LED bulbs don't like MSW inverters?

[james_s]

I thought most of those just had a linear regulator. Whatever the case I find the ones with mains frequency flicker unusable. It's bad on 60Hz and must be awful on 50Hz.

[tggzzz]

My solution will be to use some LED strip lights, a 12V lead acid battery, and optionally a small DC-DC converter.

The ones I have are 4.8W/m at 12V, but at 9V they take maybe 1W without losing much brightness. Cut them to length to get any illumination you want.

Example https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/led-strip-lights/8555933

Alternatively buy something like this, but the price is increasing by the week!
https://www.wickes.co.uk/Luceco-Compact-USB-Rechargeable-LED-Work-Light/p/233877
It has 10hr and 3hr modes too.

[IanB]

I find that all LED lights are unusable and give me eyestrain and can trigger migraines. I use only CFL or Incandescent in my bedside table lamp as a result but Incan halogens are getting hard to find.

Most of my lights are on dimmers, and I have found that incan bulbs last nearly forever if you soft start them with a dimmer and run them at reduced brightness. I have replaced maybe one bulb among dozens in 20 years of usage.

That said, I have been trying out some of the latest generation Philips dimmable bulbs and I like them quite a lot. They have a good CRI and if they flicker at all at 120 Hz it is not something I notice.

[james_s]

I find that all LED lights are unusable and give me eyestrain and can trigger migraines. I use only CFL or Incandescent in my bedside table lamp as a result but Incan halogens are getting hard to find.

I have lots of LED bulbs that are quite good. 90+ CRI, incandescent like color, no flicker. I really doubt you'd be able to tell me which is which if I put one in a lamp side by side with an incandescent lamp. It's odd to hear somebody preferring CFL, those were a step in the right direction but I've never heard anyone else accuse them of producing good quality light.

[james_s]

Most of my lights are on dimmers, and I have found that incan bulbs last nearly forever if you soft start them with a dimmer and run them at reduced brightness. I have replaced maybe one bulb among dozens in 20 years of usage.

It's pretty trivial to make an ordinary incandescent bulb last tens of thousands of hours if you reduce the voltage. The problem is that the efficiency falls rapidly so it's a false economy. A lower wattage bulb producing the same amount of light would consume a lot less power and the power costs a lot more than the price of a new bulb. Dimmers are very nice for the ambient effect though, and it is certainly convenient to be able to adjust the brightness. Some LED bulbs do mimic the effect of dimming incandescent but none that I've tried got it quite right.

[IanB]

My solution will be to use some LED strip lights, a 12V lead acid battery, and optionally a small DC-DC converter.

Where I am in USAland the power is quite reliable, so I don't feel I need to make special arrangements as I might if I were in a hurricane zone.

I have just been looking for something convenient to give light for 2-3 hours without advance notice or preparation on the rare occasions that the power might go out. So I'm mainly looking at household items that can be re-purposed at an instant's notice, much like candles in a drawer. I figure I will always have a supply of charged lithium batteries on hand especially since their self-discharge rate is so low, and then it would be handy to have simple lights to plug into them.

Since mains powered lamps don't seem to be successful, I am looking at USB powered lamps.

One curiosity is that the latest USB standards for power delivery allow for 9 V, 12 V, 15 V and higher. So it would be very convenient to have 12 V devices like LED strips that plug into a USB port and negotiate 12 V power delivery. I have not seen any of these yet.

I have seen ideas for a USB powered variable voltage power supply, since the latest PD standard allows the voltage to be set in 50 mV increments. You can plug such a power supply into a USB port and get whatever voltage (and current limit) you want on the output terminals. This seems rather cute.

[IanB]

It's pretty trivial to make an ordinary incandescent bulb last tens of thousands of hours if you reduce the voltage. The problem is that the efficiency falls rapidly so it's a false economy.

It's not about economy, it's about light quality. I find full brightness bulbs to be overwhelmingly bright, so I run all the lights in my house at reduced brightness for a more comfortable feel.

Some LED bulbs do mimic the effect of dimming incandescent but none that I've tried got it quite right.

I am finding the Philips "warm glow" to be quite acceptable substitutes. They don't go all the way down to dull orange like incans can, but at higher brightness levels I can put them side by side with an incan and the color temperature matches well.

[IanB]

Alternatively buy something like this, but the price is increasing by the week!

I guess the fear of power outages this winter is real, then?

[tggzzz]

I find that all LED lights are unusable and give me eyestrain and can trigger migraines. I use only CFL or Incandescent in my bedside table lamp as a result but Incan halogens are getting hard to find.

Most of my lights are on dimmers, and I have found that incan bulbs last nearly forever if you soft start them with a dimmer and run them at reduced brightness. I have replaced maybe one bulb among dozens in 20 years of usage.

That said, I have been trying out some of the latest generation Philips dimmable bulbs and I like them quite a lot. They have a good CRI and if they flicker at all at 120 Hz it is not something I notice.

I forget whether incandescent bulbs' lifetime goes as v^-4 or v^-6

Either way it is irrelevant to the lifetime of LEDs, phosphors, or the components required to run a 3Vdc LED on 240Vac.

[tggzzz]

It's pretty trivial to make an ordinary incandescent bulb last tens of thousands of hours if you reduce the voltage. The problem is that the efficiency falls rapidly so it's a false economy.

It's not about economy, it's about light quality. I find full brightness bulbs to be overwhelmingly bright, so I run all the lights in my house at reduced brightness for a more comfortable feel.

Some LED bulbs do mimic the effect of dimming incandescent but none that I've tried got it quite right.

I am finding the Philips "warm glow" to be quite acceptable substitutes. They don't go all the way down to dull orange like incans can, but at higher brightness levels I can put them side by side with an incan and the color temperature matches well.

Running incandescent bulbs at a lower voltage increases the proportion of inefficient infra red generated.

Better to just use a lower wattage bulb.

[james_s]

It's pretty trivial to make an ordinary incandescent bulb last tens of thousands of hours if you reduce the voltage. The problem is that the efficiency falls rapidly so it's a false economy.

It's not about economy, it's about light quality. I find full brightness bulbs to be overwhelmingly bright, so I run all the lights in my house at reduced brightness for a more comfortable feel.

Some LED bulbs do mimic the effect of dimming incandescent but none that I've tried got it quite right.

I am finding the Philips "warm glow" to be quite acceptable substitutes. They don't go all the way down to dull orange like incans can, but at higher brightness levels I can put them side by side with an incan and the color temperature matches well.

If you want less light, why not just use lower wattage bulbs?

The Philips Hue variable CCT bulbs have the hardware necessary to go down to 2200k, it's a shame they don't have a dimming mode that does that automatically. It would be nice if it could go even lower CCT but they go as low as any I'm aware of.

[tggzzz]

Alternatively buy something like this, but the price is increasing by the week!

I guess the fear of power outages this winter is real, then?

Yup, time to take simple easy precautions.

Just as it is in Texas, which is an "electricity island" as a result of choices made because of political dogma.

Definitely our enemies in Europe's case (Putin). ISTR Texas governors in the US case.

[IanB]

If you want less light, why not just use lower wattage bulbs?

Partly because now and then I want full brightness for detail work, and partly because I like the warmer light from dimmed bulbs.

The Philips Hue variable CCT bulbs have the hardware necessary to go down to 2200k, it's a shame they don't have a dimming mode that does that automatically. It would be nice if it could go even lower CCT but they go as low as any I'm aware of.

I have been trying the regular Philips bulbs (not Hue) which automatically reduce to 2200 K when you dim them. The effect is quite nice.

[IanB]

Those reasons for me but also because 25w and 40w incandescents are impossible to find. In that range only the 12v halogens are available.

I know it's a bit off topic, but I was going to mention in an earlier post that halogens do not take well to dimming. They need to run at full power for the halogen effect to work, or the bulb life may be shortened. So the options are either normal incans or dimmable LEDs. (I don't think dimmable CFLs are very common.)

[themadhippy]

Those reasons for me but also because 25w and 40w incandescents are impossible to find

Theirs a loophole in the uk  for  incandescent lamps,they just need to be  classed as "rough service" ,not sure how they'd hold up being shipped to Australia,but might be worth a look to see if you have a similar loop hole.

[IanB]

As for my contribution to staying on toppic. Maybe you could use a low wattage CFL for this project instead of a LED for the time being just until you figure out what is causing the inefficiencies and get that figured out.

Sure, I have indeed considered that. What happens is the lowest power CFL seems to be a 60 W equivalent with a 13 W power consumption. This works very efficiently on the inverter, but the power consumption is still higher than a 60 W equivalent LED, so it's not quite a win.

If I could find a CFL that uses 9 W or so that would be ideal.

[james_s]

I know it's a bit off topic, but I was going to mention in an earlier post that halogens do not take well to dimming. They need to run at full power for the halogen effect to work, or the bulb life may be shortened. So the options are either normal incans or dimmable LEDs. (I don't think dimmable CFLs are very common.)

They do ok being dimmed, although the lifespan doesn't increase as much as it does with a standard incandescent because of the halogen effect you mention, but the lower filament temperature reduces evaporation the same way. What they don't like is prolonged operation at very low levels. Stage lighting is mostly halogen and that survives dimming. Those dimmable halogen torchier lamps used to be very popular too, but if you left one on all night very dim the tubular bulb would often be black by the morning.

[james_s]

If I could find a CFL that uses 9 W or so that would be ideal.

CFLs that use 9w are quite common here in AU. But then you have to deal with the whole you use 120v thing.

I would be going with a Phillips 5w LED and see how that performs. I've been using one to sprout seeds.

The question is can you get one in your part of the world:

9W CFLs are available here too, although CFLs have been getting less and less common in general and I suspect they will be phased out entirely within a few years. My state is banning fluorescent lamps next year which is annoying as fluorescent lamps are still the best blacklights.

https://www.amazon.com/Compact-Fluorescent-Spiral-Equivalent-Lumens/dp/B071LK167Y/ref=sr_1_5

[IanB]

I would be going with a Phillips 5w LED and see how that performs. I've been using one to sprout seeds.

The question is can you get one in your part of the world:

I have tested a Philips 3.5 W bulb (see image attached).

It draws 3.6 W on the mains, but 8.6 W through the inverter, making it 42% efficient. It's usable, but I fear for its life.

[IanB]

My state is banning fluorescent lamps next year which is annoying as fluorescent lamps are still the best blacklights.

Gah! I just read a news article about California banning fluorescent lamps. I nearly threw up. So much bullshit about saving the world from toxic mercury that is killing people and destroying the planet! Everyone will be so much safer by removing such dangerous articles from circulation 

What about the toxic lead in bullets? How much safer would everyone be if we removed those from circulation?

OK, political rant over.

[IanB]

Any ETA on when we will see pretty temperature graphs? 

When and if I get round to it 

[IanB]

I have incidentally done some tests with USB lights, and concluded that this particular Ryobi RYi150C device also has a very inefficient USB converter 

Some numbers may follow when I have time to assemble them.

[Zero999]

Have you tried 12V LED halogen replacement lamps?
https://www.toolstation.com/lighting/mr16/c1416

The ones I got for my parents' will work off DC, or high frequency electronic transformers, so a modified sine wave should be no problem.

[Zero999]

There are loads of warm white, E14 & E27 LED lamps which will work from 12V to 24V.
https://www.ledkia.com/uk/buy-bombillas-led-e14-convencional/6423-g45-e14-5w-led-bulb-12-24v.html
https://www.12vmonster.com/collections/12v-24v-led-lamps-and-light-bulbs/products/dc-12v-6w-a19-a60-led-filament-vintage-light-bulb-nostalgic-cage-lamp
https://www.amazon.co.uk/E27-Traditional-Equivalent-450Lumen-warmwhite/dp/B0721JPWWF
https://bedazzledledlighting.co.uk/product-category/led-bulbs/es-e27/

[IanB]

There are loads of warm white, E14 & E27 LED lamps which will work from 12V to 24V.
https://www.ledkia.com/uk/buy-bombillas-led-e14-convencional/6423-g45-e14-5w-led-bulb-12-24v.html
https://www.12vmonster.com/collections/12v-24v-led-lamps-and-light-bulbs/products/dc-12v-6w-a19-a60-led-filament-vintage-light-bulb-nostalgic-cage-lamp
https://www.amazon.co.uk/E27-Traditional-Equivalent-450Lumen-warmwhite/dp/B0721JPWWF
https://bedazzledledlighting.co.uk/product-category/led-bulbs/es-e27/

Yes, this is something I will check out. I will see what happens if I try to get 12 V from the USB C PD output of the Ryobi RYi150C thing, though from past experience I am not holding out much hope for the conversion efficiency. It had a very poor efficiency when I measured the 5 V USB output driving a 5 V USB lamp. (See below.)

The best result so far was the Ryobi USB work light PCL662, with a claimed 800 lumens output for an input of 20 V, 445 mA, 8.9 W, for an apparent 90 lumens/W. The disadvantage of this is the light quality is very harsh and industrial. It's OK if it's the only light you have, but it's not very warm or comfortable.

This same PCL662 device also had the best USB conversion efficiency I have seen on its USB output, with an input of 20 V, 294 mA, 5.88 W providing an output of 5.06 V, 980 mA, 4.96 W giving an efficiency of 84%. In contrast, the RYi150C consumed 375 mA for the same output, making the efficiency only 66%.