of all kinds are subject toi extreme fluctuations in times of scarcity. Our leaders view that as a force for good that naturally regulates their availability. Maltusians especially . Some people really take Malthus too far, I dont think certain kinds of scarcity really naturally exist, I think they are made up. To manipulate prices. For exampole this happened in California several yers ago when it turned out that Enron, a big energy trading company was creating financial instruments based on energy and making huge amounts of illicit money. Thank God they stopped them.


In order to ration natural gas - it would have to be wherever its rationed, already. Wherever.

I think it's a realistic possibility that both gas and electricity could be rationed next winter in the EU. We're going to have to build next gen infrastructure a lot faster than expected. At completely unrealistic speeds in fact.

Think energy storage, many methods of energy storage are fairly well thought out and energy generated during the day from solar can be released at night. Saving a lot of money.

Interesting times.

Don't worry, it wont be abandoned. Whatever natural gas exists it will be sold.

Its just that previously energy was artificially cheaper in some countries. This allowed much housing to exist that isnt efficient. People wont be able to afford the expensive fuels. Its needed where the jobs are. In the communities that can pay for it.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 09:32:28 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 
The following users thanked this post: Someone

Offline SilverSolder

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6126
  • Country: 00
[...] Cooking fundamentally is controlled removal of water from the ingredients. [...]

There's quite a bit more to it than that...  it is chemical reactions on many levels, organic and inorganic!
 

Offline cdevTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • !
  • Posts: 7350
  • Country: 00
I 200% agree fossil fuels are a dead end but I'm also 200% against leaving people behind (literally in the cold) who can't afford to change away from fossil fuels.
Make the pricing "progressive"? That is, keep it reasonably cheap for small amounts (determined by average use in an area) but more and more expensive above that.
That doesn't work because people with the lowest incomes have the worst homes and thus need the most heating.

I have been using an electric heating pad on my lap. That way I dont heat the entire building. We may have to do this , if so we just have to do it. Its better than the alternatives. I'm also sleeping in long underwear. Ive gone most of my life sleeping with minimal clothing, up until now. I think there is a lot about this crisis they arent telling us, and dont plan to discuss with the public.  Who knows?

Some People just dont have the money any more for the most expensive fuels in perhaps some colder climates.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 09:55:42 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline David Hess

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16620
  • Country: us
  • DavidH
I have been using an electric heating pad on my lap. That way I dont heat the entire building. We may have to do this , if so we just have to do it. Its better than the alternatives. I'm also sleeping in long underwear. Ive gone most of my life sleeping with minimal clothing, up until now. I think there is a lot about this crisis they arent telling us, and dont plan to discuss with the public.  Who knows?

I turned my thermostat way down and bought my first electric blanket a couple months ago.
 

Offline metrologist

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2213
  • Country: 00
It's on the plan in my town to outright ban gas, even in existing construction, including residential. That means I would be replacing the stove, water heater, and central furnace.  :(
 

Offline cdevTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • !
  • Posts: 7350
  • Country: 00
It's on the plan in my town to outright ban gas, even in existing construction, including residential. That means I would be replacing the stove, water heater, and central furnace.  :(

Are they putting in prepay meters? Some places have them. You have to pay first, before getting the energy.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6389
  • Country: ca
  • Non-expert

   I just installed a Mitsubishi mini-split AC in a house in Florida this past summer and I elected not to buy the version with the heat pump.  It's reliability was lower than a non-heat pump version and it used more power even when you weren't using the heat pump and the cost was considerably more. So even though the house was in Florida which is just about a perfect climate for using a heat pump, I decided not to. 

    For a couple of data points; the AC only Mitsubishi minisplit cost about $4,400 US installed. The same version with heat pump and strip heater was about $6,500 US.  This past winter the coldest temperature that we saw was about 30F but only for about three days and only at night. We never turned on the main heat and we used one heat dish (about 700 Watts) for a few hours per day in the main part of the house to take the chill off in the mornings for about a week.

For anyone that is interested, this is the model that we installed:  MSZ-FH09NA / MUZ-FH09NA.

But MSZ-FH09NA / MUZ-FH09NA is rather decent heating-capable unit (without strip heater) if I am reading the spec correctly?

Funny, no response to you. That is a heat pump unit.

They do actually sell cool only units: https://www.ecomfort.com/Mitsubishi-MY-GL09NA/p65342.html 9k BTU for $1320
$1524 for the heat pump version: https://www.ecomfort.com/Mitsubishi-MZ-GL09NA/p65347.html

They have the same SEER rating. Would be dumb not to spend an extra $200 to get the heat pump version.
Profile -> Modify profile -> Look and Layout ->  Don't show users' signatures
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf